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#41 (permalink) | ||
Pissing in the cornflakes
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http://www.rcfp.org/news/2005/0613-con-report.html http://www.gannett.com/go/newswatch/...r/nw1124-3.htm http://www.asiamedia.ucla.edu/articl...parentid=40976 etc....etc....etc.... Now we can add the LA Times to the list, though you can hear the disapointment in the writers prose. Quote:
I can hear the disapointment in that last sentance.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#42 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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last time.
i remain totally unclear about what you imagine you are doing via the repetition of this cherrypicked information from "hubris" across the hall of mirrors that is the press--which you yourself have criticized in other threads, ustwo. it seems to me that you in fact have no problem with the hall of mirrors at all--only with information passing into it that you do not like, that runs against your political predispositions. there are--there remain--basic questions about the logic of the interpretation you swallow without the slightest hesitation because you imagine some type of vindication follows from it. these questions have been posed to you over and over in this thread and in typical ustwo fashion you cannot respond. why dont you scroll back and answer them rather than continue with this tedious exercise in repetition repetition.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#43 (permalink) | ||||
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roachboy, you and I are at a disadvantage, because we cannot put ourselves into the shoes of folks who can digest and then embrace as their own opinion, and then post about it on these threads, a fabrication that is intended to totally replace, because it cannot counter, what has been reported in the news, concerning the Plame CIA leak investigation, and in statements of the special counsel, Fitzgerald himself. The folks in these "special shoes" (or hats ??) somehow find solace in this thread's OP, and in the page on this link: http://www.gop.com/News/Read.aspx?ID=6529 Just as the contrast between the gloating over, as you put it, "hall and mirrors" BS, "spun up" <b>on the page in the link above</b>, by the very principles who produced this rival to the farcical WaPo editorial in this thread's OP, is obvious when compared to the following examination of the editorial that is this thread's OP: <b>From the WaPo editorial that Ustwo anchored this thread's OP on:</b> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...083101460.html <i>It follows that one of the most sensational charges leveled against the Bush White House -- <b>that it orchestrated the leak of Ms. Plame's identity to ruin her career and thus punish Mr. Wilson -- is untrue.</b> The partisan clamor that followed the raising of that allegation by Mr. Wilson in the summer of 2003 led to the appointment of a special prosecutor, a costly and prolonged investigation, and the indictment of Vice President Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, on charges of perjury. All of that might have been avoided had Mr. Armitage's identity been known three years ago.</i> <b>My rebuttal to the core claim [<i>"that it orchestrated the leak of Ms. Plame's identity to ruin her career and thus punish Mr. Wilson -- is untrue"</i>] in the WaPo editorial:</b> Quote:
<i>That's not to say that Mr. Libby and other White House officials are blameless. As prosecutor Patrick J. Fitzgerald has reported, when Mr. Wilson charged that intelligence about Iraq had been twisted to make a case for war, Mr. Libby and Mr. Cheney reacted by inquiring about Ms. Plame's role in recommending Mr. Wilson for a CIA-sponsored trip to Niger, where he investigated reports that Iraq had sought to purchase uranium. Mr. Libby then allegedly disclosed Ms. Plame's identity to journalists and lied to a grand jury when he said he had learned of her identity from one of those reporters. Mr. Libby and his boss, Mr. Cheney, were trying to discredit Mr. Wilson; if Mr. Fitzgerald's account is correct, they were careless about handling information that was classified.</i> <b>Here is how the WaPo's own April 9, news reporting described the above events....see how that description contrasts to the "editorial license", taken by the WaPo editorialist, and embraced by Ustwo, Marv, the RNC, et al:</b> Quote:
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<i>"It follows that one of the most sensational charges leveled against the Bush White House -- <b>that it orchestrated the leak of Ms. Plame's identity to ruin her career and thus punish Mr. Wilson -- <b>is untrue</b>"</i> |
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#45 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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The angle of course will be that Cheney ordered Libby to release the information about Plame, which still hits the 'why bother' wall. If your goal is to discredit "Wilson's" report, having the general public know his wife was in the CIA does nothing to help your cause.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#46 (permalink) | ||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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"...fool me once, shame on ... shame on you. It fool me. We can't get fooled again." Quote:
