Chemical Attack Against Israel? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

inkriminator · 06-28-2006, 06:34 PM

I so hope this isn't true [click for link]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rueters

Gaza militants say fired chemical-tipped warhead
Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:39 PM ET

GAZA (Reuters) - A spokesman for gunmen in the Gaza Strip said they had fired a rocket tipped with a chemical warhead at Israel early on Thursday.

The Israeli army had no immediate comment on the claim by the spokesman from the al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an armed wing of Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah movement.

The group had recently claimed to possess about 20 biological warheads for the makeshift rockets commonly fired from Gaza at Israeli towns. This was the first time the group had claimed firing such a rocket.

"The al-Aqsa Brigades have fired one rocket with a chemical warhead" at southern Israel, Abu Qusai, a spokesman for the group, said in Gaza.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said the army had not detected that any such rocket was fired, nor was there any report of such a weapon hitting Israel.

I've followed the Palestinian conflict from a highly interested follower and researching it and reading books, to more recently a highly disaffected person and only find out what i'm forced to by the media coverage. This however is the first event that truly scares me. I hope to god that this claim isn't true.

My question is, if this is true, what do you believe the repercussions will be? I feel that Israel will dispossess all Palestinians of whatever land they have and forcibly relocate or kill everyone there.

djtestudo · 06-28-2006, 06:50 PM

Personally, I hope they plow the land with salt, but that's just me.

Until the Palestinians show a willingness, let alone an ability, to govern themselves, they shouldn't get any benifit of the doubt.

And electing a terrorist organization to run the government doesn't count.

Gatorade Frost · 06-28-2006, 06:50 PM

I think we'll be right back to where we were before the Israelis started moving out of settlements. If the Palestinians don't want to play ball, well, the Israelis are going to end that real fast. I believe they will probably forcibly relocate them, but I find it hard to believe that they're going to 'kill everyone there.'

djtestudo · 06-28-2006, 06:59 PM

I don't think they'll "kill everyone there" either.

However, between this (if it actually happened), and the raid where two soldiers were killed and one was kidnapped, something should be done.

soccerchamp76 · 06-28-2006, 07:00 PM

CNN.com has nothing of any chemical attack of sorts reported. Reuters is the only source thus far.

inkriminator · 06-28-2006, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

Personally, I hope they plow the land with salt, but that's just me.

I don't see how that is going to have much of an effect, the land isn't particularly arable as it is.

You aren't focusing on the topic I wished to talk about, you are simply venting against the Palestinians. How do you think this situation will play out?

Big ups to Maryland btw

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gatorade Frost

I find it hard to believe that they're going to 'kill everyone there.'

Quote:

Originally Posted by djtestudo

don't think they'll "kill everyone there" either.

You have to pay attention to both parts of what I said, I said they'll move or kill everyone, meaning they will incorporate all of Palestine into the State of Israel and make sure that no palestinians are there. To reiterate, they will move people, and those who will not move will be killed.

Seaver · 06-28-2006, 07:06 PM

If it was a real chemical attack this would be all over the news. Claims it was a chemical warhead is much different than a chemical warhead attack.

If it happens, Israel will unleash the dogs like after the Olympic affair. Only this time they'll have other countries to hold accountable (/cough syria/iraq/iran).

Gatorade Frost · 06-28-2006, 07:07 PM

Well, those who won't leave can be made to leave. Unless the Palestinians start shooting at the Israelis it could go relatively smoothly, but then agai n, I can understand why the Israelis would have an itchy trigger finger with people blowing themselves up and se tting off IEDs. Hopefully if they do move back into the land they already have it'll happen without a war, but I don't suspect we'll be that lucky.

If there is a war, I don't think it will be a largely Middle Eastern affair, just Israel and Palestine with obviously the secret influences behind Palestine, but I don't believe it will be an open war between all of the ME and Israel. If it is, well, I'm sure it'll lead up to war with Iran which would be a shame since it's too soon for that if you ask me.

dlish · 06-30-2006, 02:23 AM

bogus if u ask me..a bit like that iraqi information minister claiming all sorts of rubbish during the start of the iraqi war.

what i find more disturbing is that israel is practically given the green light by the US to rampage into gaza and knock out infrastructure affecting millions of people in the name of 'fighting terror'. all this without a whimper from the west.

all this for one soldier. somebody tell me one IDF soldier is worth more than a million palestinians to israel and the rest of the world. surely israel has a right to 'defend itself', but this i find is way too heavy-handed to be a knee jerk reaction, but rather its a calculated operation by israel. their objective..hmm im not sure yet....just a gut feeling...

Redlemon · 06-30-2006, 06:03 AM

I don't see anything at DEBKAfile, and I would expect them to print it even if mainstream media didn't.

Mojo_PeiPei · 06-30-2006, 09:19 AM

I find no fault in Israel's "knee-jerk reaction". Hamas, being the elected government of the Palestinian people, must be held accountable when it's militants tunnel into Israel, kill 2 soldiers and kidnap another. Or maybe they could consider the halting of daily rocket attacks on Israeli positions. Both actions equate to an act of war. And you are right it is calculated; why does that matter? You have a terrorist organization elected into public office, and they refuse to abandon their terrorist operations and aspirations. With the elections in Palestine, Hamas and the Palestinian people at large were put in the driver seat of the car, by themselves, the UN, the US, the World at large, they need to stop making excuses and buck up, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

dlish · 06-30-2006, 09:42 PM

if the israelis have a qualm with hamas, then so be it. but to annihalate infrastructure that was barely there to begin with and debilitate a nation for the sake of making a point against the legitimately elected government albeit a terrorist organisation is totally wrong.

im sure not all palestinians voted for hamas, so lets not treat them all as if they did.

filtherton · 06-30-2006, 10:32 PM

So where does attacking civilian infrastructure to make a point fall on the terrorism continuum?

Just to be clear, i think there are elements on both side who only exist to draw out the conflict.

host · 07-01-2006, 12:14 AM

Okay....from comments that I've read here so far, I have the impression that the two threads that I started in the last 3 months that displayed my research on JINSA were largely ignored, dismissed, or discounted. Some of the posts I've read here could have been written by JINSA or mossad.....why is their no ability or desire to empathize.....to put one's own feet in the other fellow's shoes for even a moment?

The hair trigger reaction is to side with the nuclear military power....the side that possesses the overwhelming conventional armored military power...the same side with the largest and most influential lobby inserted to influence U.S. government and society. The side that enjoys the support of current and former JINSA affiliates, Cheney, John Bolton, Richard Perle, William Kristol, et al.......

Why does the fact that the world witnessed the news videos of IDF forces reducing, with bulldozers a few years ago, the structure that housed the Palestinian political leader to a splintered shack, with the leader still inside....and then confined him there for the rest of his active days.....not provide a catalyst for the democratic election of Hamas?

I ask you now, Mojo or Seaver, or djestudo, what party would you vote for, if you observed that humiliation of your leader? Did you know that, four years after the IDF closed the new Gaza int. airport, by bulldozing it's main runway, the airport workers still report daily to work at the airport and the terminal, as a reaction of pride and defiiance, and to get paid the wages needed to support themselves.

Fuck yes...they voted for Hamas...the providers of health centers for their families and the most defiant and militant politcal faction that the average man on the street could choose. We live in a world where only the threat of violence gets attention, concessions, and respect. Why do you think John Bolton is the U.S. ambassaor to the U.N. ? Why do you think that North Korea and Iran cling to and flaunt their claimed right to refine weapons grade plutonium?

Here is the link to the 2002 Gaza airport story, and the rest is self explanatory. Consider that Palestinians are as proud as any israeli or American. Consider how you reacted to last year's SCOTUS ruling on eminent domain. Consider that congress lives and does business in DC. Are our politicians held personally responsible for not intervening to stop violent crime and rampant drug distribution in DC?

Would they be more motivated to condemn DC violence if Maryland and Virginia built high walls around DC? Why do you support what the IDF and the Israeli government do against thee majority of Palestinians who commit no violent acts? What would you do if you were a peace abiding, middleaged Palestinian male living in Gaza now, with no electriciity in a summer desert climate, and waning supplies of clean water to sustain you and your family?

http://israelinsider.com/channels/se...s/sec_0170.htm

Quote:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hea...174333969.html
Health crisis looms as plant bombed
June 30, 2006

THE destruction of the only power plant in the Gaza Strip threatens to create a humanitarian disaster because the plant supplied electricity to two-thirds of Gaza's 1.3 million residents and operated pumps that provided water.

Across Gaza yesterday, people hurried to stock up on emergency supplies of bottled water, candles and food that will not spoil.

With nearly three-quarters of a million people without electricity, Gazans sat on the footpath to try to catch a breeze, glancing skyward when Israeli aircraft circled overhead.

Twelve hours later, workers at the power station were still hosing down six wrecked transformers billowing smoke after each one was picked off by a single missile, leaving heaps of buckled metal.

The plant's operations manager, Derar Abu Sisi, predicted it would not be generating again before the end of the year. He said: "What I know about war is that economics and infrastructure is usually the last target … We're very sorry that it's the first stage of war here. They know very well the electricity sector doesn't have weapons."

Britain has challenged Israel's justification for the bombing of the plant. A Foreign Office spokesman said the destruction of the power station represented a collective punishment of a civilian population that posed no military threat. Collective punishments are a war crime outlawed by the fourth Geneva Convention.

Its closure will be felt acutely during the summer, when demand for air-conditioning peaks...

Quote:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,192261,00.html
vHamas Leaders to Appeal Residency Ban
Wednesday, April 19, 2006

JERUSALEM — Four senior Hamas officials will appeal Israel's decision to revoke their Jerusalem residency rights, the Palestinian justice minister said Wednesday.

Israel decided Tuesday to strip three Hamas legislators and a Cabinet minister of their Israeli-issued identity cards, which grant them permanent residency in Jerusalem and freedom of movement in Israel.

The decision was an unprecedented punishment for the Hamas-led Palestinian government's refusal to denounce a suicide bombing by another militant group, Islamic Jihad. The bombing outside a Tel Aviv restaurant Monday killed nine civilians and wounded dozens.

Palestinian Justice Minister Ahmed Khaldi said the Hamas government would back the lawmakers' appeal to Israel's Supreme Court, in part because of Palestinian concerns that Israel was trying to establish a precedent to strip more Jerusalem Palestinians of their residency rights.

Gideon Meir, a senior Israeli Foreign Ministry official, brushed aside those concerns. "There is one reason (for revoking the residency rights), and that reason is terrorism," Meir said. "Someone who is involved in terrorist attacks has to take the consequences."

