Let the Riots Begin...uh....not - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

tecoyah · 08-16-2006, 06:51 PM

Interesting that this is barely even news....though I suppose its a good thing Jews do not like to have a tissy over cartoons.

"Last Updated: Tuesday, 15 August 2006, 17:50 GMT 18:50 UK

Iran displays Holocaust cartoons
The cartoon shows the letter L in Israel formed by a boot stepping on the world
The drawings were chosen from entries in a competition
More than 200 Holocaust cartoons from around the world are on display at a museum in the Iranian capital, Tehran.

Organisers of the exhibition say they are testing the West's commitment to freedom of speech. "

More...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4795709.stm

djtestudo · 08-16-2006, 07:52 PM

Why is freedom of speech being tested by people who want to see it eliminated?

Willravel · 08-16-2006, 08:00 PM

Sometimes I wonder where all the adults in the world went. When I was a boy, I remember looking up to my parents as superhero-esque figures that were the very model of adulthood. As I matured, I realized that they were just like me, trying to make their way in the world. Big kids. Now I'm starting to wonder if ANYONE is really an adult. What kind of infantile person does it take to hold a competition to find racist cartoons about the holocaust as a response to racist cartoons about Islamic suicide bombers?! How old are these people, 6? 7, maybe?

It's all seems a bit too silly to be real, doesn't it?

docbungle · 08-16-2006, 08:04 PM

Seems fair to me, what they are doing with these cartoons. Childish, and without taste, but fair.

Elphaba · 08-16-2006, 09:03 PM

I did a Google Image search earlier today and found about a dozen images, all as lame as the Danish cartoons.

What was interesting was the SEO effort to keep those cartoons from being found first...

Quote:

...the Israeli News Agency has launched an internet search engine optimization (SEO) campaign, which encourages websites and bloggers to write about the topic without showing the drawings and to link to their site as a way to block the Iranian sites from getting top listings in search engines.

I guess this beats burning flags, firing guns, and the like. Why "cartoons" are taken this seriously is something I can't fathom.

fresnelly · 08-17-2006, 05:18 AM

From what I remember, those Danish cartoons didn't cause much fuss for a long time either. They were only pilloried months later by those eager to fan the flames of conflict.

ratbastid · 08-17-2006, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Sometimes I wonder where all the adults in the world went. When I was a boy, I remember looking up to my parents as superhero-esque figures that were the very model of adulthood. As I matured, I realized that they were just like me, trying to make their way in the world. Big kids. Now I'm starting to wonder if ANYONE is really an adult. What kind of infantile person does it take to hold a competition to find racist cartoons about the holocaust as a response to racist cartoons about Islamic suicide bombers?! How old are these people, 6? 7, maybe?

It's all seems a bit too silly to be real, doesn't it?

I'm constantly amazed at the effort people put into blinding themselves to any point of view but their own, and the goofy shit they pull to maintain their world-view. I mean, for instance, not to see Hezbullah's side of the recent conflict takes actual concerted effort. I'm not condoning random civilian-targetted rocket fire, but to just say, "Well, they're the bad guys"... I mean, that can only be deliberate ignorance.

mixedmedia · 08-23-2006, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Sometimes I wonder where all the adults in the world went. When I was a boy, I remember looking up to my parents as superhero-esque figures that were the very model of adulthood. As I matured, I realized that they were just like me, trying to make their way in the world. Big kids. Now I'm starting to wonder if ANYONE is really an adult. What kind of infantile person does it take to hold a competition to find racist cartoons about the holocaust as a response to racist cartoons about Islamic suicide bombers?! How old are these people, 6? 7, maybe?

It's all seems a bit too silly to be real, doesn't it?

Nope, I'm afraid only adults have the myopic obssessive tendencies necessary to spend the last 6 months or so putting together a stupid cartoon contest and exhibition solely intended to poo-poo in the face of a country that had nothing to do with the stupid cartoons that started all this hysteria in the first place. Kids would have forgotten about it and gone on to build a fort or something months ago....

Ch'i · 08-23-2006, 07:04 PM

Maybe displaying their racism via cartoons puts them in a child-like state of reponse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia
Kids would have forgotten about it and gone on to build a fort or something months ago....

Couldn't agree more. One of the bold characteristics that separates adults from children is their ability to hold grudges for an absurd amount of time.
Most of the time the end product of things like these cartoons end up being much worse than the original problem.

