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Old 04-28-2007, 09:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
host
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reconmike
Host, what part of cease-fire do you not understand?


cease-fire or cease·fire (sēs'fīr')
n.
An order to stop firing.
Suspension of active hostilities; a truce.

See how it says suspension of hostilities? It does not state to end or terminate hostilities.

Iraq was in violation of the CEASE-FIRE, which in terms gave Bush every right to resume firing.

Resolution 1441 specifically stated:






And here is 687 so you can see what Iraq agreed to so we would CEASE-FIRE,
there is that word again, and pretell it is written all over these UN Resolutions.

Show me where it says that if Iraq is in material breach of the CEASE-FIRE the United States needs UN approval to go in to inforce the terms that were agreed apon in the CEASE-FIRE, dam there's that word again.

.
reconmike, this is what George W Bush told us as he was about to order unilateral invasion of Iraq, without approval from the UN Security Council. He told us that he would seek a UN Resolution that authorized the invasion of Iraq, but....when he obviously didn't have the votes for approval of the use of force by the Security Council, he ordered the invasion, anyway.

It's about proportionality, reconmike. The US and the UK, as the news report included in the thread OP describes....had been bombing the shit out of Iraq, including the described "100 war plane" attack, for at least eight months before the invasion was ordered by Bush.
Quote:
....U.S. and British warplanes have bombed more than 80 targets in Iraq's southern "no-fly" zone over the past five months, conducting an escalating air war even as U.N. weapons inspections proceed and diplomats look for ways to head off a full-scale war......
Read the following letter, reconmike. Not much of the rationale that Bush gave in that letter, turned out to be true. The difference now, is that the former chief intelligence officer of the US, George Tenet, has written in a book that:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenet
.....“There was never a serious debate that I know of within the administration about the imminence of the Iraqi threat,” Mr. Tenet writes in a devastating judgment that is likely to be debated for many years.
Nor, he adds, “was there ever a significant discussion” about the possibility of containing Iraq without an invasion.....
How do the statements in Bush's official letter, square with what Tenet wrote, reconmike? After composing and submitting the letter to congress, Bush ordered a pre-emptive invasion that resulted in massive Iraqi civilian death and injury, widespread destruction of Iraq, toppled their government and destabilized their society, trigggered an influx, into Iraq, according to Bush or foreign terrorist fighters, resulted in the deaths of 3330 US military, and more than 20,000 injured, and is projected to burden the US with a total cost of $2 trillion:
Quote:
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
March 19, 2003

Presidential Letter
Text of a Letter from the President to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President Pro Tempore of the Senate

March 18, 2003

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...0030319-1.html
Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Mr. President

Consistent with section 3(b) of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public Law 107-243), and based on information available to me, including that in the enclosed document, I determine that:

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic and other peaceful means alone will neither (A) adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq nor (B) likely lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to the Constitution and Public Law 107-243 is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aihttp://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20050429/ai_n14605179/print
Independent, The (London): THE LEGALITYOF WAR: 'Regime change is no basis for war. Rememberded the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

Sincerely,

GEORGE W. BUSH
Articles of impeachment and a US senate trial are mechanisms to ascertain if Tenet is correct, and if Bush committed the crime of aggressive war. It's called the UNITED Nations, reconmike....and according to Tony Blair's legal counsel, Lord Goldsmith, only Bush & co., of all of the world's UN member governments, asserted that, <b>"the fact of whether Iraq is in breach is a matter of objective fact which may therefore be assessed by individual member states".</b>....and I guess that you believe it, too. So what?
Quote:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...14605179/print
FindArticles > Independent, The (London) > Apr 29, 2005 > Article > Print friendly

THE LEGALITYOF WAR: 'Regime change is no basis for war. Remember
Marie Woolf

THE DANGERS OF COURT ACTION IN RESPONSE TO WAR IN IRAQ

'In assessing the risks of acting on the basis of a reasonably arguable case, you will wish to take account of the ways in which the matter might be brought before a court. We cannot absolutely rule out that some state strongly opposed to military action might try to bring such a case. It is also possible that CND may try to bring further action to stop military action in the domestic courts. Two further possibilities are an attempted prosecution for murder on the grounds that the military action is unlawful and an attempted prosecution for the crime of aggression.'

ANALYSIS

Lord Goldsmith warns explicitly of the dangers of launching a military strike without clear authorisation. He says Tony Blair could face prosecution under common law in the UK courts. The UK, and by implication British troops, could even find themselves tried for murder.

