10-14-2006, 05:51 AM | #41 (permalink) |
Currently sour but formerly Dlishs
Super Moderator
Location: Australia/UAE
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seaver, i dont know why you felt that i was directing my comments at you. i wasnt. though i dont agree with everything you say, your reasoning can be understood.
however, my post was really a complaint with almost any lay person proclaiming that the quran is this or that without any knowledge or back up or evidence to prove their point except for their own literal interpretation of words on a page. as you would surely appreciate the quran has many meanings, and jurists have many opinions on every aspect of it. These jurists are the main schools of thought that you refer to (Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Hanbali) - though there are a fewer less known ones. what i was refering to however, as hiredgun pointed out is not the schools of thought but rather the Tafseer of the quran by classical scholars such as Ibn Kathir. Though he followed the shafi'i school, his work is held in high prestige by all schools of thought and they all accept his authority on the subject. Some adherents of some schools of thought wont accept the opinions of other scholars of others math'habs , but ibn kathir is an exception. i do think that you are wrong in saying that he isnt predominant in the regions in what terrorism originates. Ibn Kathir studied under Ibn Taymiya and ibn Qayyim in Syria in the 1300's, and is regarded by many as a touchstone for the salafi school of thought. the movement followed by binladen himself. in regards to scholars not coming out against terrorism, this has been covered in previous threads, but there has been many. sometimes its the good things that muslims do that dont get noticed, and only the bad things that get magnified.
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10-16-2006, 11:44 AM | #42 (permalink) | ||
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061015/...esia_poll_dc_1 Quote:
edit: for the sake of accuracy, here's some survey statistics: Sample size 1,092, sample population 187,000,000. Confidence level 95%, confidence interval 10.22. 1,092 is a small sample size for such a large population. Based on the study, we can be 95% certain that the actual number of "extremists" in Indonesia is between 16,807,560 and 20,611,140.
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser Last edited by stevo; 10-16-2006 at 11:53 AM.. |
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10-16-2006, 12:11 PM | #43 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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10-16-2006, 12:17 PM | #44 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Fort Worth, TX
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Dlk, I will yield to you on this issue, I am not as well versed in Ibn Kathir as you appear to be.
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10-17-2006, 09:42 AM | #45 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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10-17-2006, 10:18 AM | #46 (permalink) |
Pure Chewing Satisfaction
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You didn't make a point, stevo. Are those numbers right? Damned if I know. I have a feeling we disagree as to what we (the U.S., whoever) should do about those numbers, but you only left us to assume what you believe those numbers actually imply.
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10-17-2006, 10:21 AM | #47 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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10-17-2006, 10:41 AM | #48 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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Well, ok. I see that there is a number of Muslims who support terror from around the globe, I think there was a chart published a few months back about it. There also seems to be a large silent bloc that either doesn't support it and is afrtaid to speak up or is underreported, or they are complicit and in silent agreement and support of the terrorists. Or the large bloc may be mixed.
I do find it odd that not many of the Muslim leadership speak out and denounce terrorism more vocally. Yes I did see the above links on some Muslim leaders that denounce terrorism. That's good, I just wish it was more publicized (probably another thread). I suppose fear is a pretty big deterrent to speak out against the terrorists. It's like trying to find someone to testify against the local neighborhood gangster. The silence doesn't neccessarily mean that everyone supports the gangsters. Still, I would like to see more Muslims speak out, hold demonstrations against terrorism and for the press to report that as well. |
10-17-2006, 10:46 AM | #49 (permalink) | |
Pure Chewing Satisfaction
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But in the context of this discussion: Is it because Islam is, by its nature, a violent belief system? Who knows, but you can't deduce anything either way simply based on those numbers. I refuse to let it be proven and assumed so easily. And, assuming these numbers are "high," this also implies to me that the solution to the problem (whatever that problem is) would require something more intricate than simply declaring that the religion is definitively violent and should be eradicated. It just seems like an oversimplification of the issues.
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10-17-2006, 11:22 AM | #50 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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There has to be some correlation attesting to the idea that violence and Islam are related. Otherwise it would have to be one big coincidence that a majority of the worlds issues regarding human rights and conflict are perpetuated or involving of Muslims and/or Sharia law (read: Afghanistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Iran, Uzbekistan, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, Jordan, Georgia/Checynia(sp), Sudan, Libya, Nigeria, Somalia, Egypt, Yemen, and now increasingly Western Europe).
