Illegal Immigration

[98MustGT]

I have my thoughts what are yours?
BTW - I live in San Diego.

[stonegrody]

Why don't you get it started by stating your thoughts? It might be a better way to spark conversation...

[jb2000]

How can we focus on illegal immigration without talking about our immigration policy in general? When so much of debate hinges on what is or isn't legal, and what should or shouldn't be, making the debate specifically about illegal immigration kind of loads the forum before anything gets started.

[98MustGT]

Originally Posted by stonegrody

Why don't you get it started by stating your thoughts? It might be a better way to spark conversation...

Good Point however I need a alittle time cause I am at work.

[Rekna]

if they are going to keep giving us all their people they should give us their land too........

[Zeld2.0]

Its one of those double edged swords. On the one hand they make security an issue and well, it's illegal and has those problems attached to it.

On the other hand, without it, there are many many jobs that would not be taken and honestly would hurt our economy a lot.

[98MustGT]

First let me start off by saying the current situation is a mess. Bush's amnesty program is a joke. It seems as though we have three options.

A. Complete open borders
B. Limited Immigration
C. Current status (chaos)

A. Complete open borders - Many in California want this however this would destroy our economy and cause chaos beyond belief.
B. Limited Immigration - Only logical choice to me.
C. Current status (chaos) - How could anyone support this, immigrants and their families are hurt, and US citizens are hurt as well. It seems as though if you break the law long enough you are rewarded.


Limited Immigration
We need to have penalties for employers who hire illegal aliens. We need to have penalties for those who are here illegally. We need 'Guest Visas' for those who want to come to work cause the current status forces the breadwinner (male) to leave his family in Mexico. We need to all be on the same page, be consistent with our policy.

The Matricular card that many want the US to accept is a joke, I found out that card is not accepted in Mexico due to fraud!

Driver license for illegal, I understand the goal is have insured competent drivers but this hidden agenda is open borders, how can we justify rewarding illegal behavior?

Interesting stats -

The illegal-alien population at 2003 stands at least 8 million. Included in this estimate are approximately 78,000 illegal aliens from countries who are of special concern in the war on terror. It is important to note that the 500,000 annual increases is the net growth in the illegal-alien population (new illegal immigration minus deaths, legalizations, and out-migration).

1996 Costs Table from the Huddle Study (assuming 5 million illegal)
Programs (billions)
Public Education K-12 $5.85
Public Higher Education $0.71
ESL and Bilingual Education $1.22
Food Stamps $0.85
AFDC $0.50
Housing $0.61
Social Security $3.61
Earned Income Tax Credit $0.68 (they are getting IRS refunds)
Medicaid $3.12
Medicare A and B $0.58
Criminal Justice and Corrections $0.76
Local Government $5.00
Other Programs $9.25
Total Costs $32.74
Less Taxes Paid $12.59
Net Costs of Direct Services $20.16
Displacement Costs $4.28

All Net Costs $24.44


Mind you most of these costs are placed on California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. The Bush Administration should reimburse these states.

On a personal note I am part Mexican / Asian / Caucasian so don't throw racist remarks back at me. I have Asian relatives who came here with nothing that have assimilated into society and have educated themselves, I have Mexican relatives who have not been so successful, I believe that culture has allot to do with this.

[Zeld2.0]

I don't think it is in so much culture as it is background. I know more Hispanic billionaires/millionaires who made that in the U.S. than Asians who had money before coming (and being mixed and living in LA, theres a lot to see)

Anyways as far as immigration goes... quick fact to note is that if immigration would stop, the U.S. along with most other Western nations (mainly Europe) would decrease in population dramatically.

Halting immigration isn't going to help the nation - I still prefer open borders for people but still with the key mind in security. However, I don't see what you mean by the entire economy would be in disarray and chaos if borders were open.

[Seaver]

We need to have penalties for those who are here illegally.

How do you propose this?

Put them in our overpopulated prisons? There's murdurers getting out within just a few years of their sentencing because they dont have room, I'd MUCH rather have a poor family living in the US than letting murdurers out.

Fines? These people have no money, that's why they're comin over here.

Some sort of Community Service? It'd take lots of police to make sure they didnt just bolt.

I agree with your opinions but I see no way of putting any sort of punishment that makes sense.

[98MustGT]

Originally Posted by Seaver

How do you propose this?

Put them in our overpopulated prisons? There's murdurers getting out within just a few years of their sentencing because they dont have room, I'd MUCH rather have a poor family living in the US than letting murdurers out.

Fines? These people have no money, that's why they're comin over here.

Some sort of Community Service? It'd take lots of police to make sure they didnt just bolt.

