stevo

Members of the TFP that frequent politics like to post news stories from the MSM they feel show what is going on in Iraq and what we are doing. But when right-leaning members like myself refute the stories or at the very least ignore them, we are blind sheeple regurgitating talking points. Well, I would like to tell you a story of why I don't believe the American press, why I put no weight into the stories that roll off the AP and into the NYT. I'll tell you why I think they have an agenda and their stories hold no water.

A friend of mine recently graduated from the Naval Academy in Annapolis, MD (alongside my brother, might I add). He just received his Master's degree. His course requirements for the degree required him to take several classes overseas. He visited the middle east, egypt, turkey, and several other countries. He studied in Japan. While he was in the middle eastern countries he was suprised at how well he was received by everyone. He was suprised by the support he actually saw for what the US is doing in Iraq from the locals. He was suprised by what he saw on the news. He told me that in middle eastern countries the news includes more good things than bad about what is going on in Iraq. there are nes stories about how much better life is getting for iraqis, about schools opening and hospitals getting equipment and doctors that are helping to save lives. There are news stories that tell about the new iraqi army and police force gaining more strenght and independece. Stories you won't see on american TV or read in american news papers. he had a wonderful time there.

He was required to take a class at the American University in Japan (I apologize for not remembering the exact name, I'll talk to him later today and correct the name). The class was in Hiroshima, and the day he arrived coincided with the 60th anniversary events of the bombing of hiroshima. When he stepped off the plane he was greeted by protesters. not japanese protesters, but american ones. They handed him an anti-war t-shirt and welcomed him to the protest, no knowing he was there to study.

He also met many japanese people. Every one was gracious and respectful of his American Citizenship and did not think less of him because of his military ties.

But the people that suprised him the most were his classmates and the american protesters. Often one in the same, but some protesters were not in his class. His instructor taught them, in a museum dedicated to anti-americanism, that the true freedom fighters were the 9/11 hijackers and that america deserved what it got. (now this instructor is an american professor from an american university, stateside) Now, the class was open for debate, but he was the only one debating agaisnt the instructor. Every other one of his classmates was on the anti-american side. for 2 weeks he countered everything the instructor said, and on more than one occasion he was spit on. literally spit on by his classmates. They called him a baby killer and a blood thirsty tyrant.

What suprised him was that the people he was taught in america that hate him - the victims of "american imperialism" - the middle eastern folks, the japanese - were respectful, polite, and genuinely nice to him, while his fellow countrymen treated him like garbage, spat on him and called him names.

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I here this story and I hear stories like it from other people I know who have been over seas and have been victims of anti-american protests. I hear their first-hand accounts and then I read what the MSM tells us. Which one am I going to believe? Am I going to believe my friends who have seen first hand what we are doing in Iraq and how we are thought of in the middle east, or am I going to believe a story written by a person I've never met, who more than likely does not like bush or the war in iraq? Am I going to believe a friend of mine who I know has no agenda other than just finishing his class and graduating or am I going to believe a journalist, whose agenda I don't know? After hearing what goes on in the news in the middle east and comparing that to the news I see on Comcast channel 40, which should I believe? When my friends come back from over seas and they tell me not to watch the new here because it is wrong, should I tell them they are wrong because thats not what the news says?

I ask of you to not be so beholden to what the NYT says and not be so sure of yourselves. Because you think something is right, doesn't make it so. You claim to be progressive and open-minded, the open you mind and allow for the possibility that what you read in the press every day might not be the whole story. Open you mind to the idea that maybe those "GOP talking points" actually have some merit and are not empty babble put in the way to stiffle debate. Maybe this "conservative mind-set" is because we see things differently, and accept that there is more to the story than what Wolf Blitzer tells me.

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Poppinjay

Let me get this straight, you know a military member who was spat on by a bunch of ex-pats in a class in Japan, who was received well by Japanese and Middle Easterners, and therefore you use this example to ignore what the mainstream media reports?

Why?

Can you link a report in the media that says that we are hated by the Japanese? Or that we are hated by the middle east? We’ve had ties to those two regions of the world for a very long time and do an enormous amount of trade with them.