Ustwo · 08-23-2006, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I'm constantly amazed at the effort people put into blinding themselves to any point of view but their own, and the goofy shit they pull to maintain their world-view. I mean, for instance, not to see Hezbullah's side of the recent conflict takes actual concerted effort. I'm not condoning random civilian-targetted rocket fire, but to just say, "Well, they're the bad guys"... I mean, that can only be deliberate ignorance.

Not many people wake up thinking, 'gee what evil can I do today'.

I know people who still give the old 'Hitler did good things too' line. One is a very nice guy who had a Grandfather in the Waffen SS and another relative who was on trial for warcrimes after WWII. Every conflict has two sides, and there is almost always something good you can find in your enemy, but that doesn't mean that you should support them or remain neutral.

Its a mental check list.

They build schools -good
The school teach the children to hate the jews - bad
They build hospitals - good
They put arms and military bunkers inside to either prevent attack or exploit the civilian casualties if they are attacked - bad
They want to destroy isreal - ok well bad

To me Hezzbolah isn't 'the bad guys' because someone told me they were. Hezzbolah are the bad guys because they do a lot of bad things, like teaching a generation to hate and murder based on religion.

Oh and yea there is that whole 'random civilian rocket fire' thing too, you seem to weakly dismiss.

Sometimes in life its important to grow a backbone and pick a side, not waffle around trying to find the evil in good and the good in evil.

host · 08-23-2006, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

.......Sometimes in life its important to grow a backbone and pick a side, not waffle around trying to find the evil in good and the good in evil.

Quote:

<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Removal">Indian Removal</a>
<A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears">Trail of Tears</A>
<a href="http://www.cviog.uga.edu/Projects/gainfo/chero-br.htm">The Cherokee Cases: The Confrontation of Law and Politics</a>

Quote:

http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/n....jsp?id=h-2720
Worcester v. Georgia (1832)

In the court case Worcester v. Georgia, the U.S. Supreme Court held in 1832 that the Cherokee Indians constituted a nation holding distinct sovereign powers. Although the decision became the foundation of the principle of tribal sovereignty in the twentieth century, it did not protect the Cherokees from being removed from their ancestral homeland in the Southeast.

Quote:

http://www.stateline.org/live/ViewPa...ontentId=14068

Wednesday, July 05, 2000
Indian Land Claim Stirs Passions in Illinois

.........In the 1830s, the tribe said, that agreement was scrapped without the Miamis' agreement and as many as 12,000 tribe members were forced to relocate to Kansas with "significant" casualties along the way. Thirty years later, another forced migration moved them to their current home near Miami, Okla.

The land in question covers parts of 15 counties and is populated by more than 200,000 people. Mostly farmland, it is larger in size than an area encompassing all of Chicago and its suburbs.

For those being sued, there is dismay, skepticism and anger, particularly given that the families of many of the defendants in the Miami lawsuit have farmed their ground for generations.

<b>"If you ask me, I think this is a bunch of bull----," said Clarence Borries, a 72-year-old retired farmer from Effingham County, whose family has owned its property since the 1870s. "We've raised 11 kids here, and someone shouldn't be able to take it away.

"Like I told my son,'' he continued, "maybe we ought to get a bunch of shotgun shells on hand. We might need them.''

Tiger said his tribe hasn't decided what to do with the land's present-day occupants if it somehow prevails in its lawsuit. But he said he and his tribe empathize with the feelings of the landowners they are now suing.

"The feelings people have had and what they are expressing today is similar to what our people expressed at a time when many Indians were removed to strange areas. Indian people were in the same situation. And at the time, I'm sure our people thought it was BS too,'' he said.</b>

It is dangerous to walk a mile or two in the other fellow's mocassins. It is easier to "pick a side", and simply demonize the opposition. Black and white.

If you do allow yourself to ponder "the problem", all of the arguments that justify Israel's rights to "biblical (ancestral) lands", also justify the rights of native Americans to pursue the similar goals, and to the Palestinians, as well.
Isn't the US Government of our great great grandfathers, and the states of Georgia and Illinois, and Thomas Jefferon, in !802, the "evil", from the perspective of what was right and just?

How do we explain away the injustice that we do, merely by replying that we "picked a side", and called it "white"?

flstf · 08-24-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

It is dangerous to walk a mile or two in the other fellow's mocassins. It is easier to "pick a side", and simply demonize the opposition. Black and white.

If you do allow yourself to ponder "the problem", all of the arguments that justify Israel's rights to "biblical (ancestral) lands", also justify the rights of native Americans to pursue the similar goals, and to the Palestinians, as well.
Isn't the US Government of our great great grandfathers, and the states of Georgia and Illinois, and Thomas Jefferon, in !802, the "evil", from the perspective of what was right and just?

How do we explain away the injustice that we do, merely by replying that we "picked a side", and called it "white"?

I don't know how to explain the injustice other than the fact that the world is just not fair. Most of the countries in the world took land that was inhabited by someone else and those people probably took it from someone else and so on.. In most cases which side you pick depends on whether you benefit or not. In the case of Israel verses Islamic extremists I choose to not support the Islamic extremists.

host · 08-24-2006, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

I don't know how to explain the injustice other than the fact that the world is just not fair. Most of the countries in the world took land that was inhabited by someone else and those people probably took it from someone else and so on.. In most cases which side you pick depends on whether you benefit or not. In the case of Israel verses Islamic extremists I choose to not support the Islamic extremists.

IMO, you made a reasonable statement, and then you "picked a side".
Why did you omit "extremists", after, "In the case of Israel"? Isn't anyone who kills others to take their land, or to attempt to take it back, by definition, an "extremist"?

Weren't the states of Georgia and Illinois, and the federal government, in the 1830's, extremists? If you "side" with Israel, wouldn't you also have to "side" with the descendants of the native American Cherokee and the Miami, to be consistent in the rationale of your "sidedness"?

Does the rhetoric of a "side", earn that "side" the "extremist" label, as in "we are committed to driving the zionist devils into the sea, via jihad", but the actual violence that a "side" commits, either against members of the other "side", or in the 1830's in the US, and in Israel, today.....the violence committed, both against the other "side", and against the established law on their own "side", earn an "extremist" label?

Maybe even asking these questions is "frowned upon", in the earlier posted axiom of:

Quote:

Sometimes in life its important to grow a backbone and pick a side, not waffle around trying to find the evil in good and the good in evil.

...and maybe followed, appropriately, with:

Quote:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp...nguage=printer
By Mike Allen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, August 5, 2002; Page A02

Bush, wearing khakis and a knit shirt, was holding a driver in his gloved left hand. The rest of his foursome, including his father, former president George H.W. Bush, was waiting. However incongruous the setting, the president plunged ahead. "There are a few killers who want to stop the peace process that we have started, and we must not let them," he said. "I call upon all nations to do everything they can to stop these terrorist killers."

His business out of the way, Bush barely paused for breath before saying, <b>"Thank you. Now watch this drive."</b>

I think that the:

Quote:

....grow a backbone and pick a side, not waffle around ....

is a great way to encourage the incuriousity so endemic in the current US president....and in his enablers, his supporters....... incuriousity that has already initiated and or, encouraged a horrifying number of entirely avoidable maimed and killed "bystanders", all over the globe...and that, IMO, is observable "evil".

Ustwo · 08-24-2006, 10:58 AM

host my boy, ask yourself two questions:

What is it the Israeli's want?
What is it Hezbollah wants?

That is where you may find why one is labed extremist, and the other is not by rational men.

ratbastid · 08-24-2006, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

To me Hezzbolah isn't 'the bad guys' because someone told me they were. Hezzbolah are the bad guys because they do a lot of bad things, like teaching a generation to hate and murder based on religion.

Oh and yea there is that whole 'random civilian rocket fire' thing too, you seem to weakly dismiss.

Sometimes in life its important to grow a backbone and pick a side, not waffle around trying to find the evil in good and the good in evil.

Okay, but even your assessment is desperately one-sided.

Hezzbolah is demanding the return of roughly 2000 Lebanese detainees and the end of Israel's de-facto occupation of southern Lebanon. We don't hear much about that, of course, but the fact is that Israel has violated Lebanese sovreignty in the name of security for decades. Hezzbolah is fighting to end that. I'm not saying their actions are right, but even "they do a lot of bad things, so they're the bad guys" overlooks the justification for those bad things they do.

American media, of course, hasn't really mentioned these justifications. The American black-and-white mindset is fostered by the sound-bite-oriented news coverage we're given and the inborn biases of our culture and leadership. Israel = good, anybody muslim = bad. Who really cares what Israel has been doing to those no good terrorist towelheads for the last ten years?

As a side note, I think that the Israeli attitude of "protecting our people at any cost" is as dangerous an approach to global politics as anything on the planet.

flstf · 08-24-2006, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

IMO, you made a reasonable statement, and then you "picked a side".
Why did you omit "extremists", after, "In the case of Israel"? Isn't anyone who kills others to take their land, or to attempt to take it back, by definition, an "extremist"?

Weren't the states of Georgia and Illinois, and the federal government, in the 1830's, extremists? If you "side" with Israel, wouldn't you also have to "side" with the descendants of the native American Cherokee and the Miami, to be consistent in the rationale of your "sidedness"?

Does the rhetoric of a "side", earn that "side" the "extremist" label, as in "we are committed to driving the zionist devils into the sea, via jihad", but the actual violence that a "side" commits, either against members of the other "side", or in the 1830's in the US, and in Israel, today.....the violence committed, both against the other "side", and against the established law on their own "side", earn an "extremist" label?

I don't doubt that the Europeans and then the Colonists did many unjust things to the Native Americans in order to take the land that they lived on. Just as I don't doubt that Native Americans also fought with each other over the same lands.

The reason I used the term extremist in the case of Israel's enemies is not just because they want the land but because they also seem to want to destroy western culture for religious reasons.

host · 08-24-2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

I don't doubt that the Europeans and then the Colonists did many unjust things to the Native Americans in order to take the land that they lived on. Just as I don't doubt that Native Americans also fought with each other over the same lands.

The reason I used the term extremist in the case of Israel's enemies is not just because they want the land but because they also seem to want to destroy western culture for religious reasons.

That is hardly a unique goal....even it if it is more than rhetoric.
Why, you may even live in a land bathed in the blood of "jihad"!

Quote:

One of the first Christians to enter the Virginia territory, Arthur Barlowe, arrived in 1584. He described the Native Americans as, "...we were entertained with all love and kindness and with as much bounty, ...as they could possibly devise. We found the people most gentle loving, and faithfull, void of all guile and treason ... a more kind and loving people there cannot be found in the world, as farre as we have hitherto had triall."....

.....April 10, 1606, the Charter for the Virginia Colony was signed. It reads in part, "To the glory of His divine Majesty, in propagating of the Christian religion to such people as yet live in ignorance of the true knowledge and worship of God." Less than 20 years before, Arthur Barlowe had described the Native Amercans with greatest praise for their kindness and charity. In the campaign to force Christianity on the Native Americans, the Virginia Christians reported, "...we burnt, and spoyled their corne, and Towne, all the people beeing fledde."

mixedmedia · 08-24-2006, 11:46 AM

I think it's important not to lump all Muslim causes, concerns, struggles into one "Al Qaeda" whole. The Palestinian Hamas and Hezbollah organizations have not professed a determination to destroy Western culture. Their causes are regional and largely geo-political. That's not to say that I support their causes, I most certainly do not. But I do not think Israel has managed its enterprises with agility or good judgement, either.

host · 08-24-2006, 11:58 AM

We enjoy the result, in the US, of most people clinging to what they've "been led to believe", or traditional beliefs, or "religious beliefs", sprinkled with a strong dose of AIPAC and JINSA bs, and the former US military commanders, current white house appointees and elected officials who are currently or formerly affiliated with JINSA, and the confluence of the "extremist" eschatology espoused by the US christian right.

It shows itself in the disjointed, illogical arguments and extreme prejudice against any ideas that are "anti Israel". If you question the "set-up" of conventional belief, you "hate Israel, and love the terrorists".

I am not "led to believe" that which I post. I had to fight for what I believe, against a very strong, institutionalized "tide". What do you "know", and what has been fed to you? Don't you wonder why you are not working to "liberate" native Americans on reservations? Aren't they very similar to persecuted zionists, in the M.E.?

Seaver · 08-24-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

I am not "led to believe" that which I post. I had to fight for what I believe, against a very strong, institutionalized "tide". What do you "know", and what has been fed to you? Don't you wonder why you are not working to "liberate" native Americans on reservations? Aren't they very similar to persecuted zionists, in the M.E.?

Um... Natives on Reservations are fully able to leave whenever they want. There's nothing to "liberate" them from, many tribes make billions on their reservations and never want to leave. I'm not saying horrible things did not occur... but they didn't occur because of us or our father's generations.

They are not living in persecution, they're not being gassed, tortured, or killed specifically because of their religion or race. We are not crying out for all Reservations and their inhabitants to be destroyed.

