jorgelito

For awhile, all of our debates have been "stuck", going nowhere, dependent upon differnt news sources etc. This summer, I chose to see for myself. Some of you may know or maybe none of you (well, at least Elphaba does; much appreciated by the way), I was gone for the summer on a trip across Europe and the Middle East. I was in Egypt and Israel for the recent war and had a first hand experience. I was in Tel Aviv, Haifa, the border towns with Lebanon, the West Bank, Jerusalem, and Eliat. My experience is mine, so it is entirely opinionated of course, but I am reasonable I think. We can debate that too if you'd like.

Anyways, it's been a long time coming but it is time consuming. I want to first post an illustration of the old adage, "There are two sides to every story" and try to find some points for civil discourse.

As a precursor, I will just put this out there. I am usually right of center but I try and keep an open mind (but not so open that my brain falls out). Take the info as you will, I didn't really want to say it but I felt it was necessary at this time. More to the point, I am a moderate. One of many. Yes, we are around in large numbers, often overlooked and not heard. I was inspired by the monster thread in Members - What happened to TFP so this is my small effort.

Here are some pics of the West Bank as of August 19th or so. One from the Israeli side, and from the Palestinian side.

From Israel:


From the West Bank:


I really like these pictures as they illustrate well the perspectives of the two sides. I also spoke with some Palestinians as well. It intersting how the same wall can generate such diametric views (sound familiar?).

The point: There's always more than meets the eye and sometimes, we are clouded by our own views.

My opinion: I understand the Israeli need for security, but I also see how it affects the Palestinians as well. What's interesting to me is, I sort of envisoned this wall as on we (the US) could conceivably employ with our border with Mexico. Then I realized how that would change the dynamic of the relationship between our two countries.

To me, the wall is very symbolic of the tit-for-tat nature of the Israeli-Arab conflict and how a few extremists on both sides have ruined it for everyone.

Thanks for listening.

powerclown

Interesting pictures.

One side illustrating an "official viewpoint" -- the other their "unofficial" viewpoint. I notice that on the Palestinian side, most of the graffitti is in english. Do you have any idea as to why this is, jorgelito? Also, did you - as an american - feel in danger during your time in israel/west bank?

jorgelito

I gotta tell you: I really like the juxtaposition of the two views - One from the Ministry of Tourism of all things. The graffiti is most interesting. Yes alotof it is in English with some in Arabic and German too. I have more pics of the wall graffiti I will try to post later.

My immediate reaction was one a reminder of the Berlin Wall. My hypothesis is that the Palestinian graffiti was influenced by the Berlin Wall. YOu see a lot ff Ghandi quotes (I think Host had it in his sg before), some Pink Floyd lyrics, stuff like that. So perhaps, the English stems from the fact that alot o these catch phrases are indeed from English sources. Secondly, I believe that perhaps, the English is "media" friendly, to perhaps tie it in with the other thread. EX: If a journalist is filming in the area, then Enlish graffiti is a much more intersting clip or story and more to the point, readily accessible to the viewership.

Good question with the American bit. It was one of the most fascinating aspects of my trip overall. As an "ethnic" American, I had difficulty convinving anyone that I actually was American even when I showed them my passport. It got kind of irritating after a while. But because I tend to have somewhat of an American mindset, at first I was like, "no fear, we can't give into fear" but then when I was actually in those places, I felt weird. It was double strange because while I don't "look American", my feelings were American - I felt tense atmosphere and mistrust (sort of).

In general, I found the Europeans and the general populace of Egypt (from a tourist perspective) to be rather docile and congenial. Isrealis are bit more "reserved"? or tentative in general - eventually they open up a bit. The Palestinians were, in general, friendly too, to my surprise, with few exceptions. It was....refreshing. EX: Most people like to ask where are you from? When I say, America, for the most part (after disbelief), they say, great, America is good, welcome to _______ . In Egypt and the West Bank, I thought the welcome was for my tourist dollars but I did meet many genuine people. In Israel, they were still very suspicious and I'm an ally!! Ultimately, it's all about moderation - people are the same everywhere - there are some nice people, there are some jerks, but in general, people are ok.

