tspikes51

I know this will make a lot of people mad.

If you're an atheist, and you go out of your way to tell people that they're wrong because they follow a religion, that makes you a fanatic.

Since I'm sure these arguments will come up, I'll go ahead and offer my rebuttal.

No, tspikes, you're wrong because we aren't motivated by a god that doesn't exist.

You don't know if there's a god or not.

I do too...

No, you don't. Shut the fuck up.

But we never had a pope or anything tell people to kill people.

No, not yet (or at least any notable incidents like the Inquizition). Atheists were almost non-existent until fairly recently, though. Give them 500 more years and then we'll talk.

But the creationist theory isn't very believable

Who gives a shit how we got here. We can't change it.

But evolution

Again, who cares. It doesn't have much to do with religion.

I see this trend everywhere that just because people are atheist it gives them immunity from being a fanatic. You're not right, and neither are religious people. So stop comparing dick size, man up, and agree to disagree; because nobody's gonna ever be right or wrong.

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MageB420666

Nah, that's not fanaticism.

Fanaticism is not only telling them their wrong, but going out of your way to try and force them to your point of view.

Your example is just someone who is an ass and extremely vocal about it.

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tspikes51

True, but there are many an atheist that do that.

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Min

I feel that those arguing against one's right to school prayer, when the majority wishes it or not accepting that there are intelligent and religious people in this world, would fall under fanatic category.

I have met the above types. Their tactics and rhetoric sounds the same, just change the words a bit.

Willravel

But some of us might just crack a big smile
It's more than verbal at times. Some people have actively tried to force me to abandon God and take up evolution. It's absurd. It's clearly none of their buisness.
That's true. God is scientifically improbable, but so are many things. How long ago were heart transplants impossible? I'm not saying God is scientifically possible because he can't be disproven, simply that no one has any authority to dismiss anything from reality completly.

Interesting. I hadn't considered the age differences between the movements.
Evolution (everyone's counter to creationism) is just on the cusp of believable. Until there is proof, it doesn't matter.
What does evolution have to do with eating bread and drinking wine to celebrate the life of the Son of God? Can evolution disprove that Herod killed every first born to try and stop Jesus from taking his power?

MageB420666

The reason school prayer is not allowed is because it would be religious fanatacism being forced on atheists. You pray in church, temple, home, etc. You go to school to learn English, Math, Social Studies, etc.

Just because the majority wishes it does not make it right. School prayer was done away with because it created a situation that bred trouble, students that did not wish to pray would be either forced to or targeted for ridicule. It would violate others rights, besides no where in the constitution does it say that you have the right to school prayer.

I'm not saying that there aren't atheist fanatics, I'm just disagreeing with the definition that tspike presented. I have gotten into arguments/discussions with people over religion, but that doesn't make me a fanatic.

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d*d

You're taking the word aethiest and applying values to it that don't exist in attempt to bring it inline with other religious beleifs so that it can be treated and argued against in the same way. fanatics can and do exist with any form of beleif. It is not a movement, or a faith. Aethiests do not share a common core of values so I find it unlikely that Aethiests will not go to war or kill in name of well, no-one. Aethiesm is the right not to beleive in what you are told, the right to question the validity of what is given to us as fact. Why don't you try to listen to reasons why a person is aethiest instead of trying to categorize them with others so you have a reason not to

zen_tom

Ha! Who cares?! Of course! Why didn't any of those stupid atheist fanatics think of that. What Church exactly do you belong to that teaches us this wise doctrine of "Who Cares"??

cellophanedeity

Fanaticism of any sort is bad, whether it's Christian, Muslum, Feminist, Athiest, or anything. Being too tied up in one's own religion or politics to be able to listen to the other side without yelling "You're WRONG!" seems wrong, no matter who's doing it.

The people that try and convince me that I ought follow God by quoting their own faith and telling me I'll go to hell if I don't believe will never convince me. The people that try and tell me that there is no God because there is no proof and so on will never convince me.

Not only does fanaticism annoy people and destroy social structures and peace, but it also doesn't work!

Oh, and prayer in school shouldn't be allowed, despite the majority. Often, "majority rules" leaves the rest of us for dead.

Charlatan

Shouldn't this thread be called: Aetheist's can be fanatics too (or how I learned that people can be assholes regardless of thier religous beliefs).

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Mbwuto

Proof plz.

You know, unless you're making spurious claims that you can only back up with, "No you don't. Shut the fuck up". Eloquent.

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martinguerre

*ding!

a little humility is a wonderful trait for anyone to have...

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Stompy

Fact: the chance of god existing is the EXACT same as that of a purple anus flying around the rings of Saturn.