I agree with your opinions but I see no way of putting any sort of punishment that makes sense.

What are your thought on deporting them for a penalty, that is what other countries do?

[Seaver]

What are your thought on deporting them for a penalty, that is what other countries do?

I think what you're saying is as a penalty for crossing our borders we deport them back to their country of origin? Sorry if I misunderstand the question.

To answer that, that's what we've been doing pretty much the entire time. The exact same people try dozens of times, and never stop trying until they slip past and embed themselves in the US. Many only try to stay the 9 months to have a baby (who is a full citizen now), and the US will not separate the family so allow them to stay. I live in Texas and many of my friends families have become full citizens this way. That being said I understand and agree to the need for secure borders, but you have to realize these people ARE people. They come from horrid conditions, and only want to come here for work. They dont want to live on welfare, they dont want to come to steal our jobs away at gunpoint. They want to make their lives better, as all of our families in the past, something too easily forgotten by people yelling "they're here to steal our jobs!".

Guess that's my biggest bleeding-heart liberal argument. I dont agree with handouts but to deny the chance to make one's lives bigger IS anti-American.

[Zeld2.0]

Right on, Seaver

[98MustGT]

Originally Posted by Seaver

I think what you're saying is as a penalty for crossing our borders we deport them back to their country of origin? Sorry if I misunderstand the question.

To answer that, that's what we've been doing pretty much the entire time. The exact same people try dozens of times, and never stop trying until they slip past and embed themselves in the US. Many only try to stay the 9 months to have a baby (who is a full citizen now), and the US will not separate the family so allow them to stay. I live in Texas and many of my friends families have become full citizens this way. That being said I understand and agree to the need for secure borders, but you have to realize these people ARE people. They come from horrid conditions, and only want to come here for work. They dont want to live on welfare, they dont want to come to steal our jobs away at gunpoint. They want to make their lives better, as all of our families in the past, something too easily forgotten by people yelling "they're here to steal our jobs!".

Guess that's my biggest bleeding-heart liberal argument. I dont agree with handouts but to deny the chance to make one's lives bigger IS anti-American.

I am kind of torn on this issue, if I Joe Citizen broke the law lets say cheated on my taxes 5 years ago and now was caught and was penalized with jail time I would be seperated from my family as I did jail time however Mr Illegal Alien does not?
It would break my heart to see families seperated or having the whole family moving back to Mexico.

[Seaver]

True MustGT, but you have to look at it in that if they're coming here illegally it means all of their pocessions are included with whatever they cross with. Fining them wont do anything because they have no spare cash. You couldnt deport an infant who is a US citizen who comitted no crime, and you couldnt have thousands of orphans without parents. I agree there should be some sort of punishment but nothing here would fit the relatively victimless crime.

[assilem]

IMHO. I say we give all the illegals from Mexico or South America automatic amnesty. If you are here you are a citizen. That way they are paying taxes, giving back to the land they take from. Then we erect a wall from the Gulf of Mexico to the Pacific Ocean. Thirty feet tall and thirty feet into the ground with a twenty foot buffer zone on either side. With barbed wire and gun towers every mile. If you come close to the wall we blow you away. I guess a couple of warning shots to be fair first. Problem solved.

[Zeld2.0]

Ironically, manning and maintaining such a wall would cost more money than the amount of money taxes get paid from those given amnesty

[jb2000]

I have a hard time with the immigration issue because my fundamental belief in personal liberty and human rights doesn't stop at the border. I don't believe that a Mexican is fundamentally less deserving of rights than Americans.

Ultimately, open borders are the ultimate goal. Do I think that means we should immediately get rid of border controls? No. But each step we take should lead to greater liberty for people on either side of that border. We can do this through a few rational steps:

1) Improvement of conditions here for people. By opening doors to allow immigrants to better themselves and become a more productive part of the system here, we all benefit.

2) Improvement of conditions abroad. Working to ensure labor and human rights are recognized and protected by foreign governments reduces the desparation of those who might seek to get into the US.

[98MustGT]

Originally Posted by Seaver

True MustGT, but you have to look at it in that if they're coming here illegally it means all of their pocessions are included with whatever they cross with. Fining them wont do anything because they have no spare cash. You couldnt deport an infant who is a US citizen who comitted no crime, and you couldnt have thousands of orphans without parents. I agree there should be some sort of punishment but nothing here would fit the relatively victimless crime.

I cannot agree that these are victimless crimes, 95% of murder warrants in Los Angeles county are for illegal immigrants

[BigGov]

Originally Posted by 98MustGT

I cannot agree that these are victimless crimes, 95% of murder warrants in Los Angeles county are for illegal immigrants

Could you please post a source for that information?