At the end of the day, of all ironies, I felt the least safe back home in Los Angeles. My mind boggles over this one.

Elphaba

jorgelito, I have a thousand questions about your trip, but I will try to stick with the wall for now.

The difference in appearance on each side of the wall speaks volumes alone. How difficult was it for you to pass from one side to the other? Did you see a difference in treatment toward the Palestinians entering and exiting?

The Palestinian side of the wall troubles me in a number of ways. Is there meaningful work to be had? Why does Gaza appear so impoverished? Why isn't there more commerce and the building of infrastructure? I realize that Arafat's government was corrupt and very little if any money received went to the betterment of the people or the economy, but where are the entrepreneurs? I agree with you that the wall is expressive of great anger, but is it caused by a sense of defeat, generations of victimhood, or something much more complex?

What thoughts did you come away with?

Oops, sorry. I just peppered you with questions without really responding to your OP. I simply don't feel I know enough about the situation to have strong beliefs one way or the other.

powerclown

I heard a rumor that Hamas kill off any potential entrepreneur in their territory as a suspected Israeli sympathizer.

Elphaba

Huh?

cyrnel

Okay, time out. I'm taking a break.

Hopefully someone else will notice the "MacOS" effect on that wall.

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roachboy

i think polarization in debate about israel here reflects the polarized information streams within the united states about israel. support for israel in the states seems to entail a much higher degree of refusal to the lot of the palestinians than it does in israel itself. the idf's treatment of the palestinians is in the main truly barbaric---it causes trouble in many sectors of israeli political life because it introduces ambiguity about the rationale for the continued occupation of the west bank and gaza. the israeli right has used "terrorism"--which i see largely as a response to sustained, brutal oppression--to justify continuation of military repression--an entirely self-defeating policy that is, to my mind, THE single most important cause of "terrorism"...if you put yourself in the place of the population of gaza, a snapshot of which is given in the editorial from todays ha'aretz below, what would you do? if this kind of action was the norm, if there seemed no hope of stopping it, how would you react?

i am not sure of the causes that one could point to in order to explain the polarized information context the americans have created for themselves. but this polarization is one of the roots of the vitriol in debates, there seems to me no doubt about that.

here's the edito:


source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/757768.html

other causes have been mentioned in passing in the context of various threads on lebanon and gaza---the fact that there was considerable debate within zionism before 1948 about how to address coexistence with the palestinian/arab populations and that, to my mind at least, the wrong side won out in the longer run...the notion that israel must be a jewish state, which is at the heart of the refusal of the "right of return" the results of which have been that thousands of palestinians have been left to rot...

another problem: american supporters of israel refuse to recognize that the situation endured by israel changed fundamentally after 1967. there is no threat to israel's existence as such. there simply is no such threat. israel is a regional superpower and no combination of forces are in a position to destroy it. the appeal to such threats---which it routine in the american press when it comes to pro-israeli coverage----is totally disengenous. but folk believe it and their positions often follow from that.

then there is the bush administration's virtual sanction of racism directed against arabs/muslims. this is another problem. echoes of it poison almost every debate on any issue related to this question. it is often a quite foul type of racism, and you see it routinely from folk on the far right who post on the topic. i find this personally offensive and find it really difficult to remain open in a conversation when i find this kind of racism operating.

this is a tough, complex and emotional area.

on the other hand, i should say that while i think i understand why conditions imposed in the occupied territories would lead the people under occupation to consider "terrorism" i do not endorse the tactics themselves. but it seems to me that a rethinking of approach is the only way out, not more of the same oppression that is at the root of this phenomena to begin with.

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it make you sick.