Well, just because we haven't discovered the flying purple anus doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

People who believe in god are FAR more fanatical than athiests, at least from what I've seen. People who believe in god let it rule their every action and recite 300 pages of bible passages to people who do things they don't agree with.

Simply saying, "There is no god" doesn't make someone fanatical.

Fanatics are those who do outrageous nonsensical things in the name of their cause (i.e. blowing up abortion clinics to save lives).

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Bill O'Rights

Hmmm...bit of an overstatement in that title, wouldn't you say? I mean, I'm an atheist...but I don't wear it on my sleeve. In fact, there are, I would imagine, few that actualy know of my beliefs, or the lack thereof. I bring it out when I feel that it is either necessary, or apropriate. To me, a fanatic describes someone that is all consumed by their beliefs, convictions, loyalties or emotions. My belief system does not include a "god". That one simple part of my makeup does not, I believe, consume me.

I think that you may be falling into the trap of claiming atheism to be a religion of itself. It is not. Rather it is the lack of a religion. You believe in God. I do not. You have religion. I do not. It's all really rather simple.

To be fair, though, I do know that there are some of my ilk out there that like to "preach", much as a born again ultra-Christian would. I would submit that those are the atheists that are trying to convince themselves, moreso than you, of the nonexistence of a deity. But most of us, I think, have made our own peace with our convictions....long ago. So, do me a favor and be careful of that broad brush with which you want to paint us.

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tspikes51

Read some about the history of the world. Religion has existed since the dawn of civilization. There was some form of religion in every corner of the world. Atheism was not even a widely-known concept until somebody separated church and the state. Before that, you rebelled against a religion, now you just don't believe there is a god.

If you can prove that there is or isn't a God, could you please enlighten the rest of us???
I have that right as a person who believes in a god too. I practice it on a daily basis. If you think that just because I follow some doctrines means that I don't question them, or are you implying that all religious people are blind??? What I'm saying is that religious people can be as valid, invalid, or fanatical with their views on God as atheists and agnostics because, simply put, nobody knows for sure what's out there.

I'll get to some more comments after a bit. I know my first post was muddy and kind of harsh, but every writer needs a chance to clarify.

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Mbwuto

So...because you say so? I love how you put the burden on proof on me, the one who makes no claims.

P.S. Atheism is a word grounded in greek roots. Atheos. Or godless.

Edward Montagu sez

"As long as the manners of the Romans were regulated by this first great principle of religion, they were free and invincible. But the atheistical doctrine of Epicurus, which insinuated itself at Rome … undermined and destroyed this ruling principle.... [This principle of religion] controlled manners, and checked the progress of luxury in proportion to its influence. But when the introduction of Atheism had destroyed this principle, the great bar to corruption was removed, and the passions at once let loose to run their full career, without check or control."

That takes us back to the B.Cs. How far do I need to go back? I mean, is two thousand years long enough?

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MageB420666

Yes, religion has existed for a long time, as far as we have discovered. But as far as I understand it the reeaaaallllyyy early religions were based in nature worship, not the worship of a diety/ies.

I have to agree with you here. Free thinking is not just the realm of the Atheist.

But I do have to say that there are far, far fewer fanatical atheists than fanatical religious zealots. And being outspoken about your beliefs, be they for or against god, does not qualify as fanaticism.

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lindseylatch

This thread only seems to prove that even religious people can make erroneous generalizations about people of a certain belief structure...

There are fanatics in every religion (or belief system). Just because a few people are fanatics doesn't make all of them fanatics. Yes, some atheists are assholes, and fanatics, and won't listen to anything you try to tell them. Guess what? So are some Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Pagans, etc. Doesn't mean everyone is that way. That's like saying all Asians are good at math, or all black people are criminals. It's a generalization, and like all generalizations it's incorrect, including this one.
And saying "Shut the Fuck up" isn't going to make you seem like one of the more enlightened...

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Janey

I don't know. What I do know, is that Atheism requires a certain amount of faith as well.

I belong to the League of Agnostics, where "We don't know if we belive in anything or not"

Coppertop

Excellent post.

Seems to me the OP has some issues that need to be worked out.

lindseylatch

ha, me too. Although I think of it more as we're just covering our ass...If we don't actually subscribe to one, then we can't be wrong!

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"If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him."
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Stompy

It's easier to wind up with Atheism/Agnosticism just because... well, of the obvious.

There's been TONS of religions throughout time - everything from Apollo the Sun God to L. Ron Hubbard's "thetas". Do you REALLY think YOURS is the right one? Really now, you see nothing wrong with believing in some man that lived 2000 years ago that could walk on water and defy the laws of nature, yet you see nothing wrong with a supposed intergalactic nuclear war that took place billions of years ago by aliens?