I don’t get your rant.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

stevo

The point of my rant is the people that hate us are not the people that see first hand what we do, but the americans that listen to their liberal professors and the liberal media. Liberal american college students who think they know what is going on in the world, the ones that think they are right and america is evil. Those are the ones that hate us and those are the ones that gobble up the liberal media's account of what is happening in iraq.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Poppinjay

Can you give some examples of left leaning reports that incite these folks?

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

The_Jazz

Wow, that's viewing the world through rose-colored glasses. I'll certainly conceed that there are members of the far left that dislike American policies and the military, and it's unfortunate that your friend had to experience the worst that some close-minded idiots could dish out.

That said, I've spent a considerable amount time abroad, primarily in the UK, Russia, China and Italy, and I've met lots of "common folk" (which would include me while I'm here in the US btw). When I was in Russia in the summer of 2000 on a train for 3 weeks, I spent lots of time talking politics because most of the Russians wanted to know about Bush and how he could possibly be elected. When I went back in 2003, one guy that I had met basically said that he like me personally but that my government was out of control. And that's the way that I think that most of the world looks at us. Individually, they like Americans but they don't like our government. I don't like the Chinese government (although I have to admit that whenever I go from Eastern Russia into China I always tell myself "now the Chinese know how to run a country." ), but I have several friends over there, a couple of whom work in various government jobs.

Basically, I don't see why the experience of your friend gives you any reason to reject any one news story in the New York Times or the AP or any other American media outlet. The MSM certainly does filter their stories, but believe me, there are lots of anti-American government feelings out there. I have seen it up close, but most people are just too polite to let that skew their view of individual Americans. Can you say the same about how you view Arabs, for instance?

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Ustwo

The key to understanding liberalism I found in one sentance by Frank Herbert (author of Dune etc).

Scratch a liberal find a closet aristocrat.

Amoung liberal 'thinkers' I've never found this to be wrong.

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Poppinjay

That would be so far from what I am, but I know enough to understand that point of view. I think it's about as accurate as saying, scratch a conservative and find a closet fundamentalist.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

stevo

Because what he, and others, tell me doesn't coincide with what is repeated every day in the press. And I would believe what he tells over what "they" tell me any day of the week.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Charlatan

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Seaver

As a Middle Eastern Studies major I'm constantly in the tick of it as far as Iraq and our policies twards that region goes.

What you wouldn't understand at first, is the people that are the most anti-Israel, anti-Iraq war people are white upper class Americans. The people that are most pro-war and anti-PLO are the Muslims that come from the Middle East.

I have a picture (I need to scan) that a buddy accidently took (camera went off when he wasnt ready). In the front is a white kid wearing greasy dreads and a Von Dutch t-shirt with a Red-White PLO scarf around his head holding a sign saying "BUSH = HITLER" (my fav. btw), and an Egyption friend of mine just staring in disbelief wearing a business suit.

roachboy

first off, thanks for an interesting thread stevo.
i read through the op a few times---i decided to take it seriously, and once i did that began to have trouble with the logic of it.

it seems that tone is important here---i dont know how to qualify the tone in what follows---dont take it as an attack, rather as questions.

there are a number of points that seem to me crushed into each other in the op.

first, there is the gap that seperates the specific and the general.

this runs in two directions: the anecdotal experiences of stevo's comrade, with all its detail (and without any obvious criteria for generalization) is juxtaposed to its inverse, which would be general narratives of events----that do not and cannot match the density of detail in an individual experience.

from this you can derive a problem that is much more general than what stevo would make of it---that general narratives that link and maybe try to interpret "events" do not and cannot account for the complexity of experiences that unfold at the individual level. seen from another angle, general accounts of events do not really account for them--the create schematics and link them to other data organized in the same way in order to provide a reading of the general drift that links them.

this seems self-evident, a problem of logical or descriptive registers, if you like.
but if the problem is a difference of register--that is a logical problem (difference between types of claims) or a genre problem (how the conventions that shape different types of narrative work to carve up/organize information)----then i dont see how it can be grafted onto a critique of one political style of narrative as over against another.
so while i can see how this might lead one to be suspicious of general narratives as such, i dont see how it provides much of any justification for choices within general narratives--in other words, i do not see how this criticism can be bent around to justify a preference for conservative general narratives and the rejection of others (however you view them politically).

but say you end up in a position of being suspicious of all generalizing narratives--- what can you do?
well, the obvious move is to check and cross check information provided through these narratives and know from the outset what "general" means. this point is developed below, from another viewpoint.

second, i really do not see how you would go about generalizing from your friend's anecdotal experience, stevo, if your main problem is with generalization itself. what it seems that your friend's experience in turkey etc. demonstrated is that these places,like all other places, are complex, that the populations are complex, that there is a great diversity of views within each of them---and that cartoons that substitute for an understanding of this diversity are necessarily limited and are problematic because they are limited.

well obviously....

but if that is a standard you want to apply, it seems to me that the correlate of that would be to push you to thinking about types of ideolgical filters that reduce complexity--in which case i would think that this position would lead you to be really really suspicious of conservative ideology in general--that because the one feature shared by almost all positions articulated within its purview is simplification.

you could counter that in non-conservative filters, nods to compelxity are simple rhetoric, and you'd be right. but the same would hold for conservative filtered information and so you generate an undecibable problem that is resolved by recouse to predispositions. in which case, the entire cirtique you outline of the dominant media gets reduced to a defense of arbitrary committments. no move within generalizing narratives gets you to the specific--all that therefore bullshit--so choosing between them is a matter of chosing which bullshit you like better. i dont know if you wanted to land there, but it seems to me that this is where you land, at one level.

that your friend would find support for the ousting of saddam hussein is not a surprise. that you would repeat this support without providing any account of the motivations behind it seems limited. in other words, it seems that your friend encountered a diversity of positions within largely muslim populations, took from it the elements that brought him a degree of political comfort and thought that was enough. for you, stevo, these anecdotes take on a second-order function as the basis for a demonstration of some "media biais"---a jump that i dont follow.

on the other hand, by not wondering about the diversity of positions that shape such support as he encountered for american actions in iraq (for example), he seems to have simply repeated in his way what you criticize the nyt/ap for doing--treating superficially the diverse experiences of others.
so you do not get out of the problem you set up by relying on your friend's anecdotes of travel in the middle east--you repeat them at another level.

besides, do you really think that tourism provides you with any deep insight into the complexity of thinking in the populations through whcih you, as a tourist, pass?
do you really think that other countries are that transparent, that you or your friend can know them and have a meaningful handle of the whole range of politics. not to speak of political motivations--in the course of tourism? even slow tourism? i dont see how you could possibly believe that.

i am not saying that i doubt your friend's experience, btw, stevo--but i am saying that it does not and cannot function as justification for the moves that you use it for in the op.

the japan story seems to me unrelated logically. i see how you link the two, given that they come from the same source--but logically they are seperate.

but what i really dont get is the conclusion that you draw from the two stories--that there is universal support for bushwar in the world and that only american "liberals" are to blame for the many many problems bushpolicies have encountered---this seems so simplistic as to obviate everything of interest in the op.


secondly, i dont know anyone who positions themselves on the left who accepts uncritically anything from the ny times, the ap wire or other media sources. you may prefer to think otherwise, but that is a political judgement you are making that--again--runs directly counter to the logic of your own post. why is the reduction of complexity ok when it comes to characterizing the positions and experiences of people with whom you disagree politically and not when it comes to instances that function to confirm your political positions?

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

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frogza

I got an email from a friend of mine that is serving in Iraq now, I'm including the info that has to do with this topic.

His group, (please excuse my ignorance of army group names) was attacked by a suicide bomber a few days before I got this email. Despite having seen first hand his friends and peers being hurt by the terrorists opperating in Iraq, his view is still an overall positive one.

I admit that I don't watch the news, so I don't know everything that is being reported. Of what I have heard and seen, the only reporting of positive events I have seen invlove the freedom riders. The Iraq news is liimited to number of deaths and attacks. Maybe the media outlets are limited in the space and time they can dedicate to reporting, so they report what they personally see as important, maybe there is an agenda they are following or maybe I only see the negative because of my low opinion of the media in general. I don't know that I can give a general answer to any of it.

I haven't heard very much of the mean spirited protests, the spitting and calling soldiers baby killers etc. I think that would make me very angry though, and would likely stick out in my mind more than shows of support. My friend who wrote the above paragraph is one of the most gentle, kind and intelligent people I know, it would be horrifying to me to hear someone call him heartless or a mindless follower.

What I'm trying to say is that we generally remember the extremes and unusual before we recall the commonplace. Generally people support and love our troops, even if they dont feel the same way for our troops leaders. So when someone, or a small group of someones, are cruel it stands out more.

I hope my rambling here makes sense, I just needed to share my thoughts on the subject.

connyosis

Well I can say that here in Sweden, that's very true.
With some exceptions, most people I know and talk to have no problem with americans. Your government is another story though...

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trickyy

seriously, no weight? is this just concerning iraq or you don't believe anything at all? what do you think of the christian science monitor? if you can give some examples of sensible "talking points," i might agree. however, i find that most of the arguments are too easily refuted, as they are presented as near-absolutes. we're fighting in iraq so we don't have to fight here...terrorists hate our freedom...save social security...fighting for peace...protect the sanctity of marriage...after a while, it becomes a more about the slogan/mantra than even cursory facts about the topic. i'm not saying talking points are 100% untrue, i just don't like how they often seem to circumvent original analysis and inconvenient details.

i also think the MSM have an agenda. their agenda is to make money and further their individual careers. their agenda is also to bore me with essentially useless information. the most popular news stories involve things like madonna and natalie whatshername, and they don't hesitate to write about them. they also fill space with a lot of other stories that i simply don't care about. dog swims 10 miles to find master. man kills family. bikes might not be safe. it's thankgiving and the airport is full. stamps went up by a cent. man has huge button collection.if you'll recall, all of the media was doing pretty intense cheerleading when the war started. did you also doubt them at that point, or are you newly dissatisfied?

i am fully aware that the news does not present the full story. i'm not sure how many people here take the sources you mention at their word. i would say the fact that many anti-bush topics are started with MSM links are more of a reflection of the posters' views than those of the sources.

what is comcast channel 40, by the way? that's not the same in every city. personally, i've found the "best" iraq news to be from iraqi local broadcasts which are on World Link TV.

tecoyah

As a closet aristocrat I feel it is important to use what small ration of brain I was given to actually take in all the information I can get, and use it to form an opinion that is Mine alone. This leads me to think the OP is in many ways correct, as the MSM does focus on the negatives in Iraq, since it would seem that is what the American people want to hear.
It takes very little research to look up the good things taking place in that country as well, and gain some small understanding of the benefits this invasion has given to the Iraqi people. This is not a Cut and Dry situation by any means, but if one decides to remove the partisan blinders so obvious in this country, they might just see some silver.....lining the cloud of war.

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jwoody

Stop!

Three letter acronyms, a.k.a. TLA.

Carry on...

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nezmot

How fucking rude. (sp. Sentence, Among)

But to the point in hand - stevo, you are right of course. You should approach all the media you're presented with, with some level of distrust - wherever it comes from, and from whoever's mouth it comes from.

When you ask who to believe - the answer should be not to lay your trust entirely in any one place. Every person is an individual - to say that all foreigners love Americans is just as incorrect to say that all foreigners hate Americans. Sometimes a story will put your country and its people in a good light, and sometimes your country and its people will be put in a bad light. Both stories might be just as true as one another. Or false. Pretty straightforward really.

This is why blind nationalism is dangerous (just as dangerous as blind anti-nationalism, or however you decide to label it) and wrapping yourself in the country's flag will make you look just as foolish as wrapping yourself in anyone else's.