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View Poll Results: Can you now at least consider that US leaders committed the crime of Aggressive War?
No....there is no evidence that US leaders committed crime of aggresive war 3 27.27%
No....there is some evidence but it is not strong enough to warrant further investigation. 0 0%
I am not convinced, but I want congress to thoroughly investigate possible war crimes evidence 1 9.09%
Bush and Cheney et al, should be impeached and if found guilty, tried as criminals 7 63.64%
Voters: 11. You may not vote on this poll

 
 
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Old 04-27-2007, 09:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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George Tenet's New Book: Is US in Iraq Similar "Aggressive War" Charged at Nuremberg

Real simple....are we "there" yet? Is there compelling evidence, yet....in your mind, that Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney are reasonably suspected of committing the ultimate crime against humanity....the crime of aggressive, pre-emptive war? ....And....IMO....as importantly, do you care if Bush did this...or not?

If you think that the US invasion of Iraq, as Tenet says, was done under false pretenses, with no other alternative to war seriously discussed, what is different about US war against Iraq than the "war of aggression" charged at Nuremberg, in 1945.

Isn't the main practical argument against pre-emption....against aggressive war, the risk that the determination to engage in a war not justified by an imminent threat, is that you might "get it wrong".....that the war was avoidable.....did not have to happen.....in hindsight, could not be justified by the "threat level"....originally below the threshold of "imminent", was confirmed to not be justification for going to war.

Isn't "this case", aggravated by what Tenet and the Downing Street Memos describe....the fact that the decision to go to war was made without even considering alternatives to war, and without concern whether war was even justified by an "imminent threat"?

Quote:
http://www.benferencz.org/arts/87.html
Q: Twenty-seven years old, the Nuremberg trial was your first case. Can you talk a little about what that was like - the pressure, perhaps, the satisfaction of bringing these heinous crimes to closure?

The most impressive thing to me at Nuremberg and in my other experiences in Germany was a complete absence of remorse on the part of the defendants. They argued that they were justified in doing what they did. The simple soldiers argued superiors' orders; the higher ups who were on the policy-making level argued that what they did was in self-defense - that they knew or feared that the Soviet Union was about to attack them and therefore they felt justified in a preemptive first strike. .......

http://www.benferencz.org/arts/89.html

.....Ohlendorf was asked to explain why they had killed all the Jews. Most defendants argued that they were only obeying superior orders. Ohlendorf was much more honest. He said it was necessary in self-defense. Self-defense? Where do you come up with self-defense? Germany attacked all of its neighbors. "Ah, yes", he explained, " we knew that the Soviet Union planned to attack us. And therefore, it was necessary for us to attack them first." (These days we call it "preemption.") "And why did you kill all of the Jews? " "Well, we knew that the Jews were sympathetic to the Bolsheviks, everybody knows that, so, we had to get rid of them too." Question: "And why did you kill thousands of little children? "Well, if they grew up and learned that we had eliminated their parents, they would become enemies of the Reich. So, of course we had to take care of them too. It sounded so natural and logical - to the mass murderer.

It was not persuasive to the three American judges. They carefully considered the doctrine of preemptive self-defense, or anticipatory self-defense, They held, unanimously, that it was not a valid defense that could justify the crimes. If everyone felt they could go out and attack their neighbor, and also kill their children and other perceived enemies, what kind of a world would we have? It was an echo of Justice Jackson's famous phrase that has been quoted here, about not passing the Germans "a poisoned chalice" lest we put it to our own lips as well. Law must apply equally to everyone. Telford Taylor made the closing statement, saying to accept peremptory self-defense as a justification for murder would be as if to say that a man who breaks into a house can then shoot the owner in presumed self-defense. Those who made that argument were found guilty and
were hanged.   click to show 

Let me note another problem that causes concern. Tom Franck will recall the Top Secret Downing Street papers published by the London Times in July 2002. Leading British cabinet members discussing plans for an upcoming war with Iraq concluded that the United States was fixing the facts to match the policy. It seemed clear to them that the US had made up its mind to go to war against Iraq; no matter what. The Americans were determined to bring about a "regime change." When it was noted that doing so by force would be illegal, administration lawyers, adept at finding new interpretations of laws, came up with the argument that preemptive force would be justified as self-defense from an imminent nuclear threat. The UN charter says a nation may defend itself against an armed attack. As far as I can make out, Iraq wasn't engaged in or even planning an armed attack against the United States. So the creative lawyers stretched the law by arguing that since the Security Council of the UN was too politicized, it could be by-passed if necessary. A preemptive war followed.....

Read fascinating spin from foxnooze....after the NY Times story:

Quote:
http://www.newstatesman.com/200505300013
The war before the war

Michael Smith

Published 30 May 2005

Britain and the US carried out a secret bombing campaign against Iraq months before the tanks went over the border in March 2003. Michael Smith pieces together the evidence

Page by relentless page, evidence has been stacking up for many months to show that - despite Tony Blair's denials - the British government signed up for war in Iraq almost a year before the invasion. What most people will not have realised until now, however, was that Britain and the US waged a secret war against Iraq for months before the tanks rolled over the border in March 2003. Documentary evidence and ministerial answers in parliament reveal the existence of a clandestine bombing campaign designed largely to provoke Iraq into taking action that could be used to justify the start of the war.

In the absence of solid legal grounds for war, in other words, the allies tried to bomb Saddam Hussein into providing their casus belli. And when that didn't work they just stepped up the bombing rate, in effect starting the conflict without
telling anyone.   click to show 


The story of the secret air war dovetails neatly with the other evidence from the leaked documents, further demonstrating why, even after the general election, Blair's efforts to dispel the allegations about the background to war and get the country to "move on" seem doomed to fail.

Quote:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle387374.ece
May 1, 2005
The secret Downing Street memo

......C reported on his recent talks in Washington. There was a perceptible shift in attitude. Military action was now seen as inevitable. <b>Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.</b> The NSC had no patience with the UN route, and no enthusiasm for publishing material on the Iraqi regime's record. There was little discussion in Washington of the aftermath after military action.........
It was the briefing paper for the July meeting which stated categorically that "when the Prime Minister discussed Iraq with President Bush at Crawford in April [2002], he said that the UK would support military action to bring about regime change".

The same document also stated bluntly that "regime change per se is not a proper basis for military action under international law" and it was therefore "necessary to create the conditions in which we could legally support military action".

America had none of these problems. It was Washington's view that it could decide for itself whether Saddam was in breach of his obligations to let in weapons inspectors. With British officials holding Blair back, insisting that without UN backing an invasion would be illegal, it would have been extremely convenient for Bush and Rumsfeld if Saddam had retaliated against the bombing offensive, thus giving London and Washington the chance to cry, "He started it!"

The leaked British documents have now found their way into the US political debate. The White House has declined to respond to a letter from 89 US congressmen asking Bush when he and Blair agreed to invade Iraq. The congressmen are now talking about sending a delegation to Britain to try to find out the truth, although heaven alone knows why they think they will get any more change from Blair than they did from Bush. Their concerns are none the less grave ones, for the leaked documents are as damaging to Bush as they are to Blair.

Under the US constitution, only Congress has the power to authorise war, and it did not do so until 11 October. Any military ac-tion to oust Saddam before that point would constitute a serious abuse of power by the president. But there is no reason to suppose that bothered Mr Bush.

Michael Smith writes on defence matters for the Sunday Times
Quote:
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/c...n_of_iraq_2921
Context of 'September 5, 2002: US and British Air Force Conduct Major Assault on Iraqi Defenses'
Quote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../06/wirq06.xml
100 jets join attack on Iraq

By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
Last Updated: 12:38pm BST 06/09/2002 (September 6, 2002)
Page 1 of 3

About 100 American and British aircraft took part in an attack on Iraq's major western air defence installation yesterday in the biggest single operation over the country for four years.

The raid appeared to be a prelude to the type of special forces operations that would have to begin weeks before a possible American-led war. It was launched two days before a war summit between President George W Bush and
Tony Blair in America.   click to show 

Mr Bush, speaking in Louisville, Kentucky, said that, besides having talks with Mr Blair, he would be meeting the leaders of France, Russia, China and Canada over the next few days. He would tell them that "history has called us into action" to oust Saddam Hussein, the president of Iraq.

He said he was looking forward to the talks, but suggested that the US could do the job on its own if need be.

"I am a patient man," he said. "I've got tools; we've got tools at our disposal. We cannot let the world's worst leaders blackmail, threaten, hold freedom-loving nations hostage with the world's worst weapons."
Quote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
Airstrikes In Southern Iraq 'No-Fly' Zone Mount
Attacks' Growing Precision And Scope May Aid Invasion

By Vernon Loeb
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, January 15, 2003; Page A01

U.S. and British warplanes have bombed more than 80 targets in Iraq's southern "no-fly" zone over the past five months, conducting an escalating air war even as U.N. weapons inspections proceed and diplomats look for ways to head off a full-scale war.

The airstrikes have increased not only in number but in sophistication, with pilots using precision-guided bombs to strike what defense officials describe as mobile surface-to-air missiles, air defense radars, command centers, communications facilities and fiber-optic cable repeater stations.

On Monday, the heaviest day of bombing in at least a year, U.S. and British jets for the first time struck five targets, hitting an air defense command site at Tallil, 170 miles southeast of Baghdad, and four repeater stations in southeastern Iraq. Iraq says many of the attacks have been on non-military targets and have resulted in civilian deaths. The Iraqis said six people were injured in Monday's airstrikes, which they said included civilian targets in the southern city of Basra.

U.S. military officials said the attacks are initiated only in response to Iraqi fire. They said the increase mirrors an increase by Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's forces in anti-aircraft and surface-to-air missile attacks on U.S. and British jets. But they acknowledged that military planners are taking full advantage of the opportunity to target Iraq's integrated air defense network for destruction in a systemic fashion that will ease the way for U.S. air and ground forces if President Bush decides war is the only option for
disarming Iraq.   click to show 
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/27/wa...ks&oref=slogin
April 27, 2007
Ex-C.I.A. Chief, in Book, Assails Cheney on Iraq
By SCOTT SHANE and MARK MAZZETTI

WASHINGTON, April 26 — George J. Tenet, the former director of central intelligence, has lashed out against Vice President Dick Cheney and other Bush administration officials in a new book, saying they pushed the country to war in Iraq <h3>without ever conducting a “serious debate” about whether Saddam Hussein posed an imminent threat to the United States.</h3>

The 549-page book, “At the Center of the Storm,” is to be published by HarperCollins on Monday. By turns accusatory, defensive, and modestly self-critical, it is the first detailed account by a member of the president’s inner circle of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, the decision to invade Iraq and the failure to find the unconventional weapons that were a major justification for the war.