I think the "fanatics" are the ones that won't even possibly entertain the idea that god may not exist and base their entire lives around a particular religion, letting a POSSIBLE made up story rule their only chance at living and experiencing life.. specially when it comes to insignificant things (for example, "I can't move in with you before marriage or I'll go to hell" or "I can't have sex/have kids before marriage or god will hate me".. that type of garbage).

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martinguerre

Pray tell...what are those equal odds numerically expressed?

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Stompy

Neither one can be proved or disproved!

Scientists can't see the purple flying anus because it flies so fast and is made of dark matter. But it's purple... or so the legend says!

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tecoyah

There is a middle ground here people......acceptance of human nature.
Why does there need to be a "Right" god. And who among us is enlightened enough to say anyone is wrong to believe as they do. The only difficulty here is the assumption by some that they somehow KNOW what this God thing is....

I do not understand why one, or none would be better than another, when likely, each of us has our own understanding of what "It" really is.......to ourselves.

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snowy

HAHAHA...I loved that. I'm gonna have to send that on to my dad. He's a rather fanatical atheist when you get him talking about it...which is more and more often these days.

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kramus

When I was in my early teens I thought of myself as atheist. With a little mulling over and a chance to expose my mind to a few more years of asst. viewpoints I figured I was a reformed agnostic. An atheist firmly believes in nothing, and quite often generates a lot of emotional heat when rubbing against more orthodox beliefs. An agnostic figures an answer is there somewhere if only they look hard enough. A reformed agnostic is more relaxed about the whole thing because when we die we know, and until our death/ultimate lesson we can get on with other things while enjoying the play of all sorts of ideas.

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Amnesia620

Again, I commend you, tecoyah, for being clear, concise, fair and balanced. I hope that in my remaining years on this earth, I can regard things with such a level head and steady voice, as you have.

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d*d

you're right my post did seem to imply that but it was not my intention, my point should have been that aethiests should be afforded the right not to beleive in god as you are the right to believe.

Stompy

I'm not sure how individuals on this board follow the bible or certain doctrines, so I'm not commenting on them, however, pretty much EVERY single religious person I've ever known has been utterly ignorant and unwilling to accept differing viewpoints and/or change.

For example, this girl I know is a die hard christian. She won't have sex before marriage because "god will hate her" or whatever the excuse is, yet she will do EVERYTHING else, even anal. She also verbally makes opinions bashing gay people, yet she has been with other girls.

Others have done silly things like realize "Diablo 2" is about the devil halfway through (as if the name didn't give that away..) then stop and say, "I have a bad feeling about this game. It's too evil." Riiiight.

Again, it's not that EVERY religious person in the world is like that, just pretty much ALL the ones I've ever known.. and that's not good.

I think that is a big reason why I am agnostic, just because the absurdity of how they carry out their lives and the basis of which they form these wacked out opinions of things. Yeah, you're REALLY gonna burn for eternity for playing Diablo 2

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Lebell

It seems to me, Stompy, that you probably only pay attention to the vocal religious people.

The ones I hang with are nothing like what you describe.

But then again, we don't shove religion in anyone's face either.

Perhaps you ought to expand your understanding of religion and get to know what more liberal Christians think and believe.

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Stompy

Oh, I have quite a good concept and understanding of religion, actually. I don't have a problem in that area.

It's not that I *only* pay attention to the vocal religious, it's that the ones who are really into it... pretty much all of them are like that, like I said. It's not like I've only known a handful, either. I've known quite a bit of them over the years. But as I said, I'm sure not ALL of them are like that.

There are some who are kinda religious who never attend church and don't base their lives off of it, and they generally aren't the ones to be how I described... which is fine.

I have a co-worker that's also on TFP, and he can vouch for that, haha.. we've had two people work here over the past year or so that were very religious, and they were complete nut jobs. I know it's bad to make a generalization but... it's amost to the point where it's not a coincidence.

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lindseylatch

I have a best friend who is very religious and she is the kindest, sweetest person ever. I know she's waiting until she gets married to have sex, but she doesn't look down on those of us who aren't waiting. She goes to church on a regular basis, but doesn't harp on us if we don't go. I have NEVER heard her say a bad thing about gay people or pro-choicers.
She is very religious, and yet she doesn't shove it in anyone's face. She lets her religion shine by itself, I don't even know when she told me she was Christian. It's like I just subtley became aware of it.
I think people like her are in the majority.
We notice the vocal, fanatical ones because people like my friend are so quiet and subtle about how they live their lives according to their beliefs.
Perhaps you're in an area where there are a lot of assholes, but that's certainly not the case with my peers. We're pretty hesitant to push ANY beliefs on another person, especially religion.