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#47 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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#48 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Its unfortunate that you and others seem to want to limit the discussion to its most narrow focus...the outing of Plame....and not acknowledge the broader, much more serious issue that the case unveiled. The (alleged) actions as outlined in the indictment of Libby that this administration manipulated intelligence data, particularly a highly classified NIE, for political purposes. You mention "the problem was the spin." Is there really a better spin machine in the current political envrionment, particularly on any issue that relates to Iraq, than the White House? I am now supposed to feel like someone who would have been a Nazi sypathizer (Rumsfeld) or who would have pulled northern troops out of the Civil War and left slavery remain (Condi) if I oppose the Bush Iraq war policy. Now that is spin ![]()
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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#49 (permalink) | |||||
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This thread was anchored, in it's OP, by a WaPo editorial that was "justified" by excerpts of a soon to be released book, <a href="http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0307346811/sr=8-1/qid=1156557686/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8"> Hubris: The Inside Story of Spin, Scandal, and the Selling of the Iraq War</a>, by David Corn and Newsweek's Michael Isikoff
I've started a new thread, titled as it is in David Corn's most recent excerpt from his above titled book, and I hope that those who embraced the conclusions in the WaPo editorial in this thread's OP, will react to David Corn's and Michael Isikoff's newest revelations, with similar enthusiasm: <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=108229">What Valerie Plame Really Did at the CIA</a> The content in the first quote box below was written by John Dean, two years before Patrick Fitzgerald's indictment of Scooter Libby was announced. Howard Fineman's Newsweek report that follows, certainly supports the late 2005 and early 2006 reporting of John Dickerson, displayed in depth at the thread I post about, above. The news reporting of Fineman and Dickerson, coupled with the language in what should have been a brief indictment of Libby for perjury and obstruction, but instead, delved into description and citation of laws which Libby was not indicted for allegedley breaking.....coupled with the curious length of time that Fitzgerald's investigation is taking, IMO, provides serious consideration of both of John Dean's columns, written two full years, apart: Quote:
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#50 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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More of the left wing press dodging the Plame affair now...
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#51 (permalink) |
This vexes me. I am terribly vexed.
Location: Grantville, Pa
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Couple things your not remembering here.
Novak had TWO sources. The first has now been revealed as Armitage. The second, Novak has already revealed, long ago, as Rove. He was the confirming source for Novak. Without corroboration, Rove doesn't go through with it. Rove was Cooper's primary source in this. Cooper says that Rove came to him with this on a date before the Novak column. So it just became a matter of Armitage's man, Novak being the Prince of Darkness and willing to run the story. This changes nothing for me. Just add Armitage to the list of those guilty of Treason. |
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#52 (permalink) | ||||||
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The polarized atmosphere here at TFP politics, and in political opinion in the larger "3D" arena across the US, may come down to this: The link that Ustwo omitted is: http://newsbusters.org/node/7482 Quote:
<b> Masthead Executive Editor Matthew Sheffield </b> Matthew Sheffield <b>is employed by MRC, founded and controlled by L. Brent Bozell III</b> The evidence is that we are as polarized as we are, because some folks who post here, will cite references like: (Even Dick Cheney cited a factcheck.org reference to support a point that he made in the 2004 televised VP debate....) Quote:
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...2&postcount=45 roachboy followed with some well founded and well received observations, Coincidentally, Ch'i revived that thread by posting there several hours ago: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...22#post1886622 We tried Brent Bozell's "vision", highlighted in bold letters, in the fall 2002 through spring 2003 period in the US. Mr. Bush got his Iraq invasion and occupation, with the help of an almost universally supportive, compliant, and unquestioning media. It didn't "work". It wasn't good for this country. Neither is bashing special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, Valerie Plame, and Joe Wilson. Just as in the run up to war in Iraq....the "facts" that would justify bashing any of the above, do not match the policy of doing so. If you read the page at the link at factcheck.org, contradicting opinions of Ustwo and Matthew Sheffield, offer a stark contrast, and a defining moment in America. |
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#53 (permalink) | |
Artist of Life
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#54 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Tobacco Road
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Why no calls from the left to indict Armitage? After all, the left was concerned about this case because of national security implications. Or was that just political posturing?