“There was never a serious debate that I know of within the administration about the imminence of the Iraqi threat,” Mr. Tenet writes in a devastating judgment that is likely to be debated for many years. <h3>Nor, he adds, “was there ever a significant discussion” about the possibility of containing Iraq without an invasion.</h3>

Mr. Tenet admits that he made his famous “slam dunk” remark about the evidence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. But he argues that the quote was taken out of context and that it had little impact on President Bush’s decision to go to war. He also makes clear his bitter view that the administration made him a scapegoat for the Iraq war.

A copy of the book was purchased at retail price in advance of publication by a reporter for The New York Times. Mr. Tenet described with sarcasm watching an episode of “Meet the Press” last September in which Mr. Cheney twice referred to Mr. Tenet’s “slam dunk” remark as the basis for the decision to go to war.

“I remember watching and thinking, ‘As if you needed me to say ‘slam dunk’ to convince you to go to war with Iraq,’ ” Mr. Tenet writes.

As violence in Iraq spiraled beginning in late 2003, Mr. Tenet writes, “rather than acknowledge responsibility, the administration’s message was: Don’t blame us. George Tenet and the C.I.A. got us into this mess.”

Mr. Tenet takes blame for the flawed 2002 National Intelligence Estimate about Iraq’s weapons programs, calling the episode “one of the lowest moments of my seven-year tenure.” He expresses regret that the document was not more nuanced, but says there was no doubt in his mind at the time that Saddam Hussein possessed unconventional weapons. “In retrospect, we got it wrong partly because the truth was so implausible,” he writes.

Despite such sweeping indictments, Mr. Bush, who in 2004 awarded Mr. Tenet a Presidential Medal of Freedom, is portrayed personally in a largely positive light, with particular praise for the his leadership after the 2001 attacks. “He was absolutely in charge, determined, and directed,” Mr. Tenet writes of the president, whom he describes as a blunt-spoken kindred spirit.

But Mr. Tenet largely endorses the view of administration critics that Mr. Cheney and a handful of Pentagon officials, including Paul D. Wolfowitz and Douglas J. Feith, were focused on Iraq as a threat in late 2001 and 2002 even as Mr. Tenet and the C.I.A. concentrated mostly on Al Qaeda.

Mr. Tenet describes helping to kill a planned speech by Mr. Cheney on the eve of the invasion because its claims of links between Al Qaeda and Iraq went “way beyond what the intelligence shows.”

“Mr. President, we cannot support the speech and it should not be given,” Mr. Tenet wrote that he told Mr. Bush. Mr. Cheney never delivered the remarks.

Mr. Tenet hints at some score-settling in the book. He describes in particular the extraordinary tension between him and Condoleezza Rice, then national security adviser, and her deputy, Stephen J. Hadley, in internal debate over how the president came to say erroneously in his 2003 State of the Union address that Iraq was seeking uranium in Africa.

He describes an episode in 2003, shortly after he issued a statement taking partial responsibility for that error. He said he was invited over for a Sunday afternoon, back-patio lemonade by Colin L. Powell, then secretary of state. Mr. Powell described what Mr. Tenet called “a lively debate” on Air Force One a few days before about whether the White House should continue to support Mr. Tenet as C.I.A. director.

“In the end, the president said yes, and said so publicly,” Mr. Tenet wrote. “But Colin let me know that other officials, particularly the vice president, had quite another view.”

He writes that the controversy over who was to blame for the State of the Union error was the beginning of the end of his tenure. After the finger-pointing between the White House and the C.I.A., he wrote, “My relationship with the administration was forever changed.”

Mr. Tenet also says in the book that he had been “not at all sure I wanted to accept” the Medal of Freedom. He agreed after he saw that the citation “was all about the C.I.A.’s work against terrorism, not Iraq.”

He also expresses skepticism about whether the increase in troops in Iraq will prove successful. “It may have worked more than three years ago,” he wrote. “My fear is that sectarian violence in Iraq has taken on a life of its own and that U.S. forces are becoming more and more irrelevant to the management of that violence.”

Mr. Tenet says he decided to write the memoir in part because the infamous “slam dunk” episode had come to define his tenure at C.I.A.

He gives a detailed account of the episode, which occurred during an Oval Office meeting in December 2002 when the administration was preparing to make public its case for war against Iraq.

During the meeting, the deputy C.I.A. director, John McLaughlin, unveiled a draft of a proposed public presentation that left the group unimpressed. Mr. Tenet recalls that Mr. Bush suggested that they could “add punch” by bringing in lawyers trained to argue cases before a jury.

“I told the president that strengthening the public presentation was a ‘slam dunk,’ a phrase that was later taken completely out of context,” Mr. Tenet writes. “If I had simply said, ‘I’m sure we can do better,’ I wouldn’t be writing this chapter — or maybe even this book.”

Mr. Tenet has spoken rarely in public, and never so caustically, since stepping down in July 2004.

Asked about Mr. Tenet’s assertions, a White House spokesman, Gordon D. Johndroe, defended the prewar deliberations on Thursday. “The president made the decision to remove Saddam Hussein for a number of reasons, mainly the National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq and Saddam Hussein’s own actions, and only after a thorough and lengthy assessment of all available information as well as Congressional authorization,” the spokesman said.

The book recounts C.I.A. efforts to fight Al Qaeda in the years before the Sept. 11 attacks, and Mr. Tenet’s early warnings about Osama bin Laden. He contends that the urgent appeals of the C.I.A. on terrorism received a lukewarm reception at the Bush White House through most of 2001.

“The bureaucracy moved slowly,” and only after the Sept. 11 attacks was the C.I.A. given the counterterrorism powers it had requested earlier in the year.

Mr. Tenet confesses to “a black, black time” two months after the 2001 attacks when, sitting in front of his house in his favorite Adirondack chair, he “just lost it.”

“I thought about all the people who had died and what we had been through in the months since,” he writes. “What am I doing here? Why me?” Mr. Tenet gives a vigorous defense of the C.I.A.’s program to hold captured Qaeda members in secret overseas jails and to question them with harsh techniques, which he does not explicitly describe.

Mr. Tenet expresses puzzlement that, since 2001, Al Qaeda has not sent “suicide bombers to cause chaos in a half-dozen American shopping malls on any given day.”

“I do know one thing in my gut,” he writes. “Al Qaeda is here and waiting.”
Quote:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,268945,00.html
Former CIA Director George Tenet: Al Qaeda is in America

Friday , April 27, 2007

WASHINGTON —
Al Qaeda is in the United States, former CIA Director George Tenet says, and he’s surprised there have not been more attacks on American soil.

“I do know one thing in my gut,” Tenet writes in his upcoming book. “Al Qaeda is here and waiting.”

Tenet, who served as CIA chief from 1997 to 2004, questioned how Al Qaeda hasn’t sent “suicide bombers to cause chaos in a half-dozen American shopping malls on any given day.”

Tenet's 549-page book, "At the Center of the Storm," published by HarperCollins, is set to hit the bookstores on Monday.

Tenet resigned as head of the U.S. intelligence agency in June 2004 amid criticism over the handling of the Sept. 11 attacks and the war in Iraq.

Tenet also criticized the Bush administration for rushing to war without serious debate.

"The president did wrestle with those very serious questions," White House spokesman Dan Bartlett responded.

"I've seen meetings, I've listened to the president, both in conversations with other world leaders like (British Prime Minister) Tony Blair, as well as internally, where the president did wrestle with those very questions," Bartlett said on NBC's "Today" show. "This president weighed all the various proposals, weighed all the various consequences before he did make a decision."

Click here to read The New York Times report.

Tenet claimed that they inappropriately used his uttering of the phrase “slam dunk,” which he said during a closed-door White House meeting, to defend the administration’s insistence that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.

"I am a bit confused by that because we have never indicated the president made the sole decision based on that slam dunk comment,” Bartlett said.

Tenet also said aggressive interrogation tactics saved lives after Sept. 11, 2001, but insisted that none of those tactics can be defined as torture.

“We don’t torture people,” Tenet said in an interview scheduled to air Sunday on CBS' "60 Minutes." “We don’t torture people. I don’t talk about techniques and we don’t torture people.”

Tenet said the highly criticized program of questioning "high value" targets by using sleep deprivation and water boarding, among other techniques, was more valuable to the security of the United States than all the work done at the FBI, the CIA and the National Security Agency, which tracks foreign electronic communications.

Discussing at length the atmosphere at the CIA after the terror attacks, Tenet said it was one of real fear and anxiety because no one knew when the other shoe would drop and end up killing thousands of Americans in the process.

"I've got reports of nuclear weapons in New York City, apartment buildings that are going to be blown up, planes that are going to fly into airports all over again, plots that I don't know. I don't know what's going on inside the United States and I'm struggling to find out where the next disaster is going to occur. Everybody forgets one central context of what we lived through — the palpable fear that we felt on the basis of the fact that there was so much that we did not know," Tenet said in the interview.

Congress passed legislation last year defining what enhanced interrogation techniques could be used during questioning of enemy combatants and detainees. The move came after the Supreme Court demanded Congress define the rules for interrogation. It defined abusive treatment of prisoners in the legislation, though critics said it left unclear precisely the methods permitted.

Asked about the Tenet interview, State Department spokesman Tom Casey described the interrogation debate as old news.

"Look, I think these issues have been well-covered and well- discussed. The U.S. does not support or condone torture. It does not practice torture. You've heard our statements on that over a long period of time," Casey said.

He called the leak of that conversation dishonorable and despicable, CBS reported.
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Old 04-27-2007, 10:35 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Why does Tenat use "false pretenses" rather than "lie"?
Should that difference in terms alter your determination of war crimes?
Is it possible for a preemptive war to start under "false pretenses" and not be suspect of war crimes in your view?
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Old 04-27-2007, 10:52 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Before anyone says it, Godwin arguments are important so that WWII and the holocaust never happen again. So if you dismiss this as a Godwin argument, then you love Hitler.

IMHO, we are headed in that direction but not quite there yet. Yes, 9/11 was similar to the Reichstag, yes the weapons of mass destruction and al queda lies were similar to the lies justified to invade Poland, yes the rhetoric is basically cut and pasted. So yes, we are absolutely headed in that direction. The Tenat NYTimes article is interesting. I'll read the rest later.
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Old 04-27-2007, 03:46 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
So if you dismiss this as a Godwin argument, then you love Hitler.
Sarcasm I hope?

