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View Poll Results: Will "the Economy" be the most Prominent 2008 Campaign Issue | |||
No, The US Economy Seems Too Strong to Become the #1 Issue in 2008 | 12 | 37.50% | |
Yes, There is a Significant Chance That the US Economy will Be the #1 2008 Issue | 20 | 62.50% | |
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll |
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06-20-2007, 09:44 PM | #81 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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To put this article in perspective:
1.) It comes at the height of the annual residential real estate "selling" season, while US stock market indexes, DJIA and S&P 500 are posting record highs. 2.) It comes as the subprime CDO purchase price is at a new low, less than 60 cents per dollar of face value of the bonds made up of subrprime mortgage loans, packaged in tranches ($10 million "chunks") to be sold to clueless pension funds: ABX-HE-BBB- 07-1 http://www.markit.com/information/affiliations/abx 3.) It comes during a time when the leading packager and marketer of these "junk mortgage loans", Bear Stearns becomes a victim of it's own bullshit: Quote:
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It won't go down without a fight...there will be much manipulation from the major brokerages, banks, and from GSE's like Fannie and Freddie, and from the Fed itself. I predict that treasury secretary and former Goldman Sachs chairman Hank Paulsen will be telling us that he "sees the bottom", until he is replaced on January 20, 2009. I predict that the 2008 election will be about the economy, and that we will live through ten years of misery and economic dislocation not witnessed since the 1930's. What is coming ought to begin to scare the shit out of you, but denial is a pretty powerful drug. If this forum is still here, I think that I'll have plenty of bad news to post on here for a long time......and it didn't have to be this way...these criminals in financial services and in the government just couldn't resist. Most of "the rest of us" have a good portion of our net worth tied up in real estate, and this is a process to separate us from our net worth. The bottom 90 percent of us own just 32 percent of the entirety of assets in the US.....watch who those assets flow away from. in this process, and who they flow to.....it should be easy to figure out what the 2005 Bankruptcy "reform" act was intended to strangle. Let us watch to see who wakes up around here and who continues in blissful slumber. I predict that America is going to get to see the consequences of vote suppression since the 2000 election, as well as the consequences of the projection of the political influence of the christian right. Last edited by host; 06-20-2007 at 09:49 PM.. |
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06-21-2007, 07:05 AM | #82 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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One of the basic questions to ask when analyzing the economic impact of current events is who are the winners and who are the losers from an economic point of view. Short of major panic, when hedge funds fail the biggest losers are often the biggest risk takers. Buying a home has never been an overly risky investment. I guess some see the worst is yet to come, others don't.
From today's WSJ. Quote:
The folks at the Fed have been setting policy to slow the growth of the economy to fight inflation. They think inflation is now in their target range and have an optimistic outlook. Quote:
The size of our economy and its complexity says to me that the subprime issue will be but a small and temporary blip on the economic radar screen. {added} Here is more interesting info to put the "housing recession" into perspective (keep in mind that people gotta live somewhere) Quote:
So we see building permits for apartments up 17%, I am sure some can rationalize why that is insignificant, I just bring it up to see how it is rationalized.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 06-21-2007 at 07:22 AM.. |
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06-21-2007, 08:36 AM | #83 (permalink) | |
Insane
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06-21-2007, 09:02 AM | #84 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Home ownership rates in this country are at all time highs even at current price levels. We have had an extended period of low and stable interest rates which has help a great deal. There are no indicators pointing to significant increases in interest rates or indicating that interest rates will become unstable. It is interesting, but the subprime mortagage issue actually helped many marginally qualified people to buy a first home. Perhaps the net affect will be that many average hard working people who never owned a home before benefited at the cost of the "fat cats" on Wall St. What is not being reported is the fact that the vast majority of these subprime loans are not in default and will never be in default. Some of these people will stabalize their credit, refinance with a "prime" loan, gain equity, and share in the American Dream of home ownership. To me that is a good thing.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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07-05-2007, 10:00 AM | #85 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Host,
Contrary to your original premise that the housing slump would create a domino affect on the economy, it appears that first the single family housing slump will be in-part offset by an increase in multi-unit residential construction. And it appears that the commercial real estate market is red hot as indicated by rising rents and lower vacancy rates. Perhaps some of the Miami condos will be converted, or more likely - rising commercial rents will lead to more commercial development. Smart money seems to be able to stay one step ahead of the headlines. Quote:
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Host, please let me know when you concede that your premise is wrong.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 07-05-2007 at 10:03 AM.. |
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07-26-2007, 07:32 AM | #86 (permalink) | ||||
Banned
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07-26-2007, 08:19 AM | #87 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Good to see your continued interest in the subject, especially during a week of sell-offs in the equities market after a long and major run up.