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10-17-2006, 11:35 AM | #51 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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Hmm...I don't know if there is a correlation. I believe it to be more corruption and manipulation by bad leadership. Perhaps a corruption of Islam for nefarious purposes is more the point. I don't feel like the leaders of many of those countries represent Islam anymore than I feel George Bush represents Christianity. I think the Taleban are about as unIslamic as you can get with their hypocrisy. Allowing the opium crops, etc. I can't remember but didn't they ban music and dancing but were caught listening to Britney Spears?
I also think Islam is used as a political tool further twisting the religion and blurring the lines. So in my view, it's not Islam that is to blame but rather the people who corrupt it, much like any religion. Sharia law might be a good debate for another thread so it can be more focused. |
10-17-2006, 11:42 AM | #52 (permalink) | ||
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10-17-2006, 11:51 AM | #53 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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America doesn't act as a Christian actor. American government doesn't act within a solely christian framework. We didn't act in Iraq for Christian purposes, we operated for geo-political purposes. Evangelical terrorism is so statistically small and insignificant, that it is effectively an abherration of Christians or the American population as a whole.
Where is any neo-con propaganda btw? I mean unless of course you consider reality and facts to constitute propaganda.
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10-17-2006, 12:00 PM | #54 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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10-17-2006, 12:23 PM | #55 (permalink) | ||
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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10-17-2006, 01:26 PM | #56 (permalink) |
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Location: essex ma
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no ustwo--you posted a sequence of quotes from famous dead guys whose ignorance about islam made you feel as though yours was legitimate. and you bit it from a far right blog that you did not cite.
what was surprising is that while the thread was twitching its way toward oblivion, an interesting discussion happened between hiredgun, dlishguy and seaver. so even here you can see that discussions between opposing political viewpoints concerning islam are possible without degenerating into the idiocy of the present one----where you now have arguments that i take to have been made seriously---though frankly have trouble imagining it possible--that "a percentage" of the world's muslim population "supports" this ridiculous construct you call "terrorism" therefore islam as a whole has some kind of proclivity toward violence. here is this brilliant logic in another context: only people who drive cars have strapped a bomb to the undercarriage and driven into a building. therefore everyone who drives a car may strap a bomb to the undercarriage and drive into a building. to make this appear legitimate, the qualifier gets tossed in that a certain (arbitrary) percentage of car drivers support such actions. the usual pattern from here would be to generate a whole series of meaningless generalizations about people who drive cars----all of which would be further qualified--sooner or later--with "i know a couple of car drivers and they are nice people.....they are not like the rest. therefore i have no particular problem with car drivers." the argument now being tossed about with reference to islam is, if anything, even more stupid.
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10-17-2006, 01:55 PM | #57 (permalink) | |
Pure Chewing Satisfaction
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That's the impression I'm getting from the convesative side of this discussion, at least. I sense that you guys have abandoned all hope that a war with Islam could be avoided, and are now of the belief that the only outcome must and will be all out war. Perhaps that is the key difference in the perspectives in this thread.
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10-17-2006, 03:49 PM | #58 (permalink) | ||||
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These quotes would be even more of a riot!
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10-17-2006, 04:17 PM | #59 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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I have a challenge to the tilted left, or those of you that view the Islamic world as a mystical land with enchanted chocolate rivers and yummy rainbow gum drops.
Refute what I put forward, and if possible (here's the tricky part) do it without bringing in Christian culpability (also I don't how the Treaty of Tripoli relates as it was ratified with different versions, some without the tenth clause, and was allowed to die after few years time) or the playing of the following two cards: It must be the leaders/corruption or this as all mere "neo-con propaganda". Do yourselves a favor and open your minds on this one, it will be a stretch for some of you, but I have a feeling that some of you are at least reasonable enough to acknowledge the fact that there is a major problem in Islam, that it is not limited to a small minority on some dark continent far away, and it is not getting any better.
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10-17-2006, 04:22 PM | #60 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Before I'd even touch the rest of your post, you must expound on this facinating idea. Quote:
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. Last edited by Ustwo; 10-17-2006 at 04:25 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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10-17-2006, 07:21 PM | #61 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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I think the point that many here have made is that a policy to fight terrorism would be more effective if it were to focus on how to respond to the extemists rather than to continue to attack the religion, which will only result in more anti-west sentiments and ultimately more moderate muslims who feel attacked and may be moved to the extemist beliefs themselves.
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10-17-2006, 08:01 PM | #62 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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How does our policy attack the religion? Does acknowledging the fact that they are muslims perpetuating an idealogy spawned from the Islamic tradition make it an attack on the religion? I guess so. Confounding.