Quote:
IMHO, we are headed in that direction but not quite there yet. Yes, 9/11 was similar to the Reichstag, yes the weapons of mass destruction and al queda lies were similar to the lies justified to invade Poland, yes the rhetoric is basically cut and pasted. So yes, we are absolutely headed in that direction. The Tenat NYTimes article is interesting. I'll read the rest later.
So are you considering 9/11 an electrical failure or an inside job?
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Old 04-27-2007, 04:22 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
Sarcasm I hope?
Pseudo-sarcasm. WWII happened because of a chain of events that could, in theory, lead to another similar situation. As such, it's important to compare current events with those historic events so that we can avoid situations similar to the events leading up to WWII. Anyone who simply will disable or dismiss a discussion out of some misplaced sense of loyalty is actually making it MORE likely that it will happen again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaver
So are you considering 9/11 an electrical failure or an inside job?
I think we both know that the Reichstag fire wasn't an electrical fire or was set by anti-Nazi rebels. I'm interested in the fact that only this of what I listed caught your attention. I do believe the misinformation that led up to an irrational invasion of Iraq was not dissimilar to the invasion into Poland by Nazi Germany.
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Old 04-28-2007, 05:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
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1441
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Old 04-28-2007, 07:05 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmike
1441
Weak....reconmike....

The points in the thread OP, now that Tenet has weighed in, necessitate a reaction in opposition that is more persuasive than the "1441" talking point.
They gambled by launching an unauthorized pre-emptive invasion. Preemption is immoral, it is also stupid and criminal, because it isn't provoked to a self defense level, raising the odds that it is an unwarranted and inexcusable aggression. Now we know that this is the case. The UN did not authorize the invasion of Iraq, it turned out not to be justified, and Mr. Bush unilaterally ordered UN weapons inspectors out of Iraq, while they were pleading for more time to complete their WMD inspections. This is the background:
Quote:
http://www.channel4.com/news/article...+of+war/253703
Attorney general's change of heart on legality of war

Last Modified: 23 Mar 2005
By: Channel 4 News

Extraordinary new light has been shed on the Attorney General's dramatic and rapid change of heart on the legality of war.

An unprecedented insight from inside the Foreign Office which backs the view that the Attorney General DID change his mind about invading Iraq -- deciding suddenly that it was legal, just when the government needed him to.

The resignation letter of a government law officer who quit on the eve of war is published -- with one key passage blanked out.

The document released by the Foreign Office -

A minute dated 18 March 2003 from Elizabeth Wilmshurst (Deputy Legal Adviser) to Michael Wood (The Legal Adviser), copied to the Private Secretary, the Private Secretary to the Permanent Under-Secretary, Alan Charlton (Director Personnel) and Andrew Patrick (Press Office):

<b>* "1. I regret that I cannot agree that it is lawful to use force against Iraq without a second Security Council resolution to revive the authorisation given in SCR 678. I do not need to set out my reasoning; you are aware of it. [blanked out section]

I cannot in conscience go along with advice - within the Office or to the public or Parliament - which asserts the legitimacy of military action without such a resolution, particularly since an unlawful use of force on such a scale amounts to the crime of aggression; nor can I agree with such action in circumstances which are so detrimental to the international order and the rule of law.



* 2. I therefore need to leave the Office: my views on the legitimacy of the action in Iraq would not make it possible for me to continue my role as a Deputy Legal Adviser or my work more generally. For example in the context of the International Criminal Court, negotiations on the crime of aggression begin again this year. I am therefore discussing with Alan Charlton whether I may take approved early retirement. In case that is not possible this letter should be taken as constituting notice of my resignation.


* 3. I joined the Office in 1974. It has been a privilege to work here. I leave with very great sadness."</b>


We reveal the missing words and ask why the government didn't want you to see them.

The document was released today under the Freedom of Information Act, with the crucial paragraph - on Lord Goldsmith's changed position - censored. But Channel 4 News has the missing details.

<b>Our political correspondent Gary Gibbon reports:

A senior government lawyer says that the Foreign Office legal team thought - until just before the outbreak of war - that the Attorney General agreed with them - that war was illegal without a second UN resolution.</b>

The evidence emerged after the government decided to publish the resignation letter from the former deputy legal adviser at the foreign office - Elizabeth Wilsmhurst.

<h3>Ms Wilmshurst resigned just before the outbreak of war claiming that war without a second UN reoslution was a "crime of aggression" ...</h3>

But the government refused to release a key paragraph in the letter - Channel 4 News has obtained the missing section.

In the censored paragrapgh Ms Wilmshurst wrote:

<b>"My views accord with the advice that has been given consistently in this Office (the foreign office legal team office) before and after the adoption of UN security council resolution 1441 and with what the Attorney General gave us to understand was his view prior to his letter of 7 March. (The view expressed in that letter has of course changed again into what is now the official line.)"</b>

The government said it had withheld that key paragraph in the public interest - to protect the privacy of the advice given by the attorney general.

Liberal Democrat Shadow Foreign Secretary Sir Menzies Campbell told Channel 4 News: "The government didn't withhold it in the public interest, it withheld it in the government's interest."

Elizabeth Wilmshurst's resignation letter appears to support a serious and persistent charge against the government - that the Attorney General's legal advice changed dramatically and rapidly just when the government desperately needed it to.

As efforts to get a second resolution were flagging - On 7 March - lord Goldsmith produced a lengthy legal opinion arguing that a case could be made for war without a second reoslution - but - he warned - it could be seriously open to legal challenge.

On 13th March he told ministers war without a second UN resolution was legal - no question.

Former Labour Minister Clare Short, who resigned over the issue of the Iraq war told Channel 4 News: "I think the government had to cover it up because it was so devastating."

The attorney general's office said it would not comment further on Lord Goldsmith's decision making process.

Today also saw the government's formal response to Lord Butler's inquiry into intelligence on Iraq.

The government reveals the intelligence services have been shaken up with more resources, better checking of sources and more sharing of information between different branches of intelligence.

But there's still been no formal investigation into the political and legal path to war and tonight the government's version of events is yet again being seriously challenged.
Quote:
http://foisa.blogspot.com/2005_04_01_archive.html
http://www.channel4.com/news/article...cuments/107545
Wednesday, April 27, 2005
Attorney General's Advice Published: Full text of leaked document
Channel 4 has obtained a copy of the summary of the Attorney General's advice that was presented to Tony Blair on 7 March 2003, two weeks before the invasion of Iraq.

* Update - 28 April 2005: full 13-page text of legal advice - 693kb (pdf)

The summary extract reads as follows:

EXTRACT FROM MINUTE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
TO THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, 7 MARCH 2003

"Summary

26. To sum up, the language of resolution 1441 leaves the position unclear and the statements made on adoption of the resolution suggest that there were differences of view within the Council as to the legal effect of the resolution. Arguments can be made on both sides. A key question is whether there is in truth a need for an assessment of whether Iraq's conduct constitutes a failure to take the final opportunity or has constituted a failure fully to cooperate within the meaning of OP4 such that the basis of the cease-fire is destroyed. If an assessment is needed of that situation, it would be for the Council to make it. A narrow textual reading of the resolution suggests that sort of assessment is not needed, because the Council has predetermined the issue. Public statements, on the other hand, say otherwise.

27. In these circumstances, I remain of the opinion that the safest legal course would be to secure the adoption of a further resolution to authorise the use of force. [...] The key point is that it should establish that the Council has concluded that Iraq has failed to take the final opportunity offered by resolution 1441, as in the draft which has already been tabled.

28. Nevertheless, having regard to the information on the negotiating history which I have been given and to the arguments of the US Administration which I heard in Washington, I accept that a reasonable case can be made that resolution 1441 is capable in principle of reviving the authorisation in 678 without a further resolution.

<b>29. However, the argument that resolution 1441 alone has revived the authorisation to use force in resolution 678 will only be sustainable if there are strong factual grounds for concluding that Iraq has failed to take the final opportunity. In other words, we would need to be able to demonstrate hard evidence of non-compliance and non-cooperation. Given the structure of the resolution as a whole, the views of UNMOVIC and the IAEA will be highly significant in this respect. In the light of the latest reporting by UNMOVIC, you will need to consider very carefully whether the evidence of non-cooperation and non- compliance by Iraq is sufficiently compelling to justify the conclusion that Iraq has failed to take its final opportunity.</b>

30. In reaching my conclusion, I have taken account of the fact that on a number of previous occasions, including in relation to Operation Desert Fox in December 1998 and Kosovo in 1999, UK forces have participated in military action on the basis of advice from my predecessors that the legality of the action under international law was no more than reasonably arguable. But a "reasonable case" does not mean that if the matter ever came before a court I would be confident that the court would agree with the view. I judge that, having regard to the arguments on both sides, and considering the resolution as a whole in the light of the statements made on adoption and subsequently, a court might well conclude that OPs 4 and 12 do requ1re a further Council decision in order to revive the authorisation in resolution 678. But equally I consider that the counter view can be reasonably maintained. However, it must be recognised that on previous occasions when military action was taken on the basis of a reasonably arguable case, the degree
of public and Parliamentary scrutiny of the legal issue was nothing as great as it is today.

31. The analysis set out above applies whether a second resolution fails to be adopted because of a lack of votes or because it is vetoed. As I have said before, I do not believe that there is any basis in law for arguing that there is an implied condition of reasonableness which can be read into the power of veto conferred on the permanent members of the Security Council by the UN Charter. So there are no grounds for arguing that an "unreasonable veto" would entitle us to proceed on the basis of a presumed Security Council authorisation. In any event, if the majority of world opinion remains opposed to military action, it is likely to be difficult on the facts to categorise a French veto as "unreasonable". The legal analysis may, however, be affected by the course of events over the next week or so, eg the discussions on the draft second resolution. If we fail to achieve the adoption of a second resolution we would need to consider urgently at that stage the strength of our legal case in the light of circumstances at the time.

Possible consequences of acting without a second resolution
[...]"
Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...471932,00.html

Blix insists there was no firm weapons evidence


Ewen MacAskill, diplomatic editor
Thursday April 28, 2005
The Guardian

The head of the United Nations weapons inspectors in the run-up to the Iraq war, Hans Blix, last night undercut one of the main grounds offered by the attorney general, Lord Goldsmith, in his legal advice to Tony Blair.

Lord Goldsmith said there would have to be evidence that Iraq was not complying with the inspectors.

But Mr Blix, who has since retired to Sweden, said his inspectors found no compelling evidence that Iraq had a hidden arsenal or was blocking the work of the inspectors. He said there had been only small infractions by Iraq.

"We did express ourselves in dry terms but there was no mistake about the content," he said. "One cannot say there was compelling evidence. Iraq was guilty only of small infractions. The government should have re-evaluated its assessment in the light of what the inspectors found.

"We reported consistently that we found no weapons of mass destruction and I carried out inspections at sites given to us by US and British intelligence and not found anything."