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#55 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#56 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Tobacco Road
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#58 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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I mean come on, just suck it up and say it, the Plame 'affair' was very minor, there were no national security concerns, the left wasn't worried about anything beyond what they thought was the chance to nail Rove. If you can't beat him, discredit him. Now that it seems Rove is not to blame, its suddenly not such a big deal. This just requires a bit of honesty on the lefts part... You thought you had Rove but you didn't. ![]()
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#59 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Coming along after the fact and saying, "Oh, see, we told you, it wasn't any big deal," just doesn't do justice to the smoking crater that the thing left. |
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#60 (permalink) | ||||
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Even after I posted the fact that the propagandist, Brent Bozell's assistant propagandandist, Matthew Sheffiled, who you quoted in post #50, also said: Quote:
This isn't some partisan game....and it is no "small thing", even if it was not a "in a time of war", declared ironically, by our terrorist, traitorous leaders, themselves. Too harsh a description.....in light of Fitzgerald's filings to the court, and Libby's indcitment...unless Fitzgerald is utterly mistaken, or lying, WTF else would describe this official misconduct, coverup, and conspiracy? Given that special counsel Fitzgerald has denied, in filings to a US Criminal Court Judge, the specifics of your entire argument, and the arguments of "fringe cases" like the one I just posted by Bozell's "Matthews", about Joe Wilson, and that actually....it was an effort to discredit Wilson that led to the fictitious white house "NEPOTISM OP", and the treasonous "outing" of Wilson's wife....during wartime....by the very officials who claim to terrorize....err... ......protect <b>us</b> from terror. (Forgive me...between what they have said done, and your perpetuation of their propagandist defense of their treason....it is difficult to remember/discern if you and they are terrorizing us or protecting us. If, as you and "Matthews" claim...that "Wilson who is to blame for much of this", why is Special Counsel Fitzgerald, the Bush appointee as US Atty....the Bush DOJ appointee as Special Counsel, with all of the independent authority of the Attorney General of the US, with all the authority of the Atty General to investigate, subpoena, and prosecute on his own, without the restrictions imposed on special prosecutor, Kenneth Starr, ten years ago....Fitzgerald the well respected prosecutor of the 1993 WTC bombers.....telling the Court the exact opposite about Wilson, and about the OVP effort to harrass him and his wife? If the subject of this thread were the 9/11 attacks, and whether the US government was involved, wouldn't the flimsy, fringe crap that you have presented on this thread, to bolster your claims against Wilson, and foi Rove, relegate this thread to "Paranoia"? Doesn't it work both ways, when one side fails this obviously, in the face of reason and all of the actual evidence? Sheesh! Enough already. There is too much documentation to counter Bozell''s and Cheney's BS, on this one. Time to drop it. If "Scooter" was innocent, why did he work so hard to push trail out until safely after the midterm, Novemebr elections? Wouldn't an innocent man, wabt to be cleared, sooner, rather than later? Quote:
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#61 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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He didn't DO anything, it just gave a chance for the left to slander the man. The smoking crater was due to the lies of the left, its not truth that matters its perception of the truth, and now the left doesn't seem to keen on changing that perception to what the truth really is.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#62 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Here's the real thing about all of this. The Bush Administration is extremely adept at turning leaked scandals into scandals ABOUT the leak. In this case, it turned back on them, but they have still succeeded in keeping the attention OFF the yellowcake lie, which is what this whole thing was really about. Remember that? The whole going to war with a justification that was known to be bogus? 60,000 human beings dead because of a lie? That's what this is really about. Forget who outed whom and why they did it. I admit, while that story made political hay, I was happy to graze on it, but now that it's what it is, let's remember what the real scandal is, please. |
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#63 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Its also more proof that the press is in fact biased to the left, its not the nobodies who post here that made this a big stink, but the press. Now that the story doesn't hurt Bush, its suddenly to complicated. Its actually revoltingly simple, but thats besides the point. I'm not expecting honesty from the left, I've never expected something like that, I'm just enjoying the moment.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#64 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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#65 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Should Armitage be indicted? II will leave that to Fitizgerald. The investigation is still open. As to the rest of the "affair," I will wait to find out what the truth really is when Libby goes to trial.....unless Bush pardons him (after the election and before the Jan 07 trial) in order to "protect national security".