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10-17-2006, 08:05 PM | #63 (permalink) |
Pure Chewing Satisfaction
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thank you, dc, that's my opinion as well.
Has any of the left here claimed that Islam has a spotless reputation? Of course not. Our contention has been that problems do exist, but the solution is not to make blanket statements and policies regarding Islam. We've seen people in this thread (hiredgun) and friends of people in this thread (Ustwo's lunch date) that represent a level-headed, reasonable side of Islam. We're not sure whether that group represents the majority of Muslims, but we need to make sure those people become the ones in power of the Islamic people, and not the extremists that are currently causing all this trouble around the world. Another reason we are against the notion of being against Islam as a whole, is that it takes us down a road that has no winners. Here's the only set of events I see that starts with the ideals put forth in the OP: 1. Islam is inherently evil and violent. 2. In order for the world to be safe, Islam must then be destroyed, since it's mere presence brings evil and violence. 3. Declare war (in some form or another) against all followers of Islam, since they are, by definition, evil and violent. 4. Partake in said war, causing mass international instability, and countless casualties. If there's another set of events that I'm not seeing, please let me know. Because I, for one, find that to be an unacceptable situation. One that needs to be avoided at all costs. My idea for avoiding this is to reject the first statement, then work to get moderate Muslims who are not evil and violent into control of the Islamic community. Is that so unreasonable?
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10-17-2006, 08:15 PM | #64 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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How are you going to get the moderate muslims to stand up? They don't seem to be willing to do it by themselves, repression and Sharian rule is growning in the (Islamic) world, not declining.
Also, I must ask this question, Hiredgun if you'd be so kind, where are you from originally? Being left to assumptions, it seems apperent to me that you are problem from America/Canada. As such you are not representative of the global Islamic culture; Hiredgun to me would be a dasterdly "westerner" one who lives within the Judeo-Christian realm of the infidels.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 10-17-2006 at 08:20 PM.. |
10-17-2006, 08:15 PM | #65 (permalink) |
Banned
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"I think the point that many here have made is that a policy to fight terrorism would be more effective if it were to focus on how to respond to the extemists rather than to continue to attack the religion, which will only result in more anti-west sentiments and ultimately more moderate muslims who feel attacked and may be moved to the extemist beliefs themselves."
And how would you respond to islamic extremism without offending these moderates that you speak of, who at our reaction to this extremism, would become extremists themselves? It seems to me your acknowledging that "moderate", which I would guess is what you think is the majority, of muslims are ready to start flying planes into buildings and setting up roadside bombs at the drop of a hat. You're such a racist... |
10-17-2006, 08:31 PM | #66 (permalink) | |
Pure Chewing Satisfaction
Location: can i use bbcode [i]here[/i]?
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I'm inclined to believe that it would be a more desirable task to accomplish than any vague war against what could be the majority of the Islamic community, though.
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10-17-2006, 08:35 PM | #67 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Moderate muslims are in power in most of the top 10 muslim countries and are standing up, with the exception of Iran, which doesnt have the support of the people. The goverments of Indonesia, Pakistan, India (not a muslim government), Turkey, Egypt, Algeria (not moderate, but cracking down on suspected terrorists), Morroco are all working with the US to some extent to fight terrorism, as are the smaller muslim nations of Jordon, Kuwait, and others. And Mathew, your "racist" comment is not worthy of response.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-17-2006 at 08:59 PM.. |
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10-17-2006, 09:03 PM | #68 (permalink) | |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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"Moderate" is the word eh?
