Charlatan

As many of you should by now know, the GTA was party to its first arrest of "terrorists" since the FLQ crisis of the early 70s.

All of the talk today in the media was about the sentencing and the aftermath...

I have to say that I was pleased to hear a number of Imams on CBC Radio today denouncing the activities of those involved and calling for the community to investigate the Mosque at which many of the members of the group were members.

I will say however, that I found the presentation by the various police services to be a bit over the top. I am not denouncing the actions they took in terms of the arrests (although I do have some general questions about the sting involving the fertilizer that were not answered) rather I am shaking my head at the massive PR stunt they pulled with the bags of fertilizer and the language that talked in generalities. It just felt like they were laying it on a little thick and whenever that happens, I begin to wonder what they are trying to do.

Are they:
a) giving us a show of force and pizzaz so we can feel safer
b) making noise so the US admin can see that we, in fact, are doing "something"
c) letting us know that like Kiefer Sutherland on 24, they too can do what it takes and do it super-sized
d) over compensating for something that we don't know yet...

Somehow I suspect it is a bit of everything.

At present, the information we have presented can leave no doubt that they were "terrorists" and yet, we don't really have all that much information. How fair is it that they have already been painted with a very large brush and we don't even know what is under the paint?

Part of me (a very large part of me actually) wants to believe that this just as it seems, but another part of me is just plain skeptical.

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MexicanOnABike

oh ya! i just saw this on the news. it's pretty cool. but i'm wondering: was it terrorists making stuff to attack canada or another country? we're not part of the iraq war right?

still, i'm glad they got caught.

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Charlatan

They were allegedly acquiring the materials to make a bomb for locations such as the CN Tower and the Ottawa Peace Tower... I don't think anything else has been positively confirmed (despite the Sun saying the TTC was a target... that was officially denied).

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fresnelly

All reports here say their targets would be within Canada in Southern Ontario - most likely downtown Toronto. The only US connection is a couple of (now arrested) men from Georgia who came up to talk with some of the accused early on.

Charlatan - I did notice in the first press conference, that all the police where in full dress regalia. As you say, it's for all of your reasons I'd say it's working so far. They've done a masterful job of releasing information.

Given the confidence of their allegations, I sure hope they caught the right guys and this doesn't turn into another round of investigative abuses. That would inflame the extremists, demoralize muslim citizens and strain the justice system's credibility.

The last thing anyone needs is 17 more Maher Arars.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/...in594974.shtml

Leto

apparantly this is all home-grown youth under the influence of persuasive oration by disenfranchised older men. the youth get to belong to a movement, the older guys get to hold sway.

And all over I hear Muslims who are upset over the few that link Islam with violence.

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highthief

I thought the police did a good job of releasing information. Obviously, there are certain things that will be held back for trial but the presentation made for easy understanding and good viewing.

This was going to happen eventually (domestic terror cells) and I am glad the police and CSIS are on the ball with respect to these groups.

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Charlatan

I can totally sympathize with those youth (and by youth I mean anyone under 21 in this case)... not in their desire to blow things up and kill people per se, rather their desire to belong to something and to oppose the establishment.

The fire that burns in the stomach of most youth to change things is an age old impulse. It wasn't long ago that I had that fire. The difference is in the type of change and the methods of creating change... not to mention a group of adults adding fuel to the fire and enabling my desire by telling me to blow things up.

While I don't hold the youths innocent, even in their furvour they should know where to draw the line, I do sympathize with the desire to make a difference, make a mark.


Leto, I have heard muslims denouncing these men. I also heard one of the big mucky muck imams on CBC at noon yesterday saying that he and about 50 other Imams came out last year and have been denouncing violence and terrorism for some time... he blames the media for not picking up their message. He claims that they have been out there making noise but no one is listening.

In anycase, he was there denouncing them yesterday.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Sticky

I think that they are also very proud of themselves.
They must have been weorking on this for a long time. In fact the counter terrorism groups around the world have been in high gear since 9/11. It must be exciting for them to make a bust like this for a few reasons:
- They see that their efforts are not being expended for nothing
- They feel like they have done something good
- They caught the bad guys (or who the investigation pointed to being the bad guys - nobody is bad until proven guilty, right)
- And if any of these guys like comparing themselves to Americans favorably: they did it without war.

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highthief

I have zero sympathy for these dogs. Hanging is too good for them if the allegations are half way accurate. They plotted to kill me. And you. And you and you and anyone else who might have been at the TSX or CN Tower on a given day. Your family. Couching their desire to kill us, our friends and families, in some sort of noble terms of fostering change is, IMO, wrong.

If guilty, I hope they rot.

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Charlatan

Don't get me wrong. If they are guilty, they should get the maximum coming to them.

I was trying to examine and understand where the desire to do something like this come from... especially when you are a teenager raised in Canada.

Most teenagers are fucked up. It doesn't take much to exploit the rage and roiling hormones that make up most teenagers. I was not trying to make them seem noble. They are just the opposite if all of this is true. What I am trying to say is that in their own minds they can see themselves as doing "good" work. It's sick and twisted but it isn't far from the youth who go to "anti proverty" protests. They are angry with the system and want change. Most of them won't be blowing up bits of Toronto to do this. They will protest and then work within the system to bring change. That's what youth do. I have no sympathy for the adults whatsoever.

The fact is, that if the youth involved are guilty of this, they may have been under the influence adults BUT they are ultimately reponsible for their actions (just as a raging teen that smashes daddy's car is responsible for the family he kills when he gets in an accident while drag racing).


While I am not completely surprised by the appearence of alleged terrorists in our midst I am still generally surprised. These people are generally prosperous. Living in a country where they are free to practice their religion. Canada's foreign policy is almost non-existant. We support the war on terror but not Iraq. Our precense in Afghanistan is generally one that is viewed as a positive one.

If these men are guilty, like I said, throw the book at them.

My worry is that it will play out just like the Air India bombings.

I can agree with that. It just seemed a bit over the top. It set off my bullshit detector. Like I said, I am mostly on the side that wants to take this at face value. It's the niggling doubt that is making me ask some questions.

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Daval

I am really shocked by this, not really because there was a plot foiled, or that there are groups like this operating, but because on of the suspects lived one street over (i'm in Mississauga) from me. I was home when a roadblock was set up on the street and when we walked over to see what was going on (figured it was a pot bust), the cops said it was just 'executing a warrant' which I found odd that they would shut down part of the street to do. I got there a bit late so didnt see anyone with machine guns or snipers, but did see a swat type vehicle.

This shit happened within 200 metres of my house, my family, my children. I know exactly which house it was and I've seen the people before. Its scary. It feels personal now.

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highthief

Yup, I found out yesterday that they were using a warehouse unit on Gorham in Newmarket, about 3 minutes from our new house, as base for some of their activities. These guys were widespread.

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