[98MustGT]

Originally Posted by BigGov

Could you please post a source for that information?

Sure but we have to wait until tomorrow. We have been bombarded with advertisments on the tele stating those facts. The ad refers to some LA county gov't web site. I will jot that down tonight and we can check it out tomorrow.

[Zeld2.0]

95% of warrants in LA County going for illegal immigrants sounds high... no, extremely high...

Given how many crimes are committed in LA County and how diverse the population is (and how many are citizens), that would be a very small group doing a lot of crimes everywhere.. when in truth, it would be hard to

I'd like to see where those numbers come from given that the last few times I saw warrants out for people, they were very much citizens

[Kadath]

Well, I searched for this information. I found that 95% number several places, but it all seems to come from this article;

"In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens." Link

However, she cites no source for this statistic(also, it is outstanding murder warrants, unsurprising if you think about the fact that it's much harder to track an illegal immigrant than a legitimate citizen). I've found it used in various other webpages, lifted whole from the article, but still no source (not even to the original article in some cases). I would be interested to see where Heather MacDonald got the number, so I emailed the City Journal. I'll let you know if I get a response.

[rukkyg]

Originally Posted by jb2000

I have a hard time with the immigration issue because my fundamental belief in personal liberty and human rights doesn't stop at the border. I don't believe that a Mexican is fundamentally less deserving of rights than Americans.

Ultimately, open borders are the ultimate goal. Do I think that means we should immediately get rid of border controls? No. But each step we take should lead to greater liberty for people on either side of that border. We can do this through a few rational steps:

1) Improvement of conditions here for people. By opening doors to allow immigrants to better themselves and become a more productive part of the system here, we all benefit.

2) Improvement of conditions abroad. Working to ensure labor and human rights are recognized and protected by foreign governments reduces the desparation of those who might seek to get into the US.

So what you're saying is your take on illegal immigration is to make it not illegal?

[DelayedReaction]

http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy...0401220906.asp
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_...gal_alien.html

I'm having trouble finding a primary source, so it might just be circular referencing. Here are the statistics being quoted:

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

Another article also mentions that an estimated 8 million immigrants live in this country illegally. Using the tax rates found here (http://www.savewealth.com/taxes/rates/single/), assuming they all made $6000 that would produce around $4.8 billion in additional tax income. I find it hard to believe a wall would cost that much to construct, given that the total budget for INS is around $5 billion or so.

I think America should be a land of opportunity for those who do not violate our laws. Obviously we're not going to be totally successful in blocking illegal immigration, but our borders need to be much more secure than they are now.

[roachboy]

several points:
on the general question at hand:

1. if you want to stem the flow of undocumented workers to the states, get employers to stop hiring them.

2. but in these days of cowboy capitalism, employers find it to be just find to drive wages down to the lowest possible level (cost-cutting, dontcha know) so am not sure how you would do the above exactly.

3. undocumented status for workers has political consequences as well--it more or less guarantees an atomized, powerless workforce, one not likely to organize itself because of the ways in which undocumented status is understood. this works out for the maintenance of political control in a number of cali-cities.

4. it is also typical of these days of cowboy capitalism that people "concerned" about the matter of undocumented workers would be more inclined to blame the workers than look to firms, which drive the economic cycle that draws people to find work here in the first place.

5. it is also interesting that no attention seems to be paid to the outflows of this population--it is not obvious that undocumented workers come to stay in the states in any number statistically speaking. but it seems not to matter for the--largely rightwing--ideologues who manipulate the political matters surrounding this issue to create a sense of beleagured national solidarity, which is crucial to mobilizing people in a rightwing direction.

on crime stats:

6. police stats on this kind of issue should be viewed with great suspicion, particularly those from la, given the glorious history of racism institutionalised by that department.

7. even if the stats cited above are not problematic (an argument would have to be made for that--i do not buy the idea a priori), the logic behind them would seem to militate for an easing or elimination of undocumented status--which would in principle tend to drive wages up--which would reduce the levels of poverty--and would make these workers part of a political process for defense of their own interests--which would perhaps eliminate some of the incentives to organize for their own defense on other grounds.

it seems to me that you cannot have it both ways--if you are inclined to uncritically cheerlead for this variant of capitalism, you have nothing to say about undocumented workers as such--who are human beings drawn to the states for work because employers find it in their economic interests to hire them. conversely, if you have some kind of problem with undocumented workers, it forces you directly into a critique of this variant of capitalism--if it does not, then what you have to say is incoherent.

[98MustGT]

Here is the link
http://www.nationalreview.com/dunphy...0401220906.asp

Here is the paragraph...
In Los Angeles, 95 percent of the outstanding murder warrants are for illegal aliens, as are perhaps two-thirds of the 17,000 outstanding felony warrants.

