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View Poll Results: Will "the Economy" be the most Prominent 2008 Campaign Issue
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Old 06-20-2007, 09:44 PM   #81 (permalink)
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To put this article in perspective:
1.) It comes at the height of the annual residential real estate "selling" season, while US stock market indexes, DJIA and S&P 500 are posting record highs.

2.) It comes as the subprime CDO purchase price is at a new low, less than 60 cents per dollar of face value of the bonds made up of subrprime mortgage loans, packaged in tranches ($10 million "chunks") to be sold to clueless pension funds: ABX-HE-BBB- 07-1
http://www.markit.com/information/affiliations/abx

3.) It comes during a time when the leading packager and marketer of these "junk mortgage loans", Bear Stearns becomes a victim of it's own bullshit:

Quote:
http://news.google.com/news/url?sa=t...cid=1117389741
<b>Merrill Kicks Off Auction for Assets in Bear Stearns Fund</b>

.....At stake is this: if the assets — securities and bonds backed by subprime mortgages that can be difficult to value — are sold at prices well below where they are currently valued, the reverberations across Wall Street would be strong. Not only would Merrill be forced to post losses on its holdings, but other banks, hedge funds and investors owning similar securities would have to mark down the value of those holdings to new, lower prices.

Started just last year, the Bear Stearns hedge fund was hit by a combination of bad bets on bonds backed by subprime mortgages as well as high levels of leverage. Investors originally put $600 million into the fund and another $6 billion was borrowed from the Wall Street banks......

Quote:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...qZQ&refer=home
Rate Rise Pushes Housing, Economy to `Blood Bath' (Update2)

By Kathleen M. Howley

June 20 (Bloomberg) -- The worst is yet to come for the U.S. housing market.

The jump in 30-year mortgage rates by more than a half a percentage point to 6.74 percent in the past five weeks is putting a crimp on borrowers with the best credit just as a crackdown in subprime lending standards limits the pool of qualified buyers. The national median home price is poised for its first annual decline since the Great Depression, and the supply of unsold homes is at a record 4.2 million, the National Association of Realtors reported.

``It's a blood bath,'' said Mark Kiesel, executive vice president of Newport Beach, California-based Pacific Investment Management Co., the manager of $668 billion in bond funds. ``We're talking about a two- to three-year downturn that will take a whole host of characters with it, from job creation to consumer confidence. Eventually it will take the stock market and corporate profit.''

Confidence among U.S. homebuilders fell in June to the lowest since February 1991, according to the National Association of Home Builders/Wells Fargo index released this week. Housing starts declined in May for the first time in four months, the Commerce Department reported yesterday. New-home sales will decline 33 percent from 2005's peak to the end of this year, according to the Realtors' group, exceeding the 25 percent three-year drop in 1991 that helped spark a recession.

`Economic Recession'

``It's not just a housing recession anymore, it looks more and more like an economic recession,'' said Nouriel Roubini, a Clinton administration Treasury Department director and economic adviser who now runs Roubini Global Economics in New York.

Goldman Sachs Group Inc., the world's biggest securities firm, and Bear Stearns Cos., the largest underwriter of mortgage-backed securities in 2006, said last week that rising foreclosures reduced their earnings. Bear Stearns said profit fell 10 percent, and Goldman reported a 1 percent gain, the smallest in three quarters. Both firms are based in New York.

The investment banks, insurance companies, pension funds and asset-management firms that hold some of the U.S.'s $6 trillion of mortgage-backed securities have yet to suffer the full effect of subprime loans gone bad, said David Viniar, Goldman's chief financial officer. Subprime mortgages, given to people with bad or limited credit histories, account for about $800 billion of the market.

``I continue to believe that we haven't seen the bottom in the subprime market,'' Viniar said on a June 14 conference call with reporters. ``There will be more pain felt by people as that works through the system.''

He didn't return calls this week seeking additional comments.

`Drag on the Economy'

``This has been a drag on the economy,'' Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said at a press briefing today after he testified in front of the House Financial Services Committee. <b>``I do believe that we are at or near the bottom.''</b>

Homebuilding stocks are down 20 percent this year after falling 20 percent in 2006, according to the Standard & Poor's Supercomposite Homebuilding Index of 16 companies. Before last year, the index had gained sixfold in five years.

``There isn't a recovery about to happen,'' said Ara Hovnanian, chief executive officer of Hovnanian Enterprises Inc., the Red Bank, New Jersey-based homebuilder. The company's stock tumbled 42 percent this year through yesterday.

The share of people taking out all types of adjustable-rate home loans averaged 29 percent during the past three years, compared with the 17 percent average of the prior three years, according to data compiled by Mclean, Virginia-based Freddie Mac.

Higher fixed mortgage rates and stricter lending standards mean some of those borrowers won't be able to refinance into fixed- rate loans. Many of them have seen their home's value drop even as their interest rates adjust higher.

`Millions of People'

``When all these people see their mortgage payment and it's up 40 or 50 percent, they're going to say, `We can't stay in this house,''' Pimco's Kiesel said. ``And there are millions of people in this situation.''

The average U.S. rate for a 30-year fixed mortgage was 6.74 percent last week, up from 6.15 percent at the beginning of May, according to Freddie Mac, the second-largest source of money for home loans. That adds $116 a month to the payment for a $300,000 loan and about $42,000 over the life of the mortgage.

The recent increase in mortgage rates is the biggest spike since 2004. The change means buyers can afford 8 percent less house than they could five weeks ago, Kiesel said.

``Prices are going lower,''
he said.   click to show 
This "wealth destruction" process is playing out even more rapidly than I thought that it would when I started this thread. If you purchased your home recently, you are trapped in it, most likely, for a long, long time. New home construction is down 24 percent, vs. a year ago, and I predict that we are only in the beginning of a decline that will take down the entire US economy, and maybe your job and your financial soundness.

It won't go down without a fight...there will be much manipulation from the major brokerages, banks, and from GSE's like Fannie and Freddie, and from the Fed itself. I predict that treasury secretary and former Goldman Sachs chairman Hank Paulsen will be telling us that he "sees the bottom", until he is replaced on January 20, 2009. I predict that the 2008 election will be about the economy, and that we will live through ten years of misery and economic dislocation not witnessed since the 1930's. What is coming ought to begin to scare the shit out of you, but denial is a pretty powerful drug.

If this forum is still here, I think that I'll have plenty of bad news to post on here for a long time......and it didn't have to be this way...these criminals in financial services and in the government just couldn't resist. Most of "the rest of us" have a good portion of our net worth tied up in real estate, and this is a process to separate us from our net worth. The bottom 90 percent of us own just 32 percent of the entirety of assets in the US.....watch who those assets flow away from. in this process, and who they flow to.....it should be easy to figure out what the 2005 Bankruptcy "reform" act was intended to strangle. Let us watch to see who wakes up around here and who continues in blissful slumber. I predict that America is going to get to see the consequences of vote suppression since the 2000 election, as well as the consequences of the projection of the political influence of the christian right.

Last edited by host; 06-20-2007 at 09:49 PM..
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Old 06-21-2007, 07:05 AM   #82 (permalink)
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One of the basic questions to ask when analyzing the economic impact of current events is who are the winners and who are the losers from an economic point of view. Short of major panic, when hedge funds fail the biggest losers are often the biggest risk takers. Buying a home has never been an overly risky investment. I guess some see the worst is yet to come, others don't.

From today's WSJ.

Quote:
This drama is being watched very closely on Wall Street for several reasons. One is the tangle that so many big Wall Street players now find themselves in over the hedge funds trades. Another is the scale of the hedge funds; as recently as March 31, they held more than $20 billion in investments in securities and derivatives, not to mention billions more in bets that certain markets would fall.

The problems are also a lesson in the perils of using borrowed money to make trades; one of Bear's funds was highly leveraged. Moreover, investors and traders are uncertain about what Bear's complex holdings are worth. If it can't fetch much for them in the market, others might have to mark down the value of their own holdings.

"There's fear of further liquidations," said Jeffrey Gundlach, chief investment officer at the TCW Group.

It all comes just as about $250 billion in junk bonds and corporate loans are slated to be sold to investors, much of it tied to the corporate buyout boom. The debt is expected to be issued in the next four to eight weeks. If worries about subprime woes spread, and investors suddenly become risk averse, it could lead to troubles for these debt sales.

Yesterday, a closely watched derivative index tied to junk-rated corporate loans fell for an eighth straight day, to a new low of 99.05, down 0.65 from a day ago, according to data from Goldman Sachs Group Inc. The index, called the LCDX, was launched just a month ago and dropped below 100 earlier this week for the first time.

Still, investors didn't appear to be anywhere near panic. The 10-year Treasury note, which investors typically flock to buy in times of trouble, fell instead, pushing its yield, which moves opposite its price, higher.

Gold, another favorite destination when markets are distressed, fell $4.60 to $656.10 an ounce. Volatility expectations in the stock and bond markets, derived from options prices, rose but didn't shoot higher like they usually do in panic situations.

"The world is nothing if not resilient," said Brown Brothers Harriman portfolio manager Richard Koss. "It's amazing how the market keeps on taking shots and keeps absorbing them."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1182..._whats_news_us

The folks at the Fed have been setting policy to slow the growth of the economy to fight inflation. They think inflation is now in their target range and have an optimistic outlook.

Quote:
Core inflation rose in early 2006, mostly as companies passed higher energy costs through to consumers in the form of higher prices for goods and services, and as rising home prices prompted more people to rent apartments, driving up "owner's-equivalent rent," a proxy for the cost of homeownership.
[Comfort Zone]

The increase in housing costs has since slowed as the rising supply of vacant homes restrains rents. The recent rebound in energy prices isn't expected to add much new pressure to core prices because they haven't exceeded last year's peaks.

But the Fed does still see risks of higher inflation from the lack of spare capacity in the economy, which means higher demand is more likely to translate into higher prices and wages. Despite a year of slow growth, the unemployment rate, at 4.5%, remains near a six-year low. Global growth is robust, boosting demand for U.S. exports.

In this environment, the Fed is still likely to express some concern that its forecast for inflation to moderate, dropping below 2% by the end of 2008, might go off track.

Despite indications the nation's economy has bounced back from a first-quarter slowdown, the Fed for now is sticking to a forecast of modest growth this year, principally because the housing market is taking longer to hit bottom than the central bank previously expected. Indeed, the recent rise in mortgage rates modestly boosts the risks to the housing market.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1182...lead_story_lsc

The size of our economy and its complexity says to me that the subprime issue will be but a small and temporary blip on the economic radar screen.

{added}

Here is more interesting info to put the "housing recession" into perspective (keep in mind that people gotta live somewhere)

Quote:
Building permits, which are required in most localities before construction can begin, rose last month. But much of the gain was a result of permits for apartment buildings. Demand for apartments has been growing as rising interest rates and tighter lending standards have encouraged more families to rent a home instead of purchase one.

Building permits overall increased 3% in May, but single-family home permits fell 1.8%, while permits for apartments gained 17%.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1182...lead_story_lsc

So we see building permits for apartments up 17%, I am sure some can rationalize why that is insignificant, I just bring it up to see how it is rationalized.
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Last edited by aceventura3; 06-21-2007 at 07:22 AM..
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Old 06-21-2007, 08:36 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
So we see building permits for apartments up 17%, I am sure some can rationalize why that is insignificant, I just bring it up to see how it is rationalized.
Not insignificant I don't think. If people can't afford to buy a house, they still have to live somewhere. More people are also choosing to buy an apartment (marketed as a condo in a lot of places) as opposed to a house. Does this indicate that more Americans are finding homes beyond their reach? Or are they just choosing to 'take less space'? I have single friends who own three bedroom suburban homes. Nothing against if that's what they want, but it does seem a wee bit inefficient in the big picture. If more people like this are finding a condo a better choice, I don't know that it is a bad thing. On the other hand, if families are being squeezed and simply can't afford to live in a home that fits their family anymore, then that probably is a bad thing.
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Old 06-21-2007, 09:02 AM   #84 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshbaumgartner
Not insignificant I don't think. If people can't afford to buy a house, they still have to live somewhere. More people are also choosing to buy an apartment (marketed as a condo in a lot of places) as opposed to a house. Does this indicate that more Americans are finding homes beyond their reach? Or are they just choosing to 'take less space'? I have single friends who own three bedroom suburban homes. Nothing against if that's what they want, but it does seem a wee bit inefficient in the big picture. If more people like this are finding a condo a better choice, I don't know that it is a bad thing. On the other hand, if families are being squeezed and simply can't afford to live in a home that fits their family anymore, then that probably is a bad thing.
Given our population growth at some point the trend of people building and living in bigger and bigger homes will reverse. In places with highly dense populations people mange o.k. with significantly less space than the average person in this country.

Home ownership rates in this country are at all time highs even at current price levels. We have had an extended period of low and stable interest rates which has help a great deal. There are no indicators pointing to significant increases in interest rates or indicating that interest rates will become unstable.

It is interesting, but the subprime mortagage issue actually helped many marginally qualified people to buy a first home. Perhaps the net affect will be that many average hard working people who never owned a home before benefited at the cost of the "fat cats" on Wall St.