Khaldi said he believed the four have a strong case. "Israel cannot prove that they were involved in any action that violated the law," he said.......

Did I mention that the shell damaged Gaza power plant is insured via a $48 miillion war/terrorism damage policy that it's developer paid for.....funds that will be paid by issuance of additional U.S. treasury debt?

No need for me to condemn the Palestinian killing and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers, although i agree that it is wrong and counterproductive, but so is blind support for Israel, and the existance of JINSA and the MEGA Israeli lobby of our government and the manipulation of our POV.

powerclown · 07-01-2006, 08:40 AM

Quote:

What would you do if you were a peace abiding, middleaged Palestinian male living in Gaza now, with no electriciity in a summer desert climate, and waning supplies of clean water to sustain you and your family?

Maybe?
Stop my government from calling for the annihilation of my neighbor.
Stop my government from refusing to acknowledge the right of my neighbor to even exist or live in peace.
Stop blowing up my neighbor's bars, restaurants, buses, markets, etc.
Stop firing rockets into my neighbor's house.
Stop trying to hijack my neighbor's commercial airplanes.
Stop teaching institutionalized hatred of my neighbor to my children in our school system.
Stop voting in terrorists to run my government.
Start talking with my neighbor on behalf of my people, for the good of my people.
Start cleaning up my own house. (Literally and politically)

For example, what was the first thing the Palis did when Israel pulled out of Gaza? Organize and do something productive? No - they start looting and burning down stuff.

Quote:

What a Palestinian State Would Look Like
by Cinnamon Stillwell
Thursday, October 20, 2005

Since Israel’s disengagement from the Gaza Strip, the Palestinians have basically been left to their own devices. The world has gotten an eyeful of just what a much-anticipated Palestinian state might look like and it’s not a pretty picture.
The dust hadn’t even settled after the last of the Jews had been removed from Gaza when Palestinians resorted to form. Looting and demolishing buildings they might otherwise have been able to reside in, the Palestinians displayed the sort of destructive and dysfunctional behavior they’ve become known for. They soon graduated to burning down synagogues, a time honored tradition from the days of Nazi Germany. In a final orgy of idiocy, they tore apart the expensive greenhouses that altruistic Jews, among others, had foolishly purchased for them in the hopes that they would actually produce something. Who needs food when you can destroy a greenhouse instead?

When reported at all, such actions were described by the mainstream media merely as harmless “celebrations” or chalked up to the frustrations of a long “oppressed” people. Behavior that would be deemed unacceptable were it exhibited by any other group suddenly became fodder for touchy-feely news segments. None of these “reporters” came to the obvious conclusion that had any unarmed Jews remained in the evacuated settlements they would certainly have been slaughtered by these peace-loving Palestinian mobs.

Facing a decrease in Jewish targets, the Palestinians have begun to eat their own. Vigilante killings have gone up exponentially this year, while kidnapping, theft and lawlessness in general is also on the rise. Hamas managed to blow up 16 Palestinians during a routine “work accident” at one of their famous kid-friendly rallies. Yet another rally to “celebrate” the pullout was disrupted by shots fired into the air and crowds stoning the stage. Honor killings, already a regular feature of Palestinian society, continued on unabated. Then there was the small matter of an American and a British reporter being kidnapped by Palestinian terrorists. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

In a glimmer of what “Palestinian democracy” is likely to portend, the terrorist group Hamas appears to be heading for a takeover of government institutions. Should they succeed, senior Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar has promised to install Sharia or Islamic law under which both dancing and gays won’t be allowed. I’m sure members of QUIT (Queers Undermining Israeli Terrorism) will be speaking out against this injustice any day now.

Anyone wondering what a Palestinian state might look like has only to observe the behavior cited above to get an answer. Palestinian culture, such as it is, has been mired in hatred for so long that they have little else to put forward. The death cult that has subsumed their society is in fact what they offer the world. While people all across the globe, including Jews, have survived upheaval and gone on to forge new lives and societies, the Palestinians seem to be incapable of creating anything. Without Israel providing them with water, food and jobs (before the Intifada) and the “international community” pumping them with money, they would simply die off in the desert or be subsumed by their more powerful Arab neighbors. In fact, the latter outcome appears more likely by the day.

But it doesn’t have to be this way. Long ago, I commented on the Palestinians’ potential for achievement should they ever choose to redirect their considerable energies in more productive pursuits. Indeed, the skill at which elaborate effigies of Israeli and American symbols are constructed and later burned, displays a certain penchant for detail. If only effigy factories were a thriving industry, the Palestinians would be all set.

Another Palestinian talent is public relations, an essential component of which consists of constant whining. In fact, they have a whole film industry devoted to producing such propaganda and manipulating the gullible Western media. It’s called Pallywood. A fascinating short documentary (http://seconddraft.org/movies.php) by that name exposes the sets, actors, props and dupes for the world to see. Not that this will stop anyone from continuing to take part in the charade. Like I said, when you’re good, you’re good.

From its mythical beginnings to its continuing ability to attract followers, the “Palestinian cause” has taken on a life of its own. It’s the third world “resistance movement” de jour and entire classes of Westerners would have no purpose in life if not for its existence. The Palestinians can literally do or espouse anything and the world will willingly turn a blind eye. What’s more, they’re falling all over themselves to offer these paragons of virtue their own state.

I don't necessarily think Israel's heavy-handed responses are entirely productive, but the Palis don't give them much to work with. I side with Israel because they are a modern, productive democracy amidst a sea of backwards, aggressive, stubborn, medieval dictatorships. They aren't the problem, they are the answer. The should be role models for the entire Middle East, and I am glad they have an ally in the United States.

dlish · 07-01-2006, 10:23 AM

powerclown...

with the exception of hijacking my neighbours commercial airplanes, the rest of your points can be said about israel too. works both sides of the fence. just hope you can critically analyse both sides.

Stop my government from calling for the annihilation of my neighbor. - if not publically, then secretly. both governments despise each other as much as the other. lets not kid ourselves

Stop my government from refusing to acknowledge the right of my neighbor to even exist or live in peace. - no need to elaborate. look at whats happening now and past incursions like Jenin.

Stop blowing up my neighbor's bars, restaurants, buses, markets, etc. - you forgot to mention bridges and infrastructure.

Stop firing rockets into my neighbor's house. - does the term political assassinations mean anything to you?

Stop teaching institutionalized hatred of my neighbor to my children in our school system. - works both ways this one..or maybe thats just teaching love for ones own culture, land, country etc and hatred for anyone thats trying to take that away.. a bit like the US and what it teaches on al qaeda for example.

Stop voting in terrorists to run my government. - dont tell me sharon wasnt a war criminal

Quote:

I side with Israel because they are a modern, productive democracy amidst a sea of backwards, aggressive, stubborn, medieval dictatorships. They aren't the problem, they are the answer. The should be role models for the entire Middle East, and I am glad they have an ally in the United States.

let me see..if i recall correctly, both the 'palis' and the israelis lives in relative harmony until britain came along anc fucked it all up by diving the middle east for its own material gain and installed these puppet regimes and dictatorships to repress its people, whilst israel was given plenty of the green stuff (in US dollars of course). now where is the part where the 'palis' should be aspiring to be like their neighbours? is it because they were left landless after the west two-timed them and fucked them over so badly that they are left reeling from the consequences more than 50 years later?

you tell me where the justice is...

Seaver · 07-01-2006, 01:36 PM

Quote:

I ask you now, Mojo or Seaver, or djestudo, what party would you vote for, if you observed that humiliation of your leader?

Woah woah woah, how did I get dragged into the non-sympathetic crowd? I simply stated the truth in how Israel would react.

I'm not getting involved in this who is worse conversation. If I was Israel I would fully support the wall and probably serve more than my time in the army, if I was Palistinian I would probably attack any Israeli soldier I found on my territory.

OzOz · 07-01-2006, 04:16 PM

A couple of points to make here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

Stop blowing up my neighbor's bars, restaurants, buses, markets, etc. - you forgot to mention bridges and infrastructure.

There is a distinct difference between the two target sets mentioned. Bridges and other infrastructure are legitimate targets, and it's worth mentioning that the Interior Ministry building was hit during the night, when it could reasonably be expected that there was most likely no-one there.

Bars, restaurants, buses, markets: One feature of all of these things is that they usually contain lots of people - innocent civilians - when they're struck by Palestinian terrorists with the intent of killing and maiming as many of these innocent civilians as possible. If I'm not mistaken, deliberately targeting innocent civilians - as opposed to civilian casualties incurred during a strike on a valid military target when a reasonable effort has been made to reduce the likelihood and extent of such casualties - is a war crime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

Stop firing rockets into my neighbor's house. - does the term political assassinations mean anything to you?

If you're a political leader on either side during wartime, then the bad news for you is that it's Open Season. You're fair game. You'd better hope that your armed forces are up to the job of protecting you.

Another thing to note: In their targetted assassinations, the Israelis usually use a locally-modified version of the Hellfire missile, with a reduced-strength warhead which is large enough to ensure that anyone in a vehicle struck by it is unlikely to survive, but that is reduced in strength in an attempt to reduce collateral damage and casualties. In fact, the warhead is weaker than backpack bombs found carried by some would-be Palestinian suicide bombers, which are designed to cause as much death and destruction as possible.

Putting these two together: The strike which took out Yassin a few years ago now as he was emerging from a mosque killed only three people - Yassin himself and two of his bodyguards. Had you, at the same time, given a Hamas leader the choice of assassinating Sharon (himself a valid military target as Israeli Prime Minister) either with the same type of precise Hellfire strike as he's emerging from a synagogue, or of assassinating him by dropping a 2000lb bomb on the synagogue while he and hundreds of others are inside, which do you seriously think he would choose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

Stop teaching institutionalized hatred of my neighbor to my children in our school system. - works both ways this one..or maybe thats just teaching love for ones own culture, land, country etc and hatred for anyone thats trying to take that away.. a bit like the US and what it teaches on al qaeda for example.

Oh? How far does the US, or Israel for that matter, go in this sense? A friend of mine once worked with a PhD student who was originally from the West Bank. On her first day of kindergarten, she and everyone else in her class had been given a rifle bullet and told to see that it ended up inside a Jew. Can anyone tell me that either the US or Israel indoctrinate their children to this extent? Teaching pride in, and love for, one's country is one thing. Teaching the slaughter of innocent civilians is another entirely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

if I was Palistinian I would probably attack any Israeli soldier I found on my territory.