[roachboy]

it's funny how conservative media has developed its own, completely self-referential littlr world. check out the article link by the national review, which forms the source of the material you cite, 98--look at whoi/what the "manhattan institute" is. it confirms my point (5, above)

[98MustGT]

Originally Posted by roachboy

several points:
on the general question at hand:

1. if you want to stem the flow of undocumented workers to the states, get employers to stop hiring them.
I agree 100% throw a few CEOs behind bars and that will stop real fast

2. but in these days of cowboy capitalism, employers find it to be just find to drive wages down to the lowest possible level (cost-cutting, dontcha know) so am not sure how you would do the above exactly.
Have severe penalties for illegal hiring

3. undocumented status for workers has political consequences as well--it more or less guarantees an atomized, powerless workforce, one not likely to organize itself because of the ways in which undocumented status is understood. this works out for the maintenance of political control in a number of cali-cities.
I do not understand?

4. it is also typical of these days of cowboy capitalism that people "concerned" about the matter of undocumented workers would be more inclined to blame the workers than look to firms, which drive the economic cycle that draws people to find work here in the first place.
I agree, we should not throw all the blame on the workers, 'you make me laugh with the cowboy capitalism remark!

5. it is also interesting that no attention seems to be paid to the outflows of this population--it is not obvious that undocumented workers come to stay in the states in any number statistically speaking. but it seems not to matter for the--largely rightwing--ideologues who manipulate the political matters surrounding this issue to create a sense of beleagured national solidarity, which is crucial to mobilizing people in a rightwing direction.


You might check out this site http://www.capsweb.org/
it is a mix of environmentalists / population control freaks

on crime stats:

6. police stats on this kind of issue should be viewed with great suspicion, particularly those from la, given the glorious history of racism institutionalised by that department.
Doesn't sound like you are a real supporter of the LAPD! Until recently they had a black police chief for several years

7. even if the stats cited above are not problematic (an argument would have to be made for that--i do not buy the idea a priori), the logic behind them would seem to militate for an easing or elimination of undocumented status--which would in principle tend to drive wages up--which would reduce the levels of poverty--and would make these workers part of a political process for defense of their own interests--which would perhaps eliminate some of the incentives to organize for their own defense on other grounds.

it seems to me that you cannot have it both ways--if you are inclined to uncritically cheerlead for this variant of capitalism, you have nothing to say about undocumented workers as such--who are human beings drawn to the states for work because employers find it in their economic interests to hire them. conversely, if you have some kind of problem with undocumented workers, it forces you directly into a critique of this variant of capitalism--if it does not, then what you have to say is incoherent.

You bring up some good point Roachboy

[Sargeman]

Originally Posted by Rekna

if they are going to keep giving us all their people they should give us their land too........

Actually, you've already taken our land. We're just coming back to reclaim what is ours, the land, the jobs, and a little interest.... your daughters


That was just a joke BTW, or was it.....


Seaver, I liked a lot of what you said, however, I have to disagree with you on this point:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Many only try to stay the 9 months to have a baby (who is a full citizen now), and the US will not separate the family so allow them to stay.

Most legal/illegal immigrants are males that come here and usually work for a year or two or until they get caught. They try to save up enough money to send back home either to their mom or their spouse. Much of that money is in return saved so that when they have enough and have been caught enough times they can get legal documentations for them and if enough is left for their spouses and families.

If not enough money is left they do find ways of bringing their families with them. In that time period of being here many do have intercourse and do have babies that are then born in the US. Thus making the babies US citizens. But in many cases they (the illegal aliens) will of been here for a few years.

[Willravel]

Bumped for relevance.
From another thread:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I'll field this one.

I have worked with Mexicans for years, and thus I have as good an understanding as any gringo. Many Mexicans are too poor to make a living in Mexico, so they HAVE to come up into the South Western states in order to support their families. They take jobs that Americans cannot take and make wages that no one else can live on (well under minimum wage). Many are homeless, many starve just so that they can send money home, most are treated as a second class citizen (like a slave). The only difference between illegal immigrents are slaves is that slaves were at least given places to live, whether it was decent shelter or not. I've never seen a landscaping company or vinyard with shacks set up for the illegal Mexican immigrints working there.

They can leave if they want, but they doom themselves and their famimilies, as the Mexican econemy simply cannot support the whole populace.

One should also consider the great service they render for OUR econemy.

[stevo]

If the illegals get amnesty I want amnesty on the next 5 years of federal income taxes. Perhaps I will plan some demonstrations and school walk-outs, since that appears to be the way we change laws we don't like.