What is not being reported is the fact that the vast majority of these subprime loans are not in default and will never be in default. Some of these people will stabalize their credit, refinance with a "prime" loan, gain equity, and share in the American Dream of home ownership. To me that is a good thing.
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"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
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Old 07-05-2007, 10:00 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Host,

Contrary to your original premise that the housing slump would create a domino affect on the economy, it appears that first the single family housing slump will be in-part offset by an increase in multi-unit residential construction. And it appears that the commercial real estate market is red hot as indicated by rising rents and lower vacancy rates. Perhaps some of the Miami condos will be converted, or more likely - rising commercial rents will lead to more commercial development. Smart money seems to be able to stay one step ahead of the headlines.

Quote:
Meanwhile, demand for office space has been growing. Net absorption -- a measure of the space taken up by commercial tenants -- increased markedly during the latest quarter, a sign that the economy is producing more office jobs, says Sam Chandan, chief economist for Reis. Nationwide, the office-vacancy rate, at 12.7%, is the lowest since the third quarter of 2001.
Quote:
Nationwide, effective rents on office properties -- the amount tenants pay after concessions -- jumped an average of 3.1% during this year's second quarter, up from gains of 2.8% in the first quarter and 2.1% in the year-earlier period, according to a report scheduled for release today by real-estate research firm Reis Inc.

That was the sharpest quarterly increase since the third quarter of 2000, before the combined effects of the technology-stock bust and the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks caused office vacancies to rise and rental rates to fall.
[Hot Markets]

The red-hot commercial sector offers a sharp contrast with the housing market, which has been slumping for the past two years or so.

In some cities, today's higher rents reflect strong economic fundamentals. In New York and Washington, for example, fatter corporate profits are spurring companies to step up hiring, fueling demand for additional space at a time when supply is tight. Vacancy rates in some of these markets have fallen to single digits, in part because high land prices and strict zoning requirements have kept a lid on construction of new office buildings.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1183..._whats_news_us

Host, please let me know when you concede that your premise is wrong.
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Old 07-26-2007, 07:32 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
Host,

Contrary to your original premise that the housing slump would create a domino affect on the economy, it appears that first the single family housing slump will be in-part offset by an increase in multi-unit residential construction. And it appears that the commercial real estate market is red hot as indicated by rising rents and lower vacancy rates. Perhaps some of the Miami condos will be converted, or more likely - rising commercial rents will lead to more commercial development. Smart money seems to be able to stay one step ahead of the headlines.





http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1183..._whats_news_us

Host, please let me know when you concede that your premise is wrong.
It's just the "2nd inning..." and the homebuilder's index is down 33 percent, and Countrywide....touted as a "prime" lender with little exposure to "sub-prime" and Alt-A is following suit....finally. There is no rise...yet...in unemployment, yet Countrywide is impacted by increased mortgage payment delinquencies...it admitted earlier this week. Wait until unemployment...and it will....ramps up...
Quote:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070726/economy.html?.v=21
AP
New Home Sales Down Substantially
Thursday July 26, 10:56 am ET
By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer
Sales of New Homes Plunge by the Largest Amount in 5 Months

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Sales of new homes fell in June by the largest amount in five months as the housing industry continued to struggle with its worst downturn in 16 years. The median home price also fell.....
<center><img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/x/xhb"><p><br><img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/6m/c/cfc"></center>

Quote:
http://www.minyanville.com/articles/...459/from/yahoo

Five Things You Need to Know: Credit Crunch; Existing Home Sales; All Real Estate is Local; Irony Alert; What Can We Speculate on Next!


What you need to know (and what it means)!

Kevin Depew
Jul 25, 2007 12:05 pm

Minyanville's daily Five Things You Need to Know to stay ahead of the pack on Wall Street:

1. Credit Crunch

Two important stories this morning point to why subprime may not be contained, and why it's relevant to just about everything else.

* First, Chrysler (DCX) said this morning it is scrapping a planned sale of $12 billion of loans for its automotive business.
* Chrysler was to use the financing to help fund its buyout by Cerberus Capital Management.
* The company still intends to move ahead with a plan to raise $8 billion for its financing division... probably because the company has no choice.
* Kohlberg Kravis Roberts & Co.'s banks, led by Deutsche Bank (DB) , failed to sell $10 billion of senior loans to fund the leveraged buyout of Alliance Boots, according to Bloomberg.
* What does this mean?
* In both cases, the financing plans were scrapped due to a lack of buyers.
* They simply couldn't find anyone willing to offer credit for the terms they were seeking.
* What do you call a situation where investment capital is increasingly difficult to obtain as banks and investors become more risk averse, perhaps wary of lending money to corporations and firms and consequently driving up the cost of debt products for borrowers?
* Oh yeah, that's called a credit crunch.

February 19, 2007: BusinessWeek. "It's a Low, Low, Low, Low-Rate World."

It certainly was.

<img src="http://images.businessweek.com/mz/07/08/0708covdc.gif">

2. Existing Home Sales

Existing Home Sales fell for a fourth straight month in June, perhaps the least surprising news making the rounds this morning.

* Existing Home Sales declined 3.8% in June, to an annual rate of 5.75 million, the slowest pace since November 2002, according to the National Association of Realtors.
* Expectations were for a decline of 2.1%, according to Bloomberg.
* On the bright side, inventories fell 4.2%, the first decline in existing home inventories this year.
* At the current pace of sales, that's about 8.8 months' worth of inventory, the same as May.
* Also, the median price of an existing home actually rose 0.3% in June, the first year-over-year increase in 11 months.


3. All Real Estate is Local

In discussing today's Existing Home Sales report, National Association of Realtors President Pat V. Combs, helpfully noted that, “Consumers should avoid making decisions based on what they hear about the national market because all real estate is local."

* That's right.
* Don't make your local decisions based on national news reports.
* So when a national news service, such as Associated Press, reports somethng like "Countrywide (CFC) Squeezed by Falling Home Prices," people shouldn't listen to that kind of sensationalism and hysteria.
* When a national news outlet such as CNNMoney reports, "Subprime Woes Spread to Junk Bonds," relax and pop a cold one... it's got nothing to do with you.
* However, when the Patriot Ledger of South Boston reports, "Real estate market continues drop: Home sales, prices fall again in June," that's different.
* When the San Mateo County Times notes, "The housing slowdown is hitting the Central Valley particularly hard," we can begin to get a little concerned.
* Yep, when the Durango Herald out in Colorado starts reporting things like, "Number of Foreclosures in Area Jumps," Katie bar the door!
* We know what you're thinking. What about the Twin Cities Daily Planet out in Minnesota? Now if the Twin Cities Daily Planet says "Foreclosures Have Made Problem Properties More Problematic," well, the problems may indeed run deeper than we feared.
* And God forbid the Frederick News Post in Maryland should report that "Housing Market Problems Linger"!
* Or the Pocono Record in Pennsylvania! If the Pocono Record says "Home Sales in Monroe Drop 29%" we may, in fact, be screwed!
* And then there's Texas. Everything is bigger in Texas, as the Fort Worth Star Telegram made clear when they reported, "Tarrant County Foreclosures Hit New High"!
* Et Tu Florida? Say it ain't so, Daytona Beach News, "Foreclosures Continue to Soar."
* Yes, all real estate is indeed local.


4. Irony Alert

Minyan Tripp pointed out a bizarre bit of irony related to the Minyanville Mr. T and the Price of Gold video on Yahoo Finance this morning.

One of the sponsors of the video is Countrywide Home Loans, advertising a no-cost refinancing option. Get Cash Now!

We love it when a plan comes together.

<img src="https://image.minyanville.com/assets/FCK/Image/mrt.jpg">


5. What Can We Speculate on Next!

With a solid four years of stock returns under our belts and the S&P 500 up more than 70% since January 2003, we were sitting here the other day racking our brains for something more entertaining to speculate on.

Stocks, commodities, bonds, TIPs, options, preferreds, REITs, closed-end funds, CDOs, CMOs, agency bonds, emerging markets, emerging market bonds, currencies, this stuff is just too easy. It's like shooting fish in a barrel, which just happens to be a game made by a company called Fish Shooter Gaming that we've made a killing on by selling their fixed income securities and buying credit protection, leaving us with something similar to a call option on the underlying stock which we were able to pick up at a very low price before delta hedging our exposure to the underlying shares - but that's a different story.

Bottom line: What's left to speculate on? Baseball cards? Please. We said spec-u-late. Real, live basebal players? Eh. We're talking home runs, not singles. Art? Bo-ring! What about the average temperature in Rome over a specified time series? Hmmm. Can we get that bet in euro-denominated certificates? Apparently so.

* Merrill Lynch (MER) is launching a two-year euro-denominated certificate that pays a return based on the average temperature in Rome, Italy as measured over the course of a year from mid-September.
* If the average temperature is over 16.38 degrees Celsius, the certificate will pay interest of up to 16 percent, with the full payout achieved if the average reaches 17.38 degrees, according to Reuters.
* Data for the current season, from mid-September 2006 to the present day and then forecast through to mid-September this year, show an average temperature of 17.2 degrees Celsius.
* If over the course of the two years, the average temperature does not rise above 16.38 degrees, then investors do not receive a coupon payment, but receive 101 percent of their principal at maturity, the article explained.
* This deal brings the product to a new audience, including smaller and retail clients, who have not been able to access the market before, Jens Boening, head of EMEA weather derivatives structuring at Merrill said.
....and ace....the retrenchment and it's associated damage will be in inverse proportion to the excess....the folly that preceded it....the last comment in the preceding quote box was really about an actual ML "offering":
Quote:
http://www.ml.com/index.asp?id=7695_...12_80055_80747
Merrill Lynch Launches First Temperature-Linked Certificate
Contact us about this press release

LONDON, July 24, 2007 — Merrill Lynch today announced the launch of a new two-year euro-denominated certificate that offers an annual return based upon the average temperature in Roma-Ciampino, Italy. The investment product is 100 percent principal-protected and offers a temperature-contingent coupon of up to 16 percent annually. The certificate will be issued as part of the Merrill Lynch Certificate Programme and will be publicly offered into the Italian region via an appointed distributor.....

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Old 07-26-2007, 08:19 AM   #87 (permalink)
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Good to see your continued interest in the subject, especially during a week of sell-offs in the equities market after a long and major run up.

There is some good news in the housing sector, but most economists are dismissing the good news. For example median prices of existing homes sales were up last month compared to the previous month and compared to last year. They say it could be because of a skewed mix of sales of higher valued homes. Inventories of existing homes are also down. They say this is offset by lower sales and people delaying putting their homes on the market. I think we are getting to the point of capitulation. The psychology of the market suggests that when there is nothing but bad news being reported, the worst has past.

As a side note - Normally I would think you would be suspect of information coming from corporate America. If I were CEO of a company like Countrywide, what do you think I would do, given current market conditions?

Here is what I would do. I would write-off and adjust as much as I could using the housing crisis as my reason (not violating the law, just being more aggressive in managing my balance sheet), so that a few years down the road I get my financial statements to look a bit better than they would have normally. I take my "hits" today, for a bigger payoff tomorrow. Perhaps now is the time to start dollar cost averaging back into homebuilder stocks. What do you think? Still believe there is room for shorting?
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:52 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Can you verify whether the reported, declining existing home inventories include the residences that are on the auction block because of foreclosures, or, in inventories like the one Countrywide is trying to sell?

It is my understanding that foreclosures, which are rapidly rising, are not included in MLS stats, and they are not part of home builders' unsold inventories....and the forced sales, the majority sold via foreclosure auctions, will, if not now, be sold "at any price". These are the sales, even if home builders cease all new building for the next five years....and they won't, they're still building, for example, in the area around where I live....hundreds of new units....that will weigh on the market and will negatively impact average selling prices.....count on it!


ace....Countrywide would have a difficult time "moving" the 10,200 housing units, valued at over $2 billion, that it now finds itself "owning", if it did not make it's rising inventory, public. Since it is public information, folks analyze the data and the trend:

http://countrywide-foreclosures.blog...203-homes.html

http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp

...it's a train wreck and it will feed on itself.....and it will take the entire US economy with it, as the rapid decline in cheap credit seems to indicate.

This is a year old, ace....but it holds true, even more so, today...with the first time buyer unable to obtain a "liar loan" or a "time bomb" option ARM loan because of the sub-prime implosion, and the halt of the trend of rapidly rising appraised "value"....because liquidity can no longer be "injected" into the RE market by first time buyers who only qualified for loans that only "worked" if the valuations reliably went "up and up and up".....lower priced home sales diminish, with the "high end" the last to fall, because buyers of high priced homes have alternative methods of financing unavailable to first time and other assetless, former buyers.

If fewer homes priced at the "low end" sell, and "high end" sales do not decline proportionally....sure, average selling prices will remain firm, or even rise a bit, but that statistic does not support an argument that the market is better than it seems at first glance. It actually means, IMO, that it is worse than it seems, because when first time buyers are not in the market, it will not be sustained by high end buyers....hence the dramatic decline in total numbers of housing units sold.....the largest decline in 16 years:

Quote:
http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjuly06/home-sales2.html

On the same topic, correspondent S.B. shared the expertise of one of his contacts, retired global business exec-turned San Diego-area realtor <a href="http://realtytimes.com/rtmcrcond/California~San_Diego~bobcasagrand">Bob Casagrand. S.B.</a> had these comments on why median prices could appear to be rising even as sales slump:

Whenever I have a (real estate) question I cannot get answered, I turn to Bob.