I would accept your right to do exactly this - in the West Bank, Gaza or in Israel proper, if a state of hostilities existed.

djtestudo · 07-01-2006, 08:28 PM

Host, the problem with what you are asking is that I, for one, have grown up in an environment that has supported open thought far more then it is over there.

So, if I were over there and that happened, I would have enough pride in myself and desire for self-preservation of myself and my family that I would vote for the group that was more likely to support peaceful resolutions to the conflict, and therefore reduce the likelihood of injury coming to my self/family.

However, from my present view, it seems to me that this conflict is likely to end with one group being completely eliminated as a political entity, either through peace and assimulation (ha!) or through force to the point of genocide.

I think that, despite both sides sharing the blame for much of what has happened, the Palestinians have shown a complete lack of willingness and ability to work with, not just Israel, but the whole world, to find a solution, and so they get no sympathy when Israel retaliates to legitamite acts of war.

Mobo123 · 07-01-2006, 10:53 PM

The reason why the Israeli's attack infrastructure is simple, basic military strategy that's been in practice for thousands of years.

For example: Sherman's drive through the south to Atlanta. Sherman's men destroyed everything in their path; homes, twisted railroad ties (bowties), burned cotton crops, freed any slave they ran into, killed as many people as they could.

Why? Because once you finally demoralize the people, the common ordinary people, the ones who ultimately put those leaders in power, you will create massive discontent against the the government THEY put in place.

So, by attacking the palestinian infrastructure, the IDF is essentially waging war against the Hamas government.

My opinion? If that 19 yr old kid isnt returned alive, every single Hamas leader, doesnt matter where they are, are going to die. and every single Hamas leader KNOWS THAT. Hamas knows and believes that threat. Plus they absolutely know that it's not an empty threat. Israel has targeted terrorist leaders before; they WILL do it again.

I guarantee that Hamas leadership are on their knees praying to Allah that whoever kidnapped that kid returns him alive.

Israel has held back at this point for only one reason: The White House told them not to do it.

Bush doesnt want an escalation in the middle east because greater unrest will result in higher gasoline prices here at home. With the mid-term elections coming up soon, higher gas prices would virtually gaurantee the loss of the Republican-controlled congress and senate.

Remember, without US support, there IS no Israel. Period. There is not one country on the face of the earth that likes or wants Israel to exist.

I'll end this diatribe with a joke i heard recently, courtesy of Jay Leno.

Q: Why was Moses dumb?
A: Because after wandering the desert for 40 years, Moses chose to settle on the only piece of land in all of the middle east that DOESNT have any oil.

powerclown · 07-01-2006, 11:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

you tell me where the justice is...

I don't know where the justice is...where is it in the concept of right of return for refugees on the losing side of (multiple) wars? After World War II, Germans living in the Czech Sudetensland, who had been active in agitating for Nazi takeover, were expelled and lost their property. Poland annexed parts of East Prussia at the instigation of the USSR, and settled Poles there, in violation of allied agreements. No compensation was ever offered and no right of return was ever implemented. In 1947, India and Pakistan formed two states, and exchanged populations on a mass scale. No right of return was ever implemented. Turkey absorbed ethnic Turks from Bulgaria, and Finland absorbed Finns displaced by the Russians when Finland ceded territory to them. Further, their "brother" Arabs don't want them in their countries...hows that for judicial solidarity?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobo123

Remember, without US support, there IS no Israel. Period. There is not one country on the face of the earth that likes or wants Israel to exist

Israel is a member of the United Nations. That means that the other 191 member states officially recognize Israel.

host · 07-01-2006, 11:44 PM

sorry, Seaver....I should not have painted your comments wiith tthe same broad brush that I used to repond to Mojo or djestudo.

djestudo, I agree that it may not be possible for people not raised in that area of the world to behave as viiolently oor to react as irrationally as Israelis and Palestinians have.

What I cannot understand iis the assumption of too many that individual Palestinians with no personal history of violent or terrorist acts (the vast majority), and only a recent history of votiing in democratic elections, can be held equally responsible for violent attacks against Israelis, as Israeli political and miilitary leaders are held responsible.

Some here have even indicated that the majoriity of ordinary Palestinians are assumed to be terrorist supporters who deserve to be on the receiving end of any violence that the leaders of the sovereign state of Israel decide to send in their direction.....while official acts of war that reign indiscriminately against Palestinian civilian population are inappropriate to criticize.

The story of the bullet "lesson" in Palestinian 'kindergartens" helps quite a bit to remove a POV that indiviidual Palestinians aree much less culpable than Israeli leaders are.

Can anyone who accepts that "put a bullet in a Jew" story, consider that, even today, much of the state of New Hampshire stiill does not fund or offer "kindergarten"? Folks in an economically devasted and resource starved place like the West Bank and Gaza are fortunate to have kiindergarten as the norm there, though. Did the Palestinian version of the U.S. dept. of Education, design, distribute and fund the kindergarten bullet curriculum?

Even today, Hamas is known to have riival iinternal factions of varying weak or strong support for terroriist tactics. There is also a documented and bitter politiical struggle playing between Hamas and what remains of Arafat's political organization. So...how does the Palestinian who simply tries to provide for his family in the midst of all the upheaval, receive so much scorn and so liittle sympathy from some of you, while you reserve sympathy and support for Israeli leaders who order their soldiers to destroy access to electricity and clean water to hundreds of thousands in the desert during the hottest season of the year?

You obviiously believe that the average Palestinian, just scraping to survive, is more culpable for not making a personal effort to stop a history of suicide bombers who were not commanded or dispatched by a transparent, organiized central authority, than U.S. elected officials in DC who have the authority and the resources to lower crime in DC and to slow iillegal Mexican border infiltration to a trickle, but don't. You don't seem to hold any authority to the high standard of performance that you hold a collection of poverty striicken violence ravaged Palestinians to.

You certaiinly don't hold Shiite supreme cleriic Sistani to the standard of culpabiility that you assign to the Palestinian public's obligation to influence the end of terrorist acts against Israel. Don't you thiink that Sistani could do more to influence hiss followers to help end the insurgency and save lives of Ameriican troops?

How do you come to assign so much blame to powerless individuals who have been stateless for so many years that you weigh their suspected culpabiity for terrorism on a much higher scale than you assign to leaders who we all know have the power and resources to effect reduction in violence, criime, terrorist acts, and border infiltration, but don't?

roachboy · 07-02-2006, 08:55 AM

i am absolutely bafled by the responses in support of if actions in gaza.
i had difficulty expressing it and keeping to the civility game we agree to play here---but this edito from haaretz sums things up and says it better than i could:

Quote:

A black flag

By Gideon Levy

A black flag hangs over the "rolling" operation in Gaza. The more the operation "rolls," the darker the flag becomes. The "summer rains" we are showering on Gaza are not only pointless, but are first and foremost blatantly illegitimate. It is not legitimate to cut off 750,000 people from electricity. It is not legitimate to call on 20,000 people to run from their homes and turn their towns into ghost towns. It is not legitimate to penetrate Syria's airspace. It is not legitimate to kidnap half a government and a quarter of a parliament.

A state that takes such steps is no longer distinguishable from a terror organization. The harsher the steps, the more monstrous and stupid they become, the more the moral underpinnings for them are removed and the stronger the impression that the Israeli government has lost its nerve. Now one must hope that the weekend lull, whether initiated by Egypt or the prime minister, and in any case to the dismay of Channel 2's Roni Daniel and the IDF, will lead to a radical change.

Everything must be done to win Gilad Shalit's release. What we are doing now in Gaza has nothing to do with freeing him. It is a widescale act of vengeance, the kind that the IDF and Shin Bet have wanted to conduct for some time, mostly motivated by the deep frustration that the army commanders feel about their impotence against the Qassams and the daring Palestinian guerilla raid. There's a huge gap between the army unleashing its frustration and a clever and legitimate operation to free the kidnapped soldier.

To prevent the army from running as amok as it would like, a strong and judicious political echelon is required. But facing off against the frustrated army is Ehud Olmert and Amir Peretz's tyro regime, weak and happless. Until the weekend lull, it appeared that each step proposed by the army and Shin Bet had been immediately approved for backing. That does not bode well, not only for the chances of freeing Shalit, but also for the future management of the government, which is being revealed to be as weak as the Hamas government.

The only wise and restrained voice heard so far was that of the soldier's father, Noam Shalit, of all people. That noble man called at what is clearly his most difficult hour, not for stridency and not for further damage done to the lives of soldiers and innocent Palestinians. Against the background of the IDF's unrestrained actions and the arrogant bragging of the latest macho spokesmen, Maj. Gen. Yoav Gallant of the Southern Command and Maj. Gen. (res.) Amos Gilad, Shalit's father's voice stood out like a voice crying in the wilderness.

Sending tens of thousands of miserable inhabitants running from their homes, dozens of kilometers from where his son is supposedly hidden, and cutting off the electricity to hundreds of thousands of others, is certainly not what he meant in his understated emotional pleas. It's a shame nobody is listening to him, of all people.

The legitimate basis for the IDF's operation was stripped away the moment it began. It's no accident that nobody mentions the day before the attack on the Kerem Shalom fort, when the IDF kidnapped two civilians, a doctor and his brother, from their home in Gaza. The difference between us and them? We kidnapped civilians and they captured a soldier, we are a state and they are a terror organization. How ridiculously pathetic Amos Gilad sounds when he says that the capture of Shalit was "illegitimate and illegal," unlike when the IDF grabs civilians from their homes. How can a senior official in the defense ministry claim that "the head of the snake" is in Damascus, when the IDF uses the exact same methods?

True, when the IDF and Shin Bet grab civilians from their homes - and they do so often - it is not to murder them later. But sometimes they are killed on the doorsteps of their homes, although it is not necessary, and sometimes they are grabbed to serve as "bargaining chips," like in Lebanon and now, with the Palestinian legislators. What an uproar there would be if the Palestinians had grabbed half the members of the Israeli government. How would we label them?

Collective punishment is illegitimate and it does not have a smidgeon of intelligence. Where will the inhabitants of Beit Hanun run? With typical hardheartedness the military reporters say they were not "expelled" but that it was "recommended" they leave, for the benefit, of course, of those running for their lives. And what will this inhumane step lead to? Support for the Israeli government? Their enlistment as informants and collaborators for the Shin Bet? Can the miserable farmers of Beit Hanun and Beit Lahia do anything about the Qassam rocket-launching cells? Will bombing an already destroyed airport do anything to free the soldier or was it just to decorate the headlines?