There is some good news in the housing sector, but most economists are dismissing the good news. For example median prices of existing homes sales were up last month compared to the previous month and compared to last year. They say it could be because of a skewed mix of sales of higher valued homes. Inventories of existing homes are also down. They say this is offset by lower sales and people delaying putting their homes on the market. I think we are getting to the point of capitulation. The psychology of the market suggests that when there is nothing but bad news being reported, the worst has past. As a side note - Normally I would think you would be suspect of information coming from corporate America. If I were CEO of a company like Countrywide, what do you think I would do, given current market conditions? Here is what I would do. I would write-off and adjust as much as I could using the housing crisis as my reason (not violating the law, just being more aggressive in managing my balance sheet), so that a few years down the road I get my financial statements to look a bit better than they would have normally. I take my "hits" today, for a bigger payoff tomorrow. Perhaps now is the time to start dollar cost averaging back into homebuilder stocks. What do you think? Still believe there is room for shorting?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
07-26-2007, 08:52 AM | #88 (permalink) | |
Banned
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Can you verify whether the reported, declining existing home inventories include the residences that are on the auction block because of foreclosures, or, in inventories like the one Countrywide is trying to sell?
It is my understanding that foreclosures, which are rapidly rising, are not included in MLS stats, and they are not part of home builders' unsold inventories....and the forced sales, the majority sold via foreclosure auctions, will, if not now, be sold "at any price". These are the sales, even if home builders cease all new building for the next five years....and they won't, they're still building, for example, in the area around where I live....hundreds of new units....that will weigh on the market and will negatively impact average selling prices.....count on it! ace....Countrywide would have a difficult time "moving" the 10,200 housing units, valued at over $2 billion, that it now finds itself "owning", if it did not make it's rising inventory, public. Since it is public information, folks analyze the data and the trend: http://countrywide-foreclosures.blog...203-homes.html http://www.countrywide.com/purchase/f_reo.asp ...it's a train wreck and it will feed on itself.....and it will take the entire US economy with it, as the rapid decline in cheap credit seems to indicate. This is a year old, ace....but it holds true, even more so, today...with the first time buyer unable to obtain a "liar loan" or a "time bomb" option ARM loan because of the sub-prime implosion, and the halt of the trend of rapidly rising appraised "value"....because liquidity can no longer be "injected" into the RE market by first time buyers who only qualified for loans that only "worked" if the valuations reliably went "up and up and up".....lower priced home sales diminish, with the "high end" the last to fall, because buyers of high priced homes have alternative methods of financing unavailable to first time and other assetless, former buyers. If fewer homes priced at the "low end" sell, and "high end" sales do not decline proportionally....sure, average selling prices will remain firm, or even rise a bit, but that statistic does not support an argument that the market is better than it seems at first glance. It actually means, IMO, that it is worse than it seems, because when first time buyers are not in the market, it will not be sustained by high end buyers....hence the dramatic decline in total numbers of housing units sold.....the largest decline in 16 years: Quote:
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07-26-2007, 10:13 AM | #89 (permalink) | ||||||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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He says he didn't see it coming is B.S. or he was blinded by greed. He gets paid to see this stuff coming. Quote:
What happened to the Bear Stern's hedge fund was an over reliance on leverage and taking on excessive risk. The same can be said for some homebuilders who used expensive options to control land. Now that the demand has lessened some of these options are worthless. Mortgage companies relaxed their loan underwriting standards because of the boom, and now it is coming back to hurt them. The funny thing is, that none of that has anything to due with the fundamentals of the real estate market and the intrinsic value of real estate. What we really have is a panic created by "Wall Street".
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." Last edited by aceventura3; 07-26-2007 at 10:16 AM.. |
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07-26-2007, 11:20 AM | #90 (permalink) |
Banned
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DOW (DJIA) down 366 pts. right now..... foreclosed homes to be sold do not appear in MLS inventory stats....so, with foreclosures at multi-year highs, and rising....the "picture" is much worse, going forward, than this month's inventory of unsold homes "reduction", indicates.....