REGIME CHANGE AND A PROPORTIONATE RESPONSE

'I must stress that the lawfulness of military action depends not only on the existence of a legal basis, but also on the question of proportionality. That is not to say that action may not be taken to remove Saddam Hussein from power if it can be demonstrated that such action is a necessary and proportionate measure to secure the disarmament of Iraq. But regime change cannot be the objective of military action. This should be borne in mind in considering the list of military targets and in making public statements about any campaign.'

ANALYSIS

Lord Goldsmith is warning Tony Blair against using excessive force in achieving his aim. He says there are legal implications for Britain launching a full-scale invasion without curbing its fire power in the interests of 'proportionality'. The Attorney General was effectively saying that to flatten Saddam Hussein's palaces, or the homes of his supporters, or to bomb the whole country into submission, could be regarded as a disproportionate response. He then tells Mr Blair to watch what he says. A slip of the tongue suggesting that the use of military force was designed for anything more than ridding Iraq of WMD could land him in hot water legally. It seems Mr Blair did not take the Attorney General's advice on this point too literally. Asked about the advice yesterday, he said: 'I took the view then, [and] I take the view now that it was better for this country's security and the security of the world to remove Saddam and put him in prison rather than have him in power.'

SELF DEFENCE

'Force may be used in self-defence if there is an actual or imminent threat of an armed attack: the use of force must be necessary, ie the only means of averting an attack: and the force used must be a proportionate response. In my opinion there must be some degree of imminence. I am aware that the USA has been arguing for recognition of a broad doctrine of a right to use force to pre- empt danger in the future.'

ANALYSIS

This may go to the heart of the claim made by Tony Blair that Saddam could deploy weapons of mass destruction within 45 minutes of an order to do so. The claim was discredited after it was revealed that it was based on intelligence that was subsequently withdrawn. Lord Goldsmith raises caveats about claiming that invading Iraq is a form of self protection and effectively knocks it down as a legal justification for force. On the US doctrine of preemptive self defence, he says: 'This is not a doctrine which, in my opinion, exists or is recognised in international law.'

<h3>WHO JUDGES WHEN IRAQ IS IN 'MATERIAL BREACH' OF UN RESOLUTIONS?

'The UK has consistently taken the view that, as the ceasefire conditions were set by the Security Council in resolution 687, it is for the council to assess whether any such breach of those obligations has occurred. The US have a rather different view: they maintain that the fact of whether Iraq is in breach is a matter of objective fact which may therefore be assessed by individual member states. I am not aware of any other state which supports this view.'</h3>

ANALYSIS

Lord Goldsmith is agreeing with Foreign Office lawyers who advised Jack Straw that the invasion of Iraq would be illegal without an additional ruling by the security council. Like the Foreign Office lawyers, including deputy legal adviser Elizabeth Wilmshurst, who resigned in protest at Goldsmith's final view that the war was legal, he observes that the US believes that any member of the Security Council can themselves make such an assessment " without agreement from their Security Council colleagues. But Lord Goldsmith says the United States is isolated in this view, and Britain does not agree with Washington.

It is somewhat ironic that, as the Butler report reveals, Lord Goldsmith soon afterwards asked the Prime Minister for his personal view of whether Saddam Hussein had breached the terms of the UN resolutions. In a letter dated 14 March 2003, to Tony Blair's private secretary, he asks for his personal confirmation that 'it is unequivocally the Prime Minister's view that Iraq has committed further material breaches '. The reply was that it was 'indeed the Prime Minister's unequivocal view that Iraq is in further material breach'.

IS UN RESOLUTION 1441 ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY WAR?

'The key question is whether resolution 1441 has the effect of providing such authorisation. As you are aware, the argument that resolution 1441 itself provides the authorisation to use force depends on the revival of the express authorisation to use force given in 1990 by Security Council resolution 678. The revival argument is controversial. It is not widely accepted among academic commentators. I believe that the arguments in support of the revival argument are stronger following adoption of resolution 1441. The question is who makes the assessment of what constitutes a sufficiently serious breach. On the UK view of the revival argument (though not the US view) that can only be the Security Council, because only it can decide if a violation is sufficiently serious to revive the authorisation to use force.'