[pan6467]

Bumped from here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=103421

Originally Posted by willravel

I'll field this one.

I have worked with Mexicans for years, and thus I have as good an understanding as any gringo. Many Mexicans are too poor to make a living in Mexico, so they HAVE to come up into the South Western states in order to support their families. They take jobs that Americans cannot take and make wages that no one else can live on (well under minimum wage). Many are homeless, many starve just so that they can send money home, most are treated as a second class citizen (like a slave). The only difference between illegal immigrents are slaves is that slaves were at least given places to live, whether it was decent shelter or not. I've never seen a landscaping company or vinyard with shacks set up for the illegal Mexican immigrints working there.

They can leave if they want, but they doom themselves and their famimilies, as the Mexican econemy simply cannot support the whole populace.

One should also consider the great service they render for OUR econemy.

Edward James Olmos was in town a while back showing a movie called "Walkout". It was an exceptional movie, and he had a lot to say about it. I would reccomend it to anyone who is interested.


I know that the Mexican American community is strong enough to do this themselves. I *hope* that this is simply a protest motivated by civil rights, an d not some PR campaign.

Will, I love ya, and we agree on many issues. However, ILLEGAL is just that ILLEGAL. Once you cross over into this country ILLEGALLY you have no rights.

I am tired of people making excuses for ILLEGALS to be here, there is no excuse.

Yes, they take jobs.... and it is a concern but there are deeper concerns for me.

They are:

The BILLIONS they cost taxpayers for healthcare, housing, the criminal system and so on.

Hell, I posted here the law Congress and the president signed giving $1 BILLION to SouthWestern hospitals (that claimed they were going broke treating illegals) for FREE healthcare to illegals.

They are freaking ILLEGAL and they get FREE healthcare??????? I work my ass off, go to school and when I got treated I have my credit destroyed and sit on $25,000 worth of bills????? WTF, is that fair to me a TAXPAYING LEGALLY BORN US CITIZEN??????

Is it fair that some of these ILLEGALS get to use tax payers services? Where I work we have an ILLEGAL who has been here 25 years and he abused the system to get "detoxed" once a month for about 6 months consecutively (until he was banned). He would stay, get medicated, sleep, eat and leave. So the taxpayers of Summit County and Akron paid close to $2500 for this ILLEGAL, who paid NOTHING.

This same ILLEGAL uses our drop-in as his own little hotel and demands Detox every night. HE'll go to the hospitals in Akron and claim he needs "detoxed" and they call us having a doctor tell us to treat him (until the Dr. finds out his past). How much is that costing taxpayers??????

And this is in Akron, Ohio, I can only imagine how bad it is in border states. It's no wonder services like these are closing down because of lack of funds.

How about crime??????

In Hartville, Ohio a farm that works closely with a Jam/Jelly company hired ILLEGALS. 3 of them got trashed held up a convienence store shot and killed 2 adults and 3 kids. These ILLEGALS were caught, but instead of facing trial for murder they got deported back to Mexico WITH NO FINES and were back in the US a year later. If you need proof I'll scan the newspaper article for you.)

I know for a fact having lived in Phoenix, this is nothing new.

WTF?????????

Legal immigration is what this country was founded on and is our life blood. But ILLEGAL immigration needs to be stopped.

I have no qualms against a SHOOT TO KILL policy on the border. I figure we shoot and kill a couple illegals trying to come over.... that will deter a few of the 1000's that come over daily.

They have it so bad in Mexico, then they need to stay the fuck in Mexico and find ways to change their own damned country and not come over here, live off taxpayers and cry how we don't accommodate them or that we are prejudiced against them, or that we don't bow down and kiss their asses and wipe them as they shit all over our country.

BTW come to Akron, I'll show you the "shacks" Yoder's farms has set up for ILLEGALS.

As for "slaves" They fucking CHOSE to come here ILLEGALLY....... WTF are we supposed to do baby their fucking asses, further erode our economy and services and tax dollars to make sure they have the same rights as people who work their asses off and were born here or went through the proper systems and became LEGAL???????

If that's the case, I'll rescind my US citizenship, move to Mexico and come back ILLEGALLY....... Hell, I'd get free healthcare and people more worried about how I, as an illegal am treated than I do now as a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN. I'd get more and pay no taxes?????? Hell yeah sign me up for that.

[pan6467]

I'm sick of the BS that "Illegals are a good thing because they take jobs no one else will and for less pay. Without them our economy would be shit."

Gee, let's see...... Billions in tax dollars for education, healthcare, use of our tax supported programs while not putting a cent into the system, while LEGEL tax paying citizens are denied these programs because they may make too much (yet not enough to truly afford the service), we see these services going bankrupt, taxes increasing, the ILLEGALS saying we need to bow down to their needs.