So I asked him, Why is the median rising, when each individual home is selling for less? Actually, most San Diego homes are back at 2004 prices.

Bob told me that the under $400K buyer is squeezed out due to rising prices and higher interest rates. The high end is holding up a little better, because the ripple effect has not yet made it to the high end, and the low end has weakened MORE than the high end.

Last year, the +$1million home was 8.5% of sales. This year it is 10%. This is skewing UP the distribution of homes sold, raising the median, although each home, including the high end homes, are selling for 10-15% less today than last year.

We are selling proportionally MORE of the expensive homes, and the median tells us only about the MIX of homes sold.

It does not tell us about the value of each home. The $1.1 mil house was worth $1.5 mil in 2004, so it has also gone down in value.

If you want to know how each house has held up, you have to use the Case-Shiller index, or the OFHEO housing price index. Both track the SAME house over time, giving us the change in valuation of each house instead of the change in the MIX of homes sold....

Last edited by host; 07-26-2007 at 09:00 AM..
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Old 07-26-2007, 10:13 AM   #89 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by host
Can you verify whether the reported, declining existing home inventories include the residences that are on the auction block because of foreclosures, or, in inventories like the one Countrywide is trying to sell?
The data I saw was in a WSJ article. I assume existing home sales data includes all existing home for sale.

Quote:
Existing home sales continued on their dismal, downward trajectory, according to numbers from National Association of Realtors. Home sales fell a more-than-expected 3.8% in June to a seasonally adjusted annual rate of 5.75 million units, the lowest level since November 2002, Bear Stearns analysts noted. There were some numbers that didn't look quite so bleak. For instance the median home price crept up 0.3% from June 2006 to $230,100. The median home price was $222,700 in May this year. But economists didn't find much solace in the price rise, saying the median price might be skewed by strength in sales of higher-priced homes. Another apparent positive was housing inventory, which shrank 4.2% during June to 4.2 million. But, even these numbers couldn't buck up some economists. "This probably does not signify a meaningful step toward stability. Instead, it could indicate the discouragement of potential sellers who have withdrawn homes from the market in the face of price weakness and higher mortgage rates," wrote Nomura researchers. Likewise unimpressed were Morgan Stanley economists, saying in a note that "even with a significant decline in the supply of homes available for sale, the drop in the sales pace was big enough to keep the months' supply of unsold homes at a fifteen-year high."
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118536626835477490.html


Quote:
It is my understanding that foreclosures, which are rapidly rising, are not included in MLS stats, and they are not part of home builders' unsold inventories....and the forced sales, the majority sold via foreclosure auctions, will, if not now, be sold "at any price". These are the sales, even if home builders cease all new building for the next five years....and they won't, they're still building, for example, in the area around where I live....hundreds of new units....that will weigh on the market and will negatively impact average selling prices.....count on it!
Most of the headlines focus on percentage change either year over year or month to month. Given the abnormal run up in prices and building due to speculation, I don't consider it odd to have an abnormal correction. However, at some point the percentage change will be calculated on a smaller and smaller base. When that happens the percentages will take on a totally different perspective, while the fundamentals may not change at all. This happens in reverse too, causing exaggerated reactions.


Quote:
ace....Countrywide would have a difficult time "moving" the 10,200 housing units, valued at over $2 billion, that it now finds itself "owning", if it did not make it's rising inventory, public. Since it is public information, folks analyze the data and the trend:

http://countrywide-foreclosures.blog...203-homes.html

http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp

...it's a train wreck and it will feed on itself.....and it will take the entire US economy with it, as the rapid decline in cheap credit seems to indicate.
The Countrywide CEO stated that he thinks by 2009 thing will be better. He is not in a panic. Here are his words to a question during conference call after his earnings release:

Quote:
Paul Miller - Friedman, Billings, Ramsey - Analyst
Thank you very much. Angelo, you have been through a lot of these different cycles out there. This doesn't seem -- this seems to be becoming a lot stronger and a lot harder than a lot of people thought. When do you think this ends? I know you have been quoted out there you think this -- maybe it is an '09 event. But what's some of the things we have to see? We have to -- does the CDO market have to come back? Or does liquidity have to come back? Or do the inventories in the housing market have to go away? What are some of the things that we need to look for?
Angelo Mozilo - Countrywide Financial Corporation -Chairman, CEO
I think the first thing is that the inventory in the house supply has to reverse itself. Because as I view it, and I have been through a lot of these things in 54 years, although the market is a lot bigger now, so the problems are a lot bigger. But as I try to walk through what happened here, and could a lot of this have been foreseen? [These] tend to try to reflect on your own activities, and should we have known, could we have seen it? But as I do reflect on it, and I do a lot, that nobody saw this coming. S&P and Moody's didn't see it coming, but they simply just
downgrade bonds, they don't take hits. Bear Stearns certainly didn't see it coming. Merrill Lynch didn't see it coming. Nobody saw this coming. So it was the deterioration in real estate values that was the base cause of all of this. We had none of these problems as real
estate values were going up. So it is an oversimplification, admittedly, but clearly the deterioration in real estate values -- as a result of the affordability issue and an oversupply. So I think one turning point is the supply of housing. Because I think once that turns around, the psychology of the country changes. Because now the borrowers -- potential buyers simply say, look, I will just wait, because I will be able to buy the house cheaper tomorrow than I can today. That psychology has to change; and the only thing that is going to change it is supply. The other -- just so I can reflect on this as you people think of your questions. The other is that the Fed knowingly -- knowing that well over 50, 60, 70% of the loans made in 2003, '04, '05, and '06 were indexed variable-rate loans, indexed one way or another to the Fed funds rate, increased the Fed funds rate 17 times. 17 consecutive times, with most of the product out there
being variable-rate product. You know, and you never knew when they were going to stop increasing. But the fact they did that had a material impact on affordability. As people went to refinance or people went to buy. Major, major impact. So for a Fed Governor to say that the lending industry had this coming is unbelievable when the Fed, to a great extent, was a contributing -- unknowing contributing factor to this. Plus they came in with the Fed, with the joint [AC] guidelines which restricted the amount of -- the type of loans we could make, in an environment where we had limited liquidity to start with. The other was the rapid increase in real estate values that we have faced over the last few years caused people to stretch themselves and their financial resources in order to get into a home. There is a high desire for people to own a home. The mortgage product then was developed to try to help them get into the home, which was known as exotic products of various kinds. But there was a secondary market for it. There was plenty of liquidity for that. So the primary market responded to that. I say also the traditional underwriting standards, which John McMurray alluded to, were altered to use more technology and more credit scoring as a judgmental factor in whether a loan could qualify or not, versus the traditional documentation.
And you had on top of that, which again John related to, was speculation. So I just want to share those thoughts with you. Now getting back to your base question, as I say 2009 because my experience is that it just takes a long time to change, to turn a battleship around. This is a huge battleship and it is headed in the wrong direction. So first, we have to get it to slow down, then stop, and then turn. I think that that -- this is just a gut feeling, based upon what I have seen in the past and the size of this
market -- is that it's going to take 2007, the balance of this year, to get this thing to look like it is slowing down; 2008 to get it to slow down and stop; and 2009 to head in the other direction. My feeling is that by that time, you will have reduced competition, very substantial pent-up demand, because of all of the people who have been closed out of housing, probably lower interest rates. I do think that this ultimately has to have an effect on the economy. I just can't believe that this economy is totally insulated from housing. And will be 2009, 2010, 2011, I look to as sort of like 2003, 2004, 2005. Great years for the industry.
http://online.wsj.com/documents/tran...c-20070724.pdf

He says he didn't see it coming is B.S. or he was blinded by greed. He gets paid to see this stuff coming.

Quote:
This is a year old, ace....but it holds true, even more so, today...with the first time buyer unable to obtain a "liar loan" or a "time bomb" option ARM loan because of the sub-prime implosion, and the halt of the trend of rapidly rising appraised "value"....because liquidity can no longer be "injected" into the RE market by first time buyers who only qualified for loans that only "worked" if the valuations reliably went "up and up and up".....lower priced home sales diminish, with the "high end" the last to fall, because buyers of high priced homes have alternative methods of financing unavailable to first time and other assetless, former buyers.

If fewer homes priced at the "low end" sell, and "high end" sales do not decline proportionally....sure, average selling prices will remain firm, or even rise a bit, but that statistic does not support an argument that the market is better than it seems at first glance. It actually means, IMO, that it is worse than it seems, because when first time buyers are not in the market, it will not be sustained by high end buyers....hence the dramatic decline in total numbers of housing units sold.....the largest decline in 16 years:
I will look up the data later, but the overwhelming majority of loans are not in default and won't be. Even in the subprime category this is true.

What happened to the Bear Stern's hedge fund was an over reliance on leverage and taking on excessive risk. The same can be said for some homebuilders who used expensive options to control land. Now that the demand has lessened some of these options are worthless. Mortgage companies relaxed their loan underwriting standards because of the boom, and now it is coming back to hurt them. The funny thing is, that none of that has anything to due with the fundamentals of the real estate market and the intrinsic value of real estate. What we really have is a panic created by "Wall Street".
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Old 07-26-2007, 11:20 AM   #90 (permalink)
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DOW (DJIA) down 366 pts. right now..... foreclosed homes to be sold do not appear in MLS inventory stats....so, with foreclosures at multi-year highs, and rising....the "picture" is much worse, going forward, than this month's inventory of unsold homes "reduction", indicates.....

Today's decline of the DOW (just 30 stocks...hugely overvalued to distort the true, weakened total state of the US stock market.....) is the largest, on a number of total points, probably in at least 5 years.

Bear Stearns stock is in a dramatic....like Country Wide Home Mortgage...
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/3m/b/bsc">

"Things" are progressing as I predicted they would, when I started this thread.
I don't think many here will believe, if they look back at this post, next November, (2008) how poor the state of the economy, at the time they are voting for the next US president, compared to the way that it is, now.

The DOW and the Nasdaq and S&P indexes are suffering damage today that will seem slight, compared to how far all three have declined, 15 months from now. Oil is $77.00 per bbl today, it will be somewhat lower, with the US fully in recession, next year at this time.....
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:11 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
DOW (DJIA) down 366 pts. right now..... foreclosed homes to be sold do not appear in MLS inventory stats....so, with foreclosures at multi-year highs, and rising....the "picture" is much worse, going forward, than this month's inventory of unsold homes "reduction", indicates.....

Today's decline of the DOW (just 30 stocks...hugely overvalued to distort the true, weakened total state of the US stock market.....) is the largest, on a number of total points, probably in at least 5 years.

Bear Stearns stock is in a dramatic....like Country Wide Home Mortgage...
<img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/3m/b/bsc">

"Things" are progressing as I predicted they would, when I started this thread.
I don't think many here will believe, if they look back at this post, next November, (2008) how poor the state of the economy, at the time they are voting for the next US president, compared to the way that it is, now.

The DOW and the Nasdaq and S&P indexes are suffering damage today that will seem slight, compared to how far all three have declined, 15 months from now. Oil is $77.00 per bbl today, it will be somewhat lower, with the US fully in recession, next year at this time.....
The DOW was 11,125 on7/26/06
The DOW was 12,474 on 1/3/07
Today the DOW will close around 13,441

The S&P 500 was 1270 on 7/26/06
1416 on 1/3/07
and will close today around 1472

It is possible the market will decline further and it is possible that economic growth will stop long enough for the US to be considered in a recession. However, if that happens perhaps the FED will cease its slow growth anti-inflation posture and allow interest rates to fall. If interest rates fall there will be less pressure on ARM's and more people able to qualify for loans. If that happens demand will pick up - - then its off to the races again. The Countrywide CEO thinks that '09, '10 and '11 will be like '03, '04 and '05. I actually hope he is wrong, and that the real estate market in particular reverts back to its historical mean growth rate.
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:42 PM   #92 (permalink)
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Host, have I mentioned lately that you are once again at least six months ahead of the current news?

I hope the fish are biting.
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Old 08-19-2007, 03:58 PM   #93 (permalink)
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My mother has been saying this for more than a year, too, and no one listened to her either, lol.
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:10 AM   #94 (permalink)
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I have underestimated the markets reaction to the sub-prime catastrophe, but Host overestimates what it impact will be. I still hold the belief that most of what we are experiencing is an over-reaction but that reaction is real. The impacts outside of "sub-prime" is mostly on the margins, the underlying economy is strong. Currently the Federal Reserve is injecting liquidity into the market, many would argue that the Fed should have taken more aggressive action sooner, including lowering the discount rate. Two weeks ago, the Fed official position was to fight inflation and their concern over the economy growing too fast.
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:12 AM   #95 (permalink)
 
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Most people could care less about econometric measures. They judge the economy by their pocketbook and the judgment is generally that they are not better off then they were 4 or 8 years ago...millions of people in debt, and overextended, living from paycheck to paycheck.