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jorgelito

Ah, RB, I think you've touched upon the chicken:egg thing. Also the tit-for-tat. I personally don't think that all Palestinians or Arabs endorse terrorism, but rather a small extreme group like Hamas. Hamas' extreme views may not be the most popular but may be tolerated or turned a blind eye to because they fill a void where the Fatah government or Israelis and even international committee have failed. For example, a lone or small group of radical extremists commit a terrorist act that compels a retaliation by Israel such as sealing the border, squeezing the local economy. The PA does not or can not provide for the people so HAmas steps in. Hamas members bring bread, water, pay for funerals gaining popular support.

Recently, the Palestinians went on strike because the Hamas government has not paid them in 6 months. This is hardly the behavior of Hamas sympathizers and seems to illustate the interrealtionship of the Palestinians. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5308330.stm

In short, the Israelis want the acts of terrorism to stop. Typically it would stop then things would relax and a little bit of trust would build and the two sides would continue ever so slowly in talks. But all it takes is for one idiot to ruin the whole thing and cause the whole house of cards to fall. The retaliation by the Israelis doesn't endear them to the Palestinians and the isolated acts of terrorism by extremists doesn't exactly endear the Palestinians to the Israelis either. What happens is everything gets blurred as the emotions get heated up and it becomes a tit-for-tat revenge/retaliation series that never ends.

In my opinion, a line needs to be drawn in the sand - along the lines of enough is enough, all the violence has to stop. Perhaps a base model of the South African variety may povide a good start - the Remorse and Reconciliation. In other words, a clearing of the slate, otherwise, it will just be an endless cycle of violence.

Arabs in Israel seem to be doing just fine (from an observational, anecdotal standpoint). I met many in Jersusalem and Tel Aviv. The stores and restaurants I patronized seemed to be doing well. One notable exception was that the majority of stores like tourist souvenirs etc fared badly when I was there due to the war because tourism was down. I found it ironic that the terrorists hurt their "fellow Arabs" the most. EX: Launching rockets into the West Bank. Also the downturn in tourism due to terrorist activities hurt the Arab merchants the most.

Another point to consider is, the gaza Strip and the West Bank are very different. If I'm not mistaken, the Gaza strip is primarily Hamas controlled and the West Bank is more Fatah territory - Ramallah I think is where their headquarters are.

Elphaba

I followed the six-day war while in highschool and I became a passionate supporter of the "little guy." Frankly, what American would not get behind the remnants of a people returning to their homeland, beset on all sides by more powerful nations that want them gone? But passion often times subplants reason. It has only been in the last few years that I have begun to look closely at my unquestioned allegiance to Israel. Reading the international press gave me an entirely different perspective not found in the US press.

That said, it is of no surprise to me that the American public continues to support Israel unconditionally. Anyone who doubts the press is automatically dubbed a liberal anti-semite, and if the press offers a more balanced article they are accused of the same.

roachboy

i dont see this as a chicken-egg problem, frankly.
i see "terrorism" as the direct consequence of the way in which israel has chosen to carry out its occupation.
there are lots of alternatives that could be explored--it is sad that the israeli right has successfully presented the situation as excluding other possibilities--like ending the occupation. like ending the reliance on brute military force. like ending the brutalization of palestinians on in gaza, and dismantling the settlements on the west bank.

i know the alternate interpretation---the chicken-egg one--and have thought about it for quite some time--but it holds no water for me. simply because of the overwhelming assymetry of the conflict, the absurdity of the claim that israel's survival is at stake, etc. the simple fact seems to me that there are options, but the israeli right benefits politically by framing them out of the question and so there we are.

on an unrelated matter (feel free to respond in the moderate thread, if you think it a better place): what exactly does being a moderate in the present american political context actually mean?

__________________
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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

jorgelito

Ok RB, I'm game. Let's explore the alternatives together.