ANALYSIS

Lord Goldsmith weighs up the pros and cons of reviving previous UN resolutions to justify force. He says the entire Security Council should decide whether Saddam Hussein's violations are so serious they revive preexisting authorisation for military action. On 17 March, after it became clear there would be no second UN resolution, Lord Goldsmith set out a fresh legal view which explains why he thought military action is lawful because of the revival of preexisting UN resolutions 678, 687 and 1441.

The Attorney General's legal view of 17 March came in response to a rather one-sided question. The Attorney General was asked by Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale, a Labour peer: 'What is the Attorney General's view of the legal basis for the use of force against Iraq?' He was not asked for a balanced view or for what the pros or cons were, or the legal basis against. In lawyer's terms, the Attorney General answered the question directly. This may account for why it was only one page long.

GOLDSMITH MEETS THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION

'I have also had the opportunity to hear the views of the US administration ... They maintain that the fact of whether Iraq is in breach is a matter of objective fact which may therefore be assessed by individual member states.'

ANALYSIS

This sheds some light on the mysterious visit by Lord Goldsmith to see the Bush administration in February 2003. It hints that Washington strongly tried to persuade a sceptical Attorney General that war without further UN backing would be legal.

TIMING

'You have asked me for advice on the legality of military action against Iraq without a further resolution on the Security Council. This is, of course, a matter we have discussed before.'

ANALYSIS

This shows that Tony Blair and Lord Goldsmith held informal discussions about the legality of war before 17 March. The question is how far back did these discussions go? Did they go back to the summit between Blair and Bush in April 2002 in Crawford, Texas? We already know that Tony Blair did not ask Lord Goldsmith in writing to provide legal advice. So the request for a legal opinion must have been oral unless any letter from Tony Blair was subsequently destroyed. Downing Street told The Independent this month it had no instructions to the Attorney General about the legal basis for war in its files. The question that must be answered now is: when was the request made?
Here is the background on the legal "experts" who "share" your opinion, reconmike:
Quote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1474337,00.html
Iraq, the secret US visit, and an angry military chief

The legality of the Iraq war exploded on to the agenda last week, causing chaos to Labour strategy. Here we reveal the key US officials who persuaded Britain that invasion was legal - and the astonishing reaction from our military chiefs

Antony Barnett, Gaby Hinsliff and Martin Bright
Sunday May 1, 2005

........ The US connection

On the sixth floor of the State Department in Foggy Bottom sits the recently vacated office of William Taft IV. Despite the peculiarity of his name, few in Britain will have heard of him or his distinguished Republican pedigree.

Yet The Observer can reveal that this great-grandson of a former Republican president played a critical role in persuading Goldsmith's that the war against Iraq was legal. Taft was one of five powerful lawyers in the Bush administration who met the Attorney General in Washington in February 2003 to push their view that a second UN resolution was superfluous.

Goldsmith, who had been expressing doubts about the legality of any proposed war, was sent to Washington by the Foreign Secretary, Jack Straw, to 'put some steel in his spine', as one official has said.

On 11 February, Goldsmith met Taft, a former US ambassador to Nato who was then chief legal adviser to the Secretary of State, Colin Powell. After a gruelling 90-minute meeting in Taft's conference room 6419, Goldsmith then met the US Attorney General, John Ashcroft, followed by a formidable triumvirate including Judge Al Gonzales, Bush's chief lawyer at the White House.

Goldsmith also met William 'Jim' Haynes, who is Defence Secretary's Donald Rumsfeld's chief legal adviser, and John Bellinger, legal adviser to Condoleezza Rice, then the National Security Adviser. This group of lawyers is as renowned for fearsome intellect as it is for hard-line conservative politics. Bellinger is alleged to have said: 'We had trouble with your Attorney; we got there eventually.' From copies of Goldsmith's legal advice to the Prime Minister published last week, it is clear that these meetings had a pivotal role in shaping Goldsmith's view that there was a 'reasonable case' for war.

Goldsmith states: 'Having regard to the information on the negotiating history which I have been given and to the arguments of the US Administration which I heard in Washington, I accept that a reasonable case can be made that Resolution 1441 is capable in principle of reviving the authorisation in 678 [which approved of military force in the first Gulf war] without a further resolution.'

In an exclusive interview with The Observer, Taft has for the first time disclosed details of Goldsmith's mysterious visit to the US capital. Up until now, the British government has been reluctant to give any details of his meeting with the powerful network of lawyers in Bush's inner sanctum who helped persuade him that a second UN resolution was not necessary.