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-20-2006 at 02:40 PM.. |
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#66 (permalink) |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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The OP requires that we take Armitage's word as gospel, which is extremely difficult to do when Novak disputes his "aw shucks" story. It takes very little imagination to contemplate the role of Armitage then and now to consider other possibilities more consistent with the DOJ investigation as it was unfolding.
My guess is that Armitage was the Ace card waiting to be played if Rove was about to be indicted. That would be a reasonable assumption given the circus environment involving Rove up to the magically disappearing indictment. I didn't bother with this thread until now because of the obvious problems with the OP and the partisan nature of it. I only post now to give an example as to why the jury may still be out on the whole Plame/Wilson investigation. I am not convinced of the veracity of Novak, but only a fool would buy what Armitage now has to sell without a single doubt. |
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#68 (permalink) | ||||||||
Banned
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Do we believe the opinions that come from a WaPo editorial and Bozell's newsbusters.org "executive editor", Matthew Sheffield, the known "influences" of Ustwo's opinion,
or....do we believe the findings of an independent criminal investigation....only independent when it was transferred by the former #2 at Ashcroft's DOJ, James Comey, after a conflict of interest committed by Ashcroft, himself, in his demand to be briefed on the details of the investigation of white house officials? Unlike what we experienced during the "leak prone", 6 year investigation of the Clinton white house by special prosecutor, Kenneth Starr, James Comey's choice for special counsel, US Atty. Patrick Fitzgerald, to investigate the "Plame CIA Leak" and prosecute, if appropriate, has spoken to the press, only once, when the indictment of the VP of the US, COS, Irwin Scooter Libby was handed down. This, from what I have learned in my research, is an accurate report of "what happened": Quote:
Fitzgerald tells the court that, Quote:
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Patrick Fitzgerald is the Bush administration's "worst nightmare": Quote:
Ustwo will not discuss Fitzgerald's findings, and he offers no evidence to suggest that Fitzgerald has conducted a flawed, or biased investigation, or that Fitzgerald himself has a conflict of interest that would impact the investigation. There can only be two choices left to us, either Fitzgerald is lying, and Plame was not a CIA "NOC" employee, and therefore the investigation is wholly without merit and should be dropped, with only the matter of Libby's perjury and obstruction....unlawful behavior by Libby, a lawyer himself, for unknown and irrelevant reasons.....<b>or, it is as Fitzgerald described to the court, Joe Wilson exposed a falsehood of the Bush administration's justification for the invasion of Iraq, and the administration conspired to commit, and did commit, an "Op" that included a co-ordinated effort to persuade reporters, around the time of Bush's early July, 2003 "trip to Africa", to "ask who sent Wilson to Niger", so that they could answer reporters with the line that "Wilson's CIA wife sent him on a "junket" to Niger.</b> If Ustwo, et al, and the entire republican noise apparatus are correct, Fitzgerald, prominent prosecutor of the 1993 WTC bombers, has become a rogue prosecutor, "out to get the white house" by pursuing a "nothing" investigation of a "non-classified" CIA employee's "outing", or....the officials of the Bush administration, in addition to knowingly broadcasting reasons for invading Iraq that were phony or misleading, lashed back at a former US Ambassador who revealed one component of this campaign of falsehoods, by "outing" his CIA NOC wife, and discrediting him and his trip to Niger, by claiming in every venue...to reporters, on talks shows, on the GOP noise machine, and even via an republican senators only, "addendum" to the 2004 "Phase I" Senate Select Intelligence Committee report. Reporters testified that Karl Rove took part in that "Op", and Rove testified at least five times, himself, before Fitzgerald's grand jury. I don't think Fitzgerald is lying.....why would he? That leaves me agreeing with Fitzgerald....that the administration outed a CIA NOC as political payback, and that from the POTUS, on down to numerous administration staffers, inclduing Ari Fleischer, Cheney, Rove, Libby, and three republican members of the Senate Select Committee, it became more important to discredit Wilson via his wife "sending him on a junket", becasue he exposed a lie that helped justify an illegal invasion and occupation, than it was to expose and condemn the official and deliberate outing of a CIA employee, in wartime, by the principles of the Executive Branch, to make an example out of the Wilson's to send a message to others in government that a similar fate awaited anyone else who attempted to expose the conspirarcy to concoct a "rationale"....for war....even if it included a treaonous act and a refusal to cooperate with an FBI investigation, of that act. There is nothing partisan to see here. Either Fitzgerald has committed crimes, or Mr. Cheney and Bush's legacy are at stake, because they either committed or abbetted treason, in wartime. If you believe what Patrick Fitzgerald has told the court, then what else could this now be about? Last edited by host; 09-20-2006 at 11:53 PM.. |
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#69 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
Location: Tobacco Road