Today's decline of the DOW (just 30 stocks...hugely overvalued to distort the true, weakened total state of the US stock market.....) is the largest, on a number of total points, probably in at least 5 years. Bear Stearns stock is in a dramatic....like Country Wide Home Mortgage... <img src="http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/3m/b/bsc"> "Things" are progressing as I predicted they would, when I started this thread. I don't think many here will believe, if they look back at this post, next November, (2008) how poor the state of the economy, at the time they are voting for the next US president, compared to the way that it is, now. The DOW and the Nasdaq and S&P indexes are suffering damage today that will seem slight, compared to how far all three have declined, 15 months from now. Oil is $77.00 per bbl today, it will be somewhat lower, with the US fully in recession, next year at this time..... |
07-26-2007, 12:11 PM | #91 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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The DOW was 12,474 on 1/3/07 Today the DOW will close around 13,441 The S&P 500 was 1270 on 7/26/06 1416 on 1/3/07 and will close today around 1472 It is possible the market will decline further and it is possible that economic growth will stop long enough for the US to be considered in a recession. However, if that happens perhaps the FED will cease its slow growth anti-inflation posture and allow interest rates to fall. If interest rates fall there will be less pressure on ARM's and more people able to qualify for loans. If that happens demand will pick up - - then its off to the races again. The Countrywide CEO thinks that '09, '10 and '11 will be like '03, '04 and '05. I actually hope he is wrong, and that the real estate market in particular reverts back to its historical mean growth rate.
__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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08-19-2007, 03:42 PM | #92 (permalink) |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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Host, have I mentioned lately that you are once again at least six months ahead of the current news?
I hope the fish are biting.
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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007 |
08-19-2007, 03:58 PM | #93 (permalink) |
has all her shots.
Location: Florida
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My mother has been saying this for more than a year, too, and no one listened to her either, lol.
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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce |
08-20-2007, 08:10 AM | #94 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I have underestimated the markets reaction to the sub-prime catastrophe, but Host overestimates what it impact will be. I still hold the belief that most of what we are experiencing is an over-reaction but that reaction is real. The impacts outside of "sub-prime" is mostly on the margins, the underlying economy is strong. Currently the Federal Reserve is injecting liquidity into the market, many would argue that the Fed should have taken more aggressive action sooner, including lowering the discount rate. Two weeks ago, the Fed official position was to fight inflation and their concern over the economy growing too fast.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
08-20-2007, 08:12 AM | #95 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Most people could care less about econometric measures. They judge the economy by their pocketbook and the judgment is generally that they are not better off then they were 4 or 8 years ago...millions of people in debt, and overextended, living from paycheck to paycheck.
Thats why host is right that it will definitely be a top issue in the 08 campaign.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-20-2007 at 08:14 AM.. |
08-20-2007, 08:13 AM | #96 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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08-20-2007, 08:18 AM | #97 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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That is a personal judgment that people make based on their own lifestyle, spending habits, debt, cost of living, ability to save, etc., not on national measures or indices.
I cant answer that for others, but I can say without doubt, I am reasonably well off or at least comfortable, but certainly not better off as a result of the Bush economic era. My income has not risen commensurate with my cost of living and my 401K has not risen as much as it did in the 90s. Those are my measures. My conclusion regarding how others feel about the economy is based on polls, which measure voter perceptions better than economic indices. Here is a recent one from the American Research Group, in which Bush's approval rating on handing the economy is lower than his abysmal overall approval rating: Overall, 23% of Americans say that they approve of the way George W. Bush is handling the economy, 73% disapprove, and 4% are undecided. Among registered voters, 23% approve and 72% disapprove of the way Bush is handling the economy.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-20-2007 at 09:14 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
08-20-2007, 09:29 AM | #98 (permalink) | ||
will always be an Alyson Hanniganite
Location: In the dust of the archives
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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt. |
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08-20-2007, 12:31 PM | #99 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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How do you assign responsibility for our national economic conditions and in turn your individual economic condition?