1. If Israel ends the occupation can we presume there would be an end to the terrorist activity? There is one circumstance that I think I could agree with you for sure. For example, in a political context. Terrorism has different categories. In our example, I believe there are two (there could be more).
a. Political - a group that uses terrorist acts to achieve a politcal end
such as statehood, indpendence etc. Examples include IRA, PLO
b. Catastrophic/non-negotiable - a group that has no 'real' political agenda but
rather, uses terrorism to achive its primary objective: their
opponents destruction. Examples include Al-Qaeda, Hamas

I would agree, a political organization could provide the vehicle for an end to occupation. Example: Fatah, as head of the PNA assuming they weilded true power. But given that Hamas is a states catastrophic terrorist group (meaning they actively call for the destruction of Israel), there doesn't seem to be a point of negotiation. In other words, even if Israel ended the occupation, and conceded all territories in dispute, I personally don't believe that Hamas and by extenstion, any other Arab/Muslim group would be satisfied until Israel ceased to exist (it doesn;t necessarily have to be by violent means). Another point, I don't think that the 'people' are for this, but rather, a small extremist minority in control which not only uses violence and intimidation to threaten Israel but its own people as well.

I think the Israeli govt is painted into the corner. NO one can afford to look weak and careless with their national security.

I do believe that Israel certainly has a real concern for security.

I agree settlements were a bad idea and should be dismantled.

I still think the chicken:egg concept is reasonably apt as it illustrates the Israeli-Arab conflict fairly well in general terms. Of course it is no means complete.

Many Israelis would agree with you and I in ending the occupation, but the one hang up is, will there be a power vaccuum? Will the Palestinians be able to guarantee Israel's security and make sure no more terrorist attacks occur? Would they even be willing to?

I think these are very valid questions and issues that should be addressed and are critical to the success in any conflict resolution.

Actually, I also believe that the moderate voice in both Israel and the Palestinian community and the Arab street have been stifled by the extremists on either sides. I think that is very interesting and reflective of things today, here in the West as well.

In my experience, I got the feeling that the Arab middle class was getting a bit antsy and restless, sort of a latent build up before a storm or something. I think the key lays there. When the middle class is no longer complacent and takes action, real change will have to take place. I believe the same to be true of our country. When that happens, host may prove to be a true prophet. So, there are signs that Hamas is running out of time. The people are restless and beginning to hold them accountable EX: the recent massive strike in the West Bank.

RB, on your other comment, would you mind opening a new thread for the question on moderates in the US? Then we could move that part of the discussion over. I think they're all kind of interrelated to a degree. The moderate voice in the US has been shut out. In the present context, it means no one listens to you. I would suspect there are more moderates than we think or it appears. In our media consumed society, there is no room for moderate, only extremes. It's sexier and louder and grabs attention. So the real issues, in my opinion, drop to the wayside (no, not that Wayside) in favor of the 'loudmouths'. It's more interesting to listen to Rush Limbaugh or Al FRanken or Bill O'Reilly or John Stewart. The lines get blurred between news and entertainment. The polarization has forced people to take sides: either with us or against us. No more moderates. But I believe they're out there in huge droves and are poised to make a stand. I think this years elections will be interesting. Will there be a shakeup in Congress? Will this be the year of the moderate, of reason?

Well, that's what I think. I am listening and interested in everyone's views.

Thanks.

Elphaba

I chose to take roachboy's question regarding "moderates" to your topic of a new TFP. Not a surprise at all that you and I share the same views once again.

hiredgun

I hope it wouldn't be a threadjack to add a few of my own pictures. I feel a little silly that it never occurred to me to share some of my Middle East experiences from last year here on TFP.

This is the entrance that was open between Jerusalem and Ramallah.


Here is the spot where you leave Israel proper and enter the West Bank. There's barely any security, just a single full-body turnstile. I took this covertly while standing in line to re-enter Israel... I didn't dare take a picture of that (I was always harassed by security enough as it was), but it was a rather long line and involved thorough searches and some questioning, especially for non-internationals (i.e. Palestinians). As an American you were normally okay, although in my case it didn't erase my dark skin and Arabic-derived name.


Sorry that this one's sideways. This is a slum near Bethlehem.



To address the issue of linkages between occupation practice and terrorism, I think one must remember that Palestinians are being presented by the dominant right-wing apparatus with the destruction of Israel as the only solution to their miserable circumstances. I think it would be asinine to believe that changes on the ground will not result in changes in Palestinian attitudes, whatever the professed goals of Hamas are. Their attitudes during the budget crisis (namely, explicitly endorsing negotiations based on the '67 borders) show that 'pushing the Jews into the sea' is not their first and only policy imperative but rather a far-right slogan, as empty as many other far-right slogans tend to be.

