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Originally Posted by hiredgun
I just want to clarify that if 'heads roll' in Israel right now, it will be Netanyahu and the Likud hardliners that will come out on top. If you're suggesting that there is about to be some sort of moderate takeover, I simply and strongly disagree. Kadima was about as centrist as Israeli politics gets right now, which speaks volumes about the shape of Israeli public discourse when it comes to what the government is actually prepared to do in the Territories.
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Thanks for your reply. I don't agree that the hardliners will come out on top. I got the sense that the people were pissed about the war. There was a whole protest with the reservists too. I don't know if there is or will be a moderate takeover, but I do think that the people want real change. Generally, they want an end to the occupation (in Lebanon, WB) and an end to terrorist bombings and what-not. The Israelis are pretty sick of it.
There are other signs. Israel wants to resume talks with Abbas and continue with the road map. There are signs within the Palestinians too. It seems like they are fed up with Hamas as well.
I guess we just have to wait and see.
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Originally Posted by Ch'i
Did either of you see any strong protesting while you were there? It seems from your descriptions that the mood is somewhat mild (relatively speaking).
I have never agreed with the Israelis' ousting of the Palestinians, and agreed even less with their occupation of West Bank. But this occupation seems more like a stalemate at the expense of the Palestinians, than anything else. Did it seem like the Palestinians have given up hope in West Bank, or is it locked down too tight to even think about dissent?
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I saw huge protests in Cairo (it made me nervous a bit actually). The Egyptians are quite vocal despite their repressive regime although people were uncomfortable when I asked them what they thought of Mubarak. It took prodding and the closing of doors and looking around first before they were candid.
Where I was, in the West Bank (Bethlehem) was relatively mild compared to the core of say Ramallah or other tense places like Jenin or Hebron. The people were generally nice (except for a few taxi drivers) and "welcoming". The writing on the wall was pretty expressive enough. I got the sense that the economy was pretty bad and people were abit desperate. However, my experience is tiny. Even when I was there I saw or heard about shootings etc in other parts of the West Bank and Gaza is so bad that the State department strongly urges people not to go there. I guess I lucked out.
I agree the stalemate is at the expense of the Palestinians but the ones in Israel are fine. I hung out with a few when I was in Jerusalem. Not all the Palestinians were "ousted". I think they are caught in the middle of a bad situation. Basically, the many are punished for the deeds of a few. I got the sense that they really didn;t care about the politics per se, they just wanted their livelihood back. In other word, economy trumps ideology for average Joe (or Mohammed).
My 2 cents.
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Originally Posted by keyshawn
whoa, Kudos to you, Jorgelito !
Going to a place and experiencing it in first-hand, in person, really provides a perspective that just reading about it in the media can't do (I was the same way when I visited Europe). thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
A question in my mind that you've mentioned as well is: what will happen if Israel would just suddenly pull out of gaza strip and west bank ? This question, of course, is assuming that you (not directly you, but anyone reading this) support the withdrawl of Israel.
I'm not as informed as I should be about the politics and history around this, but
A question that I have for you is:
Was security very tight for Palestinian citizens ? I've heard that it's difficult for citizens there to do everyday errands and travel out and about because they're harrassed and/or held up (in security checkpoints) by Israeli soldiers.
Also, with the support of Hamas, I think if the economy is improved (doesn't even need to be as well as Israel, but at least decent infrastructure that doesn't exist in the settlements) that support for Hamas would wane (how much, don't know, but they wouldn't be as influential as they are now), because the Palestian citizens wouldn't worry as much or support a group that calls for Israel's destruction (although still be worried of Israel) if their living conditions had better standards.
As Jorgelito said, it's a lot about perspectives.
Catcha back on the flipside,
keyshawn.
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Yes, security was extremely tight. I hated that kind of atmosphere. I t was very uncomfortable and "oppressive" feeling. As an American, a non-Arab looking American, I got no slack and no love (I was like, C'mon man, we're allies. I am paying for all this, I should be getting things for free here). I think the Israelis are resigned to it. Everywhere you go there is security, metal detectors, someone waving a wand (like US high schools, ha). I got alot of questions - who are you, what are you doing here, why are you here etc. So just think, if it was that bad for me, it must really suck for Ahmed. But it depends I suppose and I defintiely think it impedes movement. The weird thing was, the German guy going through the checkpoint was treated like a king and I, the American got the proverbial probe.
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Originally Posted by keyshawn
whoa, Kudos to you, Jorgelito !
Going to a place and experiencing it in first-hand, in person, really provides a perspective that just reading about it in the media can't do (I was the same way when I visited Europe). thanks for sharing your experiences with us.
A question in my mind that you've mentioned as well is: what will happen if Israel would just suddenly pull out of gaza strip and west bank ? This question, of course, is assuming that you (not directly you, but anyone reading this) support the withdrawl of Israel.
I'm not as informed as I should be about the politics and history around this, but
A question that I have for you is:
Was security very tight for Palestinian citizens ? I've heard that it's difficult for citizens there to do everyday errands and travel out and about because they're harrassed and/or held up (in security checkpoints) by Israeli soldiers.
Also, with the support of Hamas, I think if the economy is improved (doesn't even need to be as well as Israel, but at least decent infrastructure that doesn't exist in the settlements) that support for Hamas would wane (how much, don't know, but they wouldn't be as influential as they are now), because the Palestian citizens wouldn't worry as much or support a group that calls for Israel's destruction (although still be worried of Israel) if their living conditions had better standards.
As Jorgelito said, it's a lot about perspectives.
Catcha back on the flipside,
keyshawn.
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Yes, security was extremely tight. I hated that kind of atmosphere. I t was very uncomfortable and "oppressive" feeling. As an American, a non-Arab looking American, I got no slack and no love (I was like, C'mon man, we're allies. I am paying for all this, I should be getting things for free here). I think the Israelis are resigned to it. Everywhere you go there is security, metal detectors, someone waving a wand (like US high schools, ha). I got alot of questions - who are you, what are you doing here, why are you here etc. So just think, if it was that bad for me, it must really suck for Ahmed. But it depends I suppose and I defintiely think it impedes movement. The weird thing was, the German guy going through the checkpoint was treated like a king and I, the American got the proverbial probe. I am getting tired, I will write more later or if someone has a specific thing to ask.