Did anyone think about what would have happened if Syrian planes had managed to down one of the Israeli planes that brazenly buzzed their president's palace? Would we have declared war on Syria? Another "legitimate war"? Will the blackout of Gaza bring down the Hamas government or cause the population to rally around it? And even if the Hamas government falls, as Washington wants, what will happen on the day after? These are questions for which nobody has any real answers. As usual here: Quiet, we're shooting. But this time we are not only shooting. We are bombing and shelling, darkening and destroying, imposing a siege and kidnapping like the worst of terrorists and nobody breaks the silence to ask, what the hell for, and according to what right?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...?itemNo=733427

percy · 07-02-2006, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlishsguy

all this for one soldier. somebody tell me one IDF soldier is worth more than a million palestinians to israel and the rest of the world. surely israel has a right to 'defend itself', but this i find is way too heavy-handed to be a knee jerk reaction, but rather its a calculated operation by israel. their objective..hmm im not sure yet....just a gut feeling...

I think it's somewhat hypocritical for Israel to say they wont deal with Hamas regarding the release of their soldier when just a month or so ago traded an Israeli businessman for Palestinians in Israeli's jails. I suspect some of the heavy handed tactics used by Israel is to buffer claims that Hamas demanded women and children(under 18) released from Israeli prisons since this doesnt put Israel in a positive light international speaking.

I won't get into this that or the other thing because everyone has different truths, but I'd like to see a huge UN presence in the Palestinian territories just to give both sides a chance at peace.I hardly think it is fair that Israel controls the Palestinians every day of life by running the electricity grids, water supply,food supply money supply etc etc then in the last couple days have destroyed whatever infrastructure left ie blowing up government building, razing houses of suspected terrorists and razing farmland not to mention having a say if and when the Palestinians will be recognized as a people and have statehood.

But when you blow people up, someone will get pissed off.

Maybe the media shouldn't cover this conflict anymore.Wonder if things would get better or worse without the constant attention to who is right and wrong or the bigger victims. Darfur or Sierra Leone anyone?

Good find roachboy. I think I'll send this honestreporting. They are pretty fair and reasonable when it comes to media bias.

host · 07-02-2006, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i am absolutely bafled by the responses in support of if actions in gaza.
i had difficulty expressing it and keeping to the civility game we agree to play here---but this edito from haaretz sums things up and says it better than i could.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/S...?itemNo=733427

roachboy...JINSA and AIPAC have gotten their moneys worth....

powerclown · 07-02-2006, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by percy

I think it's somewhat hypocritical for Israel to say they wont deal with Hamas regarding the release of their soldier when just a month or so ago traded an Israeli businessman for Palestinians in Israeli's jails.

I hadn't heard about this. Would you have a link to this story?

Quote:

Olmert Doesn't Get It
By CAROLINE GLICK

Since replacing Ariel Sharon in office last December, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has refused to permit a large-scale IDF incursion into the Gaza Strip. The hundreds of rockets, mortars and missiles that have rendered the Western Negev's population and economy hostage to Palestinian rocket crews could not budge him from his refusal to take the war to the enemy. Indeed, for months he ignored the pleas of residents of Sderot and told the IDF to suffice with artillery fire into empty fields and aerial bombings of terrorists en route to launching rockets.

The fact that Israel's intelligence collection capabilities in Gaza were grievously undermined in the aftermath of last summer's withdrawal; the fact that IDF commanders acknowledge that more weaponry has been brought into Gaza in the past ten months than entered in the previous 38 years, made no impression. Repeated reports of Al Qaida opening shop in Gaza and of Iranian Revolutionary Guards units training Fatah and Hamas members in the destroyed Israeli communities were dismissed as unimportant, irrelevant and insignificant.

Olmert refused to send forces into Gaza to contend with the transformation of Gaza into a strategic threat to Israel because doing so would involve acknowledging that his plan to retreat from Judea, Samaria and parts of Jerusalem will turn Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Hadera, Afula and Beersheba into frontline communities. He refused to send forces into Gaza because doing so would demonstrate that Israel cannot defend its cities from their outskirts.

He refused to send forces into Gaza because it would involve an acknowledgment that Israel is at war and that the war cannot be ignored by building walls or inciting the public against Israeli residents of Judea and Samaria.

He refused to send forces into Gaza because doing so would be tantamount to admitting that all territory abandoned by the IDF is taken over by Israel's enemies.

He refused to send forces into Gaza or take concerted action against Palestinian terror leaders because, as the nasty upbraiding that Israel suffered Thursday at the hands of US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and her colleagues at the G-8 showed, the international community sees Israeli counter-terror operations in the aftermath of the withdrawal from Gaza as no more legitimate than its counter-terror operations before the withdrawal.

So does the fact that this week Olmert finally permitted forces to reenter Gaza mean that he now gets it? Does Olmert's decision to arrest Hamas parliamentarians and government ministers in Judea and Samaria in spite of Condi's objections signal that he has accepted that Israel must destroy its enemies' capacity to attack its territory, its forces and its citizens? Does the fact that Olmert ordered IAF jets to overfly Syrian dictator Bashar Assad's palace mean that he understands that the war being fought against Israel is part of the global jihad? Unfortunately, a close look at Olmert's counter-terror measures makes clear that, no, in spite of the wailing of the international press corps, and the whining of the State Department and its European and Russian counterparts, in fact, Olmert still refuses to get it.

Olmert and his associates in the government have pointed their fingers at Hamas blaming it for the Palestinian guerrilla attack on Israeli territory Sunday morning while ignoring Palestinian Authority Mahmoud Abbas's Fatah terror group's equal share of culpability. It was Fatah, not Hamas that kidnapped and murdered 18-yearold Eliahu Asheri. It is Fatah that is threatening to blow up Israeli embassies abroad. It is Fatah that is threatening to renew shooting attacks on Jerusalem and attack Israel with chemical and biological weapons. It is Fatah that is threatening to kill the IDF hostage Cpl. Gilad Shalit.

While Shin Bet Director Yuval Diskin was preparing the list of Hamas leaders IDF forces arrested in Judea and Samaria Wednesday night, Abbas was finalizing his deal with Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh for the formation of a Hamas-Fatah unity government. Abbas and Haniyeh not only agreed to form a unity government, they also agreed that Hamas would become a member of the PLO. Aside from that, they agreed that to establish a unified force for fighting their joint war against Israel. That is, this week, as Israel trained its rifles on Hamas alone, Abbas effectively unified Hamas with Fatah.

Rather than contending with this development, Olmert and his colleagues chose to ignore it. And this makes sense of course. Acknowledging that Fatah and Hamas are equally at war with Israel would mean that Israel has no option of giving away Judea, Samaria and parts of Jerusalem to any of these groups.

Olmert's decision to blame Syria for Sunday's attack on Kerem Shalom is similarly problematic. Yes, it is true that the orders for Hamas's major operations, (like those of Fatah and Islamic Jihad) come from Syria and Teheran. The fact that the government is acknowledging that the war being fought against Israel is not simply a dispute between Palestinians and Israelis about the partition of the western part of the Land of Israel is on the face of it a welcome development. Unfortunately, the government's acknowledgement of the foreign command of the Palestinian war against Israel is being used not as a justification for fighting, but as a justification for not fighting.

Olmert has used Syria's role in ordering attacks against Israel as a way of letting the local terror commanders Abbas and Haniyeh off the hook. Rather than recognize that they are both subordinate to and supportive of Damascus and Teheran's terror war strategy against Israel, Olmert and his associates are using the foreign elements of the war as a way to say that the Palestinians are not responsible even though they are the ones carrying out the operations on the ground.

As to the current IDF operation in Gaza, it is fairly clear that whatever accomplishments the IDF may achieve over the next few days, Olmert will call for a retreat rather than enable those tactical accomplishments to become translated into an enhanced strategic environment for Israel. Olmert, whose primary goal as prime minister is to reenact the failed withdrawal from Gaza twenty-fold in Judea, Samaria and Jerusalem cannot enable the Israeli public to see proof on its television screens night after night that the withdrawal was an abysmal failure. The footage that the Israeli public has seen every night since Sunday shows them with absolute clarity that the country was safer when the Israeli communities separating Gaza from Ashkelon and Egypt were still standing and when the IDF was deployed in Gaza protecting southern Israel and keeping the border with Egypt quiet.

Making this point absolutely clear, this week Olmert and Defense Minister Amir Peretz paved the way for new pictures to be seen on the television screens next week. Amidst the military earthquake in the south, the two men repeated their intention to destroy four communities in Judea and Samaria next week. What they refuse to recognize is that while doing so may confuse the public for awhile about whom its real enemy is, the footage from their planned operation will destroy in one fell swoop any accomplishments the IDF may garner this week in Gaza. Pictures of Israeli police and military forces forcibly removing Israelis from their homes will prove to the Palestinians - once again - that their hope to destroy Israel through jihad is well founded.

When one compares Olmert's management of the current crisis with former prime minister Ariel Sharon's management of Operation Defensive Shield in April 2002, the fact that this operation is not serious becomes manifestly clear. On March 29, 2002 Sharon announced the cabinet's decision that precipitated Operation Defensive Shield. In his words, "Israel will act to defeat the terror infrastructure - all its component parts and facets." He further announced that Yasser Arafat "is the enemy." The reason Defensive Shield was a success is not because in its aftermath the Palestinian terror infrastructure in Judea and Samaria was destroyed. Indeed, shortly after it was officially concluded there was a suicide bombing in Rishon Lezion. In fact, the terror never really stopped at all. Defensive Shield was a success because it set the conditions for making it impossible for the Palestinians to carry out an effective terror offensive from Judea and Samaria. During Defensive Shield, the IDF reasserted its security control over the Palestinian towns and villages in the areas, a control it has not relinquished.

Because it remains in control of the area, rather than being forced to kill terrorists from the air, as is done in Gaza where the IDF never reasserted its control, in Judea and Samaria every night, forces go into the homes of terrorists and arrest them in their beds with no collateral damage. And every day, because the IDF is in charge, it is able to enhance its intelligence capabilities. Those enhanced capabilities in turn make it possible for the silent nightly raids that keep Israelis safe in their beds to continue.

But while Defensive Shield's goal was to "defeat the terror infrastructure," the current Operation Summer Rains in Gaza has set as its goal returning Cpl. Shalit to Israel. Olmert and Peretz hope to somehow convince Hamas and Fatah and their bosses in Damascus and Teheran that they are better off coughing up Shalit. They are supposed to think this even though Israel has made it clear that it won't stay in Gaza and is dead set - regardless of the outcome of Summer Rain - on giving them Judea, Samaria and parts of Jerusalem.

