CoachAlan

I was on the National Geographic website, and a portion of their pages about the pyramids seemed to go against a well-accepted (I thought) portion of the Old Testament. I'm wondering what evidence there is that the plagues of Egypt actually existed.

If the ten plagues from the Old Testament really happened, wouldn't it be the most written about thing in Egypt, ever? This was a culture that wrote everything down in stone, after all. Wouldn't there be copious records that an entire race of people was enslaved? And yet the most recent evidence out of Egypt seems to indicate that the masses of laborers who toiled in ancient Egypt were not slaves at all.

If the entire land of Egypt was covered in frogs, wouldn't someone have mentioned that, too?

And finally, if all the first born of the people and the livestock died on the same day, wouldn't it be mentioned SOMEWHERE other than the Bible? In fact, wouldn't it be mentioned pretty much EVERYWHERE?

I wonder why that is? Maybe, just maybe, the Bible is a compendium of historical fiction. Maybe it's meant to teach through parable instead of being taken literally. And maybe (here's where the rubber hits the road) some of the fundamentalists out there should cool off a bit. Because maybe it's more about being a good person than it is about blindly obeying every line of the Scripture word for word.

Or maybe there's a bunch of evidence out there and I'm just phenomenally ignorant. I did a Google search and I don't think ignorance is the case, but the TFP has enlightened me on far too many occasions for me to rule it out.

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Killconey

I would imagine that would also depend on how embarrased the Egyptians were. Most ancient societies only recorded events that made them look strong and powerful so that people would remember that forever. If there were Biblical plagues upon the land and a group of slaves defied and defeated the Pharoah, would he really want people to remember that?

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joe69

ever been there? loads of sand around them pyramides

CoachAlan

I can't say for sure, but I would imagine that the Pharoah and his cohorts were not the only one who knew how to write. Certainly if my firstborn (and my animals) were killed in a plague of this magnitude, I'd make note of it with the burial. And this would have affected thousands, maybe millions, of families.

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wnker85

The Egyptians had had the greatest library in the world containing all the information that the great minds of the world had compiled (Greece, Egypt, Rome..ect..ect ). But, in a war with Rome it burned down,(a ship that was on fire was too close to the library and caught it on fire) and all the writings that were kept burned with it. Many historians believe that this event slowed the growth of man by centuries. Your proof was most likely burned too, and other places where the Bible was challenged with historical accuracy the bible turns out to be right.

edit: Rephrase

asaris

CoachAlan: how many of those thousands of families could read or write? In fact, what was the burial method for the average Egyptian?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

irateplatypus

i think the burning of the library at Alexandria is perhaps the greatest single calamity to befall mankind. the medicinal/historical/philosophical setbacks have probably been incalculable.

coachalan,

if you're implying that the evidence shows that the hebrews were not in fact the builders of the pyramids, i think that is the consensus among archeologists. the bible makes no reference to the pyramids... only that the hebrew people were living as slaves doing forced labor. the notion that they contributed to building the pyramids is just a silly tradition and isn't grounded in scripture. i thought perhaps that this was part of your reasoning, sorry if this isn't relevant to your original post.

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If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.

~ Winston Churchill

CoachAlan

That's a good point, irateplatypus. It's my understanding that the Hebrews were allegedly enslaved en-masse around the time the pyramids were being built. I could have my timeline off there, in which case it would explain why it doesn't agree with the archaeologists.

And I agree 100% that the birning of the library is one of the worst things ever to happen to mankind. We'd probably all have flying cars and robot slaves by now if it weren't for that. I want my robot slaves! Damn enemies of Egypt!

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Willravel

Hahahaha, yea robots slaves...where do I sign up?
I think the reason we all think the Isrealites were building the pyramids is because of Disney and other childrens movie makers. Remember the Price of Egypt movie? Pyramids. SuperBook? Pyramids. Flying House? Pyramids. It's a matter of linking two seperate great stories to make the movie more entertaining. Yet another reason that Disney is evil.
Also, my back yeard is covered in frogs, but after I'm dead...no one will know about it. Jk.