National economic policies have long tails. It may take years and in some cases decades before the full impact of national economic policy changes are felt. For example a minimum wage increase, when will individuals feel the real impact? In July the minimum wage increased $.70/hour. The worker making less than $5.85 will feel an impact on his next pay check, that may be two weeks. Assuming a $.70 increase over 80 hours the individual will have $56 gross and less say they net 90% after taxes or $50.40. After 4 weeks or 160 hours he has $100.80, with the extra money the employee will have an immediate positive impact and if we multiply that by the number of minimum wage workers (also many above minimum would get salary increases), we should see an increase in consumption. If legislation is in place for future increases going beyond a current administration, who gets the credit of these pops in increased consumer spending? In California for example the minimum wage is already $7.50 and going to $8.00 in January. who gets the credit or blame for that? But wages paid are not in a vacuum. Businesses that employ minimum wage workers faces increased costs. With those increased costs, and typically a longer-term reaction. Over time the business will absorb the increased costs, lowering profits, lowering possible investments in growth, lowering taxes paid, etc. Or the business may increase prices or a combination of both. So first we have the short-term pop in consumer spending, then we have the malaise of reduced business spending or we have offsetting inflation or a combination. Let's say this happens about 12 months after the minimum wage increase. Again, crossing administrations who gets the credit and who gets the blame? What happens if business reduces the numbers of employees hired? What if there is an impact on seasonal hires, that impact may take over a year before it is felt. So now we have inflation or lower business profitability. What happens next? How long does it take? What happens with other economic policies or laws, perhaps issues planned decades ago. Let's look at say Roth IRA's, let's say now more people are using Roth's than ever, let's say many people have taken advantage to converting conventional IRA's to Roth's and paying taxes to do so. Guess what? The Government gets a pop in tax collections in current terms, but will get a decline in taxes decades down the road when people start taking out their Roth IRA earnings tax free. Then the government increases tax rates. Who gets the credit, who gets the blame? As you may see, we can go on with this for a long time with real policies that will have real impact on the economy over the short term and over the long term. My question stays the same who get the credit and who the blame? While you guys may attribute being better off or worse off to the President currently in office I don't. Our economy is far to complicated, being better off or worse off is a personal responsibility. Everyone has an equal opportunity to know the "rules". If they are winning or loosing the game, depends on decisions made by individuals - short of our government going to extremes one way or the other.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
08-20-2007, 02:11 PM | #100 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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All of that may be true (or not, and I would say not), but most Americans dont think that way when they are sitting around the kitchen table wondering if they can afford a new car, or how they will pay for their kids college, or what would happen if one spouse looses their job when over the last 6 years, they have been unable to save or worse, are just scraping by making ends meet.
They hear Bush talk about how great the economy is and they hear their Republican members of Congress say how the Bush tax cuts helped most Americans..and they shake their heads (15% from the poll above say their personal/household financial situation is getter better). Thats why the economy is always a top issue come election time. It contributed to the Republican losses in 06 (according to many exit polls) and it will be a top issue in 08 regardless of whether your economic analysis is right or wrong.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
08-20-2007, 03:00 PM | #101 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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08-20-2007, 03:18 PM | #102 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I agree that the President (and Congress) get too much credit and too much blame for the economy, but the fact is that people vote their pocketbook and their personal financial situation.. and perception becomes reality.
I mentioned 2006 exit polls. Look at two Senate races, Missouri and Montana, where incumbent Republicans lost very close races that ultimately gave the Democrats a majority in the Senate: Q - Which best describes your family's financial situation?:Your views on economic issues may not be partisan, but it is partisan for many (most?) voters. Perceptions or a "feeling of getting ahead financially or not" can and does have a major impact on elections.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-20-2007 at 03:33 PM.. |
08-21-2007, 08:42 AM | #103 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Battling polls. Here are results from a recent Harris poll.
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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08-21-2007, 11:55 AM | #104 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I think both polls further demonstrate that feelings about one's financial situation or life situation is a matter of personal perception, particularly if you believe it may takes years for some impacts of economic policy to be felt.