I just don't understand what part of ILLEGAL people (including employers and the government) do not understand. These people are ILLEGAL, they have no rights, they have no right to be employed, recieve healthcare, go to our schools, use our tax paid services. NADA, ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, THE GREAT "0". These are people committing a crime and need to be treated as the criminals they are.

If I go into a grocery store and I steal $100's of food because I am dirt poor and need to feed my family, when I get caught am I not going to jail?

Don't prices go up to make up for the store's losses I cost them?

Am I not going to have to make restitution?

No matter what the reason, am I not still breaking the law and costing people far more money?

Then why the fuck are we even having this discussion? Illegal immigrants are doing just that to our country.

ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL PURE AND SIMPLE CASE CLOSED.

[xepherys]

pan, you're 100% dead on correct!

The recent marches regarding immigration reform agitate me. Personally I think the reform is FAR to "nice" to the illegals. If I just walked into Russia and set up shop, I'd expect to get my ass deported at least, or inprisoned at worst. You can't just do that shit. It's annoying in it's utter contempt for our country, and it's ridiculous that bleeding hearts out there think these CRIMINALS and MISCREANTS (which is what they are, not because of their heritage or background, but because they are BREAKING THE LAW) deserve so much love and compassion. Bullshit! Bullshit! Bullshit!

[stevo]

need a solution to the border? two words: land mines

[Mojo_PeiPei]

For the first time ever I'm 100% with Pan and Xephyrs.

[JustJess]

1. Land mines? Really? Hm. I wonder how you'd feel about that if it'd been YOUR ancestors that everyone wanted to kick out. Do you think they were all here perfectly legally? Have you not noticed the increasing bureacracy and bullshit hoops people have to jump through to become citizens of our country?

2. Of course laws are supposed to get changed with protesting and walk outs. What else is the point of protesting if there are never any results? It's a basic tenet of American principles!

3. The laws need CHANGING. Do you have any idea what it's like? ANY IDEA? Between the government's pisspoor planning and inability to streamline any sort of processing, and the plethora of ridiculously bad legal advice, people are getting screwed left and right, no matter what.

4. If you made FOUR DOLLARS AN HOUR, you would qualify for free health care and no taxes too. Except all those sales tax items, of course.

5. Ask the businesses that hire illegals if they would rather hire legally. Ask 'em if they want to start paying at least the (ridiculously low) minimum wage. Ask if they want to pay taxes and unemployment insurance and FICA on legals rather than paying nothing to illegals.

Let me quote a recent article I wrote on this very subject:

Immigration and YOU

For the immigration nerds in our audience (okay, just me):

Trying to immigrate to the United States is a motherfucker. There are several ways to go about it, but most take a really long time and tend to be very expensive.

1. Getting authorization to work in the US.
a. Working visas. H-1B - you must have at least a BA and be working in a job that requires a BA. Must prove YOU'RE so wonderful, we can't get an American with your qualifications. J-1, trainee visa, lots of restrictions, may have a requirement to return to your home country for 2 years. F-1 is for students only, though you can get permission to work for "training purposes". Very limited amount of time, however. L-1 is for people working in a foreign branch of a multi-national company (UK sends an employee to their US branch). E3 visas are like TN's for Australians only. New category, so some kinks are still being worked out. TN visas are for NAFTA treaty members (Mexico, Canada). They have to be within certain job categories, but can be renewed indefinitely. B1/B2 visas are tourist/business visas. You're either visiting for fun, or a business meeting - not getting paid at all.
b. You can also receive work authorization through the green card process (aka Lawful Permanent Resident card process). More on this later.

Once you are approved, most of them require you to go through the US embassy/consulate in your country, and get a Visa Stamp. Some, you only need the stamp if you're traveling out of the US, so if you get a new H-1B visa approved while you're already here, you can just start working. On a J-1, however, you have to return to your home country, get the visa stamp, and return before you can begin to work. It's annoying, really. This part can take from 3 days to several weeks/months, depending on where you're from. They tell you it's just processing delays... but it's because you're from Jordan. Really.
The Green Card Process itself:
Now, once you're here and you want to stay forever because gee, it's so nice here (and comparatively speaking, I'm sure it is)... now you can apply for that LPR you've all heard so much about.

You CAN apply from an H-1B, F-1.

You CANNOT apply from a J-1, TN, E3, or B1/B2, as those are approved predicated on the idea that you're only here temporarily. That's a key phrase, people... I've seen J1's denied because the applicant didn't make their Temporary Status clear - didn't show enough ties with the home country. It's a tetchy thing.