Thats why host is right that it will definitely be a top issue in the 08 campaign.
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:13 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dc_dux
Most people could care less about econometric measures. They judge the economy by their pocketbook and the judgment is generally that they are not better off then they were 4 or 8 years ago. Thats why host is right that it will definitely be a top issue in the 08 campaign.
By what measure do you and others define "better off" or worse off?
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Old 08-20-2007, 08:18 AM   #97 (permalink)
 
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That is a personal judgment that people make based on their own lifestyle, spending habits, debt, cost of living, ability to save, etc., not on national measures or indices.

I cant answer that for others, but I can say without doubt, I am reasonably well off or at least comfortable, but certainly not better off as a result of the Bush economic era. My income has not risen commensurate with my cost of living and my 401K has not risen as much as it did in the 90s. Those are my measures.

My conclusion regarding how others feel about the economy is based on polls, which measure voter perceptions better than economic indices.

Here is a recent one from the American Research Group, in which Bush's approval rating on handing the economy is lower than his abysmal overall approval rating:
Overall, 23% of Americans say that they approve of the way George W. Bush is handling the economy, 73% disapprove, and 4% are undecided. Among registered voters, 23% approve and 72% disapprove of the way Bush is handling the economy.

A total of 12% of Americans say that the national economy is getting better, 28% say it is staying the same, and 58% say the national economy is getting worse.

When it comes to rating their household financial situations, 68% of Americans give an excellent, very good, or good rating and 31% give a bad, very bad, or terrible rating. (this appears somewhat at odds with the other responses)

A total of 15% of Americans say they think the financial situations in their households are getting better, 47% say staying the same, and 37% say getting worse.
http://www.americanresearchgroup.com/economy/
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Old 08-20-2007, 09:29 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
Most people could care less about econometric measures. They judge the economy by their pocketbook and the judgment is generally that they are not better off then they were 4 or 8 years ago.
Agreed 100% The only economic indicators that I care about is the steady rise in the price of a gallon of milk vs. the stagnation of my wages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
By what measure do you and others define "better off" or worse off?
For me, at least, it's the fact that I have to work longer to buy the same goods. As the cost of living goes up, my income does not. This reduces the amount of "disposable" income, and savings. Also, my retirement savings (ie, my 401K) is no longer producing at the rate that it once was. That means that my retirement may have to be postponed. These are just a couple of "Average Joe" economic indicators.
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Old 08-20-2007, 12:31 PM   #99 (permalink)
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How do you assign responsibility for our national economic conditions and in turn your individual economic condition?

National economic policies have long tails. It may take years and in some cases decades before the full impact of national economic policy changes are felt.

For example a minimum wage increase, when will individuals feel the real impact? In July the minimum wage increased $.70/hour. The worker making less than $5.85 will feel an impact on his next pay check, that may be two weeks. Assuming a $.70 increase over 80 hours the individual will have $56 gross and less say they net 90% after taxes or $50.40. After 4 weeks or 160 hours he has $100.80, with the extra money the employee will have an immediate positive impact and if we multiply that by the number of minimum wage workers (also many above minimum would get salary increases), we should see an increase in consumption. If legislation is in place for future increases going beyond a current administration, who gets the credit of these pops in increased consumer spending? In California for example the minimum wage is already $7.50 and going to $8.00 in January. who gets the credit or blame for that?

But wages paid are not in a vacuum. Businesses that employ minimum wage workers faces increased costs. With those increased costs, and typically a longer-term reaction. Over time the business will absorb the increased costs, lowering profits, lowering possible investments in growth, lowering taxes paid, etc. Or the business may increase prices or a combination of both. So first we have the short-term pop in consumer spending, then we have the malaise of reduced business spending or we have offsetting inflation or a combination. Let's say this happens about 12 months after the minimum wage increase. Again, crossing administrations who gets the credit and who gets the blame? What happens if business reduces the numbers of employees hired? What if there is an impact on seasonal hires, that impact may take over a year before it is felt.

So now we have inflation or lower business profitability. What happens next? How long does it take? What happens with other economic policies or laws, perhaps issues planned decades ago. Let's look at say Roth IRA's, let's say now more people are using Roth's than ever, let's say many people have taken advantage to converting conventional IRA's to Roth's and paying taxes to do so. Guess what? The Government gets a pop in tax collections in current terms, but will get a decline in taxes decades down the road when people start taking out their Roth IRA earnings tax free. Then the government increases tax rates. Who gets the credit, who gets the blame?

As you may see, we can go on with this for a long time with real policies that will have real impact on the economy over the short term and over the long term. My question stays the same who get the credit and who the blame?

While you guys may attribute being better off or worse off to the President currently in office I don't. Our economy is far to complicated, being better off or worse off is a personal responsibility.

Everyone has an equal opportunity to know the "rules". If they are winning or loosing the game, depends on decisions made by individuals - short of our government going to extremes one way or the other.
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Old 08-20-2007, 02:11 PM   #100 (permalink)
 
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All of that may be true (or not, and I would say not), but most Americans dont think that way when they are sitting around the kitchen table wondering if they can afford a new car, or how they will pay for their kids college, or what would happen if one spouse looses their job when over the last 6 years, they have been unable to save or worse, are just scraping by making ends meet.

They hear Bush talk about how great the economy is and they hear their Republican members of Congress say how the Bush tax cuts helped most Americans..and they shake their heads (15% from the poll above say their personal/household financial situation is getter better).

Thats why the economy is always a top issue come election time. It contributed to the Republican losses in 06 (according to many exit polls) and it will be a top issue in 08 regardless of whether your economic analysis is right or wrong.
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Old 08-20-2007, 03:00 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dc_dux
All of that may be true (or not, and I would say not), but most Americans dont think that way when they are sitting around the kitchen table wondering if they can afford a new car, or how they will pay for their kids college, or what would happen if one spouse looses their job when over the last 6 years, they have been unable to save or worse, are just scraping by making ends meet.

They hear Bush talk about how great the economy is and they hear their Republican members of Congress say how the Bush tax cuts helped most Americans..and they shake their heads (15% from the poll above say their personal/household financial situation is getter better).

Thats why the economy is always a top issue come election time. It contributed to the Republican losses in 06 (according to many exit polls) and it will be a top issue in 08 regardless of whether your economic analysis is right or wrong.
It was pretty real when many families received $600 checks in 2001. Tax cuts, however, like minimum wage increase are quickly forgotten although the affects may linger. My views on economic issues are not partisan, Presidents get too much credit and too much blame. When people received $300 or $600 checks from the treasury, you can bet there was a pop in consumer spending, or a possible offset of some other condition set in motion as a result of past economic policy decisions or conditions. The point is that economic policies are not implemented in a vacuum and their full affects may take years to realize, i.e. changes in the long-term capital gains tax rate.
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Old 08-20-2007, 03:18 PM   #102 (permalink)
 
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I agree that the President (and Congress) get too much credit and too much blame for the economy, but the fact is that people vote their pocketbook and their personal financial situation.. and perception becomes reality.

I mentioned 2006 exit polls. Look at two Senate races, Missouri and Montana, where incumbent Republicans lost very close races that ultimately gave the Democrats a majority in the Senate:
Q - Which best describes your family's financial situation?:

Missouri: the less than 1/3 of voters who said they "feel they are getting ahead financial" voted overwhelmingly R and the more than 2/3 who said they "feel they are just maintaining their standard of living or falling behind voting overwhelmingly D:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14349811/

Montana: the less than 1/3 of voters who said they "feel they are getting ahead financial" voted overwhelmingly R and the more than 2/3 who said they "feel they are just maintaining their standard of living or falling behind voting overwhelmingly D
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14349812/
Your views on economic issues may not be partisan, but it is partisan for many (most?) voters. Perceptions or a "feeling of getting ahead financially or not" can and does have a major impact on elections.
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Old 08-21-2007, 08:42 AM   #103 (permalink)
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Battling polls. Here are results from a recent Harris poll.

Quote:
Overall, Americans are definitely satisfied with the life they lead. Almost all (94%) say they are satisfied, with over half of U.S. adults (56%) saying they are very satisfied with the life they lead and 38 percent somewhat satisfied. Just six percent are not satisfied with the life they lead. This level of satisfaction is up slightly from earlier this decade: in 2005, nine out of ten were satisfied and in 2003, 91 percent were satisfied with the life they led.
Quote:
When comparing their present situation with five years ago, over half (54%) of adults say their situation has improved while one-quarter (28%) say it has stayed about the same and 17 percent say it has gotten worse. The number of those who say their lives have improved is about the same as in 2005 (56%) and still up from 2003’s 49 percent.
Quote:
Three in five (62%) say expect their personal situation to improve in the next five years while three in ten (30%) say they expect it will stay the same and just 7 percent expect it to get worse.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/har...ex.asp?PID=796
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Old 08-21-2007, 11:55 AM   #104 (permalink)
 
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I think both polls further demonstrate that feelings about one's financial situation or life situation is a matter of personal perception, particularly if you believe it may takes years for some impacts of economic policy to be felt.

Although, I do find this particular Harris poll about "life situation" difficult to interpret. What is meant by "life has improved" - does it mean better off financially, more satisfaction with social life, better personal health, living by newly found moral or religious values, etc?

Here is another Harris poll that is more focused on the economy:
Almost Half of Americans Say the Economy is Declining and over Half Are Worried about Their Financial Situation

As the volatility continues on Wall Street, a plurality of Americans says the economy is declining while one-third of Americans say, compared to a year ago, their own personal finances have gotten worse. Just under half (45%) of U.S. adults say the economy is declining, while three in ten say it is growing and 17 percent say it is neither growing nor declining. Looking at their own personal finances, 32 percent say, compared to one year ago, their personal economic situation is worse while the same number say it is better and 31 percent say it is neither better nor worse. On top of this, over half (56%) of Americans say they are worried about their financial situation while 44 percent say they are not worried.

http://www.harrisinteractive.com/har...ex.asp?PID=798
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Last edited by dc_dux; 08-21-2007 at 12:31 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 10-14-2007, 11:44 PM   #105 (permalink)
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The Dow 30 industrials index and the S&P 500 made new all time highs, each week for the past two weeks, and the Nasdaq 2000 and Nasdaq 100 made new, 5 year highs....and if the nation's largest bank by marker capitalizartion, Citi Group, was left unassisted, to sell it's "securities" to raise funds...at market price.....the price you or I, or our mutual or pension fund would receive for selling an identical "SIV" (securitized investment vehicle) or MBS.....to meet it's obligations....it appears that Citi Group, and possibly other major financial institutions, holding these "investments"....<h3>would be insolvent</h3>

Sooooooooooooooooooooo...WTF are the stock indexes doing at all time, or long term highs? If your mutual fund or pension fund practices "dollar cost averaging"...purchasing stock as you contribute new funds....when stock prices are low.....or high.......or in between.....if our government is helping to manipulate the appearance of these banks solvency...when they aren't or won't be, soon....isn't this orchestration going to burn your portfolio, as Citi Corp's actual conditions triggers a sudden and rapid stock market decline?

Quote:
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2007/10/1...for-citigroup/
October 14, 2007, 11:02 pm
A Bailout for Citigroup?
Posted by Dennis K. Berman

When does an “improvement in liquidity” represent a “bailout”?

We’ll be studying the details of the new “superconduit” when they’re expected to be released on Monday.

But in the meantime it’s hard not to look at the current details — <a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB119240580162658678.html?mod=hpp_us_whats_news">ably scooped by Journal colleagues Carrick Mollenkamp, Deborah Solomon and Robin Sidel</a> — as a big Treasury-blessed assist for Citigroup.

Consider that an estimated 25% of the total $400 billion SIV universe comes from Citigroup-affiliated SIV funds. And that Citigroup-affiliated funds have already sold $20 billion in assets.

At its most simple, the superconduit is a means by which a large collection of banks can keep “reasonable” pricing on some of their affiliated securities. And it is this pricing that is the key to the whole operation.

It’s obvious they won’t be priced at market rates because there’s not much of a market to begin with (and why the superconduit exists in the first place).

But where exactly do they get priced? To whose benefit? And by which standard?

Even without specifics, it’s clear that Citigroup has the most to gain from this operation. And it’s clearly bad if the balance sheet of the country’s largest bank were frozen for months on end as it poured money into contractual unwindings of SIV positions.
http://blogs.wsj.com/deals/2007/09/1...nds-greenspan/
Liquidity syndicates were what helped <a href="">save the day during the Panic of 1907</a>. Given the partial return of investors to the LBO credit markets, there is plenty of reason to hope that investors will once again be buying SIV-related paper in the months ahead.

But until that time, four main points still remain oustanding:

* How much pricing confidence can be created in a market when banks are in essence buying paper from themselves?

* Might the mere existence of the superconduit create more doubts about the financial sector, stoking even more panic than the amount it was meant to quell?

* How will the banks structure their public relations to answer the simple question: Are they throwing good money after bad?

* What responsibility will be taken by the bank CEOs who blessed the rush into these structures in the first place? In other words, how will Citigroup CEO Chuck Prince explain this on Monday morning?