Taft reveals the role Straw played in fixing up these meetings and how pleased the US lawyers were when they heard Goldsmith's final 'unequivocal' advice delivered to Parliament on the eve of invasion.

<h3>Taft, a former deputy defence secretary under President Ronald Reagan, was the man to do that. He had been credited with masterminding the doctrine of 'pre-emption', which argues that a state can take military action to deter an attack. Crucially, Taft was also personally responsible in 2002 for drawing up 1441, which called on Saddam fully to comply with demands to disarm or face 'serious consequences'.</h3>

Speaking from his country home in Lorton, Virginia, Taft explains how Straw set up Goldsmith's visit. 'It was something that grew out of a series of conversations between Secretary Powell and Secretary of State Straw,' said Taft. 'The question was: in particular circumstances - namely the failure of Iraq to comply with resolution 1441 - would the use of force be authorised in the absence of a further decision by the Security Council? We had reached the conclusion that, while a second resolution would be desirable, it was not necessary.

'As a legal matter, 1441 had been drafted in such a way that the Security Council was required to meet and discuss the subject in the absence of Iraq's compliance, but no further decision was needed. Secretary Powell had shared that conclusion with Mr Straw and Mr Straw said his lawyers were looking at this, the Attorney General in particular, and asked, could he meet Secretary Powell's lawyers? Because of that, Lord Goldsmith arranged to talk to us about our views.'

Taft, who has since left the State Department to resume work in the private sector, said: 'Lord Goldsmith met with me and one or or two others in the State Department most of the morning. He then met with our Attorney General, and met with people at the Pentagon - Jim Haynes, and Judge Gonzales and John Bellinger.'

<b>To human rights groups and many international lawyers, this roll-call of Republican lawyers will ring alarm bells.</b> Gonzales, the 49-year-old son of immigrants from Texas, has been at the heart of controversy over detainees in Guantanámo Bay and prisoner abuse scandals at Abu Ghraib.

After a political battle in Washington, Bush appointed Gonzales US Attorney General earlier this year, despite leaks of memos from him that appeared to authorise the use of torture on 'enemy combatants' not categorised as prisoners of war. Critics say his interpretation of guidelines on torture paved the way for human rights abuses at Abu Ghraib.

He was criticised after writing a memo to the President in which he said the war against terrorism was a 'new kind of war' that renders obsolete the Geneva Conventions' strict limitations on questioning enemy prisoners and renders 'quaint' some of its provisions.

Haynes, another Texan, was appointed to the top legal job in the Pentagon in May 2001 and has been a controversial architect of Bush's 'war on terror' under the wing of Rumsfeld. Like Gonzales, he has been embroiled in the Abu Ghraib scandal. His nomination as a federal judge last year led to a 35,000-name petition being sent to the White House demanding the withdrawal of his name.

Philippe Sands QC, an international lawyer whose book Lawless World re-ignited the row over the Attorney General's legal advice said: 'How delightful that a Labour government should seek assistance from US lawyers so closely associated with neo-con efforts to destroy the international legal order.'

Taft denies that any undue pressure was put on Goldsmith or that the British Attorney General expressed grave doubts about the legality of any war. He said: 'We all told him what our views were in the same way ... although he didn't indicate at the time what his own conclusion would be. Our discussions were very straight up and he was looking to understand our argument.'

Laughing he added: 'I will say that, when we heard his statement in Parliament, which was the next thing we heard about, what he said sounded very familiar.'
The visit to Washington   click to show 
Your argument, reconmike, seems to me to be akin to a game of "pocket pool". Do you know what that is? The Bush admin., neocon lawyers wrote resolution 1441 to give these co-conspirators who launched a war of aggression, "an out".

The problem is, if Tenet is accurate in his book, they (Bush and his neocon enablers) are still guilty of planning and carrying out the ultimate crime against humanity, aggressive war. Those who died in the war that didn't have to happen....the war that Tenet says was never even debated as to whether it was necessary or avoidable, are victims of the same crime of aggressive war that the allies at Nuremberg hanged the leaders of another aggressor nation that waged aggressive war, for ordering and carrying out.

Tenet "fingers them", with these damning statements in his book. Can Tenet's statements and what they imply, be ignored by democrats in the house and senate who have the authority to find out if they are accurate, or will the democrats use the authority that they gained in January to make Tenet, and then Bush and Cheney explain themselves and their roles in the invasion and occupation of Iraq?
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