Familiar, this is, I have seen this before... Ustwo addressed that here http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...ight=Indonesia, but for arguments sake.... Quote:
India- Historical reference fact, where have the bloodiest religious wars ever been fought? When? What religions? Case in point India/Pakistan, four wars this century 47', 65', 71', 98', Moslems and Hindu's. Building off that seems to me problems and Kashmir still exist, also this doesn't take into account the problems in Bangladesh's formation. I wonder why they might want to fight in our war on terror? because they have been dealing with Islamic extremists for 60+ years! Turkey- let's ask the Kurds what they think, also I am a little disconcerted about their whole reaction to the Pope's comments awhile back. They've seem to been dealing with their own inner problems with terrorism, some destructive acts, I wonder if it is not a discontent population or Al Qaeda? Egypt- Ustwo made a good point in the linked above thread... they are the second biggest recipent of America aid. Similar to other countries they also have serious internal problems with Islamic extremists, seems to me a certain leader of theirs was assassinated a few decades back... Also your point about Iraq and Sharian law bring up its own plethora of issues to deal with. Namely that Iran is starting to excert massive influnence in Iraq, don't know if you know but Iran is Shiite, so is majority of Iraq, there was a war that killed a million people, Saddam was secular ran off the clerics to Iran, they are back, there are ones like Al- Sadr one of the biggest problems we are facing. That's a lazy detailed commentary. I think most people monitoring the situation in Iraq, see it has a problem that Sharia law is being adapted, especially because of the situation with Iran.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. Last edited by Mojo_PeiPei; 10-17-2006 at 09:10 PM.. |
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10-17-2006, 09:38 PM | #69 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I'm not ignorant of the internal killings and the unrest stirred up by the extemists in these countries, but the fact is that these governments are moderate (as are the majority of their muslim population) and are working with the international community and particlulary the west, to strengthen their response to these internal extremists and to institute political and judicial reforms, albeit not as quickly or as succesfully as we would like.
If we want them to continue, its in our interest not to inflame their more moderate muslim populations with policies like attacking a sovereign muslim country that did not pose a direct threat to us and where our actions killed thousands of innocent muslim civilians, locking up (some for years at a time now with no outside contact) and torturing "suspected" muslim terrorists with no opportunity to prove their innocence, making references to islamofacists, etc. Edit: I agree with you on Iraq/Iran connection . The result of our invasion was to create a scenario where SCIRI and Dawa (the two shia sectarian political groups with connections to Iran) would be in control of the government and would strengthen ties to Iran. Iran, Iraq to strengthen security, intelligence ties I think it was Howard Dean who predicted this before the war
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 10-17-2006 at 10:09 PM.. |
10-17-2006, 09:49 PM | #70 (permalink) | |
Artist of Life
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Edit: Screw it. I'll give it a try. Last edited by Ch'i; 10-17-2006 at 09:59 PM.. |
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10-17-2006, 09:57 PM | #71 (permalink) |
Kiss of Death
Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow
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You would engage in such a challenge but you would loose. Any answer I ever encounter comes down to me being a bigoted xenophobe and not once addresses the issue at hand. Don't think that I have a monopoly on excluding perspective. Please give me your leftist drivel by the way, I would welcome it, you might find I am not so unreasonable when presented with facts and basis, as opposed to condescension and pomp.
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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition. |
10-17-2006, 10:02 PM | #72 (permalink) |
Artist of Life
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I wasn't talking about yo.... *sigh* nevermind. Let's start.
The accusation is that Islam is directly linked to, and causes, violence. I disagree. Let's start by taking a look at the top 59 populations of Islam in the modern world. ______________________________________________________________ Sunni (green) and Shi'a (blue). (based on the CIA factbook) Rank) Country, Muslim Population, % Muslim ____________________________________________________________1) Indonesia, 213,469,356, 88.22% 2) India, 174,862,240, 16.2% 3) Pakistan, 162,487,489, 98% 4) Bangladesh, 129,681,509, 88% 5) Egypt, 70,530,237, 91% 6) Turkey, 68,963,953, 99.8% 7) Iran, 67,337,681, 99% 8) Nigeria, 64,385,994, 50% 9) China, 39,189,414, 3% 10) Morocco, 32,300,410, 98.7% 11) Algeria, 32,206,534, 99% 12) Afghanistan, 29,629,697, 99% 13) Sudan, 26,121,865, 65% 14) Iraq , 25,292,658, 97% 15) Saudi Arabia, 26,417,599, 99.9% 16) Ethiopia, 24,622,000, 32.8% 17) Uzbekistan, 23,897,563, 89% 18) Russia, 21,513,046, 15% 19) Yemen, 20,519,792, 99% 20) Syria, 16,234,901, 88% 21) Malaysia, 14,467,694, 60.4% 22) Tanzania, 12,868,224, 35% 23) Mali, 11,062,376, 90% 24) Niger, 10,499,343 90% 25) Senegal, 10459222, 94% 26) Tunisia, 