Quote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1192..._us_whats_news
Rescue Readied
By Banks Is Bet
To Spur Market
By CARRICK MOLLENKAMP, DEBORAH SOLOMON and ROBIN SIDEL
October 15, 2007; Page A1

The high-stakes plan to rescue banks from losses on mortgage securities amounts to a big bet that a consortium of financial giants -- at the prodding of the U.S. government -- can persuade investors to pour more money into the troubled
credit market.   click to show 


Even that's too much for some big investors. <h3>"I have never seen Treasury play this kind of role," said John Makin, a visiting scholar with the conservative American Enterprise Institute in Washington and a principal with hedge fund Caxton Associates LLC. The banks made "riskier investments that didn't work out. They should now put it back on their balance sheet."</h3>

The popularity of SIVs has boomed since two Citigroup bankers, Nicholas J. Sossidis and Stephen Partridge-Hicks, invented the strategy in London in the late 1980s. (They later left to form their own company, London-based Gordian Knot, which operates the world's largest SIV.)

Behind Treasury's concern were banks like Citigroup, whose affiliates owned $80 billion in assets backed by mortgages and other securities. The world's biggest bank, by market value, held the assets off its balance sheet and was facing the prospect of either having to unload them in a disorderly fire-sale fashion or moving them onto its books.

Either scenario would have hurt financial markets and could have damped the economy by curtailing banks' ability to make new loans to consumers and corporations. Treasury envisioned a potentially "disorderly" unwinding of assets that could worsen the credit crunch, said a person familiar with the matter.
<img src="http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/images/P1-AJ301_CONDUI_20071014204929.gif">

When it began discussions with the banks last month, Treasury made clear that a government-backed bailout or any publicly financed rescue effort was "not on the table," and that it wanted to facilitate a private-sector response, this person said.

Under the proposed rescue package Citigroup, J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. and Bank of America Corp. will set up a fund, or "superconduit," to act as a buyer of last resort. It will pay market prices for SIV assets in an effort to prevent dumping.

J.P. Morgan and Bank of America don't have SIVs, but they plan to participate because they would earn fees for helping arrange the superconduit, whose lifespan, according to people briefed on the plan, is expected to be about a year. The superconduit can buy assets from any bank or fund around the world.

Details are still being worked out but the oversight committee of the three banks will set criteria for what the new fund, to be called the Master-Liquidity Enhancement Conduit, will buy. For now, it is unlikely the fund will buy assets underpinned by subprime mortgages due to concern that they would constrain it, people familiar with the matter said. Subprime mortgages are those aimed at borrowers with shaky credit.

<h3>The plan means that some banks now stand to profit from the problems their industry helped create.</h3> Citigroup, J.P. Morgan and Bank of America, for example, will be paid fees for providing the financial backstop to the fund. In addition, the broker-dealer arms of the banks could be paid for helping the new structure raise capital. Bank of America highlighted the opportunity to generate fees in discussions leading up to the final plans, people familiar with the matter said.

Citigroup took the lead in pushing for the rescue plan. Large sums of SIV debt were coming due in November. And increasingly debt analysts were forecasting a tough future for SIVs. A Citigroup research report, issued two days before the banks and Treasury met for the first time, noted, "SIVs now find themselves in the eye of the storm."

The banks and Treasury consulted the Federal Reserve early on. The Fed was available to answer technical questions but left it to Treasury to oversee the talks. At a critical meeting convened by Treasury on Sunday, Sept. 16, Anthony Ryan, Treasury's assistant secretary for financial markets, asked the bankers about their outlook. The response was that assets could be sold, but in a process that would bring disorder to the markets.

<h3>Banks would face huge losses if their affiliated funds were forced to unload billions of dollars in mortgage-backed securities and other assets because it would drive down prices and lead to big write-offs at the new, lower market prices. Indeed, in the past several months, Citigroup's own affiliates have sold some $20 billion in assets.</h3>

Some bankers objected to the plan, calling it an escape hatch for Citigroup, which has more SIVs than any other bank, according to people familiar with the situation. The bank has accounted for about 25% of the global SIV market. As of August, assets held by SIVs totaled $400 billion.

In coming weeks, there could be challenges in getting other banks to join because they may be concerned their investors could view it as a signal that their books are weak.

In recent weeks, investors have grown worried about the size of bank-affiliated funds that have invested huge sums in securities tied to shaky U.S. subprime mortgages and other assets. Citigroup has drawn special scrutiny. <h3>The bank and its London office run seven affiliates, or SIVs, that would be able to sell assets to the superconduit.

Bringing assets onto its balance sheet would be a big problem for Citigroup because it would be required to set aside reserves to cover the assets. The banking titan operates with a capital ratio that is thinner than peers.</h3>

Auditors in recent weeks also had taken a hard-line when it came to assessing losses within SIVs. As the credit crunch worsened in August, many financial institutions argued that losses due to market volatility didn't reflect the assets' long-term value.

But on Oct. 3, the Center for Audit Quality, backed by the Big Four accounting firms, issued analysis that said market prices were real and couldn't be ignored. One paper argued that banks must periodically reassess the condition of off-balance-sheet funding vehicles and take account of market prices and any resulting losses, even if these were seen as an anomaly. If the losses become so great that a bank sponsoring one of these vehicles may have to shoulder some of their cost, "the sponsor would be required to consolidate" the vehicle, the paper said.

The Center for Audit Quality drafted the papers after consulting with the Securities and Exchange Commission. As a result, this put companies on notice that the Big Four accounting firms, along with the SEC, had taken a common stand on these complex accounting questions.
<h3>The criminals running these banks have kept their money losing investments hidden....off their books....in "off balance sheet" arrangements with "shell" subsidiaries that exist only for that purpose....just as Enron once did. This bullshit props up the stock prices of the banks, and of the entire market....and the US government has been helping them to effing do it....</h3>

There is a huge effort....even the accounting standards were revised to accomodate it....to conceal the actual, current value of the "bad paper" that banks, brokerages, hedge and pension funds, mutual and money market funds are now stuck holding, from the actual owners of this crap....the investing public...and the added problem is, some of this crap is so unpopular, that the professional portfolio managers who buy and sell it, no longer know what it is worth....so don't look for any mortgage originators to be able to securitize and sell their loans to private investors....only GSE's like Fannie and Freddie will buy them....dramatically lowering liquidity flowing into the residential real estate market....so, lower realty prices are coming...further weakening the value of the collateral backing the MBS that the above institutions already can't sell:

Quote:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...reditMess.aspx

"..Kudos to the Financial Accounting Standards Board (FASB) for creating this fiasco last September, when "it approved a new, three-level hierarchy for measuring 'fair values' of assets and liabilities, under a pronouncement called FASB Statement No. 157, which Wells Fargo adopted in January," as Weil reported.

He counted the ways: "Level 1 means the values come from quoted prices in active markets...Call this mark-to-market.

"Level 2 values are measured using 'observable inputs,' ..

...Then there's Level 3. Under Statement 157, this means fair value is measured using 'unobservable inputs.' While companies can't actually see the changes in the fair values of their assets and liabilities, they're allowed to book them through earnings anyway, based on their own subjective assumptions. Call this mark-to-make-believe."
...and the danger is...further margin calls..like the ones Countrywide, H&R Block's dead mortgage arm, Option 1, Thornburgh Mortgage Co., and the BK'd New Century, have already received. The more recent MBS are actually toxic....Thornburgh borrowed from warehouse credit lines to write jumbo mortgages...they were leveraged 19 to 1....so when they received a margin call, they sold $22 billion of their loan portfolio containing loans to borrowers with highest credit scores....at 95 cents on the dollar. This generated a loss of $1.099 biliion. If they had lent only their own money, and not been so highly leveraged, they would have generated less profits, but they would hve received no margin calls, either, and they could hold loans...absorbing occasional defaults, and earning income on mortgage interest paid by the 98 percent of borrowers who did not default..... E*Trade online broker admits to holding $12 billion in HELOCS....2nd mortgage loans which will only be partially collateralized by the properties that were put up to obtain the loans....as property values decline and first mortgage holders stand in line ahead of 2nd lien holders to take all of the cash proceeds from low return, high expense, foreclosure sales.....BUT THE CEO of CITI CORP, on OCT 1., claimed that the "worst is behind it"....and stock indexes rose.....

This will keep running in a downward (death) spiral....more than a million ARM loan resets in the next 18 months....no ability for many to carry the mortgage payments ar reset, higher interest rates, and with principle, too to be paid on loans that were initially, lower rate, "interest only"......and, with declining selling prices, many will owe more than their property will sell for....they'll default....some will walk away from their homes, even if they have the ability to pay....if prices fall low enought to wipe out their equity......in the later stages of the housing depression that we are in the beginning of, and the national economic depression that we don't even believe is coming.....but it is!

Last edited by host; 10-15-2007 at 12:29 AM..
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Old 10-15-2007, 02:21 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
The Dow 30 industrials index and the S&P 500 made new all time highs, each week for the past two weeks, and the Nasdaq 2000 and Nasdaq 100 made new, 5 year highs....and if the nation's largest bank by marker capitalizartion, Citi Group, was left unassisted, to sell it's "securities" to raise funds...at market price.....the price you or I, or our mutual or pension fund would receive for selling an identical "SIV" (securitized investment vehicle) or MBS.....to meet it's obligations....it appears that Citi Group, and possibly other major financial institutions, holding these "investments"....<h3>would be insolvent</h3>

Sooooooooooooooooooooo...WTF are the stock indexes doing at all time, or long term highs? If your mutual fund or pension fund practices "dollar cost averaging"...purchasing stock as you contribute new funds....when stock prices are low.....or high.......or in between.....if our government is helping to manipulate the appearance of these banks solvency...when they aren't or won't be, soon....isn't this orchestration going to burn your portfolio, as Citi Corp's actual conditions triggers a sudden and rapid stock market decline?
Here is some info form WSJ:

Quote:
Citigroup and other banks are struggling with so-called structured investment vehicles, or SIVs, which are off-balance-sheet vehicles that issue short-term commercial paper and medium-term notes. The proceeds are invested in higher-yielding assets such as mortgage-backed securities. The banks earn a profit from the spread between the paper issued and what they invested in.

Citigroup was the leader in this market, with about $80 billion of the $400 billion outstanding. Bank of America Corp. and J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. don't have SIVs, but have agreed to take part in the bailout plan, helping to organize the vehicle that will pool SIV assets.

Banks typically agree to provide, in an emergency, funds equivalent to 10% to 50% of a SIV's assets. Banks are realizing that investors may have been too confident, believing banks were fully backing SIVs. That put the banks in the potentially awkward position of having to provide even more support to protect their reputations.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1192...googlenews_wsj

It seem what Citi is doing with these SIV's is what banks generally do, they more or less borrow or use money at one rate and loan it at a higher rate. In order for this to work there has to be "fractional reserving", hence perhaps they keep 10% of the money and loan out 90%. All banks have a default risk and are leveraged. To the degree that Citi is leveraged to mortgage backed securities that go bad will determine thier solvency. It is possible Citi has taken on too much risk.

Here some infor from the Fed on reserving:

Quote:
The reserve ratio on net transactions accounts depends on the amount of net transactions accounts at the depository institution. The Garn-St Germain Act of 1982 exempted the first $2 million of reservable liabilities from reserve requirements. This "exemption amount" is adjusted each year according to a formula specified by the act. The amount of net transaction accounts subject to a reserve requirement ratio of 3 percent was set under the Monetary Control Act of 1980 at $25 million. This "low-reserve tranche" is also adjusted each year (see table of low-reserve tranche amounts and exemption amounts since 1982). Net transaction accounts in excess of the low-reserve tranche are currently reservable at 10 percent.
http://www.federalreserve.gov/moneta...reservereq.htm

One thing I agree on and many others agree on is that the CEO at Citi is most likely over his head and should be removed. Again, this is a situation of the small investor needing to avoid investing in companies they don't understand. If you can't understand the SEC filings, quarterly and annual financial statments, they should not be making the investments. I remember trying to read a Tyco quarterly report once, I made the mistake of trying to print it, after a ream of paper, I decided to sell the stock. that was before the scandle with Kosloski, who is now in jail.

There is justice, even on Wall St.
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Old 10-19-2007, 12:02 PM   #107 (permalink)
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ace...I'll reply to your post in detail when I have time to focus, over the weekend....meanwhile, with the major stock market indexes at multi day, new record highs, up until ten days ago...how could this come out, today?

Quote:

Reuters
Caterpillar net misses expectations
Friday October 19, 9:39 am ET
By James B. Kelleher

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Caterpillar Inc, the world's top maker of earth-moving equipment, diesel engines and gas turbines, posted disappointing quarterly earnings on Friday and cut its full-year profit forecast, sending its shares down nearly 4 percent.