In a key passage in the legal advice written by Lord Goldsmith on March 7 2003, the attorney general said that UN resolution 1441 could only be sustainable as a justification for war "if there are strong factual grounds for concluding that Iraq has failed to take the final opportunity. In other words, we would need to be able to demonstrate hard evidence of non-compliance and non-cooperation."

He said the views of Unmovic, the UN inspectorate body, and the International Atomic Energy Agency, the UN nuclear watchdog, will be "highly significant" and "you will need to consider very carefully whether the evidence of non-cooperation and non-compliance by Iraq is sufficiently compelling".

Mr Blix and his team returned to Iraq in December 2002 after a four-year absence and remained until the week before war began in March 2003. More than 200 inspectors crisscrossed Iraq, checking out possible sites for the production or stockpiling of weapons of mass destruction: chemical, biological or nuclear.

Mr Blix's first monthly report to the UN security council in January was mainly negative about the Iraqi government, complaining about lack of cooperation. A month later he adopted a more neutral stance, pointing out some infringements but finding no significant stockpiles.

On March 7, the day Lord Goldsmith drew up his report, Mr Blix gave his final report and this was the most favourable yet from Iraq's point of view.

Asked if this final report amounted to the compelling evidence that Lord Goldsmith considered crucial, Mr Blix said: "One cannot say so. There were infractions, you can say. In March, they (the Iraqis) cooperated like hell. They were pro-active. In December and January, no. That is why I gave a critical account on January 27. In February, it was more balanced."

On March 7, Mr Blix pleaded for more time to complete his mission and reported that lethal weapons such as Samoud 2 missiles were being destroyed.

Mr Blix said last night: "The things found were all small things. We found dozens of munitions for chemical weapons. They were empty and in a site declared. In relation to Samoud that went beyond 150 kilometres, they (the US and Britain) said it was beyond the permitted limit but I did not feel particularly indignant about that."

On the same day, the head of the IAEA, Mohamed ElBaradei, reported that there was no evidence that Saddam Hussein had any nuclear weapons or was in the process of acquiring them. Mr Blix said: "By then, Mohamed ElBaradei revealed that Niger was not authentic." British intelligence falsely claimed Iraq had been trying to acquire uranium from Niger.

Mr Blix said Mr ElBaradei had also challenged US claims that aluminium tubes found were for WMD purposes. Mr Blix himself also expressed scepticism to the US secretary of state, Colin Powell, about alleged evidence of WMD.

The Iraq Survey Group, set up by the US to search for WMD, found none.

In Britain, inquiries into the route to war have been held by MPs, Lord Hutton and Lord Butler. The intelligence service was criticised for not re-evaluating its assessments in the light of Mr Blix's reports.

Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030316-3.html
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
March 16, 2003

President Bush: Monday "Moment of Truth" for World on Iraq
Press Availability with President Bush, Prime Minister Blair, President Aznar, and Prime Minister Barroso - the Azores, Portugal

....... PRESIDENT BUSH: That being my answer --

Q Regardless of whether the resolution goes up or down or gets withdrawn, it seems to me you're going to be facing a moment of truth. And given that you've already said you don't think there's very much chance Saddam Hussein is going to disarm, and given that you say you don't think there's very much chance he's going to go to go into exile, aren't we going to war?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Tomorrow is the day that we will determine whether or not diplomacy can work. And we sat and visited about this issue, about how best to spend our time between now and tomorrow. And as Prime Minister Blair said, we'll be working the phones and talking to our partners and talking to those who may now clearly understand the objective, and we'll see how it goes tomorrow.

Saddam Hussein can leave the country, if he's interested in peace. You see, the decision is his to make. And it's been his to make all along as to whether or not there's the use of the military. He got to decide whether he was going to disarm, and he didn't. He can decide whether he wants to leave the country. These are his decisions to make. And thus far he has made bad decisions.

Q I understand that if tomorrow is the day for taking the final decision, that means that you consider that there's no possible way out through the United Nations because a majority does not support a war action. I would like to know, Mr. Blair, Mr. Bush, whether in that military offensive you count on many countries, whether it's going to be the UK and the U.S. carrying out the military offensive? I understand from what Mr. Blair that you're counting on the U.N. for the reconstruction. Are you going to look for other countries through the United Nations?

And for Mr. Aznar, what is Spain's participation in that military offensive, in addition to your political support?

PRESIDENT BUSH: Resolution 1441, which was unanimously approved, that said Saddam Hussein would unconditionally disarm, and if he didn't, there would be serious consequences. The United Nations Security Council looked at the issue four and a half months ago and voted unanimously to say: Disarm immediately and unconditionally, and if you don't, there are going to be serious consequences. The world has spoken. And it did it in a unified voice.

Sorry. .........
Quote:
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/38604/
Could Bush Be Prosecuted for War Crimes?

By Jan Frel, AlterNet. Posted July 10, 2006.

<i>A Nuremberg chief prosecutor says there is a case for trying Bush for the 'supreme crime against humanity, an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation.'</i>


Most Americans firmly believe there is nothing the United States or its political leadership could possibly do that could equate to the crimes of Hitler's Third Reich. The Nazis are our "gold standard of evil," as author John Dolan once put it.

But the truth is that we can, and we have -- most recently and significantly in Iraq. Perhaps no person on the planet is better equipped to identify and describe our crimes in Iraq than Benjamin Ferencz, a former chief prosecutor of the Nuremberg Trials who successfully convicted 22 Nazi officers for their work in orchestrating death squads that killed more than one million people in the famous Einsatzgruppen Case. Ferencz, now 87, has gone on to become a founding father of the basis behind international law regarding war crimes, and his essays and legal work drawing from the Nuremberg trials and later the commission that established the International Criminal Court remain a lasting influence in that realm.

Ferencz's biggest contribution to the war crimes field is his assertion that an unprovoked or "aggressive" war is the highest crime against mankind. It was the decision to invade Iraq in 2003 that made possible the horrors of Abu Ghraib, the destruction of Fallouja and Ramadi, the tens of thousands of Iraqi deaths, civilian massacres like Haditha, and on and on. Ferencz believes that a "prima facie case can be made that the United States is guilty of the supreme crime against humanity, that being an illegal war of aggression against a sovereign nation."

Interviewed from his home in New York, Ferencz laid out a simple summary of the case:

"The <a href="http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/">United Nations charter</a> has a provision which was agreed to by the United States formulated by the United States in fact, after World War II. Its says that from now on, no nation can use armed force without the permission of the U.N. Security Council. They can use force in connection with self-defense, but a country can't use force in anticipation of self-defense. Regarding Iraq, the last Security Council resolution essentially said, 'Look, send the weapons inspectors out to Iraq, have them come back and tell us what they've found -- then we'll figure out what we're going to do. The U.S. was impatient, and decided to invade Iraq -- which was all pre-arranged of course. So, the United States went to war, in violation of the charter."

It's that simple. Ferencz called the invasion a "clear breach of law," and dismissed the Bush administration's legal defense that previous U.N. Security Council resolutions dating back to the first Gulf War justified an invasion in 2003. <h3>Ferencz notes that the first Bush president believed that the United States didn't have a U.N. mandate to go into Iraq and take out Saddam Hussein; that authorization was simply to eject Hussein from Kuwait. Ferencz asked, "So how do we get authorization more than a decade later to finish the job? The arguments made to defend this are not persuasive."</h3>

Writing for the United Kingdom's Guardian, shortly before the 2003 invasion, international law expert Mark Littman echoed Ferencz: "The threatened war against Iraq will be a breach of the United Nations Charter and hence of international law unless it is authorized by a new and unambiguous resolution of the Security Council. The Charter is clear. No such war is permitted unless it is in self-defense or authorized by the Security Council.".....
Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/st...910882,00.html
A supreme international crime


Any member of a government backing an aggressive war will be open to prosecution

Mark Littman
Monday March 10, 2003
The Guardian

The threatened war against Iraq will be a breach of the United Nations Charter and hence of international law unless it is authorised by a new and unambiguous resolution of the security council. The Charter is clear. No such war is permitted unless it is in self-defence or authorised by the security council.

Self-defence has no application here. Neither the United States nor the UK, nor any of their allies, is under attack or any threat of immediate attack by Iraq......
Quote:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...nce-iraq_x.htm
Posted 3/17/2003 5:12 AM Updated 3/17/2003 9:38 AM

France calls emergency U.N. meeting Tuesday

United States and its allies for the United Nations to authorize war against Baghdad.

Ending weeks of silence on the issue, Russian President Vladimir Putin condemned military action against Iraq, saying Monday that war would be a mistake that could imperil world security. His foreign minister, Igor Ivanov, was flying to New York for Tuesday's Security Council session, news reports say.

Putin's comments came as U.N. chief weapons inspector Hans Blix was preparing to give the council a 30-page report Monday listing about a dozen key remaining disarmament tasks that Iraq should complete in the coming months.

It appeared almost certain that a U.S.-led war would have to go ahead without U.N. authorization because the 15-member council remains bitterly divided and no acceptable compromise is on the table.

President Bush made it clear after a summit in the Azores Sunday with allies Britain, Spain and Portugal that diplomatic efforts would end by Monday night, but he did not make clear what the next steps would be.

Late Sunday evening, the Security Council scheduled closed consultations on Iraq at 10 a.m. ET Monday to discuss the resolution sponsored by the United States, Britain and Spain setting an ultimatum for Iraq to rid itself of weapons on mass destruction within days or face war. The current resolution would set the deadline for Monday, but U.S. officials said that could be extended briefly.

Washington could call for a vote, but the resolution doesn't have the support of a majority of the 15 council members and faces a threatened veto by France, and possibly Russia. At the summit, the co-sponsors didn't offer any new "carrots" to try to win over opponents, and no major shifts in the positions of council members were expected.

In Moscow, a top diplomat said the council would not approve the U.S.-backed resolution. "This draft has no chances for passage," Deputy Foreign Minister Yuri Fedotov told Interfax news agency. "No additional resolutions are necessary."

For weeks, Putin has been silent on Iraq. He deliberately seemed to be seeking to avoid opposing Washington even as the Russian Foreign Ministry battered home the message that Russia would join France in opposing any U.N. resolution that automatically authorized force.

"We are for solving the problem exclusively by peaceful means," Putin was quoted as saying by the Interfax news agency. He said Russia's position was clear, comprehensible and unwavering.

"Any other development would be a mistake — fraught with the toughest consequences, leading to victims and destabilization of the international situation as a whole," Putin told Chechen spiritual leaders, according to Interfax.

French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin said Monday that France cannot accept a second U.N. resolution that includes an ultimatum or resorts to automatic use of force to disarm Iraq. Speaking to Europe-1 radio, de Villepin reiterated France's threat to use its veto in the Security Council to block a resolution that paves the way to war.