CoachAlan

Thanks, willravel, for lightening up this thread. Surely the sources you cite are the reason I associated the Hebrews with the time of the pyramids. Just so we can be clear, can anybody inform me of when the pyramids were built, and when the Hebrews were allegedly enslaved en-masse (the time of Exodus).

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martinguerre

there's no hard date...i've seen a lot of theories. none are particularly convincing...save for one observation.

the question is not why the egyptians didn't record this. it's why *did*the hebrews?

why would your national story be one of slavery? it's not something you'd make up if you had the chance. so while i doubt that the story is historically factual in many ways...it must say something very true about the experience of the people....it is a narrative that would likely be suppressed if it didn't.

byesman

Actually, the Ipuwer Papyrus gives a list of some of the things that hit Egypt, which closely parallel the Biblical account, just not in the same order. Google it for more info.

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molloby

There is definitely evidence that the Israelites were linked to the Egyptians in some way. Egypt was the place where the world's first monotheistic religion (Atenism) was created.

Fibrosa

They didn't happen.

That's why there are no egyption records, nor any other records from the other cultures at the time.

It's also not very logical to think that if the plagues did happen that the majority of the egyptions would have continued to deny judaism (much less the caanites and others).

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Willravel

There was an issue of Popular Science a few years back that addressed this, but I can't find it. It tried really hard to explain some of the biblical supernatural events with modern science. I *think* they had a theory of some of what surrounded the liberation of the Isrealites (or Hebrews, if you will) from the Eqyptians.

I won't go as far as Fibrosa and say they didn't happen, but a complete lack of refrence outside of the bible makes it difficult to prove they DID happen. Remember that this happened during a time when Pharoah was considered to be a god, and was thought to have great supernatural powers. If this happened, Egypt might not have converted to Judaism because they had their own explainations for what happened that had nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian God. Pegan (excuse the use of the 'P" word, but it's meaning, 'non-christian', is apt in this use) Gods could have been blamed just as easily as the Hebrews were considered lower -if not the lowest- class. How could the lower/lowest class have a God more powerful than Pharoah?

byesman

Okay, there is reference outside of the Bible. The Ipuwer Papyrus was discovered in the 1800's and parts of it parallel the Biblical description:

The following is from http://www.konig.org/wc52.htm. It gives the historical side of the papyrus, along with a comparison to the Bible.

Many people do not believe the Exodus took place. They often claim that there is no historical evidence, other than that found in the Bible. But there is evidence of the Exodus as stated by Grant Jeffrey in his book "Unveiling Mysteries of the Bible". An important Egyptian historical manuscript was discovered in Egypt more than a century ago.

Remarkably, this ancient papyrus parallels the history of the Exodus account as found in the Scriptures. This manuscript recorded the writings of an ancient Egyptian named Ipuwer. The papyrus manuscript, now called the Ipuwer Papyrus, was discovered by someone named Anastasi in the area of Memphis, near the pyramids of Saqqara in Egypt.

The museum of Leiden in the Netherlands acquired the papyrus in 1828. It was translated and published in English for the first time in 1909 by Professor Alan H. Gardiner. Gardiner wrote that the manuscript was one that recorded a genuine historical catastrophe when the whole country of Egypt was in distress and violence. "It is no merely local disturbance that is here described, but a great and overwhelming national disaster."

Gardiner suggests that Ipuwer was an Egyptian sage who directed his writing to the king as a complaint that the national catastrophe was in part caused by the king’s failure to act and deal with the crisis.

A comparison of several key passages from the Biblical Book of Exodus with the ancient Egyptian papyrus reveals remarkable correspondences and parallels that point to a real historical catastrophe.

1. The Plague of Blood
In Ipuwer Papyrus 2:5-6, it says: Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere. Compare this with the Book of Exodus 7:21: There was blood throughout all the land of Egypt.

In Ipuwer Papyrus 2:10, it says: The River is Blood. Compare with Exodus 7:20: All the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.

In Ipuwer Papyrus 2:10, it says: Men shrank from tasting...and thirst for water. Compare with Exodus 7:24: And all the Egyptians digged round about the river for water to drink; for they could not drink of the water of the river.