The company said several key U.S. industries it serves, including trucking and nonmetal mining, are "in recession," and <h3>its machinery sales to nonresidential builders are declining as fast as sales to the residential building industry, which it said was in "severe recession."......</h3>
....and......the US dollarette:

<img src="http://futures.tradingcharts.com/charts/USM.GIF">

Chart: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/US/M

...buy and store canned tuna and veggies....a shotgun and ammo.....there is nothing to glue our American civilixation together....now that the Fed has served up the dollar for devaluation in exchange for debt mitigation and major Wall Street firms solvency......and their effort will fail......so will the dollar.....China and OPEC are still stuffed with these dollarettes.....they'll all sell them at once.....to whom?

Quote:
CHICAGO (Reuters) - Caterpillar Inc (CAT.N: Quote, Profile, Research), which makes diesel engines that power the biggest trucks on the highway, said on Friday the North American trucking market is going through a downturn that may be the worst in more than 50 years.

Speaking on a conference call to discuss its third-quarter results, Doug Oberhelman, Caterpillar group president with responsibility for engines, said the market for those engines in North America was the softest he has seen in his career.

"We're experiencing the worst market ... probably since World War II," Oberhelman said.......
...and the market just closed....DJIA (Dow 30) down 369. Nasdaq 2000, down 74, S&P 500 down 39.69........

...silver is still relatively cheap, compared to gold....silver will ramp.....buy silver, pre-1965 US coins at tulving.com ........they are easy to carry, and one of those old silver dimes will be worth $4.00. as it was in 1980 when silver reached $50/oz

<h3>....All the talking heads on CNBS have been wrong.....all the ANALysts....wrong......and FAUX launched a new financial TV channel.....a competitor of CNBS....this week.....at the top......this is your grandfathers 75 year "event"....redux.....Thank you, Mr, President:</h3>

Quote:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20010821.html

Remarks by the President on the Budget
... that we have fully funded and will be able to fully fund our nation's priorities, that we've got enough money to preserve and protect Social Security,

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLI...uri/index.html

Bush pledges protection for Medicare, Social Security

August 22, 2001 Posted: 11:54 AM EDT (1554 GMT)

By Major Garrett
CNN White House Bureau

INDEPENDENCE, Missouri (CNN) -- President Bush visited Democratic icon Harry Truman's hometown Tuesday to tout his plans for preserving Social Security and Medicare, saying both programs would be protected under his budget, even as Democrats planned to greet him with TV ads accusing him of "raiding" the programs.

Bush, speaking in a packed high school auditorium, said new budget numbers to be released by his administration Wednesday "will show in plain terms that we have fully funded and will be able to fully fund our nation's priorities."

The numbers, Bush said, will illustrate "that we've got enough money to preserve and protect Social Security, that we'll pay down over $100 billion of public debt, that Medicare -- all Medicare, every dime that comes into Medicare, will be spent on Medicare. ....

....Bush made his comments at Harry S. Truman High School, with a large contingent on retirees on hand to hear his speech, which touched on a variety of his priorities but ended with a focus on the two retirement programs.

The DNC ads accuse Bush of jeopardizing the long-term health of Social Security and Medicare. Their central allegation is that federal budget surpluses have shrunk from a projected $281 billion in February of this year to $158 billion in August. Democrats argue this brings the budget close to spending excess Social Security revenue, something Bush has vowed never to do.

"The Bush budget violates one of Harry Truman's basic principles -- protecting seniors," the ad says.

In his speech, though, Bush said his fiscal policies have helped protect the surplus despite the year-long economic slowdown. Even though the budget surplus has shrunk, Bush noted that it remains large when compared to other years.

"Despite the year-long trend….the federal budget will have the second largest surplus in history. In part, because this administration took immediate action to address the downturn. We took exactly the right action, at the right time, by pushing the largest tax cut in a generation," Bush said.

"You will hear people say that tax relief is gonna make it hard to meet the budget. But reality is tax relief is important to make sure our economy grows," he said. "I believe there are some who resent tax relief because they wanted more of your money in Washington, D.C. It's a fundamental philosophical difference."

But the Democrats say the smaller surplus means Washington is spending funds Republicans had vowed to set aside for all Medicare expenses. Coverage of Social Security tax revenue and Medicare operating expenses would require a surplus of roughly $207 billion, Democrats say.

Bush said Congress, though, must do its part to protect the nation's budget outlook. "The biggest threat to our recovery is for the Congress to overspend."

The Republican National Committee has dismissed the Democratic ad campaign.

"It's another attempt by the Democrats to use special interest money to attack the president," said Trent Duffy, spokesman for the RNC. "It has not worked before, and it won't work now."

CNN's Manuel Perez-Rivas contributed to this report.


Quote:
http://slate.com/id/2093707/
The Unlocked BoxHow Bush is plundering Social Security to close the deficit.
By Daniel Gross
Posted Friday, Jan. 9, 2004, at 1:51 PM ET

The International Monetary Fund, which usually frets about runaway fiscal policies in developing countries, yesterday released <a href="http://www.imf.org/external/Pubs/NFT/Op/227/index.htm">a report</a> that warned of the dangers to the global economy posed by the United States' lack of spending discipline, its reliance on foreign creditors, and its failure to plan adequately for future government liabilities.

Earlier this week, even as he <a href="http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/js1087.htm">called for</a> making the Bush tax cuts permanent, Treasury Secretary John Snow pooh-poohed the deficit problem and insisted the government has a plan to improve matters:

<i>"Our fiscal situation remains a matter of concern. With major expenditures to protect our nation's homeland security and fight the war on terror, coupled with a recovering economy, we still face a deficit in the $500 billion range for the current fiscal year—larger than anyone wants. But that size deficit, at roughly 4.5% of GDP (compared with a modern peak of 6% during the 80s), is not historically out of range; and it is entirely manageable, if we continue the president's strong pro-growth economic policies and sound fiscal restraint. Indeed, with adoption of the President's policies, our projections show a solid path toward cutting the deficit in half, toward a size that is below 2% of GDP, within the next five years.

The genial treasury secretary, a former deficit hawk, seems literally incapable of speaking truthfully about
the deficit.   click to show 

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Old 10-22-2007, 10:02 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Host, the Dow is up over 12% in the last 12 months. This is pretty good by any reasonable standard.

YTD the dollar is down about 8% against the Euro. Certainly not a crisis.

The budget deficit as a percentage of GDP is going down and well within a reasonable range of 40 year averages.



http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget.../overview.html
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Old 10-23-2007, 06:17 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
Host, the Dow is up over 12% in the last 12 months. This is pretty good by any reasonable standard.

YTD the dollar is down about 8% against the Euro. Certainly not a crisis.

The budget deficit as a percentage of GDP is going down and well within a reasonable range of 40 year averages.



http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget.../overview.html
For the umpteenth time, ace....the white house "deficit reduction" PR is bullshit. The white house deficti "numbers" do not include the surplus payroll withholding that comes from social security/medicare taxes, nor do they include hundreds of billions in supplemental "off-budget" "war" appropriations, because....even in the 4th and 5th years of now predictable costs of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the pentagon/white house claim is that they can't yet budget an accurate estimate.....of those costs.....

...again, ace....here is the reliable set of numbers...it includes the new amount each year that goes from paychecks and employer paid SSI/medicare taxes...into the general revenue....is then spent by the federal government and does not show up in the white house phony deficit numbers, and is owed to the SSI trust fund....it includes the supplemental, "off-budget" appropriations, too.

Notice how the US Treasury debt increase, is constant, now....at over $500 billion each year. Notice that it had declined to just $18 billion, YOY....4 months before Bush "took office in Jan., 2001.

I'll stop posting this...over and over,,,,if you'll stop posting misleading, inaccurate, low ball white house PR that is totally meaningless in measuring the trend or the increasing scope of the debt obligation of the American people.....up now, from $5,807,463,412,200 on Sept. 30, 2001...to
$9,053,884,694,839.

<h3>You must know that the graph you included in your post is meaningless....so why did you post it?</h3>

Quote:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/BPD...application=np
10/19/2007 .. $9,053,884,694,839.99 =$547 billion YOY debt increase

http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/r...t/histdebt.htm
date Dollar Amount
09/30/2006 .. $8,506,973,899,215.23 =$574 billion YOY debt increase
09/30/2005 .. $7,932,709,661,723.50 =$553 billion YOY debt increase
09/30/2004 .. $7,379,052,696,330.32 =$555 billion YOY debt increase
09/30/2003 .. $6,783,231,062,743.62 =$544 billion YOY debt increase
09/30/2002 .. $6,228,235,965,597.16 =$420 billion YOY debt increase
09/30/2001 .. $5,807,463,412,200.06
09/30/2000 .. $5,674,178,209,886.86 =$18 billion YOY debt increase
09/30/1999 .. $5,656,270,901,615.43
09/30/1998 .. $5,526,193,008,897.62
09/30/1997 .. $5,413,146,011,397.34
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Old 10-23-2007, 07:08 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
For the umpteenth time, ace....the white house "deficit reduction" PR is bullshit. The white house deficti "numbers" do not include the surplus payroll withholding that comes from social security/medicare taxes, nor do they include hundreds of billions in supplemental "off-budget" "war" appropriations, because....even in the 4th and 5th years of now predictable costs of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, the pentagon/white house claim is that they can't yet budget an accurate estimate.....of those costs.....

...again, ace....here is the reliable set of numbers...it includes the new amount each year that goes from paychecks and employer paid SSI/medicare taxes...into the general revenue....is then spent by the federal government and does not show up in the white house phony deficit numbers, and is owed to the SSI trust fund....it includes the supplemental, "off-budget" appropriations, too.

Notice how the US Treasury debt increase, is constant, now....at over $500 billion each year. Notice that it had declined to just $18 billion, YOY....4 months before Bush "took office in Jan., 2001.

I'll stop posting this...over and over,,,,if you'll stop posting misleading, inaccurate, low ball white house PR that is totally meaningless in measuring the trend or the increasing scope of the debt obligation of the American people.....up now, from $5,807,463,412,200 on Sept. 30, 2001...to
$9,053,884,694,839.

<h3>You must know that the graph you included in your post is meaningless....so why did you post it?</h3>
There are many ways to calculate federal government spending, the deficit and the debt. I don't dispute that and some measures are more accurate than others. However, looking at general trends most measures tell the same story. I don't study the numbers enough to participate in a scholarly discussion of the merits of one way of measuring the numbers over another method. However, I can talk about general trends.

We clearly know the debt has been increasing. The debt has never stopped increasing, even during the Clinton administration using the link you provided to Treasury Direct. During Clinton's term in office the debt increased 40%. So far it has increased 51% under the Bush administration. During Bush's term so far we have spent about $600 billion on the war. If we adjust for that, the debt increase during Bush's term is about 41%.

So if you compare what Bush has done to what many consider as an excellent period of fiscal management of federal deficit spending during Clinton's administration - we are almost even after adjusting for the war. Remember, Congress has authorized the $600 billion spent on the war.

So, please don't get beside yourself using bold thinking you have made some significant point. There are always more ways to look at an issue. However, no matter how I look at the numbers, I keep coming to the same conclusion, Bush is no better or worse at managing spending in Washington than any past President. In terms of increasing the debt Regan ranks as among the worst during his term, however some would argue what he did to get the economy moving after Carter lead to a boom that took us into 2000.
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Old 10-23-2007, 07:25 AM   #111 (permalink)
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ace....isn't it about the trend? The trend was reversed for the only time in the 30year period from 1970....from debt increasing at :

09/30/1993 .. $4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 .. $4,064,620,655,521.66

..... $346 billion, YOY....by the end of the last GHW Bush budget.....DOWN to $18 billion....YOY.... between 9/30/99 and 9/30/00.

...the bulk of the increase here:

09/30/2001 .. $5,807,463,412,200.06 YOY increase= $133 billion
09/30/2000 .. $5,674,178,209,886.86

....was the result of the retroactive, 2001 tax cut.

I don't understand the comparison that you just tried to post. Don't you see any negative in a trend that ramps up from increasing federal debt from $18 billion, YOY...to $420 billion...just two years later....then to mid $500's....and it just stays there....at that high level.....and is spun as declining, when it isn't....by the officials directly responisble for it happening.....

....followed by your absurd comparison of the Clinton vs. Bush debt increases.

I'm amazed at my patience....I really am.....
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Old 10-23-2007, 07:35 AM   #112 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
ace....isn't it about the trend? The trend was reversed for the only time in the 30year period from 1970....from debt increasing at :

09/30/1993 .. $4,411,488,883,139.38
09/30/1992 .. $4,064,620,655,521.66

..... $346 billion, YOY....by the end of the last GHW Bush budget.....DOWN to $18 billion....YOY.... between 9/30/99 and 9/30/00.

...the bulk of the increase here:

09/30/2001 .. $5,807,463,412,200.06 YOY increase= $133 billion
09/30/2000 .. $5,674,178,209,886.86

....was the result of the retroactive, 2001 tax cut.

I don't understand the comparison that you just tried to post. Don't you see any negative in a trend that ramps up from increasing federal debt from $18 billion, YOY...to $420 billion...just two years later....then to mid $500's....and it just stays there....at that high level.....and is spun as declining, when it isn't....by the officials directly responisble for it happening.....

....followed by your absurd comparison of the Clinton vs. Bush debt increases.