The other option would be to abandon the resolution, which diplomats say might be the smarter thing to do from a legal point of view.

If the resolution is defeated, an attack against Iraq would violate international law. But if there is no vote, the legal status of a war falls into a gray area where the United States and Britain would likely claim they already have authority to attack under previous U.N. resolutions — and other council nations would argue that they don't.

Prime Minister Tony Blair said Sunday that British diplomats would work through the night to try to persuade France to reverse course. Asked what would happen if Paris continues to threaten a veto, Blair appeared pessimistic about the chances of avoiding military action.

"It's very difficult to see how you can change that position," he told reporters during his flight home from the Azores.

French diplomats at the United Nations said the country's position had not changed, and it remains on the same track — in favor of continued inspections because they are working and opposed to any U.N. resolution authorizing military force.

For that reason, French diplomats on Sunday pressed for a Security Council meeting at 3 p.m. ET Monday to discuss a joint declaration by France, Russia and Germany calling for foreign ministers from the 15 council nations to meet Tuesday to discuss a "realistic" timetable for Saddam Hussein to disarm.

The declaration, released Saturday, said there was no justification for a war on Iraq and that U.N. weapons inspections were working.

French President Jacques Chirac said Sunday he was willing to accept a one-month or two-month deadline for Iraq to disarm, provided the move was endorsed by the chief U.N. weapons inspectors. But U.S. officials dismissed the idea as a nonstarter and Germany opposed it, saying it wanted no ultimatum.

German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder said he would continue to fight for peaceful disarmament.

"I think it is always worth it — even in the last minute — to push for peace and to fight for a peaceful disarmament," Schroeder told German television ZDF late Sunday.

Vice President Dick Cheney dismissed the French proposal, saying "it's difficult to take the French seriously."

As war inched closer, the United States advised the United Nations to withdraw its inspectors from Baghdad, countries closed their embassies and foreign journalists left the country Monday.
Quote:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/i...ors-iraq_x.htm
Posted 3/17/2003 5:40 AM Updated 3/17/2003 1:16 PM
U.S advises weapons inspectors to leave Iraq
VIENNA, Austria (AP) — In the clearest sign yet that war with Iraq is imminent, the United States has advised U.N. weapons inspectors to begin pulling out of Baghdad, the U.N. nuclear agency chief said Monday.....

.....ElBaradei, who has been monitoring the situation day to day, also confirmed that he and Blix had received an invitation from Baghdad "to visit Iraq with a view toward accelerating the implementation of our respective mandates." He did not say whether he or Blix had accepted.

"I should note that in recent weeks, possibly as a result of increasing pressure by the international community, Iraq has been more forthcoming in its cooperation with the IAEA," he said, adding that inspectors still have found no evidence that Saddam Hussein has revived his nuclear program.

But with the United States, Britain and Spain making clear that Monday would be the final day for diplomatic efforts to avert a conflict, it appeared that the inspectors were running out of time and could begin withdrawing at any moment.

In other signs that war could be imminent, the U.S. State Department on Sunday night ordered nonessential personnel and all family members to leave Israel, Kuwait and Syria in a precautionary move. .......
Quote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3661134.stm
Last Updated: Thursday, 16 September, 2004, 09:21 GMT 10:21 UK

Iraq war illegal, says Annan

The United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan has told the BBC the US-led invasion of Iraq was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter.

He said the decision to take action in Iraq should have been made by the Security Council, not unilaterally.

The UK government responded by saying the attorney-general made the "legal basis... clear at the time".

Mr Annan also warned security in Iraq must considerably improve if credible elections are to be held in January.

The UN chief said in an interview with the BBC World Service that "painful lessons" had been learnt since the war in Iraq.

"Lessons for the US, the UN and other member states. I think in the end everybody's concluded it's best to work together with our allies and through the UN," he said.

'Valid'

"I hope we do not see another Iraq-type operation for a long time - without UN approval and much broader support from the international community," he added.

He said he believed there should have been a second UN resolution following Iraq's failure to comply over weapons inspections.

And it should have been up to the Security Council to approve or determine the consequences, he added.

When pressed on whether he viewed the invasion of Iraq as illegal, he said: "Yes, if you wish. I have indicated it was not in conformity with the UN charter from our point of view, from the charter point of view, it was illegal."

Mr Annan's comments provoked angry suggestions from a former Bush administration aide that they were timed to influence the US November election.

"I think it is outrageous for the Secretary-General, who ultimately works for the member states, to try and supplant his judgement for the judgement of the member states," Randy Scheunemann, a former advisor to US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told the BBC.

"To do this 51 days before an American election reeks of political interference."

A UK foreign office spokeswoman said: "The Attorney-General made the government's position on the legal basis for the use of military force in Iraq clear at the time".

Australian Prime Minister John Howard also rejected Mr Annan's remarks, saying the legal advice he was given was "entirely valid".

The BBC's Susannah Price at UN headquarters in New York says Mr Annan has made similar comments before.

He has said from the beginning the invasion did not conform with the UN charter - phrasing that was seen as a diplomatic way of saying the war was illegal.

Our correspondent says Mr Annan's relationship with the US might be made a little uncomfortable for a while following his comments, but both sides are likely to want to play it down.....
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Old 04-28-2007, 07:56 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Weak....reconmike....

The points in the thread OP, now that Tenet has weighed in, necessitate a reaction in opposition that is more persuasive than the "1441" talking point.
They gambled by launching an unauthorized pre-emptive invasion. Preemption is immoral, it is also stupid and criminal, because it isn't provoked to a self defense level, raising the odds that it is an unwarranted and inexcusable aggression. Now we know that this is the case. The UN did not authorize the invasion of Iraq, it turned out not to be justified, and Mr. Bush unilaterally ordered UN weapons inspectors out of Iraq, while they were pleading for more time to complete their WMD inspections. This is the background:

Host, what part of cease-fire do you not understand?


cease-fire or cease·fire (sēs'fīr')
n.
An order to stop firing.
Suspension of active hostilities; a truce.

See how it says suspension of hostilities? It does not state to end or terminate hostilities.

Iraq was in violation of the CEASE-FIRE, which in terms gave Bush every right to resume firing.

Resolution 1441 specifically stated:

Quote:
That Iraq was in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq's breaches related not only to Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by its troops in 1991.
That this represented Iraq's final opportunity to comply with disarmament requirements. In accordance with the previous Resolutions, this meant Iraq not only had to verify the existence or destruction of its remaining unaccounted-for WMD stockpiles, but also had to ensure that all equipment, plans, and materials useful for the resumption of WMD programs was likewise turned over or verified as destroyed.
That "...false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq’s obligations".

Quote:
RESOLUTION 687 (1991)
Adopted by the Security Council at its 2981st meeting,
on 3 April 1991

The Security Council,

Recalling its resolutions 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990, 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 662 (1990) of 9 August 1990, 664 (1990) of 18 August 1990, 665 (1990) of 25 August 1990, 666 (1990) of 13 September 1990, 667 (1990) of 16 September 1990, 669 (1990) of 24 September 1990, 670 (1990) of 25 September 1990, 674 (1990) of 29 October 1990, 677 (1990) of 28 November 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990 and 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991,

Welcoming the restoration to Kuwait of its sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity and the return of its legitimate Government,

Affirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty, territorial integrity and political independence of Kuwait and Iraq, and noting the intention expressed by the Member States cooperating with Kuwait under paragraph 2 of resolution 678 (1990) to bring their military presence in Iraq to an end as soon as possible consistent with paragraph 8 of resolution 686 (1991),

Reaffirming the need to be assured of Iraq's peaceful intentions in the light of its unlawful invasion and occupation of Kuwait,

Taking note of the letter sent by the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Iraq on 27 February 1991 and those sent pursuant to resolution 686 (1991),

Noting that Iraq and Kuwait, as independent sovereign States, signed at Baghdad on 4 October 1963 "Agreed Minutes Between the State of Kuwait and the Republic of Iraq Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition and Related Matters", thereby recognizing formally the boundary between Iraq and Kuwait and the allocation of islands, which were registered with the United Nations in accordance with Article 102 of the Charter of the United Nations and in which Iraq recognized the independence and complete sovereignty of the State of Kuwait within its borders as specified and accepted in the letter of the Prime Minister of Iraq dated 21 July 1932, and as accepted by the Ruler of Kuwait in his letter dated 10 August 1932,

Conscious of the need for demarcation of the said boundary,

Conscious also of the statements by Iraq threatening to use weapons in violation of its obligations under the Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, signed at Geneva on 17 June 1925, and of its prior use of chemical weapons and affirming that grave consequences would follow any further use by Iraq of such weapons,

Recalling that Iraq has subscribed to the Declaration adopted by all States participating in the Conference of States Parties to the 1925 Geneva Protocol and Other Interested States, held in Paris from 7 to 11 January 1989, establishing the objective of universal elimination of chemical and biological weapons,

Recalling also that Iraq has signed the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction, of 10 April 1972,

Noting the importance of Iraq ratifying this Convention,

Noting moreover the importance of all States adhering to this Convention and encouraging its forthcoming Review Conference to reinforce the authority, efficiency and universal scope of the convention,

Stressing the importance of an early conclusion by the Conference on Disarmament of its work on a Convention on the Universal Prohibition of Chemical Weapons and of universal adherence thereto,

Aware of the use by Iraq of ballistic missiles in unprovoked attacks and therefore of the need to take specific measures in regard to such missiles located in Iraq,

Concerned by the reports in the hands of Member States that Iraq has attempted to acquire materials for a nuclear-weapons programme contrary to its obligations under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968,

Recalling the objective of the establishment of a nuclear-weapons-free zone in the region of the Middle East,

Conscious of the threat that all weapons of mass destruction pose to peace and security in the area and of the need to work towards the establishment in the Middle East of a zone free of such weapons,

Conscious also of the objective of achieving balanced and comprehensive control of armaments in the region,

Conscious further of the importance of achieving the objectives noted above using all available means, including a dialogue among the States of the region,

Noting that resolution 686 (1991) marked the lifting of the measures imposed by resolution 661 (1990) in so far as they applied to Kuwait,

Noting that despite the progress being made in fulfilling the obligations of resolution 686 (1991), many Kuwaiti and third country nationals are still not accounted for and property remains unreturned,

Recalling the International Convention against the Taking of Hostages, opened for signature at New York on 18 December 1979, which categorizes all acts of taking hostages as manifestations of international terrorism,

Deploring threats made by Iraq during the recent conflict to make use of terrorism against targets outside Iraq and the taking of hostages by Iraq,