Although, I do find this particular Harris poll about "life situation" difficult to interpret. What is meant by "life has improved" - does it mean better off financially, more satisfaction with social life, better personal health, living by newly found moral or religious values, etc? Here is another Harris poll that is more focused on the economy: Almost Half of Americans Say the Economy is Declining and over Half Are Worried about Their Financial Situation
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-21-2007 at 12:31 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
10-14-2007, 11:44 PM | #105 (permalink) | |||
Banned
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The Dow 30 industrials index and the S&P 500 made new all time highs, each week for the past two weeks, and the Nasdaq 2000 and Nasdaq 100 made new, 5 year highs....and if the nation's largest bank by marker capitalizartion, Citi Group, was left unassisted, to sell it's "securities" to raise funds...at market price.....the price you or I, or our mutual or pension fund would receive for selling an identical "SIV" (securitized investment vehicle) or MBS.....to meet it's obligations....it appears that Citi Group, and possibly other major financial institutions, holding these "investments"....<h3>would be insolvent</h3>
Sooooooooooooooooooooo...WTF are the stock indexes doing at all time, or long term highs? If your mutual fund or pension fund practices "dollar cost averaging"...purchasing stock as you contribute new funds....when stock prices are low.....or high.......or in between.....if our government is helping to manipulate the appearance of these banks solvency...when they aren't or won't be, soon....isn't this orchestration going to burn your portfolio, as Citi Corp's actual conditions triggers a sudden and rapid stock market decline? Quote:
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There is a huge effort....even the accounting standards were revised to accomodate it....to conceal the actual, current value of the "bad paper" that banks, brokerages, hedge and pension funds, mutual and money market funds are now stuck holding, from the actual owners of this crap....the investing public...and the added problem is, some of this crap is so unpopular, that the professional portfolio managers who buy and sell it, no longer know what it is worth....so don't look for any mortgage originators to be able to securitize and sell their loans to private investors....only GSE's like Fannie and Freddie will buy them....dramatically lowering liquidity flowing into the residential real estate market....so, lower realty prices are coming...further weakening the value of the collateral backing the MBS that the above institutions already can't sell: Quote:
This will keep running in a downward (death) spiral....more than a million ARM loan resets in the next 18 months....no ability for many to carry the mortgage payments ar reset, higher interest rates, and with principle, too to be paid on loans that were initially, lower rate, "interest only"......and, with declining selling prices, many will owe more than their property will sell for....they'll default....some will walk away from their homes, even if they have the ability to pay....if prices fall low enought to wipe out their equity......in the later stages of the housing depression that we are in the beginning of, and the national economic depression that we don't even believe is coming.....but it is! Last edited by host; 10-15-2007 at 12:29 AM.. |
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10-15-2007, 02:21 AM | #106 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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It seem what Citi is doing with these SIV's is what banks generally do, they more or less borrow or use money at one rate and loan it at a higher rate. In order for this to work there has to be "fractional reserving", hence perhaps they keep 10% of the money and loan out 90%. All banks have a default risk and are leveraged. To the degree that Citi is leveraged to mortgage backed securities that go bad will determine thier solvency. It is possible Citi has taken on too much risk. Here some infor from the Fed on reserving: Quote:
One thing I agree on and many others agree on is that the CEO at Citi is most likely over his head and should be removed. Again, this is a situation of the small investor needing to avoid investing in companies they don't understand. If you can't understand the SEC filings, quarterly and annual financial statments, they should not be making the investments. I remember trying to read a Tyco quarterly report once, I made the mistake of trying to print it, after a ream of paper, I decided to sell the stock. that was before the scandle with Kosloski, who is now in jail. There is justice, even on Wall St.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-19-2007, 12:02 PM | #107 (permalink) | ||||
Banned
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ace...I'll reply to your post in detail when I have time to focus, over the weekend....meanwhile, with the major stock market indexes at multi day, new record highs, up until ten days ago...how could this come out, today?
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<img src="http://futures.tradingcharts.com/charts/USM.GIF"> Chart: http://futures.tradingcharts.com/chart/US/M ...buy and store canned tuna and veggies....a shotgun and ammo.....there is nothing to glue our American civilixation together....now that the Fed has served up the dollar for devaluation in exchange for debt mitigation and major Wall Street firms solvency......and their effort will fail......so will the dollar.....China and OPEC are still stuffed with these dollarettes.....they'll all sell them at once.....to whom? Quote:
...silver is still relatively cheap, compared to gold....silver will ramp.....buy silver, pre-1965 US coins at tulving.com ........they are easy to carry, and one of those old silver dimes will be worth $4.00. as it was in 1980 when silver reached $50/oz <h3>....All the talking heads on CNBS have been wrong.....all the ANALysts....wrong......and FAUX launched a new financial TV channel.....a competitor of CNBS....this week.....at the top......this is your grandfathers 75 year "event"....redux.....Thank you, Mr, President:</h3> Quote:
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10-22-2007, 10:02 AM | #108 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Host, the Dow is up over 12% in the last 12 months. This is pretty good by any reasonable standard.