There has been no real willingness to discuss the dismantling of the system of Israeli control that exists in the Territories, and the withdrawal from Gaza, which granted no real sovereignty and left Israel with the ability to open and close the borders at will, is merely a case in point.

jorgelito

Wow, thanks for sharing man. I have a ton I haven't posted yet (didn't want to overwhelm the board, but also give people time to think about things).

Mine were from a couple of weeks ago so they're still "fresh". I never made it to Ramallah, but I will tell you that security is way tighter now I think. Bethlehem wasn;t too bad though, but the atmosphere was still dark.

I disagree that the Palestinians are necessarily portrayed as terrorists. I think that that the extremists and groups like Hamas are portrayed as terrorists. But I do agree, the security in Israel does cast a pall over "Arab-looking" people. At the same time, I interacted with many Arabs and Palestinians (in Israel) that were fine and friendly etc. I had both good and bad interactions in the West bank.

Your point about changing things on the ground is interesting: I see it as a chicken:egg thing. Sort of like a "you go first, no you go first" type of deal. In the previous scenario, I proposed that if Israel were to just pull out, would there be a vaccuum? Would there be any security guarantees? What happens if someone decides to commit a terrorist act? Should Israel just be restrained? That's part of the problem is the lack of a security guarantee and the fact that it only takes one incident to take down the house of cards.

What if Hamas were to recognize Israel and denounce violence? Would that effectively put the ball back in Israel's court? It would be a PR coup on Hamas' part.

What do I think?
I agree with you that the small minority of far right wingers on both sides are a big impedement. BUt I do think that the majority are fed up (on both sides). Heads will roll in Israel, Olmert is on shaky ground and the Defense Ministry will have a shake up. Hamas is losing populariy as well. The people are fed up and losing impatience with Hamas. I think the people (on both sides) want peace already so that they can just get on with their lives.

Something like that.

Oh yeah, please post more: pics, thoughts, opinions. It's great to hear new voices. Thanks for your participation.

hiredgun

I just want to clarify that if 'heads roll' in Israel right now, it will be Netanyahu and the Likud hardliners that will come out on top. If you're suggesting that there is about to be some sort of moderate takeover, I simply and strongly disagree. Kadima was about as centrist as Israeli politics gets right now, which speaks volumes about the shape of Israeli public discourse when it comes to what the government is actually prepared to do in the Territories.

Ch'i

Did either of you see any strong protesting while you were there? It seems from your descriptions that the mood is somewhat mild (relatively speaking).
I have never agreed with the Israelis' ousting of the Palestinians, and agreed even less with their occupation of West Bank. But this occupation seems more like a stalemate at the expense of the Palestinians, than anything else. Did it seem like the Palestinians have given up hope in West Bank, or is it locked down too tight to even think about dissent?

keyshawn

whoa, Kudos to you, Jorgelito !

Going to a place and experiencing it in first-hand, in person, really provides a perspective that just reading about it in the media can't do (I was the same way when I visited Europe). thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

A question in my mind that you've mentioned as well is: what will happen if Israel would just suddenly pull out of gaza strip and west bank ? This question, of course, is assuming that you (not directly you, but anyone reading this) support the withdrawl of Israel.

A question that I have for you is:
Was security very tight for Palestinian citizens ? I've heard that it's difficult for citizens there to do everyday errands and travel out and about because they're harrassed and/or held up (in security checkpoints) by Israeli soldiers.

Also, with the support of Hamas, I think if the economy is improved (doesn't even need to be as well as Israel, but at least decent infrastructure that doesn't exist in the settlements) that support for Hamas would wane (how much, don't know, but they wouldn't be as influential as they are now), because the Palestian citizens wouldn't worry as much or support a group that calls for Israel's destruction (although still be worried of Israel) if their living conditions had better standards.