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flstf

I have known many Christians, some are members of my family whom I love and respect. However, I just cannot understand why any thinking person would logically grab onto one of the religions. I think it is more emotional than logical since we humans seem to have a deep need to understand our place in the universe and do not want to believe that we just live and die and that's all there is.

I guess I'm agnostic and cling to the idea that there may be some truth in all or most of the world's religions, or not. I haven't met any fanatical atheists yet but have met several fanatical religious ones. IMHO fanatical people seem to push their beliefs on others because deep down they question the basis of their thinking and are trying to reinforce themslves as much as to gain new converts.

Lebell

Stompy,

Thank you for posting your experiences.

All I can say is, that in my 40+ years of life, I have met many deeply religious people, and what you describe is in the minority in my experience.

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liquidlight

What a crock. . . next you'll be saying that prayer in a public place shouldn't be allowed because an atheist MIGHT overhear you!! Nothing is being forced on anyone in this situation, if you don't wish to participate then don't, but that does NOT give you the right to tell me what I can and cannot do! You have your rights, and I have mine, I object when the minority inflicts their rights upon me under the guise of being politically correct! Why is it alright for you to choose not to pray in schools, but it is not alright for me to choose that I want to pray in schools?!? Nobody is forcing you, and I don't think anywhere outside of religious based schools has a prayer activity been required for decades!

Before you make it, no I will not agree that the practice of prayer is discriminatory against those that wish to be exempted, because in attempting that argument you're saying that it's more acceptable to have the converse and discriminate against the large majority that wishes to participate! As for being targeted for ridicule if that were the case, given our litigious society why weren't their civil cases brought against students for it? In regard to the constitution there is a clause that says that ALL RIGHTS NOT SPECIFICALLY GRANTED OR DENIED ARE RESERVED FOR THE STATES AND CITIZENS! Which means I have just as much right to school prayer as you have right to object to it, if you don't like it don't participate or go elsewhere. The catholics have had church run schools for centuries, if the atheists want their own views taught in school, let them do the same, because at the moment I'm tired of the double standard that you feel vindicated with forcing your prayer free schools on people but don't see that you're just the other end of the fanatical spectrum. I know it's repetitive, but how is forcing compliance with being prayer free any less discriminatory and insidious than forcing prayer participance?!

Alright, I'm done ranting, sorry it's a little off topic. My overall opinion on the thread? Anyone with enough conviction is dangerous unless tempered by a little reason, and the ones that are unable to see the compromise or possible flaws in their own logic usually either don't understand the entire concept or are so convinced that they're right that they'd stop at nothing to make sure everyone else shares their beliefs. I've met a lot more religious fanatics than I have atheist or agnostic fanatics, but I agree that being atheist don't exclude them from fanatacism.

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Mbwuto

Students can pray in school all day long. The school can't sponsor it, or set aside class time for it specifically. Catholic schools are private, no seperation of church and state there. You can pray between classes as much as you want. You can pray all lunch long.

So yes, you can pray in school.

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liquidlight

Uhmm. . . you might want to put the first sentence back on that paragraph and look at the context, I'd stopped the prayer in school part and gone back to just fanatics in general. But again you've made my argument of discrimination for me, if the student majority voted to have a time of day set aside for prayer that's their choice attained by the democratic process, and last I noticed most prayer is pretty nondenominational, so precisely what church would you be separating from the state? Yet by your logic the students that want the prayer, the majority most often in this case, should not be allowed that right because someone might be offended? Rather than repeat myself, just reread my previous posting.

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Mbwuto

So if the student body votes in no clothes Tuesdays you would be ok with that? For that matter, why can't that group that wants to pray just pray? I mean it's allowed. They can pray before school, after school, during lunch, between classes.

Also your entire school prayer argument seems to hinge on a mistruth. I put it in bold for you.

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liquidlight

Honestly if they wanted no clothes Tuesday's I'd say let them learn the hard way, if they could get the support for it more power to them. . . I do still remember what my high school student body looked like and there were more than enough people that a) I didn't want to see naked, and b) that I didn't want to see me naked, that a measure like that would never pass.

As for the group that wants to pray, no it isn't allowed. A local high school here actually had several students get EXPELLED over a song that was selected for the graduation ceremony because a single student objected to it. A little different I know, but they objected on religious grounds. They can pray privately and I understand that there are opportunities during school to pray, that's not my objection, my objection is that by the rules and your argument it's somehow more acceptable for prayer to be outlawed than it is for prayer to be endorsed, and you have yet to offer me any reason why that's reasonable?

And how is that a mistruth? By federal LAW prayer may not be school sponsored in any way, you said so yourself, thus all of the children that might like prayer in school do not have the option in any public school system.

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