Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Bringing Moderation Back

jorgelito · 09-03-2006, 06:14 PM

Ok RB, I'm game. Let's explore the alternatives together.

1. If Israel ends the occupation can we presume there would be an end to the terrorist activity? There is one circumstance that I think I could agree with you for sure. For example, in a political context. Terrorism has different categories. In our example, I believe there are two (there could be more).
a. Political - a group that uses terrorist acts to achieve a politcal end
such as statehood, indpendence etc. Examples include IRA, PLO
b. Catastrophic/non-negotiable - a group that has no 'real' political agenda but
rather, uses terrorism to achive its primary objective: their
opponents destruction. Examples include Al-Qaeda, Hamas

I would agree, a political organization could provide the vehicle for an end to occupation. Example: Fatah, as head of the PNA assuming they weilded true power. But given that Hamas is a states catastrophic terrorist group (meaning they actively call for the destruction of Israel), there doesn't seem to be a point of negotiation. In other words, even if Israel ended the occupation, and conceded all territories in dispute, I personally don't believe that Hamas and by extenstion, any other Arab/Muslim group would be satisfied until Israel ceased to exist (it doesn;t necessarily have to be by violent means). Another point, I don't think that the 'people' are for this, but rather, a small extremist minority in control which not only uses violence and intimidation to threaten Israel but its own people as well.

I think the Israeli govt is painted into the corner. NO one can afford to look weak and careless with their national security.

I do believe that Israel certainly has a real concern for security.

I agree settlements were a bad idea and should be dismantled.

I still think the chicken:egg concept is reasonably apt as it illustrates the Israeli-Arab conflict fairly well in general terms. Of course it is no means complete.

Many Israelis would agree with you and I in ending the occupation, but the one hang up is, will there be a power vaccuum? Will the Palestinians be able to guarantee Israel's security and make sure no more terrorist attacks occur? Would they even be willing to?

I think these are very valid questions and issues that should be addressed and are critical to the success in any conflict resolution.

Actually, I also believe that the moderate voice in both Israel and the Palestinian community and the Arab street have been stifled by the extremists on either sides. I think that is very interesting and reflective of things today, here in the West as well.

In my experience, I got the feeling that the Arab middle class was getting a bit antsy and restless, sort of a latent build up before a storm or something. I think the key lays there. When the middle class is no longer complacent and takes action, real change will have to take place. I believe the same to be true of our country. When that happens, host may prove to be a true prophet. So, there are signs that Hamas is running out of time. The people are restless and beginning to hold them accountable EX: the recent massive strike in the West Bank.

RB, on your other comment, would you mind opening a new thread for the question on moderates in the US? Then we could move that part of the discussion over. I think they're all kind of interrelated to a degree. The moderate voice in the US has been shut out. In the present context, it means no one listens to you. I would suspect there are more moderates than we think or it appears. In our media consumed society, there is no room for moderate, only extremes. It's sexier and louder and grabs attention. So the real issues, in my opinion, drop to the wayside (no, not that Wayside) in favor of the 'loudmouths'. It's more interesting to listen to Rush Limbaugh or Al FRanken or Bill O'Reilly or John Stewart. The lines get blurred between news and entertainment. The polarization has forced people to take sides: either with us or against us. No more moderates. But I believe they're out there in huge droves and are poised to make a stand. I think this years elections will be interesting. Will there be a shakeup in Congress? Will this be the year of the moderate, of reason?

Well, that's what I think. I am listening and interested in everyone's views.

Thanks.

09-03-2006, 06:14 PM	#12 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Ok RB, I'm game. Let's explore the alternatives together. 1. If Israel ends the occupation can we presume there would be an end to the terrorist activity? There is one circumstance that I think I could agree with you for sure. For example, in a political context. Terrorism has different categories. In our example, I believe there are two (there could be more). a. Political - a group that uses terrorist acts to achieve a politcal end such as statehood, indpendence etc. Examples include IRA, PLO b. Catastrophic/non-negotiable - a group that has no 'real' political agenda but rather, uses terrorism to achive its primary objective: their opponents destruction. Examples include Al-Qaeda, Hamas I would agree, a political organization could provide the vehicle for an end to occupation. Example: Fatah, as head of the PNA assuming they weilded true power. But given that Hamas is a states catastrophic terrorist group (meaning they actively call for the destruction of Israel), there doesn't seem to be a point of negotiation. In other words, even if Israel ended the occupation, and conceded all territories in dispute, I personally don't believe that Hamas and by extenstion, any other Arab/Muslim group would be satisfied until Israel ceased to exist (it doesn;t necessarily have to be by violent means). Another point, I don't think that the 'people' are for this, but rather, a small extremist minority in control which not only uses violence and intimidation to threaten Israel but its own people as well. I think the Israeli govt is painted into the corner. NO one can afford to look weak and careless with their national security. I do believe that Israel certainly has a real concern for security. I agree settlements were a bad idea and should be dismantled. I still think the chicken:egg concept is reasonably apt as it illustrates the Israeli-Arab conflict fairly well in general terms. Of course it is no means complete. Many Israelis would agree with you and I in ending the occupation, but the one hang up is, will there be a power vaccuum? Will the Palestinians be able to guarantee Israel's security and make sure no more terrorist attacks occur? Would they even be willing to? I think these are very valid questions and issues that should be addressed and are critical to the success in any conflict resolution. Actually, I also believe that the moderate voice in both Israel and the Palestinian community and the Arab street have been stifled by the extremists on either sides. I think that is very interesting and reflective of things today, here in the West as well. In my experience, I got the feeling that the Arab middle class was getting a bit antsy and restless, sort of a latent build up before a storm or something. I think the key lays there. When the middle class is no longer complacent and takes action, real change will have to take place. I believe the same to be true of our country. When that happens, host may prove to be a true prophet. So, there are signs that Hamas is running out of time. The people are restless and beginning to hold them accountable EX: the recent massive strike in the West Bank. RB, on your other comment, would you mind opening a new thread for the question on moderates in the US? Then we could move that part of the discussion over. I think they're all kind of interrelated to a degree. The moderate voice in the US has been shut out. In the present context, it means no one listens to you. I would suspect there are more moderates than we think or it appears. In our media consumed society, there is no room for moderate, only extremes. It's sexier and louder and grabs attention. So the real issues, in my opinion, drop to the wayside (no, not that Wayside) in favor of the 'loudmouths'. It's more interesting to listen to Rush Limbaugh or Al FRanken or Bill O'Reilly or John Stewart. The lines get blurred between news and entertainment. The polarization has forced people to take sides: either with us or against us. No more moderates. But I believe they're out there in huge droves and are poised to make a stand. I think this years elections will be interesting. Will there be a shakeup in Congress? Will this be the year of the moderate, of reason? Well, that's what I think. I am listening and interested in everyone's views. Thanks.