2. The Plague of Hail
Ipuwer papyrus 9:23: The fire ran along the ground. There was hail, and fire mingled with the hail. Exodus 9:25: And the hail smote every herb on the field, and brake every tree in the field.

3. The Plague of Darkness
Ipuwer Papyrus 9:11: The land is not light. Exodus 10:22: And there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt.

4. The Plague of Egyptian Cattle
Ipuwer papyrus 5:5: All animals, their hearts weep. Cattle moan. Exodus 9:3: Behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be grievous murrain (disease).

5. The Plague of the Firstborn of Egypt
Ipuwer Papyrus 2:13: He who places his brother in the ground is everywhere. Exodus 12:27: He (the angel of the Lord) smote the Egyptians. Ipuwer Papyrus 4:3: Forsooth, the children of princes are dashed against the walls. Exodus 12:29: At midnight the Lord smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt. Ipuwer Papyrus 6:12: Forsooth, the children of the princes are cast out in the streets, Exodus 12:30: There was not a house where there was not one dead.

6. Response of the Egyptians to the Loss of their First born
Ipuwer Papyrus 3:14: It is groaning that is throughout the land, mingled with lamentations. Exodus 12:30: There was a great cry in Egypt.

In light of the ample evidence accumulated from ancient Jewish and Greek historians, together with the Ipuwer Papyrus that parallels several of the 10 Biblical plagues, it is clear that there is compelling non-Biblical evidence to confirm the scriptural account about the Exodus of the Jews from Egypt. Further proof of the Exodus is the fact; the Jews have annually celebrated three great festivals in commemoration of their Exodus (Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles) for 3500 years. Therefore, logically, the public observance of the Exodus Passover festival can only be explained if the Jewish people actually participated in these historical events as recorded in the Torah, the first five books of the Bible.

The entire papyrus can be read here: http://members.tripod.com/~Raseneb/Ipuwer.htm

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forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl.

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Cyphrspwn

OK, I know I may be a newby here, but I just might have an interesting observation here. Since basically all the history of that time was either found in Egypt, written by Egyptians, or in the bible...how do we know the two coincide? Here's a big theory to think on...in the bible...after Moses destroyed Pharoah's army...don't you think with a loss of that magnitude that Egypt would have to take a lot of time to recupperate (sp?). I doubt they would have time to write the events down if they are worried for the race's survival. Just a thought.

joeshoe

Eh, to deny that the Hebrews were ever enslaved is a bit far-fetched. You're saying they just made up that whole part? It's an integral part of the history of ancient Israel. At what point do you think the ancient Israelites suddenly decided to make it all up?

I think the history starting with Abraham is rational enough to be believed.

TheKak

There is lots of made up stuff in the Bible, so I think it possible.

I also can't find a date for the Ipuwer Papyrus being written, so I'm not sure you could even consider it "evidence". Many writings of that time period were copies of other things and written down oral stories that were not recorded first hand (ie, most of the Bible). Who is to say that whoever wrote this wasn't translating a piece of the Bible for someone else to read in a different language? Only now it has been found and deemed "proof" of Biblical accuracy. Hardly solid evidence.

EDIT: I also took another look at the link. The author(s) of that page also use Biblical prophecies as "proof". The Bible can't be proof of itself!

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asaris

Eh, sure they can. If some passage in the Bible were to specifically and successfully predict a future event, that would be some (not necessarily overwhelming) evidence of its importance. The difficulty is that it's hard to accurately date when these things were written down, especially without the assumption that if the Bible predicts something specifically and successfully, it must have been written after the fact.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

byesman

Okay, here are some other links to the papyrus, (I knew I shouldn't have grabbed the first one) and they generally place it as a New Kingdom or Middle Kingdom writing. This would place it from 1500 BCE to 1200 BCE. Now, did the Biblical account predate the I.P. did the I.P. predate the Bible, or were they written at the same time?

http://www.toxicmold.org/documents/0104.html
http://www.ohr.org.il/yhiy/article.php/838

__________________
If after I depart this vale you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost,
forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl.

H.L. Mencken