On Monday, Meretz leader MK Yossi Beilin told Olmert that his party, like the Arab parties will not support Olmert's plan to retreat from Judea and Samaria and parts of Jerusalem because Olmert plans to retain control of some 5-10 percent of Judea and Samaria for the long haul. Two weeks ago Beilin met with the EU's External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner and elicited from her a clear EU rejection of Olmert's plan to determine Israel's borders. Beilin told The Jerusalem Post that Israel must surrender all the Israeli communities to the Palestinians and sign a deal with Abbas to this effect even if Abbas is incapable or unwilling to uphold any pledge to fight terrorism.

In staking out this position, Beilin is repeating he actions towards then prime minister Ehud Barak after the outbreak of the Palestinian terror war in September 2000. Beilin, who served as justice minister in Barak's government saw that Barak had lost all security credibility with the failure of his peace talks and his inability to take effective actions against the Palestinian terror offensive. Beilin understood that what Barak feared most was the fall of his government and new elections. Because of this, Beilin was able to force Barak to adopt still more accomodationist positions after the outbreak of the Palestinian terror war than he had proposed at Camp David in July 2000. Beilin convinced Barak to agree to the transfer of the Temple Mount and the Jordan Valley to the PLO.

Olmert, like Barak was brought to power as the head of leftist coalition. If Olmert loses that support base, his government could easily fall. In light of this, and given the fact that through his actions and inactions Olmert has made clear that he remains unwilling to reconsider his policy of surrendering Judea, Samaria and parts of Jerusalem to terrorists, it is hard to imagine that his decision to approve the IDF's operations in Gaza and the arrest of Hamas leaders will have any ameliorative effect on Israel's security situation. In short, the limited nature of this week's IDF operations makes clear that Olmert still refuses to get it.

One wonders how valid the issue of occupation is after what Hamas pulled in Gaza. In return for land, all Israel got was daily rocket attacks, kidnappings, and scenes of rioting, burning and looting...all originating from Gaza. Why is this acceptable? Is Hamas more concerned about tending to the needs of their people, or annihilating Israel?

Can anyone blame Israel for hunting down the leadership of Hamas after what they have done? Why doesn't anyone outside of Israel hold Hamas accountable for terrorizing Israeli men, women and children with rocket fire and suicide bombers, and kidnapping and killing their citizens? Why doesn't anyone outside of Israel condemn Hamas for not recognizing Israel's right to exist and for attacking it non-stop?

percy · 07-07-2006, 06:49 PM

Israel's public security minister, Avi Dichter, suggested Friday that Israel is ready to cut a deal that would fall short of a direct prisoner swap,

Dichter said Israel could free some Palestinian prisoners as a goodwill gesture, provided Shalit is released and Hamas stops rocket attacks on Israel. If there is calm, "Israel will need to, after some time, release prisoners as a reciprocal gesture," Dichter said. "Israel knows how to do this. Israel has done this more than once in the past."

He was referring to previous prisoner swaps, usually in deals that free far more Palestinians than Israelis. Privately, Israeli officials have said they did not rule out talks in Shalit's case, either.

http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/ne...ntent=w070761A

Sorry for the lag between responses.Have to make a living.

My hope is that the Hamas have treated the Israeli soldier as humanely as possible. Otherwise they have defeated themselves.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Israel raises possibility of prisoner release if Hamas frees kidnapped soldier

SARAH EL DEEB

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Two weeks into Israel's violent standoff with Hamas, Israel sent conflicting signals Friday on whether it is prepared to swap Palestinian prisoners for a 19-year-old Israeli soldier whose capture by Palestinian militants has touched off a harsh Israeli military campaign.

Israeli troops killed 32 Palestinians in two days of air strikes and artillery barrages, Palestinian officials said. The campaign is aimed at stopping rocket attacks on Israel and pressuring the ruling Hamas movement to release the kidnapped soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit.

Israel's public security minister, Avi Dichter, suggested Friday that Israel is ready to cut a deal that would fall short of a direct prisoner swap,

Dichter said Israel could free some Palestinian prisoners as a goodwill gesture, provided Shalit is released and Hamas stops rocket attacks on Israel. If there is calm, "Israel will need to, after some time, release prisoners as a reciprocal gesture," Dichter said. "Israel knows how to do this. Israel has done this more than once in the past."

He was referring to previous prisoner swaps, usually in deals that free far more Palestinians than Israelis. Privately, Israeli officials have said they did not rule out talks in Shalit's case, either.

Moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said he has won Israeli assurances that it would reciprocate for Shalit's release by freeing some prisoners, as well as Hamas politicians it has rounded up in recent days.

Officials close to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert later said that Dichter's statement did not reflect the views of the government, and that Israel insists on the soldier's unconditional release. However, the government did not issue a formal statement distancing itself from the minister.

Israel does not want to be seen as cutting a deal with Hamas militants, but also does not seem to have a way to free the soldier by force.

Hamas said Friday that Shalit, seized June 25, is alive and being treated well. It also urged Israel to negotiate. The Islamic militant group initially demanded the release of hundreds of prisoners, but then scaled back its demands, seeking freedom for some 150 female inmates and several dozen men serving long sentences.

The internal Israeli debate came as ground troops backed by tanks pursued militants in the streets of crowded Gaza towns, and aircraft struck northern Gaza.

Shalit is believed to be held in southern Gaza, and days after he was seized, Israel launched its biggest military campaign in the coastal strip since ending its 38-year occupation there nine months ago.

The incursion began in southern Gaza, then expanded Thursday to the north as troops seized control of a ribbon of land. On Friday, Israeli aircraft struck Palestinian gunmen in northern Gaza.

Palestinian health officials said a total of 32 Palestinians were killed over two days, including 24 on Thursday, in the bloodiest day of clashes since the renewed fighting began last week. An 11-year-old boy shot in the chest during fighting on Wednesday died of his wounds late Friday, Palestinian hospital officials said.

Despite the Israeli offensive, Palestinian rocket fire from Gaza continued Friday, with militants launching a dozen projectiles toward Israel.

Egyptian mediators have proposed a two-stage deal in which Hamas would free Shalit and halt rocket attacks. In exchange, Israel would halt its offensive and promise to free some Palestinian prisoners in the future.

A Palestinian official close to the negotiations said Israel has agreed to the Egyptian formula, but wants the deal to be confidential, to avoid the impression of a direct prisoner exchange. Hamas wants the terms of the deal to be announced publicly, he said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the talks are confidential.

Israeli cabinet minister Roni Bar-On, who is close to Olmert, said Israel would not negotiate with Hamas over the release of prisoners. However, his comment did not appear to contradict Dichter who also did not call for direct contact with the militants.

The fighting has compounded the misery that has deepened in Gaza and the West Bank since Hamas took power in March. International sanctions imposed to pressure the group to recognize Israel have rendered it unable to pay government salaries, but on Friday, Palestinian officials said about one-fifth of the 165,000 civil servants would receive a small down payment.

Government employees sustain about one-third of the Palestinians. Small down payments have been paid twice before.

roachboy · 07-08-2006, 08:05 AM

Quote:

New UNRWA chief says living conditions in Gaza 'at a new low'

By The Associated Press

More than 200 Palestinians who fled their homes because of an Israeli offensive in southern Gaza sought shelter in a vacant UN school Saturday.

In a sign of the tensions, some of the displaced got into an argument over winning a spot at the shelter and gunfire erupted. Police said three officers were wounded in the melee.

"Living conditions are at a new low. It's a struggle to survive," said John Ging, the new head of the UN Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) in Gaza.

Advertisement

Ging warned that Israel's military campaign, prompted by the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier two weeks ago, has lead to a humanitarian crisis. "Water, food, electricity, sanitation; these are the problems. The situation doesn't get more basic than that," he said.

On Saturday, UNRWA oversaw the transfer of 235 people - or 36 families - who were moved from Shouka, a largely Bedouin area close to Gaza International Airport, to an elementary school in the southern town of Rafah.

Arriving with few possessions, the Bedouins crowded around a UN truck in the school's courtyard to receive mattresses. One group of men made tea in the courtyard, using a small gas canister.

"We fled our home near the airport because of tank fire and air fire. At one stage we were told by Israelis over a loudspeaker at night to leave our homes for our own safety," said Jihad Abu Zakkar, 45, the father of six children.

He said his children screamed through the night, and the family left home in the morning under a white flag.

Umm Issam, 50, said her family of seven left home every night in the past week to sleep under a tree, further away from the fighting. Issam said she decided to seek UN help when she realized her husband, who is ill, could no longer walk such distances each night.

The UN gave other Bedouin families who have livestock 18 tents to set up nearby so they could watch their cattle and sheep.

Israel launched its military offensive two weeks ago, after Hamas-allied militants kidnapped an Israeli soldier in a cross-border raid. Southern Gaza's long-closed airport was one of the first positions Israeli forces and tanks occupied. Gaza's borders with Israel and Egypt have been largely closed during the crisis.

The closure and the destruction of Gaza's only power station by the Israeli air force have led to a humanitarian crisis in the area, said Ging, the UNRWA chief.

He urged Israel to open supply routes at crossings such as Karni in southern Gaza, where he said 235 containers of U.N. food were waiting to cross.

He said the border closure also was preventing the United Nations from shipping its empty containers out of Gaza to be refilled and returned.

The Israeli military had no immediate comment

source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/735959.html

the israeli incursion really needs to stop.
there is no justification for this kind of collective punishment.
note in the above that some 200 containers of food are still being blocked from entering gaza
the main power station remains out of commission.

there really is no possible justification for this kind of action.

Nimetic · 07-08-2006, 05:39 PM

Thanks. Oddly I feel better after reading that article. What a strange world we live in.

Xazy · 07-09-2006, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/735959.html

the israeli incursion really needs to stop.
there is no justification for this kind of collective punishment.
note in the above that some 200 containers of food are still being blocked from entering gaza
the main power station remains out of commission.

there really is no possible justification for this kind of action.

Before the incursion there was about 500 rockets fired in to Israel from Palestine in the past year.

The attack on the post that caused the incursion was led by Hamas, which is the organization that heads the Palestenian government (elected by the people there).

Now would you not consider that a declaration of war, in any other country?

If Hamas wants to run a government, they have to stop being terrorists first. You can not with one hand assault a country daily and expect the other side to sit there and not respond ever.