YTD the dollar is down about 8% against the Euro. Certainly not a crisis. The budget deficit as a percentage of GDP is going down and well within a reasonable range of 40 year averages. http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget.../overview.html
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
10-23-2007, 06:17 AM | #109 (permalink) | ||
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...again, ace....here is the reliable set of numbers...it includes the new amount each year that goes from paychecks and employer paid SSI/medicare taxes...into the general revenue....is then spent by the federal government and does not show up in the white house phony deficit numbers, and is owed to the SSI trust fund....it includes the supplemental, "off-budget" appropriations, too. Notice how the US Treasury debt increase, is constant, now....at over $500 billion each year. Notice that it had declined to just $18 billion, YOY....4 months before Bush "took office in Jan., 2001. I'll stop posting this...over and over,,,,if you'll stop posting misleading, inaccurate, low ball white house PR that is totally meaningless in measuring the trend or the increasing scope of the debt obligation of the American people.....up now, from $5,807,463,412,200 on Sept. 30, 2001...to $9,053,884,694,839. <h3>You must know that the graph you included in your post is meaningless....so why did you post it?</h3> Quote:
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10-23-2007, 07:08 AM | #110 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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We clearly know the debt has been increasing. The debt has never stopped increasing, even during the Clinton administration using the link you provided to Treasury Direct. During Clinton's term in office the debt increased 40%. So far it has increased 51% under the Bush administration. During Bush's term so far we have spent about $600 billion on the war. If we adjust for that, the debt increase during Bush's term is about 41%. So if you compare what Bush has done to what many consider as an excellent period of fiscal management of federal deficit spending during Clinton's administration - we are almost even after adjusting for the war. Remember, Congress has authorized the $600 billion spent on the war. So, please don't get beside yourself using bold thinking you have made some significant point. There are always more ways to look at an issue. However, no matter how I look at the numbers, I keep coming to the same conclusion, Bush is no better or worse at managing spending in Washington than any past President. In terms of increasing the debt Regan ranks as among the worst during his term, however some would argue what he did to get the economy moving after Carter lead to a boom that took us into 2000.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-23-2007, 07:25 AM | #111 (permalink) |
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ace....isn't it about the trend? The trend was reversed for the only time in the 30year period from 1970....from debt increasing at :
09/30/1993 .. $4,411,488,883,139.38 09/30/1992 .. $4,064,620,655,521.66 ..... $346 billion, YOY....by the end of the last GHW Bush budget.....DOWN to $18 billion....YOY.... between 9/30/99 and 9/30/00. ...the bulk of the increase here: 09/30/2001 .. $5,807,463,412,200.06 YOY increase= $133 billion 09/30/2000 .. $5,674,178,209,886.86 ....was the result of the retroactive, 2001 tax cut. I don't understand the comparison that you just tried to post. Don't you see any negative in a trend that ramps up from increasing federal debt from $18 billion, YOY...to $420 billion...just two years later....then to mid $500's....and it just stays there....at that high level.....and is spun as declining, when it isn't....by the officials directly responisble for it happening..... ....followed by your absurd comparison of the Clinton vs. Bush debt increases. I'm amazed at my patience....I really am..... |
10-23-2007, 07:35 AM | #112 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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10-28-2007, 03:33 PM | #113 (permalink) | ||
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that the CEO O'Neal was dismissed by the MER board because of: Quote:
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11-07-2007, 11:48 AM | #114 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Host,
What are you going to do to celebrate $100 a barrel oil, when the moment hits? All of your wishes may come true, the rich in America are getting poorer by the minute with the falling dollar. Petro China was the first company to hit a $1 trillion valuation, not a greedy US company. China has announced it is selling dollars for other currencies, even Jay-Z did not use US currency to flash to his video girls, in his latest video he used Euros. But on the other hand: Since August of 2003 the economy has created 8.3 million jobs and has had 50 months of uninterrupted growth. Per capita income has grown about 13% since Bush took office. Real wages are up 1.2% since Bush took office ( a rate higher than in the 90's). There was a 7% rise in tax receipts in FY 2007 and a 12% increase in tax receipts in FY 2006. The deficit is 1.2% of GDP well below the historical average and trending down. All of this in spite of the real estate melt down and subsequent credit crunch. Please tell us why we should panic over the falling dollar, while on the other hand we needed to panic over the strength of the dollar when foreign investors where investing too heavily in our national debt and were going to cause our economic doom? It is hard to keep up with what I should be panicking about, but I am betting you can help. I know I should have taken your advise about the sub-prime mortgage issue, you seem to have your finger on the pulse of what people are going to over-react to.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