9,974,201, 99% 27) Somalia, 8,548,670, 95% 28) Guinea, 8,047,686, 85% 29) Burkina Faso, 7,658,922, 55% 30) Azerbaijan, 7,389,783, 93.4% 31) Kazakhstan, 7,137,346, 47% 32) Tajikistan, 6,805,330, 95% 33) Côte d'Ivoire, 6,677,043, 38.6% 34) Congo (Kinshasa), 6,008,500, 10% 35) Libya, 5,592,596, 97% 36) Jordan, 5,471,745, 95% 37) Chad, 5,306,266, 54% 38) France, 4,549,213, 7.5% 39) Turkmenistan, 4,407,352, 89% 40) Philippines, 4,392,873, 5% 41) United States, 4,558,068, 1.5% 42) Kyrgyzstan, 4,117,024, 80% 43) Uganda, 4,090,422, 15% 44) Mozambique, 3,881,340, 20% 45) Sierra Leone, 3,610,585, 60% 46) Ghana, 3,364,776, 16% 47) Cameroon, 3,276,001, 20% 48) Thailand, 3,272,218, 5% 49) Mauritania, 3,083,772, 99.9% 50) Germany, 3,049,961, 3.7% 51) Oman, 2,971,567, 99% 52) Albania, 2,494,178, 70% 53) Malawi, 2,431,784, 20% 54) Kenya, 2,368,071, 7% 55) Eritrea, 2,280,799, 50% 56) Serbia and Montenegro, 2,274,126, 21% 57) Lebanon, 2,257,351, 85% 58) Kuait, 1,985,300, 59% 59) United Arb Emirates, 1,948,041, 76% Indonesia, India, Turkey, Nigeria, China and Morroco take the majority of the top ten largest Muslim populations. Yet these countries are not consistently engulfed in jihad, or Islam based violence. Most of the conflict in these countries are out of political coups, political disagreement on some level, or religous persecution (not to be confused with religion-based-violence). Somalia is a great example of this. Sources: US State Department's International Religious Freedom Report 2004, CIA FactBook, census.gov, www.conflicttransform.net Last edited by Ch'i; 10-17-2006 at 11:46 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
10-17-2006, 11:49 PM | #73 (permalink) | ||||||
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<b>I begin with Islamophobe, Daniel Pipes, writing in David Horowitz's neocon propaganda "rag", "FrontpageMag:</b> Quote:
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10-18-2006, 05:44 AM | #74 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Ch'i do you know whats going on in India, Indonesia, and Nigeria in relation to Islam? China its harder to get reports from due to the nature of its government. Turkey is kept in check by the same system that is keeping Algeria out of the hands of the radicals, which is the military is very secular, and will not allow radicals to come to power or they will overthrow the government. One of the most interesting 'checks and balances' I've seen. This still hasn't saved 150,000 Algerian citizens, or kept radical protests out of Turkey.
If this is your shining example of the peaceful Muslim, you might want to rethink.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
10-18-2006, 05:55 AM | #75 (permalink) | |
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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Arguing, debating, or whatever its called, with a position such as yours is pointless to say the least. I'd much rather prefer to hear what Ch'i and DC_dux have to say, what they think. At least it contains substance. Sure beats hearing "its teh proaganda!!!!11!! you only 'know what you know' because your too stupid to think for yourself" bit I hear from you on any number of issues. ps. you forgot the reverse vampires.
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10-18-2006, 06:26 AM | #76 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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If you look at the most recent State Department reports on Turkey and Indonesia, you will certainly see numerous and agregious human rights violations but the reports also cite how these moderate (yes, moderate) civilian elected governments are trying to reform.
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10-18-2006, 06:28 AM | #77 (permalink) |
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Mojo_PeiPei: Sure. I'm originally from Pakistan, and I was raised in a very religious household. I'm clearly English-educated, of course, but I'm not even really important here. I know tons of Pakistanis who have never left Pakistan. I've never met one who didn't mourn 9/11, or who condones terrorism in general. Such people exist there, but generally not in the mainstream society. They represent an extreme. The same is true in Egypt, where I recently lived for a year. This is true even among those who would be called Islamists... those who espouse political Islam or push for the enforcement of Islamic law.
Again, let me reiterate that when I say that, I don't mean to entirely marginalize the problem. I acknowledge the problem. There is a problem with Islam in the world today, and it's a problem that Muslims will need to do much more to address. But to say that it's a problem somehow fundamental to Islam, that brutishness and violence somehow form the very essence of Islam, is in the realm of the absurd. It simply doesn't reflect the lived reality of over a billion people on this planet. |
10-18-2006, 06:30 AM | #78 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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10-18-2006, 06:36 AM | #79 (permalink) | ||
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Location: Tobacco Road
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10-18-2006, 06:36 AM | #80 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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UStwo....I dont see how that photo contributes to the discussion in any meaningful way.
If you and Host have problems with each other, I suggest you both take it private.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
Tags |
quotes, riot |
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