What has Palestenians done since Israel a year ago left their territory, leaving them free to rule themselves? On the very first day that they left, they fired rockets into Israeli towns. That is not settlements, but pre-1967 territory, non 'contested' land. How much have they built, and grown, err wait no they dig a tunnel and Hamas terrorists (somehow different then the Hamas government, so it is not an act fromt he nation, though I have yet to figure this out), attack a military base, and capture a soldier, and hold him hostage for hundreds of prisoners in an exchange.

Simply the war that Palestenians are waging has nothing to do with occupation. At some point you have to say enough is enough, Palestine is run by terrorists and they will not disarm them, and they will not govern them, so you have to hit back.

dlish · 07-10-2006, 11:32 PM

xasy..

hit back? hit back at who though? the whole palestinian population? just cos george bush is a total dick doesnt mean all americans are total dicks. get my point?

Xazy · 07-11-2006, 07:17 AM

If the population elects a terrorist organization, in their 'democratic' process... If the government continues to allow terrorist organizations to work, and shoot hundreds of rockets daily. They continue to not only not disarm, but train new terrorist cells, what should a country do? Israel gets heat if they close the border completely, and that does not stop them from trying to dig and attack,to shoot.

Imagine if your town was getting shot at with rockets daily. And the minute you try to defend yourself, you get yelled at. Sorry but if you have a terrorist government, participating in ground assault on a neighboring country. Rocket attacks on the neighboring country. Kidnapping of government people of a neighboring country (this being a soldier, they also murdered a civilian as well), how long would you accept it as being norm. After all it is not the 'palestenian population' they only elected the terrorists. The country accepts them and honors them as martyrs.

Sorry while I feel bad for the average citizen, the government is to blame, they have to stop acting as a terrorist organization. They have to disarm the militants. They have to build a country, but they do not seem to want that.

So I understand your point, but the problem is that your point does not work, over all, since it does not solve the terrorist attacks and the fact that they are governed by a terrorist organization that is dedicated to the destruction of Israel). I am sorry I am mistaken, they do not even recognize Israel right to exist as a nation.

ObieX · 07-12-2006, 04:28 AM

Wel it looks like Hezbollah thought it would be a good idea to capture some Israeli soldiers too. They then brought them back into Lebanon and the Israeli's went right on in after them. Something tells me this is going to get a lot worse before it gets any better.

Quote:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsAr...US-MIDEAST.xml

Israel calls Hizbollah capture of soldiers act of war

By Karamallah Daher

MARJAYOUN, Lebanon (Reuters) - Hizbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers and killed up to seven Israelis in violence on either side of the Lebanese border on Wednesday, further inflaming Middle East tensions.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert described the Hizbollah attacks as an "act of war" by Lebanon and promised a "very painful and far-reaching" response.

Two Lebanese civilians were killed and five people wounded in retaliatory Israeli air strikes after Hizbollah announced it had captured the Israelis.

Israeli ground forces crossed into Lebanon to search for the captured soldiers, Israeli Army Radio said. Hizbollah and the Lebanese authorities said there was no large-scale incursion.

Israeli troops have not struck deep into Lebanon since they withdrew from a southern border strip in 2000 after waging an 18-year war of attrition with Hizbollah's Shi'ite fighters.

Israel is already engaged in an expanding military offensive in the Gaza Strip launched after Palestinian militants captured a soldier in a cross-border raid on June 25.

"Fulfilling its pledge to liberate the (Arab) prisoners and detainees, the Islamic Resistance ... captured two Israeli soldiers at the border with occupied Palestine," the Syrian- and Iranian-backed Hizbollah said in a statement.

"The two captives were transferred to a safe place," it said, without stating what condition the soldiers were in.
A senior Lebanese political source said Hizbollah was willing to discuss exchanging prisoners held in Israel with the two Israeli soldiers captured on Wednesday. A Hizbollah spokesman refused to comment.

"TANK DESTROYED"

Hizbollah said later it had destroyed an Israeli tank that had entered Lebanon after its cross-border raid, inflicting casualties on its crew. Al Jazeera television said a total of seven Israelis had been killed in Wednesday's border violence.

Defense Minister Amir Peretz said Israel held the Lebanese government responsible for the two soldiers' fate because it let Hizbollah operate freely against Israel from its territory.

"Israel sees itself as being free to employ any means it deems fit, and the army has been instructed accordingly," he said in a statement, hinting at a broad military response.

Hizbollah, the only Lebanese faction to retain its weapons after the 1975-90 civil war, is also a political party with 14 members in the Beirut parliament and two cabinet ministers.

Israel began calling up reserve troops, signaling a large-scale campaign to retrieve the two soldiers, Israel's Channel 10 television said.

In Cairo, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State David Welch condemned what he called a "dangerous escalation" and called for the release of the Israeli soldiers.

The Israeli medical rescue service ZAKA said three Israelis were killed and eight wounded in the Hizbollah attacks.
Hizbollah earlier fired dozens of Katyusha rockets and mortar bombs at Israeli border posts and a town. Israeli gunners hit back with artillery fire near four Lebanese border villages.

Israeli planes bombed three bridges in southern Lebanon, killing two Lebanese civilians and wounding four civilians and a soldier, Lebanese security sources said.

EMERGENCY CABINET MEETING

Olmert called a special cabinet session for 7 p.m. (1600 GMT) to discuss further military action.

"It is an act of war by the state of Lebanon against the state of Israel in its sovereign territory," he told a news conference.

"We are already responding with great strength ... The cabinet will convene tonight to decide on a further military response by the Israel Defense Forces," Olmert said, threatening "very painful and far-reaching" action.

Hizbollah supporters set off fire crackers and distributed sweets in the streets of Beirut after the Islamist group issued its claim. Similar scenes were reported across Lebanon.

In Gaza, Israel targeted Hamas guerrilla commanders in an air strike that killed nine Palestinians and destroyed a building where the militants were believed to be meeting.

The Israeli military said the air raid wounded Mohammad Deif, leader of the governing Hamas's armed wing. A spokesman for Hamas's Izz el-Deen al-Qassam Brigades denied Deif was hurt.
It coincided with an armoured sweep into the central Gaza Strip, part of an offensive aimed at freeing captured Israeli corporal Gilad Shalit and halting cross-border rocket fire.

His seizure by Hamas's armed wing and allied fighters prompted Israel to launch its first ground attacks in Gaza since quitting the territory last year. More than 65 Palestinians have been killed so far in the Gaza operation.

Israel has rejected calls from Hamas for a prisoner swap for the 19-year-old tank gunner, whose seizure has triggered the worst fighting between Israelis and Palestinians since 2004.

(Additional reporting by Nidal al-Mughrabi in Gaza, Dan Williams at Kissufim and Jeffrey Heller in Jerusalem)

© Reuters 2006. All Rights Reserved.

Mobo123 · 07-13-2006, 07:18 AM

[COLOR="Yellow"]PLEASE REFRAIN FROM THE USE OF RACIAL SLURS TO DESRIBE PLAYERS IN SITUATION[/COLOR]

Anybody seen the price of crude this morning? With this wideniing of the war, crude is going to skyrocket and the stock market is going to get hit hard. Gold will increase in value though.

Just return those dammed soldiers and be done with it. It's the 1% of the arab population that is fucking up the lives of the ordinary palestinians, israeli,lebanese, syrians.

Stop the missle attacks, the tunneling, recognize Israel and make peace. Why is that so goddammed difficult!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Israel isnt going anywhere. When are these fucking people going to realise that?

roachboy · 07-13-2006, 07:38 AM

Quote:

RACIST STATEMENT REMOVED

perhaps because the idf shares something of your racist view of palestinians, and of arabs in general.
perhaps because it is understood that racism directed against arabs is somehow ok.
i do not know where you get the idea that being a racist is ok, mobo: apparently you acquired it somewhere.
maybe you should give this some thought.
then i would advise you give this some more thought before you post more racist drivel here.

Mobo123 · 07-13-2006, 11:02 AM

I apologize for the use of that offensive term. All i see is such trouble that has such a simple solution. The whole situation just makes me so angry because, if the arab countries would simply recognize the right of israel to live in peace and stop shooting rockets into israel and capturing soldiers, everything could be solved. 99% of all people in all the countries simply want to live in peace and raise their families. But so long as the syrian govt continues to support those groups, peace just cant happen.

Listening right now to the Syrian ambassador on CNN. He was asked why Damascus supports Hamas, FAtah, Hezbollah, etc etc etc. Of course he denied that those organisations even exist. And that of course Syria has no ties to any organisation or groups that fire rockets into Israel on a daily basis.

He completed avoided answering a direct question whether the rockets fired into Haifa were done by Hezbollah or some other militant group. Listening to this guy, he seemed to imply that israel shot their own rockets themselves into Haifa.

abaya · 07-13-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mobo123

if the arab countries would simply recognize the right of israel to live in peace and stop shooting rockets into israel and capturing soldiers, everything could be solved.

Loaded words:
"simply"
"the right"
"stop shooting rockets"
"everything... solved"

Through the tone and vocabulary of your post, I am not convinced that you have a good grasp of how very, very complicated this whole situation is. If you did, I am not sure if you would dare say that anything is "simply" solved in the Middle East (or anywhere else, for that matter). People don't start shooting rockets across borders just for fun; they have their reasons, and the reasons are not simple. People will also not simply stop shooting rockets and suddenly realize, out of the blue, that "hey! we've been wrong for the last 60 years! let's all shake hands and sing kumbaya."

Hey, for our part, why can't we "simply recognize" that Palestine had "the right to live in peace," before Israel came into the picture? That's their perspective, and is it really so much less reasonable than yours? Why not at least entertain their feelings, to try and understand why the fuck people have been so pissed off for 60 years? That's the only way that dialogue could possibly lead ANYwhere.

In any case, it is all one big clusterfuck. There are no easy solutions, and there is no ONE group to blame. Please do not make such claims.

powerclown · 07-13-2006, 05:24 PM

"We will have peace when Arabs love their children more then they hate us."

--Golda Meir, Israeli Prime Minister, 1969

Mobo123 · 07-13-2006, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

"We will have peace when Arabs love their children more then they hate us."