I'm amazed at my patience....I really am.....
Looking at the percentage change is "absurd"? Comparing the percentage change to compare policies during one period to another is "absurd"? Is that what you think? Or, do you think I made a calculation error? There is a huge difference. If you don't see the value in looking at the percentage change, this is pointless and you have proven that you simply have an anti-Bush agenda.
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Old 10-28-2007, 03:33 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Quote:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1193...oo_hs&ru=yahoo
Merrill Chief O'Neal Decides
To Leave Firm, Source Says
By RANDALL SMITH
October 28, 2007 2:24 p.m.

Merrill Lynch & Co. Chief Executive Stan O'Neal has decided to leave the firm, according to a person familiar with the matter.

.....The latest board meeting came after news that Mr. O'Neal had approached Wachovia Chief Executive G. Kennedy Thompson in the past week about whether the Charlotte, N.C., bank would be interested in a combination with Merrill. Mr. O'Neal didn't consult with the board before making the phone call. Mr. Thompson, who has said he is focused on integrating two recent acquisitions, said the timing wasn't right for a deal, people familiar with the matter said.....
Now it looks like Merrill Lynch is "dead bank walking"....it is reported this PM
that the CEO O'Neal was dismissed by the MER board because of:
Quote:
http://www.jsmineset.com/ARhome.asp?...53&T_ARID=5410

Posted On: Saturday, October 27, 2007, 8:16:00 PM EST

The Story Of The Week

Author: Jim Sinclair

Dear CIGAs,

Ounce upon a time (last week), there was a Wall Street Icon firm, a household name in every financial home. Its name was so famous that it eclipsed the “Buttonwood Tree.”

This firm found a great Golden Hen (over the counter derivatives) that earned them billions of dollars. Then along came the Grinch of Reality, and it was required that this Icon firm properly value the product of their Golden Hen (OTC derivatives) which when no market was found laid a giant rotten egg. You see, there is no market for these special performance contracts named OTC derivatives, nor has there ever been. Therefore they have been revalued, yet not properly valued, as the value is still value-less. The loss was Icon firm shaking.

The CEO of this Icon firm knows that there is another mountain of OTC derivatives in the firm that will eclipse the meltdown cost of the discredited credit derivatives. They are called Default Derivatives. He opened talks with a firm made up of Wall Street kids with significant capital, but not an Icon of Old Blue Blood Wall Street. He knows that the next wind that blows will take the Icon firm into a net deficit capital entity, which equals broke.

The Board of Directors of the derivative blasted Icon firm was very, very upset that the CEO would open takeover talks with some street kids. They would never approve of these less than blue bloods. You see, the trophy board of directors knows a lot about many things, but less than nothing about OTC derivative as they have been praised for years by a parade of professors and mathematicians as the mother and apple pie of profit centers.

The Board of Directors in their self righteous New England religious fever of a group of wronged people fired the CEO, not realizing his attempt was to save at least the name of the Icon firm. The now unemployed CEO knows that in time the Default Derivatives exposure way exceeds the remaining capital of the Icon firm. For all intents and purposes this Icon is busted, but the Blue Blood Trophy Board has no clue. If you tried to explain why there is risk to the blue bloods of the trophy board their eyes would glass over. Some of the older members of the blue blood boards of directors of the Icon firm would not be concerned as they would be asleep before the explanation, only waking up as the Chairman declares the meeting concluded, for that is what old blue bloods do.

So the snobs have thrown out a man who never created the problem, probably didn’t understand the risk, and got blamed after the fact.

This trophy board of directors is quite satisfied with themselves this weekend. They have no idea they blew it and there is a short fused financial nuclear event about to appear in this Icon firm’s blue blood board of director’s room, because they would never let some street kids take them over, and have thrown out the man who tried to save their bacon.

Now if Icons of Wall Street finance can go belly up, what is to say that your bank or broker cannot?

Ladies and gentlemen, prepare to defend yourselves!



THIS IS IT!
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Old 11-07-2007, 11:48 AM   #114 (permalink)
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Host,

What are you going to do to celebrate $100 a barrel oil, when the moment hits?

All of your wishes may come true, the rich in America are getting poorer by the minute with the falling dollar. Petro China was the first company to hit a $1 trillion valuation, not a greedy US company. China has announced it is selling dollars for other currencies, even Jay-Z did not use US currency to flash to his video girls, in his latest video he used Euros.

But on the other hand:

Since August of 2003 the economy has created 8.3 million jobs and has had 50 months of uninterrupted growth.
Per capita income has grown about 13% since Bush took office.
Real wages are up 1.2% since Bush took office ( a rate higher than in the 90's).
There was a 7% rise in tax receipts in FY 2007 and a 12% increase in tax receipts in FY 2006.
The deficit is 1.2% of GDP well below the historical average and trending down.

All of this in spite of the real estate melt down and subsequent credit crunch.

Please tell us why we should panic over the falling dollar, while on the other hand we needed to panic over the strength of the dollar when foreign investors where investing too heavily in our national debt and were going to cause our economic doom?

It is hard to keep up with what I should be panicking about, but I am betting you can help. I know I should have taken your advise about the sub-prime mortgage issue, you seem to have your finger on the pulse of what people are going to over-react to.
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Old 11-07-2007, 12:45 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3
Host,

What are you going to do to celebrate $100 a barrel oil, when the moment hits?

All of your wishes may come true, the rich in America are getting poorer by the minute with the falling dollar. Petro China was the first company to hit a $1 trillion valuation, not a greedy US company. China has announced it is selling dollars for other currencies, even Jay-Z did not use US currency to flash to his video girls, in his latest video he used Euros.

But on the other hand:

Since August of 2003 the economy has created 8.3 million jobs and has had 50 months of uninterrupted growth.
Per capita income has grown about 13% since Bush took office.
Real wages are up 1.2% since Bush took office ( a rate higher than in the 90's).
There was a 7% rise in tax receipts in FY 2007 and a 12% increase in tax receipts in FY 2006.
The deficit is 1.2% of GDP well below the historical average and trending down.

All of this in spite of the real estate melt down and subsequent credit crunch.

Please tell us why we should panic over the falling dollar, while on the other hand we needed to panic over the strength of the dollar when foreign investors where investing too heavily in our national debt and were going to cause our economic doom?

It is hard to keep up with what I should be panicking about, but I am betting you can help. I know I should have taken your advise about the sub-prime mortgage issue, you seem to have your finger on the pulse of what people are going to over-react to.
Hey ace! Where you been?

I don't celebrate skyrocketing oil prices, they are a consequence of a falling dollar, and the dollar falling is a consequence of huge twin deficits that did not exist, seven years ago. Back then, the US struggled under a $425 billion annual trade deficit, and required only $18 billion in fiscal year 2000 borrowing to deal with US treasury debt increase that year. Compare recent deficits of $800 billion plus annual trade deficit....probably more than $3.5 trillion total for last four years, and $2.1 trillion total US treasury deficit increase in that four year span. So, $5.6 new debt owed to foreigners to finance that twin deficit, compared to say..... less than $1.75 trillion to finance those twin deficits as a four year total in '96 - '00....

...The jobs created siince, 2003...how many do you guess in real estate, construction, and finance....al related to a real estate boom caused by artifically low interest rates. It wasn't driven by technological innovation, so no continuing pay back, as the late 90's internet bubble did...and still is....no,
just a bunch of flippers and speculators, stimulating overbuilding catalyzed by artificially low interest rates:
Quote:
http://www.marketwatch.com/News/Stor...-0E54430C3A96}

By Rex Nutting, MarketWatch
Last Update: 1:56 PM ET Oct 31, 2007

WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) -- As odd as it sounds, <h2>the government reported that inflation was at a four-decade low in the third quarter, primarily because import oil prices rose so much.</h2>
If you don't understand that, welcome to the confusing world of national income accounting, where up sometimes is down, and where sometimes one plus one can equal zero......
Quote:
http://boards.prudentbear.com/bbs_re...snsa=A#M579508
<h3>The policies of the Fed and Bush administration are, in a very real way, acting to steal money out of the consumer and give it to Wall Street.

Why? One of the reasons oil is so expensive is that the U.S. dollar is so weak. The weakness in the USD is, in large measure, due to the fact that U.S. interest rates are artificially low. They are kept artificially low because the Fed is afraid to act responsibly, as such an action would upset the stock market and Wall Street. If Bernanke were suddenly to morph into Volcker and raise rates by 200bps the dollar would dramatically strengthen.

I'm sure that the fact that the Texas oilmen and the oil companies are reaping a windfall does not cause Bush to lose any sleep.

Of course, higher oil prices really don't hurt the consumer. After all energy, food and housing don't contribute to the CPI. As long as a person does not eat or live in a house or apartment or require heating in winter or gasoline for their cars, they won't notice any inflation.</h3>
Quote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071101/...fed_markets_10

Fed pumps $41B into US financial system

By JEANNINE AVERSA, AP Economics Writer Thu Nov 1, 5:15 PM ET

WASHINGTON - The Federal Reserve pumped $41 billion into the U.S. financial system Thursday, <h2>the largest cash infusion since September 2001</h2>, to help companies get through a credit crunch.

The action came one day after Fed Chairman Ben Bernanke and all but one of his central bank colleagues voted to slice a key interest rate. It was the second time in six weeks that policymakers acted to protect the economy from the effects of the housing downturn and credit troubles.

Wall Street took a nosedive with the Dow Jones industrials losing 362.14 points to close at 13,567.87.

The Fed on Wednesday ordered its key rate, called the federal funds rate, to be lowered by one-quarter of a percentage point to 4.5 percent. That followed up on a half-percentage point cut in September. Those two rate reductions might be sufficient to help the economy make its way safely through trouble spots, Fed policymakers indicated.

The funds rate affects many other interest rates charged to millions of individuals and businesses and is the Fed's most potent tool for influencing economic activity.

The Federal Reserve Bank of New York, which carries out the central bank's open market operations, moved Thursday to inject $41 billion in temporary reserves into the financial system.

A New York Fed spokesman said it was the largest single day of operations since $50.35 billion was pumped into the system on Sept. 19, 2001, following the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. He declined further comment.

Fed policymakers at their meeting on Wednesday noted that the "strains from financial markets have eased somewhat on balance." In the past week, many Fed officials have described the state of financial markets as fragile.

Bernanke and other Fed officials have said it will take time for the markets to fully recover from the credit crisis.

Since August, the Fed has been pumping cash into the financial system to help ease strains from the credit crunch. It also has cut its lending rate to banks — a third such cut came on Wednesday.
...and, there is no growth this year, ace. Read the above Marketwatch report carefully. Inflation due to dollar weakness and high oill has negagted the actual US stock market gains...no gain at all if measured in euros....look how small the rise in oil and gold actually are if those two were bought with euros in 2002....

It's much worse than you think, ace....and it isn't an overreaction to sub-prime. Mortgage bond tranches all the way up to AAA have been clobbered. All of the paper had toxic, high risk loans mixed into it, and Moody's S&P and Fitch failed to examine and actually skeptically rate the mortgage and corporate bonds. Investors did not make demand clauses when they bought the bonds, they simply look at how the above rating firms, rated the paper....

Last edited by host; 11-09-2007 at 09:58 PM..
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Old 11-07-2007, 01:37 PM   #116 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Hey ace! Where you been?
I have not had much to say. Defending Bush, the economy, our military actions against terrorists, is pretty repetitive. The Democrats offered a glimmer of hope last year, and spiked some interest when they took control of Congress, but they have proven to be a bunch of gutless, whiny, unfocused politicians in the worst way.

Quote:
It's much worse than you think, ace....and it isn't an overreaction to sub-prime. Mortgage bond tranches all the way up to AAA have been clobbered. All of the paper had toxic, high risk loans mixed into it, and Moody's S&P and Fitch failed to examine and actually skeptically rate the mortgage and corporate bonds. Investors did not make demand clauses when they bought the bonds, they simply look at how the above rating firms, rated the paper....
A number of factors are converging. Just like there was irrational exuberance in the 90's the current conditions are being met with whatever the opposite of "exuberance" is, but in either case it is irrational.

Seems to me that if you add up all the "write-downs" happening and those that will happen, they add up to more than the sum total of the sub-prime market, the issue that triggered all of this.

I am agreeing that you were correct, but I still hold the position that the reaction was over-blown and not rational. Just let me know when it is safe to go back into the "water".
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Old 01-22-2008, 11:45 AM   #117 (permalink)
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Anyone ready to change their vote in the poll? It's going to be a bumpy election year, because, "it's the economy, stupid"!

Coming to a stock market near you:
<img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/w?s=%5EN225">
The index pictured is of the Japanese stock market. Japan enjoys astrong currency, is a nation of savers, and has a robust, export dominant economy. Exactly the opposite of conditions in the US. Japan's stock index peaked near 40,000 pts., 18 years ago, and it has never recovered. Just months ago, it was <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EN225">back up above 18,000 pts</a>. Why should our market fare any better than Japan's has, especially since US fundamentals, soundness of our currency, etc., are rotten?


Quote:
http://bigpicture.typepad.com/commen...ess/index.html

ALL US indices are now down for the past 52 weeks: The Dow is off 3.7%, the Nasdaq down 4.5%, the S&P500 lost 7.4%, and the Russell 2000 down 14.3%.

