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#1 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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The Plame affair.......
I think many of you know where this would be going, but let me post a bit from the Washington Post of all places.....
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So its time to say you are sorry for blaming Mr. Rove, Bush, Cheney, and the real killers in the WTC. You, my friends, were duped.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#3 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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It's still possible to turn this into a conspiracy. The fact that the actual leak was a redshirt who can be thrown to the wolves only underscores the canniness of the political manouver. I don't know...
Even if this gets Rove, Bush, and Cheney off the hook, it doesn't recover the PR points lost by the administration through this whole mess. The administration is hopelessly off the approval rails. Even if it the news today was that Wilson was single, the damage to the administration is done. Last edited by ratbastid; 09-01-2006 at 03:13 PM.. |
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#6 (permalink) | ||
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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well, since we are referring--without necessarily knowing it of course, to a book that has yet to be released--and since that book is by david corn and michael issikof--and since we are cycling through editorials--i figured that posting a bit from david corn's website about the book as a whole--hubris--would be interesting in this context.
here is a version of the armitage information from david corn's website: Quote:
and another bit: Quote:
so i figure it is best to wait to read the actual book rather than rely on editorials that select certain factoids from the book, present a very odd case based on them (how exactly did the plame business get diverted onto a question of explicit motive anyway?). maybe you should consider actually reading the book too, ustwo, before you begin gloating over what appears--at the best, even in the truncated format of the editorial you bit--to be something of a pyrrhic victory for the right--if it even is that.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#8 (permalink) | |||||||||||
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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By my count, the only proven liar in this inconsequential, overblown scandal is Wilson. It's also now plain to see that Seaver, Stevo, and Powerclown based their opinions on facts and evidence, instead of the emotions so prominently displayed elsewhere. And now, after reading an incredible number of wildly disjointed and tangential source articles by a member who shall remain nameless, I feel the need for a shower. After which, I'm sure, I will read that my quoting the posts of other members constitutes "flaming." ![]() Oh yeah, truthout.org needs to find another domain name.
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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#9 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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I regret that some of you boys have gotten into a phenomena in the "news bidnuss" that you might not fully grasp. That's okay....I don't mind guiding you through it, because your posts indicate that you might be in "over your head".
In fairness, I don't expect you to "get it" in just one post with just a limited number of examples, like I display for you below, in this post. I got many more, all specific to recent Washington Post editorials, vs. what staff news reporters....employed by the same paper, relate to us in other pages at the washingtonpost.com website...... Briefly, here's how it works, and here's why us liber-ull adults, navigate through it. What is written in the Washington Post editorials, is predominately conservative bull shit that would be much more at home in the news pages of say....the Washington Times. Much of what is spewed from the WaPo editorial "side", as our examples below, show, is directly contradicted in that paper's news reporting.....almost as if the editorial writer does not even read the rest of the newspaper. Nothing in the editorial in this thread's OP, changes the findings of fact of special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald, with regard to his disclosure of his findings in the investigation of the "Plame leak". What is pleasant, however, is that you boys have now become partial to a small part of what appears in the Washington Post....a very small....and inconsequential portion. If you like, just ask one of us regular readers to guide you further, regarding what is reported in the "open loop", adult news sections of the WaPo, or if you prefer, just come by and visit the "closed loop" editorial page.....just don't mistake the editorials for reality based news reporting....because they aren't! Quote:
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#10 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Ustwo...I think you are missing the bigger issue. Its not who outed Plame; its just another example of how this administration uses or abuses intellligence information to selectively represent or misrepresent the facts to further support a political agenda.
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This should be an outrage to conservatives and liberals and anyone who values the truth.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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#12 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Pat Roberts, the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, has been stonewallilng for nearly two years the phase II investigation into wherther the White House manipulated pre-war intelligence to justify the invasion of Iraq.
He delayed it again until AFTER the November elections. Will we ever know the truth? From April of this year: Quote:
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-02-2006 at 06:49 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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#13 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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doesn't look llike the right has much of anything to gloat about, does it?
unless you can find a way to take pride in shabby reasoning and cavalier treatment of evidence. to buy this shabby thinking and cavalier treatment of facts, you would also have to buy conservativeland's attempts to reduce the problems around the plame affair to a question of consistent motive such that every last actor involved would have to have explicitly said I AM DOING THIS TO FUCK OVER A CRITIC OF THE WAR IN IRAQ or there is no problem care to defend this one, ustwo?
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#15 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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![]() The important thing here for the left will be to keep trying to assault the character of the members of this administration, reguardless of proof. I mean remember Cheney was CEO of Haliburton! Oh and Rekna is Newsweek mainstream enough for you? http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14533384/site/newsweek/ How about CNN? http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/...nn_allpolitics The left wing Washington Post? http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...082801278.html Oh and Yahoo.news gives this Plame considering suing Armitage http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060822/..._leak_woodward Case closed, but it never really was open. Just another kangaroo court of the left wing political spin machine.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#16 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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ok so in one thread you complain about the hall of mirrors that is information circulation within the mainstream media when it runs counter to your political agenda and in another you embrace exactly the same problem because you imagine that it benefits your boy bush.
nice. then in this one, you ignore a legion of problems with the way in which the factoids in the washington post edito were selected and presented. you ignore the more extended version of the same information presented by one of the authors of the book that the wapo edito writer references (indirectly of course) and the--to say the least--complication of the edito and your interpretation of the information that you rely on for your fatuous conclusions. so if i understand the procedure you apply to information it goes like this: 1. factoids, no matter how arbitrary, no matter how indefensable, are cool with you if they fit with your political predispositions 2. and if they dont, sweeping, shabby ill-considered claims about some kind of media conspiracy are just hunky dory. 3. never acknowledge critiques until they reach a critical mass that forces you to abandon a thread. 4. conflate this kind of idiocy with rational discourse. excellent work.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#17 (permalink) | |
Deja Moo
Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA
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#18 (permalink) | ||
Banned
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Something for the folks here who dismiss treason as a tool to be used for political revenge, to consider:
No democrat in congress has had the power to issue a subpoena to compell the testimony of any witness, since Jan., 2003. we will discover if that restriction is going to be reversed, less than nine weeks from now. Now that this thread's author and his OP clearly endorse what appears in the Washington Post as "gospel", the following october, 2003 reporting, takes on a new demension. It also destroys the "no crime was committed" mantra of the "fringe" that sees no undermining of the CIA as treason. Little credence has been attributed to the fact that the CIA started the Plame investigation rolling when it complained that classified information about a CIA employee had been leaked to the press. Quote:
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#19 (permalink) | |||||||||
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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BTW, the matter you refer to should accurately be described as an attempt to GET yellowcake, something that Bush-haters don't like to see clarified, since it actually happened. But you get points for diversionary tactics. And all this time we've been hearing about the REPUBLICANS who try to divert discussion from the actual topic. Let's have some more of the good, the bad, and the ugly. Quote:
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher Last edited by Marvelous Marv; 09-03-2006 at 08:29 AM.. |
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#20 (permalink) |
Banned
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Marv, perhaps you've read nothing that I've provided with regard to news reporting, or of the tenuous thread that the perps who outted Plame the "noc", now hang by, since the odds favor democratic authority to issue subpoenas, conduct investigations, and question wiitnesses, under oath, as soon as in Jan., 2007.
Your taunts indicate that you are iin denial of where this treason as payback OP is headed. You seem to endorse the willful destruction of the CIA, under Bush/Cheney. Curious attitude on your part, during the GWOT which you buy into, dontcha think? The CIA requested the Plame investigation. #2 at DOJ decided that Ashcroft had a conflict of interest and appointed Bush appointed US Attorney for So. Illinois, Patriick Fitzgerald, to conduct an independent investiigation of the "leak", wiith all of the power of an independent attorney general. Fitzgerald iindicted the VP's COS for obstruction of justice. Those are the facts, the contrary crap is spin from those who object to the investigation. Your posts and this thread's OP are part of that spin. They don't change the facts....... |
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#21 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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this is tedious beyond measure.
there is abundant information even in this thread to complicated the conservative gloating over their dubious (imaginary?) take on the information in the **still unreleased** david corn michael issikof book--which i bothered to research, and from which i posted information (by david corn) that to say the least complicates the arbitrary cherry-picked infotainment version that has the conservative set running down the street cheering like people celebrating a victory in the 7th inning of a baseball game. or like a chess player who is so excited to have escaped the opening of a match without being crushed, and imagines that the middle game will unfold differently that he starts wildly celebrating without even thinking about the endgame. but none of the conservative set can answer basic questions. none of the conservative set even registers basic questions. personally, i am took the plame thing as more an index of how the bushpeople operate than the signal event around which all problems turned. the right seems to imagine this scenario to be reversed. i assume that they have become accustomed to viewing the world upside-down over the past 6 sorry years. let us rehearse the problems one last time before we retire from this thread and begin watching the actual game, as opposed the the game the conservative set pretends is in front of them: 1. it is only in conservativeland that the plame affair has been reduced to a very narrow question of motivation. 1a. it is only in conservativeland that this reduction to motivation requires that every last player be explicitly motivated by trying to fuck over a critic of the iraq debacle. 1b. it is only in conservativeland that the personal ambivalence about iraq that richard armitage means that the whole affair has been addressed you have to have swallowed conservativelands bizarre narrative about the plame affair to find this information about armitage compelling. even then, the information that the wapo article presents isself-evidently cherrypicked. the population of conservativeland cannot even start to address any of this. your narrative has no power, folks: your evidence has no weight because your narrative has no power. but enjoy yourselves jumping up and down over some imaginary victory in a game that only you are playing (no-one outside of conservativeland accepts your idiotic reduction-to-explicit motive view of this affair). i am going back to watching the real game. we'll maybe chat about this and other such stuff in mid november
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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#22 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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<embed src='http://us.i1.yimg.com/cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/player/media/swf/FLVVideoSolo.swf' flashvars='id=802382&emailUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fvideo.yahoo.com%2Futil%2Fmail%3Fei%3DUTF-8%26vid%3Daa866d3a96001d29b6da93dd0ff321fb.802382%26vback%3DStudio%26vdone%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fvideo.yahoo.com%252Fvideo%252Fstudio%253Fei%253DUTF-8&imUrl=http%253A%252F%252Fvideo.yahoo.com%252Fvideo%252Fplay%253F%2526ei%253DUTF-8%2526vid%253Daa866d3a96001d29b6da93dd0ff321fb.802382&imTitle=beck&searchUrl=http://video.yahoo.com/video/search?p=&profileUrl=http://video.yahoo.com/video/profile?yid=&creatorValue=YXN0YWFu' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width='425' height='350'></embed>
Bob Beckel - popular DEMOCRATIC strategist since the late 60's - agrees with Ustwo. As do I. Although I thought it was a political witchunt from day one anyway and stated so. Props to those forthright enough to concede with some grace. Hopefully, the Wilsons can now move on to more important things, like hawking their hard-won scandal books. ![]() Last edited by powerclown; 09-03-2006 at 12:45 PM.. |
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#23 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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that's nice powerclown.
you found a democrat that agrees with you. i dont see any particularl significance in that, but whatever floats your boat is, i suppose, fine. how about you actually read through the thread and respond to the critiques of the infotainment that you are celebrating? full disclosure: i was kind of watching this to see how it unfolded and was kind of agnostic about its significance. but i did see it as symptomatic of how the right operates. i still see it as symptomatic of how the right operates: and the action of the conservative set here is pretty much as one would expect: rigid repetition of the official line of the moment, unable or unwilling to either pose or answer questions, one-dimensional thinking for a one-dimensional politics. i'd be disappointed if i didnt already expect so little. but i understand--it must be tough to be standing in a shrinking room, disaster in afghanistan, civil war in iraq, bush at about 34% approval in the polls, article after article outlining weakness in republican prosects for november, waiting to be crushed in the next elections, clutching at whatever straws your far right media presents you...it cant be easy.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 09-03-2006 at 03:12 PM.. |
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#27 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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By that logic, Bush's Iraq war policy is a "complete and total disaster" because one Republican Senator (actually more than one) has described it as such on numerous occasions.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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#28 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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1+4+6+3+6+2-5-2-8+4+6-10 DOES NOT equal 2. Not in any sane human mind. While I vouchsafe the Gordian intricacies, the presuppositions must surely be uncorroborated. |
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#29 (permalink) | ||||||||||||||
Banned
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Bob Beckel has already changed his opiinion....once: Quote:
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http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...48#post2078748 I am including it again because it still contains relevant facts in "the case'' that have never been impeached. It also demonstrates that the same game of the foks who won't discuss the facts or try to impeach them, still post only glib attacks against Plame's husband Joe Wilson, and apparently pass that off as relevant and informative addiition to a discussion that logic indicates, should be about analyzing and embracng or refuting, news reporting and statements by Patrick Fitzgerald and of the judges who have ruled on his motiions and those of Scooter Libby's attorneys......but it isn't....and it's not from a lack of trying to do just that....on my part. Does the bashing of Joe Wilson mesh with the news reporting or the CIA request for investigation of the Plame leak, or with any Fitzgerald statement or of the court? Is it at all coherent in any examination of the facts? Show us how.....or stop doing it! Quote:
that refutes news reports that Plame's nearest neighbors did not know that she was a CIA employee, or show us credible support for the claim that 'Wilson's wife sent him to Niger". Show us where Wilson claimed that Cheney sent him to Niger. Show us how Bush's 16 SOTU words in Jan 2003, were legitimate, when he delivered them, and show us what unbiased 'mainstream" news reporters are on record, claiming that they personally knew that Plame worked for CIA before June, 2003.</b> Please provide news reportiing...not ediitorials or opinion pieces, or claims of former CIA employees who left the agency ten or more years ago. I haven't seen any of those kind of citations provided, to transform your Wiilson bashing from a Rovian "fringe psy-Op", into an argument for discussion on its merits....in a poltics forum. Last edited by host; 09-03-2006 at 10:21 PM.. |
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#30 (permalink) |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Powerclown the fact that there are democrats who see the error of their ways in this is disturbing.
I want them to continue to hound on it much like the dogged desperation, to find something out of nothing, we see in this thread. The Republicans may not deserve another term based on their lack of domestic backbone (we didn't put them in there in 1994 to write a lot of checks) but they are still better than the alternative, though that line is now just about obliterated on the domestic front.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#31 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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WHOEVER IS INTERESTED IN STUDYING THESE MATTERS NEED LOOK NO FURTHER THAN THEIR FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD GOOGLE. FOR NOW ANYWAY, I'M DONE SPENDING TIME RESEARCHING MATERIAL FOR ANGSTY PLATEHEADS, PARANOID SCHIZOPHRENICS, POLITICOPHILES, PRIMADONNAS AND DENSITOMETERS. WILL YOU SAY "PSY-OP" ONE MORE TIME THOUGH PLEASE? |
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#32 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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As a paranoid schizophrenic, I have to say that I'm concerned that your only argument in this thread is that one democrat (out of tens of millions) is siding with this. I'm sure that you understand that's meaningless. Mr. Beckel isn't really privy to any information that we don't have access to. He simply came to a different conclusion than host or roach or dc or ratbastid (or myself). Until we actually have his line of thought, it's just a conclusion from another outside party. The better argument here is the one made in the OP. The smart retort is "Where's the proof?". Bob Beckel seems like a nice guy, but we don't klnow what his level of involvement is in this situation. Until we do, he's opinion carries no more weight than mine or yours. |
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#33 (permalink) | ||||
Artist of Life
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I can see I'm jumping into a shark tank; just know that I'm fresh to this forum.
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Anyway. Novak's rebuttal to the allegations against him is filled with gaps. According to Novak, the official dropped the fact that Plame was employed by the CIA. Novak also defended that he only stated that Wilson's wife was an analyst, not a covert operative. I was curious, however, about Mrs. Plame funding of Al Gore in 1999 through her fake firm, Brewster Jennings & Associates. Novak claimed that... Quote:
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There is also the matter of this "senior administration official." If Novak claims to be innocent, then why not reveal the identity of this person? In an August 27, 2006 appearance on Meet the Press, Novak was asked if Armitage was his source. To which Novak responded: Quote:
Sources: Novak, Robert (October 1, 2003). "The CIA leak", www.usatoday.com/news/pdf/plame_lawsuit.pdf, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plame_Affair Last edited by Ch'i; 09-04-2006 at 01:40 AM.. |
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#34 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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i am still confounded by the fact that some see this entire affair as a politically motivated witchunt.
Was the initital CIA internal investigation a democratic ploy? Or the appointment of Fitzgerald by AG Ashcroft? Was the grand jury politically motivated? Where's the beef? The facts speak for themselves. Quote:
Clinton was impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice. I guess that was a partisan witchunt as well.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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#35 (permalink) | |
Banned
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that the administration outted a Cia "NOC" during it's own "GWOT" to demonstrate that dissent similar to what the NOC's husband publcly displayed would not be tolerated without political revenge. Because of this act of spite at the least.....it will be more difficult to recruit new Cia NOCs smart enough to do the required job. The outting of Plame also goes against everything that those who believe and support the administration claim justifies their support for it. Either they embrace the fairy tale that Plame's husband Wilson made the whole thing up and somehow got the Cia and DOJ to support Wilson and the republican controlled government to baselessly investigate and embarass the administration.....or.... they would have to react to what the administration actually did....from it's justification for iraq invasion to the outtiing of Plame as an 'example'.....and that would all require introspection that they are'nt ready to do.....they would have to honestly re-examine their fairy tale about what they say happened in Vietnam....fiirst. Hence, all of the dysfunctiion and deniial of the record of the actual circumstances of the plame leak that even conservative federal appeals court justices and a republican appointed special counsel, as well as the rest of us....all have accepted for a while now....as findings of fact. |
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#36 (permalink) | ||||||
Cunning Runt
Location: Taking a mulligan
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Who did it, Jimmy Hoffa? What a pathetic fabrication. ![]() ![]() ![]()
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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." Margaret Thatcher |
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#37 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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Perhaps I could understand the position of those who find fault with the whole "affair" if someone with that position can suggest the criteria that distinguish a politically motivated witchunt from a proper investigation of potential wrongdoing.
Is any investigation of potential or alleged misconduct, ethical lapses or criminal activity by this administration a witchunt? Would you apply the same standards if it was a Dem administration? How would you hold any administration accountable for its actions?
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
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#38 (permalink) | |
Pissing in the cornflakes
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Guilt was assumed, it wasn't proven in the least, hell it didn't even make sense, but that didn't stop members of this board, and from propaganda sites like truthout.org and even mainstream media from left of center sources from convicting the man on no proof beyond the word of her husband, who ironically is perhaps the most to blame in this whole silly messy. Even if we pretend it was Rove in some happy left wing Candy Land, its not even apparent that a law would have been broken as her status may not have been one that identification of her as an agent was illegal. That I'll leave to debate, as the Plame's are not answering the needed questions on that, and that also doesn't take into account that she may have been long compromised prior. I still think it would have been bad form by Rove to do so even in passing, but to claim it was done as a deliberate sabotage of some minor diplomats wife career is just asinine in the extreme. If mean spiritedness was in fact a motivation, I'm sure that the executive branch could ruin Mrs. Plame's career as a CIA agent without exposing themselves to legal action.
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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps. |
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#40 (permalink) | ||||||||
Banned
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This legal pleading excerpt by Patrick Fitzgerald in response to a Discovery Motion by Scooter Libby's defense team, to the judge presiding over the criminal trial of Libby for five counts of perjury and obstruction of justice in the Plame CIA Leak investigation is certainly relevant: Quote:
.....and finally, Marvelous Marv....I'll leave it to other readers to decide for themselves, what your mocking quote of ole "host's" comments about Bill Gertz and your "allegedley" gambit, reveal about the respective earnestness of you....and of me. Not only did you fail to reply to my post, ten months ago, http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...5&postcount=61 in which I provided a thorough rebuttal to your NRO/Bill Gertz "stuff", in your last post here,......but you copied and pasted the quote of my Bill Gertz comment from that ten month old post, to mock me on this thread. I even posted a second time.....ten months ago, asking you to respond to the post I linked in the preceding paragraph: Quote:
<b>Marv, you're giving me an impression</b> that your goal in your last post, and in any of your posts on this thread, is not to stimulate a discussion, or even to defend your POV. Last edited by host; 09-04-2006 at 10:12 PM.. |
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affair, plame |
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