--Golda Meir, Israeli Prime Minister, 1969

Amen. Forgot about that statement. Well done powerclown

dlish · 07-14-2006, 12:09 AM

okay...

being of lebanese heritage myself i ask myself how the israeli government can get away with the murder of innocent people, whilst the entire world and the 'champion of peace' (aka the USA) actually condone such blatant acts of war.

so i ask the likes of powerclown and mobo one question.

lets take the scenario and justify what israel has done.

so some wacko group on the border with israel kidnaps 2 soldiers and holds them hostage to be swapped for other prisoners, putting national security at stake and the lives of every lebanese national not to mention the hundreds of thousands of holiday makers at stake..and yes that includes my wife and her family are there in lebanon on a holiday shes has been talking about since the day i met her....

so israel decides that hesbollah practically uses the national airport as some sort of base, that all the ports are used to smuggle arms, so israel decides to block all ports coming into the country, the infrastructure like runways and bridges which are vital to the economy of a nation recovering from 15 years of civil war are supposedly fair game.

and all Bush has to say is that israel has a right to self defence and that syria is to blame? i dont know if the whole world is oblivious to this, but this is what i call WAR! unjustified attacks on a democratically elected govenment which doesnt support terrorism (as is the case of hamas) is unacceptable to any decent human being.

i compare bushs' blessings to the blessings the US gave saddam to invade kuwait back in the 90's...i wonder what will prevail...

anyways back to my point....

so if say the USA or another group from within the USA..say the CIA took the nationals of another country hostage, prisoner etc, without the knowledge of another country...in a military operation or otehrwise, would that be justified? and if not then does the country who wants their citizens back have the right to bomb infrastructure in the US?

take guantanamo for example... illegally held prisoners...held under false pretenses.....or maybe the secret rendering of terrorism suspects by the CIA...can a country that objects to the detention of their citizens have the right to attack the USA and its infrastructure based on the same justifications that israel has used against lebanon?

just a few thoughts.....all posts welcomed.

06-28-2006, 06:50 PM	#2 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Personally, I hope they plow the land with salt, but that's just me. Until the Palestinians show a willingness, let alone an ability, to govern themselves, they shouldn't get any benifit of the doubt. And electing a terrorist organization to run the government doesn't count. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

06-28-2006, 06:50 PM	#3 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	I think we'll be right back to where we were before the Israelis started moving out of settlements. If the Palestinians don't want to play ball, well, the Israelis are going to end that real fast. I believe they will probably forcibly relocate them, but I find it hard to believe that they're going to 'kill everyone there.' __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

06-28-2006, 06:59 PM	#4 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I don't think they'll "kill everyone there" either. However, between this (if it actually happened), and the raid where two soldiers were killed and one was kidnapped, something should be done. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

06-28-2006, 07:00 PM	#5 (permalink)
soccerchamp76 Go Cardinals Location: St. Louis/Cincinnati	CNN.com has nothing of any chemical attack of sorts reported. Reuters is the only source thus far. __________________ Brian Griffin: Ah, if my memory serves me, this is the physics department. Chris Griffin: That would explain all the gravity.

06-28-2006, 07:07 PM	#8 (permalink)
Gatorade Frost Rookie	Well, those who won't leave can be made to leave. Unless the Palestinians start shooting at the Israelis it could go relatively smoothly, but then agai n, I can understand why the Israelis would have an itchy trigger finger with people blowing themselves up and se tting off IEDs. Hopefully if they do move back into the land they already have it'll happen without a war, but I don't suspect we'll be that lucky. If there is a war, I don't think it will be a largely Middle Eastern affair, just Israel and Palestine with obviously the secret influences behind Palestine, but I don't believe it will be an open war between all of the ME and Israel. If it is, well, I'm sure it'll lead up to war with Iran which would be a shame since it's too soon for that if you ask me. __________________ I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well." Emo Philips

06-28-2006, 07:06 PM	#7 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	If it was a real chemical attack this would be all over the news. Claims it was a chemical warhead is much different than a chemical warhead attack. If it happens, Israel will unleash the dogs like after the Olympic affair. Only this time they'll have other countries to hold accountable (/cough syria/iraq/iran).

06-30-2006, 02:23 AM	#9 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	bogus if u ask me..a bit like that iraqi information minister claiming all sorts of rubbish during the start of the iraqi war. what i find more disturbing is that israel is practically given the green light by the US to rampage into gaza and knock out infrastructure affecting millions of people in the name of 'fighting terror'. all this without a whimper from the west. all this for one soldier. somebody tell me one IDF soldier is worth more than a million palestinians to israel and the rest of the world. surely israel has a right to 'defend itself', but this i find is way too heavy-handed to be a knee jerk reaction, but rather its a calculated operation by israel. their objective..hmm im not sure yet....just a gut feeling... __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

06-30-2006, 06:03 AM	#10 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I don't see anything at DEBKAfile, and I would expect them to print it even if mainstream media didn't. __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

06-30-2006, 09:19 AM	#11 (permalink)
Mojo_PeiPei Kiss of Death Location: Perpetual wind and sorrow	I find no fault in Israel's "knee-jerk reaction". Hamas, being the elected government of the Palestinian people, must be held accountable when it's militants tunnel into Israel, kill 2 soldiers and kidnap another. Or maybe they could consider the halting of daily rocket attacks on Israeli positions. Both actions equate to an act of war. And you are right it is calculated; why does that matter? You have a terrorist organization elected into public office, and they refuse to abandon their terrorist operations and aspirations. With the elections in Palestine, Hamas and the Palestinian people at large were put in the driver seat of the car, by themselves, the UN, the US, the World at large, they need to stop making excuses and buck up, they have nobody to blame but themselves. __________________ To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

06-30-2006, 09:42 PM	#12 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	if the israelis have a qualm with hamas, then so be it. but to annihalate infrastructure that was barely there to begin with and debilitate a nation for the sake of making a point against the legitimately elected government albeit a terrorist organisation is totally wrong. im sure not all palestinians voted for hamas, so lets not treat them all as if they did. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

06-30-2006, 10:32 PM	#13 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	So where does attacking civilian infrastructure to make a point fall on the terrorism continuum? Just to be clear, i think there are elements on both side who only exist to draw out the conflict.

07-01-2006, 08:28 PM	#19 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	Host, the problem with what you are asking is that I, for one, have grown up in an environment that has supported open thought far more then it is over there. So, if I were over there and that happened, I would have enough pride in myself and desire for self-preservation of myself and my family that I would vote for the group that was more likely to support peaceful resolutions to the conflict, and therefore reduce the likelihood of injury coming to my self/family. However, from my present view, it seems to me that this conflict is likely to end with one group being completely eliminated as a political entity, either through peace and assimulation (ha!) or through force to the point of genocide. I think that, despite both sides sharing the blame for much of what has happened, the Palestinians have shown a complete lack of willingness and ability to work with, not just Israel, but the whole world, to find a solution, and so they get no sympathy when Israel retaliates to legitamite acts of war. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

07-01-2006, 10:53 PM	#20 (permalink)
Mobo123 Insane	The reason why the Israeli's attack infrastructure is simple, basic military strategy that's been in practice for thousands of years. For example: Sherman's drive through the south to Atlanta. Sherman's men destroyed everything in their path; homes, twisted railroad ties (bowties), burned cotton crops, freed any slave they ran into, killed as many people as they could. Why? Because once you finally demoralize the people, the common ordinary people, the ones who ultimately put those leaders in power, you will create massive discontent against the the government THEY put in place. So, by attacking the palestinian infrastructure, the IDF is essentially waging war against the Hamas government. My opinion? If that 19 yr old kid isnt returned alive, every single Hamas leader, doesnt matter where they are, are going to die. and every single Hamas leader KNOWS THAT. Hamas knows and believes that threat. Plus they absolutely know that it's not an empty threat. Israel has targeted terrorist leaders before; they WILL do it again. I guarantee that Hamas leadership are on their knees praying to Allah that whoever kidnapped that kid returns him alive. Israel has held back at this point for only one reason: The White House told them not to do it. Bush doesnt want an escalation in the middle east because greater unrest will result in higher gasoline prices here at home. With the mid-term elections coming up soon, higher gas prices would virtually gaurantee the loss of the Republican-controlled congress and senate. Remember, without US support, there IS no Israel. Period. There is not one country on the face of the earth that likes or wants Israel to exist. I'll end this diatribe with a joke i heard recently, courtesy of Jay Leno. Q: Why was Moses dumb? A: Because after wandering the desert for 40 years, Moses chose to settle on the only piece of land in all of the middle east that DOESNT have any oil.

07-01-2006, 11:44 PM	#22 (permalink)
host Banned	sorry, Seaver....I should not have painted your comments wiith tthe same broad brush that I used to repond to Mojo or djestudo. djestudo, I agree that it may not be possible for people not raised in that area of the world to behave as viiolently oor to react as irrationally as Israelis and Palestinians have. What I cannot understand iis the assumption of too many that individual Palestinians with no personal history of violent or terrorist acts (the vast majority), and only a recent history of votiing in democratic elections, can be held equally responsible for violent attacks against Israelis, as Israeli political and miilitary leaders are held responsible. Some here have even indicated that the majoriity of ordinary Palestinians are assumed to be terrorist supporters who deserve to be on the receiving end of any violence that the leaders of the sovereign state of Israel decide to send in their direction.....while official acts of war that reign indiscriminately against Palestinian civilian population are inappropriate to criticize. The story of the bullet "lesson" in Palestinian 'kindergartens" helps quite a bit to remove a POV that indiviidual Palestinians aree much less culpable than Israeli leaders are. Can anyone who accepts that "put a bullet in a Jew" story, consider that, even today, much of the state of New Hampshire stiill does not fund or offer "kindergarten"? Folks in an economically devasted and resource starved place like the West Bank and Gaza are fortunate to have kiindergarten as the norm there, though. Did the Palestinian version of the U.S. dept. of Education, design, distribute and fund the kindergarten bullet curriculum? Even today, Hamas is known to have riival iinternal factions of varying weak or strong support for terroriist tactics. There is also a documented and bitter politiical struggle playing between Hamas and what remains of Arafat's political organization. So...how does the Palestinian who simply tries to provide for his family in the midst of all the upheaval, receive so much scorn and so liittle sympathy from some of you, while you reserve sympathy and support for Israeli leaders who order their soldiers to destroy access to electricity and clean water to hundreds of thousands in the desert during the hottest season of the year? You obviiously believe that the average Palestinian, just scraping to survive, is more culpable for not making a personal effort to stop a history of suicide bombers who were not commanded or dispatched by a transparent, organiized central authority, than U.S. elected officials in DC who have the authority and the resources to lower crime in DC and to slow iillegal Mexican border infiltration to a trickle, but don't. You don't seem to hold any authority to the high standard of performance that you hold a collection of poverty striicken violence ravaged Palestinians to. You certaiinly don't hold Shiite supreme cleriic Sistani to the standard of culpabiility that you assign to the Palestinian public's obligation to influence the end of terrorist acts against Israel. Don't you thiink that Sistani could do more to influence hiss followers to help end the insurgency and save lives of Ameriican troops? How do you come to assign so much blame to powerless individuals who have been stateless for so many years that you weigh their suspected culpabiity for terrorism on a much higher scale than you assign to leaders who we all know have the power and resources to effect reduction in violence, criime, terrorist acts, and border infiltration, but don't?