As Jorgelito said, it's a lot about perspectives.

Catcha back on the flipside,
keyshawn.

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jorgelito

Thanks for your reply. I don't agree that the hardliners will come out on top. I got the sense that the people were pissed about the war. There was a whole protest with the reservists too. I don't know if there is or will be a moderate takeover, but I do think that the people want real change. Generally, they want an end to the occupation (in Lebanon, WB) and an end to terrorist bombings and what-not. The Israelis are pretty sick of it.

There are other signs. Israel wants to resume talks with Abbas and continue with the road map. There are signs within the Palestinians too. It seems like they are fed up with Hamas as well.

I guess we just have to wait and see.

I saw huge protests in Cairo (it made me nervous a bit actually). The Egyptians are quite vocal despite their repressive regime although people were uncomfortable when I asked them what they thought of Mubarak. It took prodding and the closing of doors and looking around first before they were candid.

Where I was, in the West Bank (Bethlehem) was relatively mild compared to the core of say Ramallah or other tense places like Jenin or Hebron. The people were generally nice (except for a few taxi drivers) and "welcoming". The writing on the wall was pretty expressive enough. I got the sense that the economy was pretty bad and people were abit desperate. However, my experience is tiny. Even when I was there I saw or heard about shootings etc in other parts of the West Bank and Gaza is so bad that the State department strongly urges people not to go there. I guess I lucked out.

I agree the stalemate is at the expense of the Palestinians but the ones in Israel are fine. I hung out with a few when I was in Jerusalem. Not all the Palestinians were "ousted". I think they are caught in the middle of a bad situation. Basically, the many are punished for the deeds of a few. I got the sense that they really didn;t care about the politics per se, they just wanted their livelihood back. In other word, economy trumps ideology for average Joe (or Mohammed).

My 2 cents.

Yes, security was extremely tight. I hated that kind of atmosphere. I t was very uncomfortable and "oppressive" feeling. As an American, a non-Arab looking American, I got no slack and no love (I was like, C'mon man, we're allies. I am paying for all this, I should be getting things for free here). I think the Israelis are resigned to it. Everywhere you go there is security, metal detectors, someone waving a wand (like US high schools, ha). I got alot of questions - who are you, what are you doing here, why are you here etc. So just think, if it was that bad for me, it must really suck for Ahmed. But it depends I suppose and I defintiely think it impedes movement. The weird thing was, the German guy going through the checkpoint was treated like a king and I, the American got the proverbial probe.

Yes, security was extremely tight. I hated that kind of atmosphere. I t was very uncomfortable and "oppressive" feeling. As an American, a non-Arab looking American, I got no slack and no love (I was like, C'mon man, we're allies. I am paying for all this, I should be getting things for free here). I think the Israelis are resigned to it. Everywhere you go there is security, metal detectors, someone waving a wand (like US high schools, ha). I got alot of questions - who are you, what are you doing here, why are you here etc. So just think, if it was that bad for me, it must really suck for Ahmed. But it depends I suppose and I defintiely think it impedes movement. The weird thing was, the German guy going through the checkpoint was treated like a king and I, the American got the proverbial probe. I am getting tired, I will write more later or if someone has a specific thing to ask.

hiredgun

It depends whether you mean Palestinians with Israeli citizenship or Palestinians in the territories. Security in Israel is tight for everyone, and yes, Arabs/Muslims/Palestinians are particularly scrutinized, but it's generally not at such a level where it really impedes movement.

What you've heard regarding harassment and major difficulties, the kinds of 'security' measures that actually make life unlivable, applies only to Palestinians living in the Territories. In addition to turning people away, certain checkpoints are routinely or sporadically closed altogether. The most important factor is the shape of the wall, which separates towns and villages that were once economically and socially linked by annexing some to Israel and pushing others into what is supposed to become a new Palestinian state. Even within the Palestinian West Bank, the winding route of the wall causes problems: a lot of car trips that should take 5 minutes actually take 20, and trips that should take half an hour take two and a half... things like that.