Now... if you apply for that LPR through your spouse, it often goes more quickly, but you have to prove you are married for looooove, not to get them into the cooouuntry. However, if you happen to be from somewhere like Syria... it's gonna be awhile. Talked to someone today about a couple who's been trying for over 2 years. Yikes. My brother and his lovely German wife only had to wait less than a year.

Applying for the LPR sponsored by your workplace... is complicated. And this is where I see most people get screwed. You have to prove that a: your skills are unique to you; b: the job requires the skills that you have; and c: the workplace can't find anyone else like you (up to actually advertising for YOUR JOB and interviewing people!!). We go through this to a minor extent with H-1B's and E-3's, but not to actually posting in the NYTimes. This can take years and years, depending on what you do.

The doctors? Eh, a year or so. The janitor? 10 years so far.

There are other ways to go - asylee status if your country hates you, what you stand for, is in the middle of war and/or genocide (especially on your people), etc. Asylee status can be tough to prove, but not always. Once you have it, it's yours... but it is dependant on whether your country is in the same state as when you left. Sometimes, they can take that asylee status away. But it does confer automatic employment authorization, which is nice (but get the card anyway to be nice to your employer, most employers don't know that!).

Once you apply for the LPR, you will become eligible to apply for an EAD (employment authorization document). A few words on this.

JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE ELIGIBLE, DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE AUTOMATICALLY AUTHORIZED. Ahem, sorry.
Receipt notices do not confer any kind of employment authorization on you whatsoever. NONE.
YES, IT REALLY DOES TAKE THEM 90 DAYS TO PROCESS YOUR EAD RENEWAL. Don't believe them (the people at your interview or the USCIS) when they tell you "you'll have your green card before then", or "it won't take 3 months"... because that's when you get screwed. Just apply for it. It's not worth saving $185 and then find yourself on unpaid leave because you have no authorization to work anymore.

Now imagine someone who just needs a job, has very little literacy, and has no help with this process attempting to become a legal resident of the United States. And before you start making cracks about foreigners not being able to read/write in English, let me remind you that 1: there is no Official Language in the US (and a good thing for many of our forebears); and 2: Many born Americans are unable to read/write enough to handle a process like this.

So, in essence, get off your highhorses. We live in a glass house here, and we shouldn't be so quick to throw stones.

[stevo]

Originally Posted by JustJess

1. Land mines? Really?

Yes, really. As opposed to a manned wall with armed guards shooting to kill, or some other prohibitively expensive solution. We have the landmines made and ready so the costs would be small. We'd only need to mine the border maybe 300 yards wide. Land mines would give the same result as border guards with shoot to kill orders for a fraction of the price.

Originally Posted by JustJess

I wonder how you'd feel about that if it'd been YOUR ancestors that everyone wanted to kick out. Do you think they were all here perfectly legally? Have you not noticed the increasing bureacracy and bullshit hoops people have to jump through to become citizens of our country?

Yeah, they were all here legally, seeing how they didn't break any laws to get in.

Originally Posted by JustJess

2. Of course laws are supposed to get changed with protesting and walk outs. What else is the point of protesting if there are never any results? It's a basic tenet of American principles!

We vote. The whole point of protesting is to miss school and work and maybe feel as if they are taking part in something big.

Originally Posted by JustJess

3. The laws need CHANGING. Do you have any idea what it's like? ANY IDEA? Between the government's pisspoor planning and inability to streamline any sort of processing, and the plethora of ridiculously bad legal advice, people are getting screwed left and right, no matter what.

4. If you made FOUR DOLLARS AN HOUR, you would qualify for free health care and no taxes too. Except all those sales tax items, of course.

5. Ask the businesses that hire illegals if they would rather hire legally. Ask 'em if they want to start paying at least the (ridiculously low) minimum wage. Ask if they want to pay taxes and unemployment insurance and FICA on legals rather than paying nothing to illegals.

Now imagine someone who just needs a job, has very little literacy, and has no help with this process attempting to become a legal resident of the United States. And before you start making cracks about foreigners not being able to read/write in English, let me remind you that 1: there is no Official Language in the US (and a good thing for many of our forebears); and 2: Many born Americans are unable to read/write enough to handle a process like this.

So, in essence, get off your highhorses. We live in a glass house here, and we shouldn't be so quick to throw stones.

So your solution is amnsety? Fine. then I want amnesty from the next 5 years of tax payments. Why should someone who BROKE THE LAW to get here receive amnesty and I shouldn't?