Apple =! Orange

And just because you fight to believe what you believe does not mean you're correct. I can go against the grain and say I believe that the earth is round... does not mean that it therefore has any validity.

flstf · 08-24-2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I think it's important not to lump all Muslim causes, concerns, struggles into one "Al Qaeda" whole. The Palestinian Hamas and Hezbollah organizations have not professed a determination to destroy Western culture. Their causes are regional and largely geo-political. That's not to say that I support their causes, I most certainly do not. But I do not think Israel has managed its enterprises with agility or good judgement, either.

You may be right about Hezbollah, maybe it is just us and not all the west they want to destroy. Nasrallah gave a speech on Al-Manar TV back in 2005 where he said "Our motto, which we are not afraid to repeat year after year is: Death to America"

Also I believe prior to 9/11, Hezbollah was responsible for more American casualties than any other terrorist organization in the world.

Marvelous Marv · 08-27-2006, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

I'm constantly amazed at the effort people put into blinding themselves to any point of view but their own, and the goofy shit they pull to maintain their world-view. I mean, for instance, not to see Hezbullah's side of the recent conflict takes actual concerted effort. I'm not condoning random civilian-targetted rocket fire, but to just say, "Well, they're the bad guys"... I mean, that can only be deliberate ignorance.

Let's see... fight an enemy who has superior force, in the only way you know, to regain rights you think have been taken from you. Employ blatant disregard for civilian life, and have a penchant for using explosives.

Yes, it would be deliberate ignorance not to see Timothy McVeigh's side of things.

08-16-2006, 06:51 PM	#1 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	Let the Riots Begin...uh....not Interesting that this is barely even news....though I suppose its a good thing Jews do not like to have a tissy over cartoons. "Last Updated: Tuesday, 15 August 2006, 17:50 GMT 18:50 UK Iran displays Holocaust cartoons The cartoon shows the letter L in Israel formed by a boot stepping on the world The drawings were chosen from entries in a competition More than 200 Holocaust cartoons from around the world are on display at a museum in the Iranian capital, Tehran. Organisers of the exhibition say they are testing the West's commitment to freedom of speech. " More... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/4795709.stm __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

08-16-2006, 07:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Why is freedom of speech being tested by people who want to see it eliminated? __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

08-16-2006, 08:04 PM	#4 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	Seems fair to me, what they are doing with these cartoons. Childish, and without taste, but fair. __________________ Bad Luck City

08-17-2006, 05:18 AM	#6 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	From what I remember, those Danish cartoons didn't cause much fuss for a long time either. They were only pilloried months later by those eager to fan the flames of conflict. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

08-24-2006, 10:58 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	host my boy, ask yourself two questions: What is it the Israeli's want? What is it Hezbollah wants? That is where you may find why one is labed extremist, and the other is not by rational men. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

08-16-2006, 08:00 PM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Sometimes I wonder where all the adults in the world went. When I was a boy, I remember looking up to my parents as superhero-esque figures that were the very model of adulthood. As I matured, I realized that they were just like me, trying to make their way in the world. Big kids. Now I'm starting to wonder if ANYONE is really an adult. What kind of infantile person does it take to hold a competition to find racist cartoons about the holocaust as a response to racist cartoons about Islamic suicide bombers?! How old are these people, 6? 7, maybe? It's all seems a bit too silly to be real, doesn't it?

08-24-2006, 11:46 AM	#18 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I think it's important not to lump all Muslim causes, concerns, struggles into one "Al Qaeda" whole. The Palestinian Hamas and Hezbollah organizations have not professed a determination to destroy Western culture. Their causes are regional and largely geo-political. That's not to say that I support their causes, I most certainly do not. But I do not think Israel has managed its enterprises with agility or good judgement, either.

08-24-2006, 11:58 AM	#19 (permalink)
host Banned	We enjoy the result, in the US, of most people clinging to what they've "been led to believe", or traditional beliefs, or "religious beliefs", sprinkled with a strong dose of AIPAC and JINSA bs, and the former US military commanders, current white house appointees and elected officials who are currently or formerly affiliated with JINSA, and the confluence of the "extremist" eschatology espoused by the US christian right. It shows itself in the disjointed, illogical arguments and extreme prejudice against any ideas that are "anti Israel". If you question the "set-up" of conventional belief, you "hate Israel, and love the terrorists". I am not "led to believe" that which I post. I had to fight for what I believe, against a very strong, institutionalized "tide". What do you "know", and what has been fed to you? Don't you wonder why you are not working to "liberate" native Americans on reservations? Aren't they very similar to persecuted zionists, in the M.E.?