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#70 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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I love the way the right goes wide-eyed innocent when they're the target of political activity--especially against their single biggest political "dirty-fighter". Rove has run dozens of nasty, nasty campaigns. He's likely the guy who got Diebold to hand over the elections in 2000 and 2004. He's alledged to be behind most of the massive voting irregularities in Ohio and Florida in 2004. Just because he wasn't the man behind the curtain on this one doesn't suddenly turn him clean. He's the architect of the modern smear campaign. Pull out the word "slander" if you want: pot, kettle, black. But nobody's dealing with what's actually going on, so I'll keep saying it. THE WHOLE GOD DAMN THING IS A SMOKESCREEN. We're dealing with this "who leaked what when and why" bullshit because the administration doesn't want us dealing with what actually happened. What actually happened was, the administration claimed that Iraq had purchased materials for nuclear weapons, when no such thing ever took place, and their intel was telling them that no such thing ever took place. They used that lie as part of their enormous tapestry of fabrication to justify a war that has cost billions of dollars and tens of thousands of lives. WHY AREN'T WE TALKING ABOUT THE REAL SCANDAL HERE??? I'd bet money that the Rove parts of this post get replied to and the WHAT THE HELL ARE WE DOING NOT TALKING ABOUT THE REAL SCANDAL parts of this post get roundly ignored by our local conservatives. C'mon, SOMEBODY prove me wrong. |
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#71 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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if you repeat and repeat and repeat the same nonsense the same nonsense the same nonsense often often often, the hope is that people will get confused and think that the real scandals have been dealt with.
it works for the resident far right folk here: they think that the way they frame this is the way things are and so are quite sure because their talking heads on radio and television are quite sure that this particular bushscandal is over. why? because the right says it is. after all, cowboy george continues giving speeches in which 9/11 and iraq are mentioned right next to each other and some apparently still manage to beleive on that basis that iraq had something to do with 9/11/2001, that it is an extension of the bushwar on "terrorr" blah blah blah. perhaps that is why none of the resident far right folk can explain why their narrative of scandal-address in this case makes any sense. that part is not prominent amongst the punditocracy's claims that this is over. so they haven't been told why. it just is.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#72 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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The yellow cake was NOT why we went to war, you know it, it was an after thought to add one line in speech. Do you honestly think there would have been no Iraq war if there was no yellow cake report? Of course you don't, you are not stupid so quit pretending to take a high road in what was nothing more than left wing mudslinging.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#73 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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You conveniently address only the periphery of the issue here. You thereby make it clear that the war-justification lies are a complete losing hand for you. There's no defending that, evidently. And that's the very point that I fondly hope that impeachment proceedings will revolve around. I like how you're up in arms about "lying about Rove", while "lying to America and causing the deaths of 60,000 human beings" isn't on your radar. |
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#74 (permalink) | ||
Rail Baron
Location: Tallyfla
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http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html Quote:
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"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser |
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#75 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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#76 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Why can I say this with confidence? Well lets think of it this way. If Bush (and Blair) lied about there being WMD evidence, we would have found WMD's in Iraq. Think about it, as its obvious to why this would be true.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#77 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Ustwo...Of course there is a presumption of innocence until proven otherwise, something you rarely practice when it comes to your incendiary attacks on the left.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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#78 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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#79 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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A fed court just ruled today that Libby should have greater access to classified information for his defense than the government prosecutors would like:
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The tactic of graymail is new to me, but its hard to tell if he really wants/needs the classified info for his defense or perhaps is just using it as added incentive to get Bush to pardon him in order to keep the classified info out of the public eye.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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#80 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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