Outside of treasuries, there simply was no place to hide. <a
href="http://online.barrons.com/article/SB120070162694901715.html"> Barron's Trader column</a> notes:

...."Stock benchmarks fell for a fourth straight week, putting the market on track for its worst January ever. The Dow Jones Industrial Average ended the week down 507 points, or 4%, at 12,099. It has fallen 10% in four weeks, and is 15% off its October peak. <h2>This is the Dow's worst-ever start to a year.</h2>

How afraid is Wall Street? The S&P 500 is at a 16-month low. Only 11% of its components are holding above their 50-day averages. The bond lunge has forced the yield on 10-year Treasuries to a four-and-a-half-year low near 3.6%. One question making the rounds is which benchmark is most negatively correlated to Wall Street bonuses, and thus might make a useful hedge. (The answer, courtesy of Strategas Research: There isn't a perfect hedge, but leveraged bets on gold, or selling financial stocks short might work.)"
<h2>...And the Fed comes out today, full panic mode, but it won't help</h2>...because it is not liquidity problem, it is a solvency problem. Lower interest rates will not bail out entities with credit ratings too low now, to qualify to borrow the low interest rate money !

Quote:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080122/fed_interest_rates.html
Fed Cuts Interest Rate 3/4 of a Point
Tuesday January 22, 1:03 pm ET
By Martin Crutsinger, AP Economics Writer
Federal Reserve Cuts Interest Rate Three-Quarters of a Point to Try to Head Off Recession


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Federal Reserve unexpectedly slashed a key interest rate by a bold three-fourths of a percentage point on Tuesday, responding to a global plunge in stock markets that heightened concerns about a recession. The Fed signaled that further rate cuts were likely.
ADVERTISEMENT


The reduction in the federal funds rate from 4.25 percent down to 3.5 percent marked the biggest reduction in this target rate for overnight loans on records going back to 1990. It marked the first time that the Fed has changed rates between meetings since 2001, when the central bank was battling the combined impacts of a recession and the terrorist attacks....
Quote:
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...5Qo&refer=home
Default Risk Soars on Concern Over Bank Losses (Correct)

By John Glover and Hamish Risk

(Corrects amount of bank writedowns in seventh paragraph.)

Jan. 22 (Bloomberg) -- The risk of companies defaulting rose to a record on concern credit rating downgrades at bond insurers including Ambac Financial Group Inc. will cause bank losses to surge.

Credit-default swaps on the Markit CDX North America Investment-Grade Index rose 12 basis points to 122 at 7:32 a.m. in New York, according to Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. Contracts on Bank of America Corp. jumped 7 basis points to 100.5, according to CMA Datavision. Goldman Sachs Group Inc. rose 9 basis points to 108.

``No one wants to wait to find out how it's all going to end,'' said Nigel Myer, a credit analyst at Dresdner Kleinwort in London. ``They just want to sell, preferably at last week's prices. The general reckoning is that the banks will be taking more charges.''

Banks led by Citigroup Inc. and Merrill Lynch & Co. have a net $1 trillion at risk because of contracts with insurers, according to the International Swaps and Derivatives Association. Fitch Ratings cut Ambac's top grade last week and Moody's Investors Service and Standard & Poor's are reviewing the New York-based company, along with the largest of the so- called monolines MBIA Inc., for possible downgrade.

Bank of America, the second-largest U.S. bank, said today earnings dropped 95 percent after at least $5.28 billion of mortgage-related writedowns.

Credit-default swaps are financial instruments based on bonds and loans that are used to speculate on a company's ability to repay debt. They pay the buyer face value in exchange for the underlying securities or the cash equivalent should a borrower fail to adhere to its debt agreements. A rise indicates deterioration in the perception of credit quality; a decline, the opposite.

$100 Billion Loss

Financial firms have already lost more than $100 billion because of the worst U.S. housing slump for 26 years.

New York-based ACA Capital Holdings Inc., an insurer which guaranteed $26.6 billion of collateralized debt obligations backed by subprime mortgages, had its ratings cut to CCC from A by S&P in December. That prompted Merrill Lynch to announce $2.6 billion of writedowns on securities insured by the company

``The potential impact of rating agency downgrades to the monoline insurers on the banks has definitely thrown a spanner in the works for bank capital valuations,'' Merrill Lynch analysts said in a note to investors today.

CDOs are created by packaging assets including bonds, loans or credit-default swaps and using their income to pay investors. The securities are divided into different portions of varying risk, offering a range of returns.

Credit-default swaps on the Markit iTraxx Europe index of 125 investment-grade companies rose as much as 10.25 basis points to a record 92.5 today, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co. The index was 2.5 basis points higher at 84.5 at 12:33 p.m. in London.

Crossover Index

Contracts on the Markit iTraxx Crossover Index of 50 companies with mostly high-risk, high-yield credit ratings jumped as much as 44 basis points to 433 today, according to JPMorgan Chase & Co. It was trading at 500 at 12:33 p.m.

A basis point on a credit-default swap contract protecting 10 million euros ($14.4 million) of debt from default for five years is equivalent to 1,000 euros a year.

Spreads on investment-grade corporate debt yesterday soared 5 basis points to 134 basis points more than government debt of similar maturity, the highest since at least 1999, Merrill indexes show. Spreads on debt rated below BBB- at S&P and Baa3 at Moody's Investors Service yesterday widened 23 basis points to 651 basis points, the indexes show.

To contact the reporter on this story: Abigail Moses in London
Quote:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/20...378/144/439194
End of the line for monolines
by gjohnsit
Sat Jan 19, 2008 at 08:37:53 AM PST
Just a few days ago Merrill Lynch stunned Wall Street by reporting a net quarterly loss of nearly $10 Billion. It was the worse quarter in company history.
This much was well reported.

What didn't get nearly the attention was the largest reason for Merrill's loss. This involves a little known company called ACA Capital and a financial model on the verge of collapse.

<img src="http://photobucket.com/albums/f53/midtowng/bondinsurers.jpg">

gjohnsit's diary :: ::
Sometimes financial structures fail. For instance, the Structure Investment Vehicle (SIV) is currently in the process of vanishing forever with all the investor's money. It's architecture has been stress tested and found to be flawed.
The monoline appears to be failing its test too.


<i>Merrill reported a quarterly net loss of almost $10 billion on Thursday. Part of the hit came from $3.1 billion in credit valuation adjustments related to the firm's hedges with bond insurers, which are also known as monoline insurers.
Most of the $3.1 billion loss came from Merrill's hedges with ACA Capital, a smaller bond insurer that's struggling to survive.
The rating of ACA's bond insurance unit was slashed to CCC from A by Standard & Poor's in December because mortgage-related losses could exceed its $650 million capital cushion by more than $2 billion, the agency said.
Bond insurers agree to pay principal and interest when due in a timely manner in the event of a default. ACA has provided such guarantees on billions of securities, including more than $26 billion of collateralized debt obligations (CDOs), complex vehicles that are partly exposed to subprime mortgages.</i>
<h3>If a bond insurer gets downgraded, in theory all the securities it has guaranteed have to be downgraded too.</h3>

Financial institutions that trade in mortgage-backed securities very often buy insurance, in the same way you buy insurance for your car, to protect themselves in the event of a default by the mortgage borrowers.
The problem is that a tidal wave of mortgage defaults are sweeping the nation, creating so many losses that small bond insurers like ACA are getting swamped. As it stands, <a href="http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2008/01/18/10263/will-aca-survive-the-day-and-what-about-that-61bn-cdo-exposure-if-it-doesnt/">ACA is expected to go under</a> any day now.

<imgsrc="http://photobucket.com/albums/f53/midtowng/abx.png">

Of course this means that when the bond insurer goes bankrupt all the bonds that it had insured are no longer protected, hence they are riskier. In the world of bonds, price and risk are directly and inversely proportional. Merrill's bonds go down in value the closer ACA gets to bankruptcy. Thus the huge losses.

Monolines Death Watch

So a little bond insurer went under. So what does this have to do with the price of rice in China?
The problem is that this isn't limited to just ACA. The large bond insurers are <a href="http://ftalphaville.ft.com/blog/2008/01/18/10263/will-aca-survive-the-day-and-what-about-that-61bn-cdo-exposure-if-it-doesnt/">approaching bankruptcy</a> as well.

Credit-default swaps tied to MBIA's bonds soared 10 percentage points to 26 percent upfront and 5 percent a year, according to CMA Datavision in New York. That means it would cost $2.6 million initially and $500,000 a year to protect $10 million in MBIA bonds from default for five years.
The price implies that traders are pricing in a 71 percent chance that MBIA will default in the next five years, according to a JPMorgan Chase & Co. valuation model.
Contracts on Ambac, the second-biggest insurer, rose 12 percentage points to 27 percent upfront and 5 percent a year, prices from CMA Datavision in London show.
Ambac's implied chance of default is 73 percent, according to the JPMorgan data.

Ambac and MBIA are not small companies. The seven bond insurers are responsible for $2.4 Trillion in structured debt. Ambac alone insures $556 Billion of debt.
And speaking of Ambac, they got downgraded from AAA to AA after the market closed today. The rating agencies are also looking at cutting the ratings of MBIA next week. But like Enron, the rating agencies are way behind the market which has traded their debt as junk for months now implying "a rating of 'Caa1,' seven levels below investment grade and 14 notches below its actual rating."

``The likelihood is quite high the others will follow,'' said John Tierney, credit market strategist at Deutsche Bank AG in New York. ``Barring some significant development on new capital, it's just a matter of time before S&P and Moody's act on MBIA and Ambac.''

These downgrades mean a lot more losses are in the works for financial institutions. If all the bond insurers were to be downgraded, that would mean $200 Billion in losses for whoever holds debt that is insured by the monolines. If the monolines all go bankrupt then the losses would be much more.
To put that into perspective, total losses from the entire subprime credit cruch since August that have rocked the financial world and garnered headlines so far have only amounted to a little over $100 Billion.

That's right. The damage from the credit crunch that has worried so many people could triple in the coming weeks.

And for these struggling bond insurers, bad news can lead to more bad news. An entire financial model is on the verge of collapsing.

How it hits home

The next question you should be asking is, what sort of debt do monolines insure?

The industry guaranteed $100 billion of collateralized debt obligations linked to subprime mortgages, $22 billion of non-prime auto loans and $1.2 trillion of municipal debt.

Most local and state governments have rules that require that their municipal bonds be insured. <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/bond_insurers">Ambac and MBIA</a> alone insure $700 Billion in muni bonds.

<i>The downgrade likely means Ambac will not underwrite any more business, said John Flahive, director of fixed income for BNY Mellon Wealth Management.</i>

With MBIA's downgrade just days away, the two main sources of muni bond insurance are about to stop new business. For local and state governments that require the bonds be insured that means no new schools will be built. No sewer systems upgraded. No bridges repaired.
And it gets even worse.

Several types of municipal issuers will be most vulnerable if they can no longer secure insurance. These are borrowers like small private schools and hospitals that are not backed by a regular tax base or revenue stream. Typically, these entities have had to secure insurance to gain credibility with the public and sell their debt.

At the very least, local and state governments will have to pay higher interest on the debt they issue. Coming at a time when the economy is entering a recession, this could put an additional strain on the budgets.
At the worst, they won't be able to sell their debt at all.
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Old 01-22-2008, 08:37 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Host, I never voted having already been convinced.

cleans wheelbarrow for next purchase
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Old 01-23-2008, 08:57 AM   #119 (permalink)
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Seems pretty clear that the economy is about to become the big issue - but we have not yet had a recession. A recession is 2 quarters of negative growth and we haven't had even one yet.

I see the market dropping a little bit more, and then you'll see a rebound, especially amongst the blue chips.
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Old 01-23-2008, 12:41 PM   #120 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by host
Coming to a stock market near you:
Host on "Black Monday" 10/19/87 the market dropped 23% in one day.

Quote:
In financial markets, Black Monday is the name given to Monday, October 19, 1987, when the Dow Jones Industrial Average (DJIA) dropped by 508 points to 1739 (22.6%),[1] and on which similar enormous drops occurred across the world. By the end of October, stock markets in Hong Kong had fallen 45.8%, Australia 41.8%, Spain 31%, the United Kingdom 26.4%, the United States 22.68%, and Canada 22.5%. New Zealand's market was hit especially hard, falling about 60% from its 1987 peak, and taking several years to recover.[2] (The terms Black Monday and Black Tuesday are also applied to October 28 and 29, 1929, which occurred after Black Thursday on October 24, which started the Stock Market Crash of 1929.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Monday_(1987)

So the Dow was 1739, today it is 12,083, almost a 600% increase in 20 years. That is an average annual return of over 10%. If you bought an index representing the Dow on that day you would have almost $7,000 for every $1,000 you invested. If you invested $1,000 in individual companies you would have for example:



GE - $12,000
Johnson and Johnson (JNJ) - $16,000
Mcdonalds (MCD) - $8,000
Caterpillar (CAT) - $8,000
Phillip Morris or Altria (MO) - $16,000

Not including dividends.

Smart money sees this shake up as an excellent buying opportunity. Don't you?
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