07-07-2006, 06:49 PM	#27 (permalink)
percy Addict	Israel's public security minister, Avi Dichter, suggested Friday that Israel is ready to cut a deal that would fall short of a direct prisoner swap, Dichter said Israel could free some Palestinian prisoners as a goodwill gesture, provided Shalit is released and Hamas stops rocket attacks on Israel. If there is calm, "Israel will need to, after some time, release prisoners as a reciprocal gesture," Dichter said. "Israel knows how to do this. Israel has done this more than once in the past." He was referring to previous prisoner swaps, usually in deals that free far more Palestinians than Israelis. Privately, Israeli officials have said they did not rule out talks in Shalit's case, either. http://www.macleans.ca/topstories/ne...ntent=w070761A Sorry for the lag between responses.Have to make a living. My hope is that the Hamas have treated the Israeli soldier as humanely as possible. Otherwise they have defeated themselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Israel raises possibility of prisoner release if Hamas frees kidnapped soldier SARAH EL DEEB GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) - Two weeks into Israel's violent standoff with Hamas, Israel sent conflicting signals Friday on whether it is prepared to swap Palestinian prisoners for a 19-year-old Israeli soldier whose capture by Palestinian militants has touched off a harsh Israeli military campaign. Israeli troops killed 32 Palestinians in two days of air strikes and artillery barrages, Palestinian officials said. The campaign is aimed at stopping rocket attacks on Israel and pressuring the ruling Hamas movement to release the kidnapped soldier, Cpl. Gilad Shalit. Israel's public security minister, Avi Dichter, suggested Friday that Israel is ready to cut a deal that would fall short of a direct prisoner swap, Dichter said Israel could free some Palestinian prisoners as a goodwill gesture, provided Shalit is released and Hamas stops rocket attacks on Israel. If there is calm, "Israel will need to, after some time, release prisoners as a reciprocal gesture," Dichter said. "Israel knows how to do this. Israel has done this more than once in the past." He was referring to previous prisoner swaps, usually in deals that free far more Palestinians than Israelis. Privately, Israeli officials have said they did not rule out talks in Shalit's case, either. Moderate Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas said he has won Israeli assurances that it would reciprocate for Shalit's release by freeing some prisoners, as well as Hamas politicians it has rounded up in recent days. Officials close to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert later said that Dichter's statement did not reflect the views of the government, and that Israel insists on the soldier's unconditional release. However, the government did not issue a formal statement distancing itself from the minister. Israel does not want to be seen as cutting a deal with Hamas militants, but also does not seem to have a way to free the soldier by force. Hamas said Friday that Shalit, seized June 25, is alive and being treated well. It also urged Israel to negotiate. The Islamic militant group initially demanded the release of hundreds of prisoners, but then scaled back its demands, seeking freedom for some 150 female inmates and several dozen men serving long sentences. The internal Israeli debate came as ground troops backed by tanks pursued militants in the streets of crowded Gaza towns, and aircraft struck northern Gaza. Shalit is believed to be held in southern Gaza, and days after he was seized, Israel launched its biggest military campaign in the coastal strip since ending its 38-year occupation there nine months ago. The incursion began in southern Gaza, then expanded Thursday to the north as troops seized control of a ribbon of land. On Friday, Israeli aircraft struck Palestinian gunmen in northern Gaza. Palestinian health officials said a total of 32 Palestinians were killed over two days, including 24 on Thursday, in the bloodiest day of clashes since the renewed fighting began last week. An 11-year-old boy shot in the chest during fighting on Wednesday died of his wounds late Friday, Palestinian hospital officials said. Despite the Israeli offensive, Palestinian rocket fire from Gaza continued Friday, with militants launching a dozen projectiles toward Israel. Egyptian mediators have proposed a two-stage deal in which Hamas would free Shalit and halt rocket attacks. In exchange, Israel would halt its offensive and promise to free some Palestinian prisoners in the future. A Palestinian official close to the negotiations said Israel has agreed to the Egyptian formula, but wants the deal to be confidential, to avoid the impression of a direct prisoner exchange. Hamas wants the terms of the deal to be announced publicly, he said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the talks are confidential. Israeli cabinet minister Roni Bar-On, who is close to Olmert, said Israel would not negotiate with Hamas over the release of prisoners. However, his comment did not appear to contradict Dichter who also did not call for direct contact with the militants. The fighting has compounded the misery that has deepened in Gaza and the West Bank since Hamas took power in March. International sanctions imposed to pressure the group to recognize Israel have rendered it unable to pay government salaries, but on Friday, Palestinian officials said about one-fifth of the 165,000 civil servants would receive a small down payment. Government employees sustain about one-third of the Palestinians. Small down payments have been paid twice before.

07-08-2006, 05:39 PM	#29 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	Thanks. Oddly I feel better after reading that article. What a strange world we live in.

07-10-2006, 11:32 PM	#31 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	xasy.. hit back? hit back at who though? the whole palestinian population? just cos george bush is a total dick doesnt mean all americans are total dicks. get my point? __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

07-11-2006, 07:17 AM	#32 (permalink)
Xazy People in masks cannot be trusted Location: NYC	If the population elects a terrorist organization, in their 'democratic' process... If the government continues to allow terrorist organizations to work, and shoot hundreds of rockets daily. They continue to not only not disarm, but train new terrorist cells, what should a country do? Israel gets heat if they close the border completely, and that does not stop them from trying to dig and attack,to shoot. Imagine if your town was getting shot at with rockets daily. And the minute you try to defend yourself, you get yelled at. Sorry but if you have a terrorist government, participating in ground assault on a neighboring country. Rocket attacks on the neighboring country. Kidnapping of government people of a neighboring country (this being a soldier, they also murdered a civilian as well), how long would you accept it as being norm. After all it is not the 'palestenian population' they only elected the terrorists. The country accepts them and honors them as martyrs. Sorry while I feel bad for the average citizen, the government is to blame, they have to stop acting as a terrorist organization. They have to disarm the militants. They have to build a country, but they do not seem to want that. So I understand your point, but the problem is that your point does not work, over all, since it does not solve the terrorist attacks and the fact that they are governed by a terrorist organization that is dedicated to the destruction of Israel). I am sorry I am mistaken, they do not even recognize Israel right to exist as a nation.

07-13-2006, 07:18 AM	#34 (permalink)
Mobo123 Insane	[COLOR="Yellow"]PLEASE REFRAIN FROM THE USE OF RACIAL SLURS TO DESRIBE PLAYERS IN SITUATION[/COLOR] Anybody seen the price of crude this morning? With this wideniing of the war, crude is going to skyrocket and the stock market is going to get hit hard. Gold will increase in value though. Just return those dammed soldiers and be done with it. It's the 1% of the arab population that is fucking up the lives of the ordinary palestinians, israeli,lebanese, syrians. Stop the missle attacks, the tunneling, recognize Israel and make peace. Why is that so goddammed difficult!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Israel isnt going anywhere. When are these fucking people going to realise that? Last edited by Cynthetiq; 07-13-2006 at 08:04 AM.. Reason: remove the invective wording.

07-13-2006, 11:02 AM	#36 (permalink)
Mobo123 Insane	I apologize for the use of that offensive term. All i see is such trouble that has such a simple solution. The whole situation just makes me so angry because, if the arab countries would simply recognize the right of israel to live in peace and stop shooting rockets into israel and capturing soldiers, everything could be solved. 99% of all people in all the countries simply want to live in peace and raise their families. But so long as the syrian govt continues to support those groups, peace just cant happen. Listening right now to the Syrian ambassador on CNN. He was asked why Damascus supports Hamas, FAtah, Hezbollah, etc etc etc. Of course he denied that those organisations even exist. And that of course Syria has no ties to any organisation or groups that fire rockets into Israel on a daily basis. He completed avoided answering a direct question whether the rockets fired into Haifa were done by Hezbollah or some other militant group. Listening to this guy, he seemed to imply that israel shot their own rockets themselves into Haifa. Last edited by Mobo123; 07-13-2006 at 11:04 AM..

07-13-2006, 05:24 PM	#38 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	"We will have peace when Arabs love their children more then they hate us." --Golda Meir, Israeli Prime Minister, 1969

07-14-2006, 12:09 AM	#40 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	okay... being of lebanese heritage myself i ask myself how the israeli government can get away with the murder of innocent people, whilst the entire world and the 'champion of peace' (aka the USA) actually condone such blatant acts of war. so i ask the likes of powerclown and mobo one question. lets take the scenario and justify what israel has done. so some wacko group on the border with israel kidnaps 2 soldiers and holds them hostage to be swapped for other prisoners, putting national security at stake and the lives of every lebanese national not to mention the hundreds of thousands of holiday makers at stake..and yes that includes my wife and her family are there in lebanon on a holiday shes has been talking about since the day i met her.... so israel decides that hesbollah practically uses the national airport as some sort of base, that all the ports are used to smuggle arms, so israel decides to block all ports coming into the country, the infrastructure like runways and bridges which are vital to the economy of a nation recovering from 15 years of civil war are supposedly fair game. and all Bush has to say is that israel has a right to self defence and that syria is to blame? i dont know if the whole world is oblivious to this, but this is what i call WAR! unjustified attacks on a democratically elected govenment which doesnt support terrorism (as is the case of hamas) is unacceptable to any decent human being. i compare bushs' blessings to the blessings the US gave saddam to invade kuwait back in the 90's...i wonder what will prevail... anyways back to my point.... so if say the USA or another group from within the USA..say the CIA took the nationals of another country hostage, prisoner etc, without the knowledge of another country...in a military operation or otehrwise, would that be justified? and if not then does the country who wants their citizens back have the right to bomb infrastructure in the US? take guantanamo for example... illegally held prisoners...held under false pretenses.....or maybe the secret rendering of terrorism suspects by the CIA...can a country that objects to the detention of their citizens have the right to attack the USA and its infrastructure based on the same justifications that israel has used against lebanon? just a few thoughts.....all posts welcomed. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy