Parents and power struggles. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

EULA · 05-27-2005, 04:02 PM

Here's an excerpt by John Holt that I thought was interesting:

Quote:

As a rule we [adults] greatly exaggerate children's interest in power struggles with us. We are so concerned about maintaining our power over them that we think they are equally concerned about taking it away from us. They are very much aware that they are powerless, that we have great power over them. They don't like this, and in a vague way look forward to a time when it may not be true. But they are realistic enough to know that at the moment they are not going to be able to do much to change this. In any case, if they are to any degree healthy and happy, they have other things to do, they are busy living. They don't want to quarrel with us all the time. As long as we don't abuse our power intolerably, or weary the children with our constant struggles to assert it, most of them, most of the time, are willing, perhaps even too willing, to accept it. Most of the quarrels between adults and children that I see are needlessly provoked by the adults for no other reason than to prove what the child never for a minute doubts, that they are the Boss.

How may times, in airports and other places public and private, have I heard this old refrain, to children as young as three or two years old, "When I tell you to come here, you come here, do you understand?" And so, struggling frantically to maintain an authority which was never really in question, we may erode it, bit by bit, until suddenly it is gone, and we wonder in surprise and agony where it went. The child no longer cares. He has felt the sting or weight of our displeasure for so long that he can no longer feel it. We have argued with him so many times about trivia, and when no argument was necessary, that he decides that everything we argue about is trivial, and that we argue only because we like to argue. And then, when there is perhaps something serious to argue about, when we really want--perhaps even the mistakenly--to try to save him from what looks like a disastrous misstep, the lines are down, he cannot hear, his is not listening.

from Freedom and Beyond, pg. 18

Ustwo · 05-27-2005, 04:40 PM

You had an unhappy childhood?

Disk_Pusher · 05-27-2005, 04:55 PM

That was a facinating read - I believe I'll see if I can find that book at the library.

My family, however, was not a fan of words. There was no second round of "come here right now" - there was me being dragged by my overalls to whereever I should have been. It's not the way I'd like to raise my son.

Cartuni · 05-27-2005, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EULA

They are very much aware that they are powerless, that we have great power over them. They don't like this, and in a vague way look forward to a time when it may not be true. But they are realistic enough to know that at the moment they are not going to be able to do much to change this.

This is exactly how I felt as a child. When I read this, one memory immediately came to mind. When I was a child, televisions didn’t have remote controls. I was constantly asked to jump up and change the channel or adjust the volume. I hated it - it made me feel like my parents’ personal slave. But I never questioned it, and I never considered not doing as I was told.

That childhood feeling was always with me when raising my daughter. If I ever asked her to do something for me personally (very rare occurance), it was always phrased as a request, with a ‘please’ attached.

Now that I think about it, to this day I find it very hard to ask anyone to do something for me that I could do myself. Maybe my childhood experience as a remote control had a good result in the long run.

Seeker · 05-27-2005, 06:03 PM

Quote:

"When I tell you to come here, you come here, do you understand?"

I can understand how some people (meaning parents) get carried away with this type of behaviour. I agree with you EULA, this slip in thoughts to a 'authoritarian' type parental aspect can be very damaging, and result in the very context of your quote.

I however made sure that my daughter knew that when I requested something, it was important, and not just because I wanted control.. it was usally for her safety, or because I wanted to share something with her.. even if it was just something fun. I have mentioned in other threads that I did not experience the terrible toddler ages or so far, any rebellion.

Demeter · 05-28-2005, 08:36 AM

There are times when you need a child to listen without question, for the sake of their own safety, or the safety of others.
When a child runs out onto the street, you yell "stop" and expect they will immediately. You don't let the child run where they please to explore their independance.
But 99% of the time, the situation is not so vital as that.
So how do you teach a toddler with no concepts of differenciating circumstances that its okay to not listen to the parents sometimes, but at crucial times you need to adhere.
How doea a child figure that out?
Would it be best to have a compliant child, or a dead one?

Just pondering strategies.

Robaggio · 05-28-2005, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demeter

There are times when you need a child to listen without question, for the sake of their own safety, or the safety of others.
When a child runs out onto the street, you yell "stop" and expect they will immediately. You don't let the child run where they please to explore their independance.
But 99% of the time, the situation is not so vital as that.
So how do you teach a toddler with no concepts of differenciating circumstances that its okay to not listen to the parents sometimes, but at crucial times you need to adhere.
How doea a child figure that out?
Would it be best to have a compliant child, or a dead one?

Just pondering strategies.

Whenever things were crucial (i.e. running out into the street as a toddler), my parents made it very clear that things were serious. They did this through spanking. Not hard spanking, but enough to convey the message in a language a toddler could understand. That language was pain, and the message was "You think this hurts? Imagine what a car would do to you!" The key point here is that the spanking was associated with those rational words. I was able to understand why my parents were spanking me and why the street was bad.

I am entirely thankful that my parents were so tactful with their use of "language". Because of this, I was able to understand words at a much younger age. I was having high-end conversations, no, discussions when most kids were still running out into the street with their parents yelling and screaming after them.

So, I guess to offer you a strategy it would be to spank. Unfortunatly spanking has such a bad reputation these days. It must be done sparingly and in the right situation. Toddlers can't differentiate when you're yelling to stop them from running into the street or to stop misbehaving. The key is to get the toddler to understand that a Street = Bad. The best language to convey that message, for the sake of their own life, is to spank. It depends on the child I suppose. It worked fine for me with no negative effects- I grew up playing bloody and violent videogames, and I was spanked when I did things VERY wrong. Yet, I'm probably the least violent male out of anyone I know- I'm arrogant and lazy, but that's hardly the result of spanking

Lebell · 05-28-2005, 12:28 PM

EULA,

Based on this and our previous conversation, it seems to me that the whole concept of discipline is very black and white to you.

In this article, the writer is talking about "power struggles" without explanation.

But Demeter gave a very good example of a "power struggle" that should never happen.

And here of course is the difference. There are times when a child should listen, no ifs ands or buts, just like there are times a parent should say "no", with no argument or appeal possible.

For example, Sexymama and I take the approach of always saying "yes" unless there is a reason to say "no". You want your friends to stay over? Yes, unless there is a reason for them not to. You want to go swimming today? Yes, unless there is a reason you can't. But just the other day, my 11 year old tried to tell me that because it was her trampoline, she should be able to do something that I had judged unsafe. Uh uh, no way. She also lost trampoline priviledges that day for the attempt, no appeal. And because she knows we will follow through, she knows that if she throws a tantrum or tries to circumvent the restrictions, we will take down the trampoline without hesitation. We do this not out of anger or to maintain our "power", but because we are responsible for her safety and there will be no argument regarding it.

I think that the fundamental difference is that between discipline and consequences and approaching parenting from the angle of a detached parent instead of passionate equals, ie, parents that try to be the kid's "friend" instead of their parent.

raeanna74 · 05-28-2005, 12:34 PM

"He has felt the sting or weight of our displeasure for so long that he can no longer feel it. We have argued with him so many times about trivia, and when no argument was necessary, that he decides that everything we argue about is trivial, and that we argue only because we like to argue."

I think think this is the crucial point here. We really need to balance any criticism or correction with praise and reward. Even if it's just a reward of our pleasure and smile. Tell your child that you appreciate their good behavior. It's hard to remember this part of teaching our children the right way to behave. How will they know the right way if they aren't told they are doing right sometimes. No one likes constant criticism. Everyone enjoys being praised. It's normal for someone to want to behave in a positive way in order to recieve a positive response. We don't have to be a buddy in order to do this.

Demeter · 05-28-2005, 04:03 PM

Robaggio, that one time you ran into the street & your parents spanked you, you could have been killed before your parents had the chance to show you it was dangerous.

We don't show kids pictures of streets & guns & lighters & spank them & say 'bad' to reinforce this thought, because there should be no punishment where there is no bad behavior. and besides, they may associate the spanking with pictures in general.
But if a toddler is brought up to obey Mom & Dad, then a warning could be verbalized as the child goes to touch something forbidden. (Toddler legs are fast & parents might not be in reach) Then everyone could be saved from a terrible incident.
This doesn't need to be done with physical punishments, parents soon learn what will reinforce good bahavior from a child, be it deprevation of a privlidge or a favored toy, time out, etc. No two children are alike and no two children respond to a punishment the same way.
And of course, raeanna 74 has an important point here...
I think think this is the crucial point here. We really need to balance any criticism or correction with praise and reward. Even if it's just a reward of our pleasure and smile. Tell your child that you appreciate their good behavior. It's hard to remember this part of teaching our children the right way to behave. How will they know the right way if they aren't told they are doing right sometimes. No one likes constant criticism. Everyone enjoys being praised. It's normal for someone to want to behave in a positive way in order to recieve a positive response. We don't have to be a buddy in order to do this.

A well loved child is the greatest gift a parent can offer the world.

EULA · 05-29-2005, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

You had an unhappy childhood?

Not really.

Robaggio: My parents spank my siblings and myself for a few years, but it stopped. Unfortunately, it taught my brother that when you're mad at someone smaller than you, it's ok to hit them. My grandma threatened me with the 'fly swatter', and one day, years later, she actually hit me with it. It was shocking. It didn't hurt, but the fact that I was SO bad that she had to hit me with it....

Lebell: Discipline is not 'black and white' for me. Keep in mind that this was just an excerpt, so there is more explanation around the quoted text.

I have found that kids who run into the street are more often than not seeking attention. Even though you're spanking them or what not, it's a game to them.

Working at wal-mart, I see a lot of that "when I tell you to come here..." That and, just like clock work, a car parks, the doors open and the toddler RUNS FOR HIS FUCKING LIFE, and the parent chases after them and hit and or yells at them, 'I TOLD YOU TO HOLD MY HAND!!" Blarg, if you didn't make them stay attached to you 24/7, they wouldn't run like that every chance they got.

Respect.

Demeter · 05-29-2005, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EULA

Working at wal-mart, I see a lot of that "when I tell you to come here..."

Hehe....I work in a grocery store & hear the wails & screams of children all day long. I'm ready to tell the parents,
"I'm gonna come over to your place & scream in your living room for 30 minutes, m'kay?"

Sage · 05-29-2005, 09:05 AM

Sometimes I don't understand how so many parents can just not care about their kids. At the store/wal-mart/whatever, I always feel SO terrible for the kids when the parents are just total, complete, utter assholes. I know that everyone has days when they're tired, stressed, sick, whatever, and those days it's ok to be a little cranky. But when the parents are just being asses towards their kids, I want to walk up to them and say "Are you TRYING to raise the antichrist?" Now, I don't have kids so I don't know any of this firsthand, but there's been enough babies come through my family that I've seen what works and what doesn't.

I think that there should be the kind of friendship between child and parent that exists between a teacher and a student. Not only are you friends, but you respect each other enough to really listen and be concerned about what's going on. One of the main reasons I don't want to have kids (I'm 22, so this may change) is I'm afraid of rasing them wrong. I still have some "princess" tendencies to work through, and I know I'm not mature enough yet to put my child's needs over my wants.

Great book excerpt by the way

raeanna74 · 05-30-2005, 11:09 AM

One more thing for those of you working in a store. Don't necessarily look down on every parent who has to correct a child in the store. Children frequently choose a public forum to test their bounderies because parents are hesistant to punish publicly. For toddlers this is difficult because the consequences has to be immediate or they won't connect the consequences to the action. What I would look down on is when a parent tells a kid "no" in the cashout line, they start screaming, and the parent promptly hands them the candy they were asking for. I would actually prefer to hear the kid cry rather than see the parent reinforce the child's thinking that they can throw a tantrum and get what they want.

Also it's not always feasible to leave a full grocery cart with frozen items in the cashout line or any other place in the store. That checkout lane is where I see the most frequent tantrums, partly because of the glaring presence of candy. If stores would rather make no candy sales instead of listening to the screams of children then they should move the candy. They don't - because children are their best sales associates.

Demeter · 05-30-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

One more thing for those of you working in a store. Don't necessarily look down on every parent who has to correct a child in the store. Children frequently choose a public forum to test their bounderies because parents are hesistant to punish publicly. For toddlers this is difficult because the consequences has to be immediate or they won't connect the consequences to the action. What I would look down on is when a parent tells a kid "no" in the cashout line, they start screaming, and the parent promptly hands them the candy they were asking for. I would actually prefer to hear the kid cry rather than see the parent reinforce the child's thinking that they can throw a tantrum and get what they want.

Also it's not always feasible to leave a full grocery cart with frozen items in the cashout line or any other place in the store. That checkout lane is where I see the most frequent tantrums, partly because of the glaring presence of candy. If stores would rather make no candy sales instead of listening to the screams of children then they should move the candy. They don't - because children are their best sales associates.

I know what kids can be like, I've walked out of stores myself when my kids have acted up.
But there's a big difference in a candy-bar fight at the checkout, and being able to locate the family in question in the store & track them as their child screeches relentlessly for 20-40 minutes. Up & down the ailses, screaming & screaming.
I know what kids are like, and I understand how boring & frustrating shopping is for kids (and adults!). But I've seen kids carry on & fall & roll around on the floor, crying until they are dry-heaving, and the parents either act like nothing is going on or scream & wail right back (gee I wonder where they learned that!)
The funniest, however, and I could not help myself from laughing out loud, was a very very energetic boy about 3 or 4, ignoring his Mom completely as she repeatedly asked him to settle down. He was standing in the main part of the shopping cart & rocking it impatiently as his Mom was trying to pay with her debit card.
"Hurry up you Crackhead!" he yells at his Mother.
Now tell me where a 3 year old learns that?
His mother never even flinched, just went on her way quietly.
Its a sad thing.

getwonk'd · 05-30-2005, 07:10 PM

My kids are pretty good. They have been taught the limits early on and know what to expect. If the ran in the street, they got a swat and never ran in the street again. With the swat they got an explanation as to why it is wrong. When they threw a tantrum at a store, we ignored it or if it lasted more than a minute or two we left. Even if it ment a cart full of groceries sitting at the service counter until I could get back. We use timeouts and spankings and groundings. We have few problems in public because before we go into a place, I tell them what I expect of them. We have more "power struggles" at home. Consistency is where they learn whats acceptable and what is not. When our 2 year old listens to instructions and follows them, we tell him good job of listening. Active parenting equals good kids. If kids know what to expect, good or bad, they tend to react accordingly.

05-27-2005, 04:40 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	You had an unhappy childhood? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

05-28-2005, 08:36 AM	#6 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	There are times when you need a child to listen without question, for the sake of their own safety, or the safety of others. When a child runs out onto the street, you yell "stop" and expect they will immediately. You don't let the child run where they please to explore their independance. But 99% of the time, the situation is not so vital as that. So how do you teach a toddler with no concepts of differenciating circumstances that its okay to not listen to the parents sometimes, but at crucial times you need to adhere. How doea a child figure that out? Would it be best to have a compliant child, or a dead one? Just pondering strategies. __________________ I am not bound to please thee with my answers. William Shakespeare

05-28-2005, 12:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	EULA, Based on this and our previous conversation, it seems to me that the whole concept of discipline is very black and white to you. In this article, the writer is talking about "power struggles" without explanation. But Demeter gave a very good example of a "power struggle" that should never happen. And here of course is the difference. There are times when a child should listen, no ifs ands or buts, just like there are times a parent should say "no", with no argument or appeal possible. For example, Sexymama and I take the approach of always saying "yes" unless there is a reason to say "no". You want your friends to stay over? Yes, unless there is a reason for them not to. You want to go swimming today? Yes, unless there is a reason you can't. But just the other day, my 11 year old tried to tell me that because it was her trampoline, she should be able to do something that I had judged unsafe. Uh uh, no way. She also lost trampoline priviledges that day for the attempt, no appeal. And because she knows we will follow through, she knows that if she throws a tantrum or tries to circumvent the restrictions, we will take down the trampoline without hesitation. We do this not out of anger or to maintain our "power", but because we are responsible for her safety and there will be no argument regarding it. I think that the fundamental difference is that between discipline and consequences and approaching parenting from the angle of a detached parent instead of passionate equals, ie, parents that try to be the kid's "friend" instead of their parent. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate! Last edited by Lebell; 05-28-2005 at 12:32 PM..

05-28-2005, 12:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	"He has felt the sting or weight of our displeasure for so long that he can no longer feel it. We have argued with him so many times about trivia, and when no argument was necessary, that he decides that everything we argue about is trivial, and that we argue only because we like to argue." I think think this is the crucial point here. We really need to balance any criticism or correction with praise and reward. Even if it's just a reward of our pleasure and smile. Tell your child that you appreciate their good behavior. It's hard to remember this part of teaching our children the right way to behave. How will they know the right way if they aren't told they are doing right sometimes. No one likes constant criticism. Everyone enjoys being praised. It's normal for someone to want to behave in a positive way in order to recieve a positive response. We don't have to be a buddy in order to do this. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

05-28-2005, 04:03 PM	#10 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	Robaggio, that one time you ran into the street & your parents spanked you, you could have been killed before your parents had the chance to show you it was dangerous. We don't show kids pictures of streets & guns & lighters & spank them & say 'bad' to reinforce this thought, because there should be no punishment where there is no bad behavior. and besides, they may associate the spanking with pictures in general. But if a toddler is brought up to obey Mom & Dad, then a warning could be verbalized as the child goes to touch something forbidden. (Toddler legs are fast & parents might not be in reach) Then everyone could be saved from a terrible incident. This doesn't need to be done with physical punishments, parents soon learn what will reinforce good bahavior from a child, be it deprevation of a privlidge or a favored toy, time out, etc. No two children are alike and no two children respond to a punishment the same way. And of course, raeanna 74 has an important point here... I think think this is the crucial point here. We really need to balance any criticism or correction with praise and reward. Even if it's just a reward of our pleasure and smile. Tell your child that you appreciate their good behavior. It's hard to remember this part of teaching our children the right way to behave. How will they know the right way if they aren't told they are doing right sometimes. No one likes constant criticism. Everyone enjoys being praised. It's normal for someone to want to behave in a positive way in order to recieve a positive response. We don't have to be a buddy in order to do this. A well loved child is the greatest gift a parent can offer the world. __________________ I am not bound to please thee with my answers. William Shakespeare

05-27-2005, 04:55 PM	#3 (permalink)
Disk_Pusher Tilted Location: Fresno, soon to be Sacramento!	That was a facinating read - I believe I'll see if I can find that book at the library. My family, however, was not a fan of words. There was no second round of "come here right now" - there was me being dragged by my overalls to whereever I should have been. It's not the way I'd like to raise my son.

05-29-2005, 09:05 AM	#13 (permalink)
Sage hoarding all the big girl panties since 2005 Location: North side	Sometimes I don't understand how so many parents can just not care about their kids. At the store/wal-mart/whatever, I always feel SO terrible for the kids when the parents are just total, complete, utter assholes. I know that everyone has days when they're tired, stressed, sick, whatever, and those days it's ok to be a little cranky. But when the parents are just being asses towards their kids, I want to walk up to them and say "Are you TRYING to raise the antichrist?" Now, I don't have kids so I don't know any of this firsthand, but there's been enough babies come through my family that I've seen what works and what doesn't. I think that there should be the kind of friendship between child and parent that exists between a teacher and a student. Not only are you friends, but you respect each other enough to really listen and be concerned about what's going on. One of the main reasons I don't want to have kids (I'm 22, so this may change) is I'm afraid of rasing them wrong. I still have some "princess" tendencies to work through, and I know I'm not mature enough yet to put my child's needs over my wants. Great book excerpt by the way __________________ Sage knows our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's She answers hard acrostics, has a pretty taste for paradox She quotes in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus In conics she can floor peculiarities parabolous -C'hi

05-30-2005, 11:09 AM	#14 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	One more thing for those of you working in a store. Don't necessarily look down on every parent who has to correct a child in the store. Children frequently choose a public forum to test their bounderies because parents are hesistant to punish publicly. For toddlers this is difficult because the consequences has to be immediate or they won't connect the consequences to the action. What I would look down on is when a parent tells a kid "no" in the cashout line, they start screaming, and the parent promptly hands them the candy they were asking for. I would actually prefer to hear the kid cry rather than see the parent reinforce the child's thinking that they can throw a tantrum and get what they want. Also it's not always feasible to leave a full grocery cart with frozen items in the cashout line or any other place in the store. That checkout lane is where I see the most frequent tantrums, partly because of the glaring presence of candy. If stores would rather make no candy sales instead of listening to the screams of children then they should move the candy. They don't - because children are their best sales associates. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma. Last edited by raeanna74; 05-30-2005 at 11:12 AM..

05-30-2005, 07:10 PM	#16 (permalink)
getwonk'd Tilted Location: Central Wisconsin	My kids are pretty good. They have been taught the limits early on and know what to expect. If the ran in the street, they got a swat and never ran in the street again. With the swat they got an explanation as to why it is wrong. When they threw a tantrum at a store, we ignored it or if it lasted more than a minute or two we left. Even if it ment a cart full of groceries sitting at the service counter until I could get back. We use timeouts and spankings and groundings. We have few problems in public because before we go into a place, I tell them what I expect of them. We have more "power struggles" at home. Consistency is where they learn whats acceptable and what is not. When our 2 year old listens to instructions and follows them, we tell him good job of listening. Active parenting equals good kids. If kids know what to expect, good or bad, they tend to react accordingly.