11-07-2007, 12:45 PM | #115 (permalink) | ||||
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I don't celebrate skyrocketing oil prices, they are a consequence of a falling dollar, and the dollar falling is a consequence of huge twin deficits that did not exist, seven years ago. Back then, the US struggled under a $425 billion annual trade deficit, and required only $18 billion in fiscal year 2000 borrowing to deal with US treasury debt increase that year. Compare recent deficits of $800 billion plus annual trade deficit....probably more than $3.5 trillion total for last four years, and $2.1 trillion total US treasury deficit increase in that four year span. So, $5.6 new debt owed to foreigners to finance that twin deficit, compared to say..... less than $1.75 trillion to finance those twin deficits as a four year total in '96 - '00.... ...The jobs created siince, 2003...how many do you guess in real estate, construction, and finance....al related to a real estate boom caused by artifically low interest rates. It wasn't driven by technological innovation, so no continuing pay back, as the late 90's internet bubble did...and still is....no, just a bunch of flippers and speculators, stimulating overbuilding catalyzed by artificially low interest rates: Quote:
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It's much worse than you think, ace....and it isn't an overreaction to sub-prime. Mortgage bond tranches all the way up to AAA have been clobbered. All of the paper had toxic, high risk loans mixed into it, and Moody's S&P and Fitch failed to examine and actually skeptically rate the mortgage and corporate bonds. Investors did not make demand clauses when they bought the bonds, they simply look at how the above rating firms, rated the paper.... Last edited by host; 11-09-2007 at 09:58 PM.. |
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11-07-2007, 01:37 PM | #116 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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Seems to me that if you add up all the "write-downs" happening and those that will happen, they add up to more than the sum total of the sub-prime market, the issue that triggered all of this. I am agreeing that you were correct, but I still hold the position that the reaction was over-blown and not rational. Just let me know when it is safe to go back into the "water".
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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01-22-2008, 11:45 AM | #117 (permalink) | ||||
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Anyone ready to change their vote in the poll? It's going to be a bumpy election year, because, "it's the economy, stupid"!
Coming to a stock market near you: <img src="http://ichart.finance.yahoo.com/w?s=%5EN225"> The index pictured is of the Japanese stock market. Japan enjoys astrong currency, is a nation of savers, and has a robust, export dominant economy. Exactly the opposite of conditions in the US. Japan's stock index peaked near 40,000 pts., 18 years ago, and it has never recovered. Just months ago, it was <a href="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=%5EN225">back up above 18,000 pts</a>. Why should our market fare any better than Japan's has, especially since US fundamentals, soundness of our currency, etc., are rotten? Quote:
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01-23-2008, 08:57 AM | #119 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ontario, Canada
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Seems pretty clear that the economy is about to become the big issue - but we have not yet had a recession. A recession is 2 quarters of negative growth and we haven't had even one yet.
I see the market dropping a little bit more, and then you'll see a rebound, especially amongst the blue chips.
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Si vis pacem parabellum. |
01-23-2008, 12:41 PM | #120 (permalink) | ||
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Location: Ventura County
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So the Dow was 1739, today it is 12,083, almost a 600% increase in 20 years. That is an average annual return of over 10%. If you bought an index representing the Dow on that day you would have almost $7,000 for every $1,000 you invested. If you invested $1,000 in individual companies you would have for example: GE - $12,000 Johnson and Johnson (JNJ) - $16,000 Mcdonalds (MCD) - $8,000 Caterpillar (CAT) - $8,000 Phillip Morris or Altria (MO) - $16,000 Not including dividends. Smart money sees this shake up as an excellent buying opportunity. Don't you?
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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1992, big, campaign, economy, issue, redux, stupid |
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