[flstf]

Originally Posted by Seaver

To answer that, that's what we've been doing pretty much the entire time. The exact same people try dozens of times, and never stop trying until they slip past and embed themselves in the US. Many only try to stay the 9 months to have a baby (who is a full citizen now), and the US will not separate the family so allow them to stay. I live in Texas and many of my friends families have become full citizens this way. That being said I understand and agree to the need for secure borders, but you have to realize these people ARE people. They come from horrid conditions, and only want to come here for work. They dont want to live on welfare, they dont want to come to steal our jobs away at gunpoint. They want to make their lives better, as all of our families in the past, something too easily forgotten by people yelling "they're here to steal our jobs!".

I think the key idea you express is that they are coming from poor conditions and want a better life. The problem I have with amnesty and/or open borders is when is enough, enough? The immigration pressure from the south is just going to keep getting worse, they have a huge population explosion and horrible poverty.

What do we do when the illegal number goes from 10 million to 50 million or 100 million? If we don't secure the border then eventually we have no separate country.

[pan6467]

Originally Posted by JustJess

1. Land mines? Really? Hm. I wonder how you'd feel about that if it'd been YOUR ancestors that everyone wanted to kick out. Do you think they were all here perfectly legally? Have you not noticed the increasing bureacracy and bullshit hoops people have to jump through to become citizens of our country?

2. Of course laws are supposed to get changed with protesting and walk outs. What else is the point of protesting if there are never any results? It's a basic tenet of American principles!

3. The laws need CHANGING. Do you have any idea what it's like? ANY IDEA? Between the government's pisspoor planning and inability to streamline any sort of processing, and the plethora of ridiculously bad legal advice, people are getting screwed left and right, no matter what.

4. If you made FOUR DOLLARS AN HOUR, you would qualify for free health care and no taxes too. Except all those sales tax items, of course.

5. Ask the businesses that hire illegals if they would rather hire legally. Ask 'em if they want to start paying at least the (ridiculously low) minimum wage. Ask if they want to pay taxes and unemployment insurance and FICA on legals rather than paying nothing to illegals.

Let me quote a recent article I wrote on this very subject:


Now imagine someone who just needs a job, has very little literacy, and has no help with this process attempting to become a legal resident of the United States. And before you start making cracks about foreigners not being able to read/write in English, let me remind you that 1: there is no Official Language in the US (and a good thing for many of our forebears); and 2: Many born Americans are unable to read/write enough to handle a process like this.

So, in essence, get off your highhorses. We live in a glass house here, and we shouldn't be so quick to throw stones.

So what are you saying, the 1000's of LEGAL immigrants, that come into our country LEGALLY and have worked hard to do so are idiots because it would have been easier for them to just come in ILLEGALLY.

I have no qualms about LEGAL immigration, and yes, I can show you the Ellis Island papers from my great grandmother. All my ancestors came LEGALLY, and when they got here most were persecuted.... Irish/German/Italian/Dutch/Welsh is my background. hmmmmm None in that group were discriminated against in anyway, were they now?

So exactly what high horse am I on? That my ancestors came here legally, learned english, didn't cry injustice because the government and the communities refused to turn everything into "their" language, that my ancestors became proud citizens of the US assimilated and worked hard to make sure their progeny were "American"?

Laws changed and made it harder to become LEGAL..... so what?

YOU want me to believe it's ok to still break the law because it isn't fair to dirtbags who cross over ILLEGALLY and have no desire to assimilate into our country or to even attempt to become LEGAL citizens?????

Jess, ya know I agree with ya more than I disagree and I am fairly liberal. But my liberal views end right about here.

ILLEGAL = ILLEGAL PERIOD, END OF STORY.

Again, if it is so fucking horrid in Mexico maybe these people should be revolting against their own government and working harder to improve their country.

Instead, they choose they easy way and ILLEGALLY come into our country sponging off our system, using our tax dollars and expecting us to wipe their asses as they shit on our country.

Maybe our wages would go up and those out of work could find jobs (oooo yeah they take jobs no one else wants except maybe college kids or people who would truly like to work and get a start, or teens saving for college, or people who need to make some extra money in this economy that is booming because we hire illegals to do work "no one else will" as they destroy our tax based services.)

Not naive, I have seen this first hand and it is wrong.

Maybe if we didn't hire ILLEGALS and prices went up, more people would have to raise issue about the wage gaps between the workers and the CEO's. Maybe just maybe the economy would truly start healing if we turned ILLEGALS away.

And the people that hire ILLEGALS should be fined heavily and put into jail for conspiracy to defraud the government from it's taxes (wages and such) and perhaps if we made the punishments stiff enough they won't be hiring these ILLEGALS.

And the bleeding hearts that like lambs follow blindly saying "ILLEGALS deserve a chance", should talk with the families of people killed by illegals who watched the illegals get "punished" by being deported and coming back illegally.

No matter how you slice it, it's wrong.