Taking note with grave concern of the reports of the Secretary-General of 20 March 1991 and 28 March 1991, and conscious of the necessity to meet urgently the humanitarian needs in Kuwait and Iraq,

Bearing in mind its objective of restoring international peace and security in the area as set out in recent resolutions of the Security Council,

Conscious of the need to take the following measures acting under Chapter VII of the Charter,

1. Affirms all thirteen resolutions noted above, except as expressly changed below to achieve the goals of this resolution, including a formal cease-fire;

A

2. Demands that Iraq and Kuwait respect the inviolability of the international boundary and the allocation of islands set out in the "Agreed Minutes Between the State of Kuwait and the Republic of Iraq Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition and Related Matters", signed by them in the exercise of their sovereignty at Baghdad on 4 October 1963 and registered with the United Nations and published by the United Nations in document 7063, United Nations, Treaty Series, 1964;

3. Calls upon the Secretary-General to lend his assistance to make arrangements with Iraq and Kuwait to demarcate the boundary between Iraq and Kuwait, drawing on appropriate material, including the map transmitted by Security Council document S/22412 and to report back to the Security Council within one month;

4. Decides to guarantee the inviolability of the above-mentioned international boundary and to take as appropriate all necessary measures to that end in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations;

B

5. Requests the Secretary-General, after consulting with Iraq and Kuwait, to submit within three days to the Security Council for its approval a plan for the immediate deployment of a United Nations observer unit to monitor the Khor Abdullah and a demilitarized zone, which is hereby established, extending ten kilometres into Iraq and five kilometres into Kuwait from the boundary referred to in the "Agreed Minutes Between the State of Kuwait and the Republic of Iraq Regarding the Restoration of Friendly Relations, Recognition and Related Matters" of 4 October 1963; to deter violations of the boundary through its presence in and surveillance of the demilitarized zone; to observe any hostile or potentially hostile action mounted from the territory of one State to the other; and for the Secretary-General to report regularly to the Security Council on the operations of the unit, and immediately if there are serious violations of the zone or potential threats to peace;

6. Notes that as soon as the Secretary-General notifies the Security Council of the completion of the deployment of the United Nations observer unit, the conditions will be established for the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990) to bring their military presence in Iraq to an end consistent with resolution 686 (1991);

C

7. Invites Iraq to reaffirm unconditionally its obligations under the Geneva Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or Other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare, signed at Geneva on 17 June 1925, and to ratify the Convention on the Prohibition of the Development, Production and Stockpiling of Bacteriological (Biological) and Toxin Weapons and on Their Destruction, of 10 April 1972;

8. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally accept the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless, under international supervision, of:

(a) All chemical and biological weapons and all stocks of agents and all related subsystems and components and all research, development, support and manufacturing facilities;

(b) All ballistic missiles with a range greater than 150 kilometres and related major parts, and repair and production facilities;

9. Decides, for the implementation of paragraph 8 above, the following:

(a) Iraq shall submit to the Secretary-General, within fifteen days of the adoption of the present resolution, a declaration of the locations, amounts and types of all items specified in paragraph 8 and agree to urgent, on-site inspection as specified below;

(b) The Secretary-General, in consultation with the appropriate Governments and, where appropriate, with the Director-General of the World Health Organization, within forty-five days of the passage of the present resolution, shall develop, and submit to the Council for approval, a plan calling for the completion of the following acts within forty-five days of such approval:

(i) The forming of a Special Commission, which shall carry out immediate on-site inspection of Iraq's biological, chemical and missile capabilities, based on Iraq's declarations and the designation of any additional locations by the Special Commission itself;

(ii) The yielding by Iraq of possession to the Special Commission for destruction, removal or rendering harmless, taking into account the requirements of public safety, of all items specified under paragraph 8 (a) above, including items at the additional locations designated by the Special Commission under paragraph 9 (b) (i) above and the destruction by Iraq, under the supervision of the Special Commission, of all its missile capabilities, including launchers, as specified under paragraph 8 (b) above;

(iii) The provision by the Special Commission of the assistance and cooperation to the Director-General of the International Atomic Energy Agency required in paragraphs 12 and 13 below;

10. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally undertake not to use, develop, construct or acquire any of the items specified in paragraphs 8 and 9 above and requests the Secretary-General, in consultation with the Special Commission, to develop a plan for the future ongoing monitoring and verification of Iraq's compliance with this paragraph, to be submitted to the Security Council for approval within one hundred and twenty days of the passage of this resolution;

11. Invites Iraq to reaffirm unconditionally its obligations under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968;

12. Decides that Iraq shall unconditionally agree not to acquire or develop nuclear weapons or nuclear-weapons-usable material or any subsystems or components or any research, development, support or manufacturing facilities related to the above; to submit to the Secretary-General and the Director-General of the International Atomic Energy Agency within fifteen days of the adoption of the present resolution a declaration of the locations, amounts, and types of all items specified above; to place all of its nuclear-weapons-usable materials under the exclusive control, for custody and removal, of the International Atomic Energy Agency, with the assistance and cooperation of the Special Commission as provided for in the plan of the Secretary-General discussed in paragraph 9 (b) above; to accept, in accordance with the arrangements provided for in paragraph 13 below, urgent on-site inspection and the destruction, removal or rendering harmless as appropriate of all items specified above; and to accept the plan discussed in paragraph 13 below for the future ongoing monitoring and verification of its compliance with these undertakings;

13. Requests the Director-General of the International Atomic Energy Agency, through the Secretary-General, with the assistance and cooperation of the Special Commission as provided for in the plan of the Secretary-General in paragraph 9 (b) above, to carry out immediate on-site inspection of Iraq's nuclear capabilities based on Iraq's declarations and the designation of any additional locations by the Special Commission; to develop a plan for submission to the Security Council within forty-five days calling for the destruction, removal, or rendering harmless as appropriate of all items listed in paragraph 12 above; to carry out the plan within forty-five days following approval by the Security Council; and to develop a plan, taking into account the rights and obligations of Iraq under the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of 1 July 1968, for the future ongoing monitoring and verification of Iraq's compliance with paragraph 12 above, including an inventory of all nuclear material in Iraq subject to the Agency's verification and inspections to confirm that Agency safeguards cover all relevant nuclear activities in Iraq, to be submitted to the Security Council for approval within one hundred and twenty days of the passage of the present resolution;

14. Takes note that the actions to be taken by Iraq in paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of the present resolution represent steps towards the goal of establishing in the Middle East a zone free from weapons of mass destruction and all missiles for their delivery and the objective of a global ban on chemical weapons;

D

15. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the steps taken to facilitate the return of all Kuwaiti property seized by Iraq, including a list of any property that Kuwait claims has not been returned or which has not been returned intact;

E

16. Reaffirms that Iraq, without prejudice to the debts and obligations of Iraq arising prior to 2 August 1990, which will be addressed through the normal mechanisms, is liable under international law for any direct loss, damage, including environmental damage and the depletion of natural resources, or injury to foreign Governments, nationals and corporations, as a result of Iraq's unlawful invasion and occupation of Kuwait;

17. Decides that all Iraqi statements made since 2 August 1990 repudiating its foreign debt are null and void, and demands that Iraq adhere scrupulously to all of its obligations concerning servicing and repayment of its foreign debt;

18. Decides also to create a fund to pay compensation for claims that fall within paragraph 16 above and to establish a Commission that will administer the fund;

19. Directs the Secretary-General to develop and present to the Security Council for decision, no later than thirty days following the adoption of the present resolution, recommendations for the fund to meet the requirement for the payment of claims established in accordance with paragraph 18 above and for a programme to implement the decisions in paragraphs 16, 17 and 18 above, including: administration of the fund; mechanisms for determining the appropriate level of Iraq's contribution to the fund based on a percentage of the value of the exports of petroleum and petroleum products from Iraq not to exceed a figure to be suggested to the Council by the Secretary-General, taking into account the requirements of the people of Iraq, Iraq's payment capacity as assessed in conjunction with the international financial institutions taking into consideration external debt service, and the needs of the Iraqi economy; arrangements for ensuring that payments are made to the fund; the process by which funds will be allocated and claims paid; appropriate procedures for evaluating losses, listing claims and verifying their validity and resolving disputed claims in respect of Iraq's liability as specified in paragraph 16 above; and the composition of the Commission designated above;

F

20. Decides, effective immediately, that the prohibitions against the sale or supply to Iraq of commodities or products, other than medicine and health supplies, and prohibitions against financial transactions related thereto contained in resolution 661 (1990) shall not apply to foodstuffs notified to the Security Council Committee established by resolution 661 (1990) concerning the situation between Iraq and Kuwait or, with the approval of that Committee, under the simplified and accelerated "no-objection" procedure, to materials and supplies for essential civilian needs as identified in the report of the Secretary-General dated 20 March 1991, and in any further findings of humanitarian need by the Committee;

21. Decides that the Security Council shall review the provisions of paragraph 20 above every sixty days in the light of the policies and practices of the Government of Iraq, including the implementation of all relevant resolutions of the Security Council, for the purpose of determining whether to reduce or lift the prohibitions referred to therein;

22. Decides that upon the approval by the Security Council of the programme called for in paragraph 19 above and upon Council agreement that Iraq has completed all actions contemplated in paragraphs 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13 above, the prohibitions against the import of commodities and products originating in Iraq and the prohibitions against financial transactions related thereto contained in resolution 661 (1990) shall have no further force or effect;

23. Decides that, pending action by the Security Council under paragraph 22 above, the Security Council Committee established by resolution 661 (1990) shall be empowered to approve, when required to assure adequate financial resources on the part of Iraq to carry out the activities under paragraph 20 above, exceptions to the prohibition against the import of commodities and products originating in Iraq;

24. Decides that, in accordance with resolution 661 (1990) and subsequent related resolutions and until a further decision is taken by the Security Council, all States shall continue to prevent the sale or supply, or the promotion or facilitation of such sale or supply, to Iraq by their nationals, or from their territories or using their flag vessels or aircraft, of:

(a) Arms and related materiel of all types, specifically including the sale or transfer through other means of all forms of conventional military equipment, including for paramilitary forces, and spare parts and components and their means of production, for such equipment;

(b) Items specified and defined in paragraphs 8 and 12 above not otherwise covered above;

(c) Technology under licensing or other transfer arrangements used in the production, utilization or stockpiling of items specified in subparagraphs (a) and (b) above;

(d) Personnel or materials for training or technical support services relating to the design, development, manufacture, use, maintenance or support of items specified in subparagraphs (a) and (b) above;

25. Calls upon all States and international organizations to act strictly in accordance with paragraph 24 above, notwithstanding the existence of any contracts, agreements, licences or any other arrangements;

26. Requests the Secretary-General, in consultation with appropriate Governments, to develop within sixty days, for the approval of the Security Council, guidelines to facilitate full international implementation of paragraphs 24 and 25 above and paragraph 27 below, and to make them available to all States and to establish a procedure for updating these guidelines periodically;

27. Calls upon all States to maintain such national controls and procedures and to take such other actions consistent with the guidelines to be established by the Security Council under paragraph 26 above as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the terms of paragraph 24 above, and calls upon international organizations to take all appropriate steps to assist in ensuring such full compliance;

28. Agrees to review its decisions in paragraphs 22, 23, 24 and 25 above, except for the items specified and defined in paragraphs 8 and 12 above, on a regular basis and in any case one hundred and twenty days following passage of the present resolution, taking into account Iraq's compliance with the resolution and general progress towards the control of armaments in the region;

29. Decides that all States, including Iraq, shall take the necessary measures to ensure that no claim shall lie at the instance of the Government of Iraq, or of any person or body in Iraq, or of any person claiming through or for the benefit of any such person or body, in connection with any contract or other transaction where its performance was affected by reason of the measures taken by the Security Council in resolution 661 (1990) and related resolutions;

G

30. Decides that, in furtherance of its commitment to facilitate the repatriation of all Kuwaiti and third country nationals, Iraq shall extend all necessary cooperation to the International Committee of the Red Cross, providing lists of such persons, facilitating the access of the International Committee of the Red Cross to all such persons wherever located or detained and facilitating the search by the International Committee of the Red Cross for those Kuwaiti and third country nationals still unaccounted for;

31. Invites the International Committee of the Red Cross to keep the Secretary-General apprised as appropriate of all activities undertaken in connection with facilitating the repatriation or return of all Kuwaiti and third country nationals or their remains present in Iraq on or after 2 August 1990;

H

32. Requires Iraq to inform the Security Council that it will not commit or support any act of international terrorism or allow any organization directed towards commission of such acts to operate within its territory and to condemn unequivocally and renounce all acts, methods and practices of terrorism;

I

33. Declares that, upon official notification by Iraq to the Secretary-General and to the Security Council of its acceptance of the provisions above, a formal cease-fire is effective between Iraq and Kuwait and the Member States cooperating with Kuwait in accordance with resolution 678 (1990);

34. Decides to remain seized of the matter and to take such further steps as may be required for the implementation of the present resolution and to secure peace and security in the area.
And here is 687 so you can see what Iraq agreed to so we would CEASE-FIRE,
there is that word again, and pretell it is written all over these UN Resolutions.

Show me where it says that if Iraq is in material breach of the CEASE-FIRE the United States needs UN approval to go in to inforce the terms that were agreed apon in the CEASE-FIRE, dam there's that word again.

.
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Old 04-28-2007, 08:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
 
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Mike...many international law experts would argue that the US invasion of Iraq violated the UN Charter, specificially articles 41 and 42.
Article 41: The Security Council may decide what measures not involving the use of armed force are to be employed to give effect to its decisions, and it may call upon the Members of nations to apply such measures. These may include complete or partial interruption of economic relations and of rail, sea, air, postal, telegraphic, radio, and other means of communication and the severance of diplomatic relations.

Article 42: Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, (ie if Iraq did not comply fully with 1441) it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such actions may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by land, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.
1441 states specifically that it is "Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations" which includes articles 41 and 42

Here is the sequence that should have been followed to comply with the UN Charter, under which 1441 was acting:

Articles 41 and 42 impose a simple and unavoidable sequence: (1) effective preventative measures short of military conflict (ie 1441) should first be explored before (2) the Security Council can decide that every alternative short of military conflict has been exhausted without success (ie a new resolution) , whereupon (3) military conflict can finally be undertaken. Unavoidably, the second step necessitates a majority vote by the Security Council to mandate use of force.

The US and UK knew this and initially submitted a resolution that would have triggered article 42....when they didnt have the votes on the Security Council, they withdrew the resolution and declared unilaterally that they had the authority to use force under 1441.

I dont claim to be an expert on international law, but its seems pretty clear to me that the US/UK violated the UN Charter. Perhaps you can explain how they complied with article 42?
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Old 04-28-2007, 09:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmike
Host, what part of cease-fire do you not understand?


cease-fire or cease·fire (sēs'fīr')
n.
An order to stop firing.
Suspension of active hostilities; a truce.

See how it says suspension of hostilities? It does not state to end or terminate hostilities.

Iraq was in violation of the CEASE-FIRE, which in terms gave Bush every right to resume firing.

Resolution 1441 specifically stated:






And here is 687 so you can see what Iraq agreed to so we would CEASE-FIRE,
there is that word again, and pretell it is written all over these UN Resolutions.

Show me where it says that if Iraq is in material breach of the CEASE-FIRE the United States needs UN approval to go in to inforce the terms that were agreed apon in the CEASE-FIRE, dam there's that word again.

.
reconmike, this is what George W Bush told us as he was about to order unilateral invasion of Iraq, without approval from the UN Security Council. He told us that he would seek a UN Resolution that authorized the invasion of Iraq, but....when he obviously didn't have the votes for approval of the use of force by the Security Council, he ordered the invasion, anyway.

It's about proportionality, reconmike. The US and the UK, as the news report included in the thread OP describes....had been bombing the shit out of Iraq, including the described "100 war plane" attack, for at least eight months before the invasion was ordered by Bush.
Quote:
....U.S. and British warplanes have bombed more than 80 targets in Iraq's southern "no-fly" zone over the past five months, conducting an escalating air war even as U.N. weapons inspections proceed and diplomats look for ways to head off a full-scale war......
Read the following letter, reconmike. Not much of the rationale that Bush gave in that letter, turned out to be true. The difference now, is that the former chief intelligence officer of the US, George Tenet, has written in a book that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenet
.....“There was never a serious debate that I know of within the administration about the imminence of the Iraqi threat,” Mr. Tenet writes in a devastating judgment that is likely to be debated for many years.
Nor, he adds, “was there ever a significant discussion” about the possibility of containing Iraq without an invasion.....
How do the statements in Bush's official letter, square with what Tenet wrote, reconmike? After composing and submitting the letter to congress, Bush ordered a pre-emptive invasion that resulted in massive Iraqi civilian death and injury, widespread destruction of Iraq, toppled their government and destabilized their society, trigggered an influx, into Iraq, according to Bush or foreign terrorist fighters, resulted in the deaths of 3330 US military, and more than 20,000 injured, and is projected to burden the US with a total cost of $2 trillion:
Quote:
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
March 19, 2003

Presidential Letter
Text of a Letter from the President to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate

March 18, 2003

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030319-1.html
Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President

Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aihttp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050429/ai_n14605179/print
Independent, The (London): THE LEGALITYOF WAR: 'Regime change is no basis for war. Rememberded the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

Sincerely,

GEORGE W. BUSH
Articles of impeachment and a US senate trial are mechanisms to ascertain if Tenet is correct, and if Bush committed the crime of aggressive war. It's called the UNITED Nations, reconmike....and according to Tony Blair's legal counsel, Lord Goldsmith, only Bush & co., of all of the world's UN member governments, asserted that, <b>"the fact of whether Iraq is in breach is a matter of objective fact which may therefore be assessed by individual member states".</b>....and I guess that you believe it, too. So what?
Quote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...14605179/print
FindArticles > Independent, The (London) > Apr 29, 2005 > Article > Print friendly

THE LEGALITYOF WAR: 'Regime change is no basis for war. Remember
Marie Woolf

THE DANGERS OF COURT ACTION IN RESPONSE TO WAR IN IRAQ

'In assessing the risks of acting on the basis of a reasonably arguable case, you will wish to take account of the ways in which the matter might be brought before a court. We cannot absolutely rule out that some state strongly opposed to military action might try to bring such a case. It is also possible that CND may try to bring further action to stop military action in the domestic courts. Two further possibilities are an attempted prosecution for murder on the grounds that the military action is unlawful and an attempted prosecution for the crime of aggression.'

ANALYSIS

Lord Goldsmith warns explicitly of the dangers of launching a military strike without clear authorisation. He says Tony Blair could face prosecution under common law in the UK courts. The UK, and by implication British troops, could even find themselves tried for murder.

REGIME CHANGE AND A PROPORTIONATE RESPONSE

'I must stress that the lawfulness of military action depends not only on the existence of a legal basis, but also on the question of proportionality. That is not to say that action may not be taken to remove Saddam Hussein from power if it can be demonstrated that such action is a necessary and proportionate measure to secure the disarmament of Iraq. But regime change cannot be the objective of military action. This should be borne in mind in considering the list of military targets and in making public statements about any campaign.'

ANALYSIS

Lord Goldsmith is warning Tony Blair against using excessive force in achieving his aim. He says there are legal implications for Britain launching a full-scale invasion without curbing its fire power in the interests of 'proportionality'. The Attorney General was effectively saying that to flatten Saddam Hussein's palaces, or the homes of his supporters, or to bomb the whole country into submission, could be regarded as a disproportionate response. He then tells Mr Blair to watch what he says. A slip of the tongue suggesting that the use of military force was designed for anything more than ridding Iraq of WMD could land him in hot water legally. It seems Mr Blair did not take the Attorney General's advice on this point too literally. Asked about the advice yesterday, he said: 'I took the view then, [and] I take the view now that it was better for this country's security and the security of the world to remove Saddam and put him in prison rather than have him in power.'

SELF DEFENCE

'Force may be used in self-defence if there is an actual or imminent threat of an armed attack: the use of force must be necessary, ie the only means of averting an attack: and the force used must be a proportionate response. In my opinion there must be some degree of imminence. I am aware that the USA has been arguing for recognition of a broad doctrine of a right to use force to pre- empt danger in the future.'

ANALYSIS

This may go to the heart of the claim made by Tony Blair that Saddam could deploy weapons of mass destruction within 45 minutes of an order to do so. The claim was discredited after it was revealed that it was based on intelligence that was subsequently withdrawn. Lord Goldsmith raises caveats about claiming that invading Iraq is a form of self protection and effectively knocks it down as a legal justification for force. On the US doctrine of preemptive self defence, he says: 'This is not a doctrine which, in my opinion, exists or is recognised in international law.'

<h3>WHO JUDGES WHEN IRAQ IS IN 'MATERIAL BREACH' OF UN RESOLUTIONS?

'The UK has consistently taken the view that, as the ceasefire conditions were set by the Security Council in resolution 687, it is for the council to assess whether any such breach of those obligations has occurred. The US have a rather different view: they maintain that the fact of whether Iraq is in breach is a matter of objective fact which may therefore be assessed by individual member states. I am not aware of any other state which supports this view.'</h3>

ANALYSIS

Lord Goldsmith is agreeing with Foreign Office lawyers who advised Jack Straw that the invasion of Iraq would be illegal without an additional ruling by the security council. Like the Foreign Office lawyers, including deputy legal adviser Elizabeth Wilmshurst, who resigned in protest at Goldsmith's final view that the war was legal, he observes that the US believes that any member of the Security Council can themselves make such an assessment " without agreement from their Security Council colleagues. But Lord Goldsmith says the United States is isolated in this view, and Britain does not agree with Washington.

It is somewhat ironic that, as the Butler report reveals, Lord Goldsmith soon afterwards asked the Prime Minister for his personal view of whether Saddam Hussein had breached the terms of the UN resolutions. In a letter dated 14 March 2003, to Tony Blair's private secretary, he asks for his personal confirmation that 'it is unequivocally the Prime Minister's view that Iraq has committed further material breaches '. The reply was that it was 'indeed the Prime Minister's unequivocal view that Iraq is in further material breach'.

IS UN RESOLUTION 1441 ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY WAR?

'The key question is whether resolution 1441 has the effect of providing such authorisation. As you are aware, the argument that resolution 1441 itself provides the authorisation to use force depends on the revival of the express authorisation to use force given in 1990 by Security Council resolution 678. The revival argument is controversial. It is not widely accepted among academic commentators. I believe that the arguments in support of the revival argument are stronger following adoption of resolution 1441. The question is who makes the assessment of what constitutes a sufficiently serious breach. On the UK view of the revival argument (though not the US view) that can only be the Security Council, because only it can decide if a violation is sufficiently serious to revive the authorisation to use force.'

ANALYSIS

Lord Goldsmith weighs up the pros and cons of reviving previous UN resolutions to justify force. He says the entire Security Council should decide whether Saddam Hussein's violations are so serious they revive preexisting authorisation for military action. On 17 March, after it became clear there would be no second UN resolution, Lord Goldsmith set out a fresh legal view which explains why he thought military action is lawful because of the revival of preexisting UN resolutions 678, 687 and 1441.

The Attorney General's legal view of 17 March came in response to a rather one-sided question. The Attorney General was asked by Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, a Labour peer: 'What is the Attorney General's view of the legal basis for the use of force against Iraq?' He was not asked for a balanced view or for what the pros or cons were, or the legal basis against. In lawyer's terms, the Attorney General answered the question directly. This may account for why it was only one page long.

GOLDSMITH MEETS THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION

'I have also had the opportunity to hear the views of the US administration ... They maintain that the fact of whether Iraq is in breach is a matter of objective fact which may therefore be assessed by individual member states.'

ANALYSIS

This sheds some light on the mysterious visit by Lord Goldsmith to see the Bush administration in February 2003. It hints that Washington strongly tried to persuade a sceptical Attorney General that war without further UN backing would be legal.

TIMING

'You have asked me for advice on the legality of military action against Iraq without a further resolution on the Security Council. This is, of course, a matter we have discussed before.'

ANALYSIS

This shows that Tony Blair and Lord Goldsmith held informal discussions about the legality of war before 17 March. The question is how far back did these discussions go? Did they go back to the summit between Blair and Bush in April 2002 in Crawford, Texas? We already know that Tony Blair did not ask Lord Goldsmith in writing to provide legal advice. So the request for a legal opinion must have been oral unless any letter from Tony Blair was subsequently destroyed. Downing Street told The Independent this month it had no instructions to the Attorney General about the legal basis for war in its files. The question that must be answered now is: when was the request made?
Here is the background on the legal "experts" who "share" your opinion, reconmike:
Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1474337,00.html
Iraq, the secret US visit, and an angry military chief

The legality of the Iraq war exploded on to the agenda last week, causing chaos to Labour strategy. Here we reveal the key US officials who persuaded Britain that invasion was legal - and the astonishing reaction from our military chiefs

Antony Barnett, Gaby Hinsliff and Martin Bright
Sunday May 1, 2005

........ The US connection

On the sixth floor of the State Department in Foggy Bottom sits the recently vacated office of William Taft IV. Despite the peculiarity of his name, few in Britain will have heard of him or his distinguished Republican pedigree.

Yet The Observer can reveal that this great-grandson of a former Republican president played a critical role in persuading Goldsmith's that the war against Iraq was legal. Taft was one of five powerful lawyers in the Bush administration who met the Attorney General in Washington in February 2003 to push their view that a second UN resolution was superfluous.

Goldsmith, who had been expressing doubts about the legality of any proposed war, was sent to Washington by the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, to 'put some steel in his spine', as one official has said.

On 11 February, Goldsmith met Taft, a former US ambassador to Nato who was then chief legal adviser to the Secretary of State, Colin Powell. After a gruelling 90-minute meeting in Taft's conference room 6419, Goldsmith then met the US Attorney General, John Ashcroft, followed by a formidable triumvirate including Judge Al Gonzales, Bush's chief lawyer at the White House.

Goldsmith also met William 'Jim' Haynes, who is Defence Secretary's Donald Rumsfeld's chief legal adviser, and John Bellinger, legal adviser to Condoleezza Rice, then the National Security Adviser. This group of lawyers is as renowned for fearsome intellect as it is for hard-line conservative politics. Bellinger is alleged to have said: 'We had trouble with your Attorney; we got there eventually.' From copies of Goldsmith's legal advice to the Prime Minister published last week, it is clear that these meetings had a pivotal role in shaping Goldsmith's view that there was a 'reasonable case' for war.

Goldsmith states: 'Having regard to the information on the negotiating history which I have been given and to the arguments of the US Administration which I heard in Washington, I accept that a reasonable case can be made that Resolution 1441 is capable in principle of reviving the authorisation in 678 [which approved of military force in the first Gulf war] without a further resolution.'

In an exclusive interview with The Observer, Taft has for the first time disclosed details of Goldsmith's mysterious visit to the US capital. Up until now, the British government has been reluctant to give any details of his meeting with the powerful network of lawyers in Bush's inner sanctum who helped persuade him that a second UN resolution was not necessary.

Taft reveals the role Straw played in fixing up these meetings and how pleased the US lawyers were when they heard Goldsmith's final 'unequivocal' advice delivered to Parliament on the eve of invasion.

<h3>Taft, a former deputy defence secretary under President Ronald Reagan, was the man to do that. He had been credited with masterminding the doctrine of 'pre-emption', which argues that a state can take military action to deter an attack. Crucially, Taft was also personally responsible in 2002 for drawing up 1441, which called on Saddam fully to comply with demands to disarm or face 'serious consequences'.</h3>

Speaking from his country home in Lorton, Virginia, Taft explains how Straw set up Goldsmith's visit. 'It was something that grew out of a series of conversations between Secretary Powell and Secretary of State Straw,' said Taft. 'The question was: in particular circumstances - namely the failure of Iraq to comply with resolution 1441 - would the use of force be authorised in the absence of a further decision by the Security Council? We had reached the conclusion that, while a second resolution would be desirable, it was not necessary.

'As a legal matter, 1441 had been drafted in such a way that the Security Council was required to meet and discuss the subject in the absence of Iraq's compliance, but no further decision was needed. Secretary Powell had shared that conclusion with Mr Straw and Mr Straw said his lawyers were looking at this, the Attorney General in particular, and asked, could he meet Secretary Powell's lawyers? Because of that, Lord Goldsmith arranged to talk to us about our views.'

Taft, who has since left the State Department to resume work in the private sector, said: 'Lord Goldsmith met with me and one or or two others in the State Department most of the morning. He then met with our Attorney General, and met with people at the Pentagon - Jim Haynes, and Judge Gonzales and John Bellinger.'

<b>To human rights groups and many international lawyers, this roll-call of Republican lawyers will ring alarm bells.</b> Gonzales, the 49-year-old son of immigrants from Texas, has been at the heart of controversy over detainees in Guantanámo Bay and prisoner abuse scandals at Abu Ghraib.

After a political battle in Washington, Bush appointed Gonzales US Attorney General earlier this year, despite leaks of memos from him that appeared to authorise the use of torture on 'enemy combatants' not categorised as prisoners of war. Critics say his interpretation of guidelines on torture paved the way for human rights abuses at Abu Ghraib.

He was criticised after writing a memo to the President in which he said the war against terrorism was a 'new kind of war' that renders obsolete the Geneva Conventions' strict limitations on questioning enemy prisoners and renders 'quaint' some of its provisions.

Haynes, another Texan, was appointed to the top legal job in the Pentagon in May 2001 and has been a controversial architect of Bush's 'war on terror' under the wing of Rumsfeld. Like Gonzales, he has been embroiled in the Abu Ghraib scandal. His nomination as a federal judge last year led to a 35,000-name petition being sent to the White House demanding the withdrawal of his name.

Philippe Sands QC, an international lawyer whose book Lawless World re-ignited the row over the Attorney General's legal advice said: 'How delightful that a Labour government should seek assistance from US lawyers so closely associated with neo-con efforts to destroy the international legal order.'

Taft denies that any undue pressure was put on Goldsmith or that the British Attorney General expressed grave doubts about the legality of any war. He said: 'We all told him what our views were in the same way ... although he didn't indicate at the time what his own conclusion would be. Our discussions were very straight up and he was looking to understand our argument.'

Laughing he added: 'I will say that, when we heard his statement in Parliament, which was the next thing we heard about, what he said sounded very familiar.'
The visit to Washington   click to show 
Your argument, reconmike, seems to me to be akin to a game of "pocket pool". Do you know what that is? The Bush admin., neocon lawyers wrote resolution 1441 to give these co-conspirators who launched a war of aggression, "an out".

The problem is, if Tenet is accurate in his book, they (Bush and his neocon enablers) are still guilty of planning and carrying out the ultimate crime against humanity, aggressive war. Those who died in the war that didn't have to happen....the war that Tenet says was never even debated as to whether it was necessary or avoidable, are victims of the same crime of aggressive war that the allies at Nuremberg hanged the leaders of another aggressor nation that waged aggressive war, for ordering and carrying out.

Tenet "fingers them", with these damning statements in his book. Can Tenet's statements and what they imply, be ignored by democrats in the house and senate who have the authority to find out if they are accurate, or will the democrats use the authority that they gained in January to make Tenet, and then Bush and Cheney explain themselves and their roles in the invasion and occupation of Iraq?
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Old 04-28-2007, 09:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Mike...many international law experts...
...AND Willravel...I've made the argument several times. I've since found two incredible pages that could help:
http://www.wslfweb.org/docs/Iraqstatemt.htm
http://electroniciraq.net/cgi-bin/ar...view.cgi/6/265

Enjoy.
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