mandal

This is a prelude to a more interesting question or possibly interesting question, but are there religions that GOD creates everything in the Universe AND GOD knows everything that will happen?

mo42

Umm... yes, most forms of Christianity do, for example.

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It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got.

t193r7

All three religions of Abraham believes in an 'ultimate' God.

d*d

that's this one covered get on with the "possibly more interesting question"

mo42

I get the feeling that the question that he was going to ask was the first part of my signature. Just a hunch.

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It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got.

mandal

no it's more along the lines of.........

if God knows when he creates a person that the person will do certain things such as, kill people, deny him, be homosexual, molest children, and basically everything bad one can think of, why does he still create them? Since God controls essentially how a person thinks and their environment, or at least knows what each will be and the effect of it, isn't it essentially his chioce to create homosexuals and such? I mean if he creates me, knowing that in the environment he puts me in and the level of mental capactiy I contain that I will not believe in him, then isn't that his fault?

i mean, I guess it's pretty much the same as why God creates an evil world, but people always argue that God gives you free will and that it's your choice that you will do those things. But I argue doesn't God already know the moment he creates me that I will make those bad choices and such?

I had an discussion with one of my muslim friends who is REALLY religious. Full out religious, and when I asked him these things he was stumped. In the end i made something up like, " O i guess we still have free choice that God doesn't control" and left because i didn't want to destroy his beliefs.

ravenradiodj

I have the same questions you do about the Abrahamic religions on this one. OK, even assuming that I have free will, and any wrongs I do are my fault and not God's, this doesn't make sense. What kind of God gives free will to beings capable of torture, sadism, etc.? Parents create and love their children, but they don't give their children cigarette lighters and car keys before they're clearly old enough to handle it WITH DIRECT SUPERVISION - the first few times, anyway. I hate to invoke the authority of the Nuremberg Tribunal, or even Spider-Man, on this one, but I do believe that with power comes responsibility, and, following that logically, any all-powerful being has ultimate responsibility, and is responsible for everything his creations do. If he doesn't accept that, then he's an unjust God. And if he's not all-powerful, he doesn't meet their definition of their God. Like you, I can't find a single one of them who can explain this to my satisfaction. They may be content with "Well, it's a mystery", but I'm not. I'm stubborn, and curious, and I guess if their God is real, then my nature is his fault, too, so they shouldn't blame me for giving them grief over it

****************************************************************

Gimme That Old Time Religion - PAGAN FOR LIFE!!

dak

God is Love. He created us to share that love with. What is love if you cannot share it. Even people that are in love with only themselves want to let everyone else know how much they love themeselves and how important they are.

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dak

xepherys

Frankly, the problem with said religions is that one cannot have free will and have a being that is omnipotent. If he knows everything that has, is and will happen, then that circumvents free will by default. Abrahamic religions are GENERALLY such a sham! Some people individually get it right, but the masses have no such luck.

mo42

I myself am not sure whether God is all-knowing, future-wise, or not. It's a big mystery. But I just get a feeling from the things that I see and the way that I feel that He's real, regardless of whether there is evil in the world or not.

There is always the "God works in mysterious ways" answer, which seems kind of like a cop-out to me.

There is the "You need evil to see good" answer, which is interesting, although in my opinion, not true.

Now I'm wondering if God ever said in the Bible that He was all-knowing and all-powerful, or whether that is merely an assumption made by man. Anybody more knowledgable in Bible quotes know the answer to this?

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It's not getting what you want, it's wanting what you've got.

aRs3N1c42

There are portions of scripture, in the Psalms in particular, where it is stated about God that He knows what I'm going to say before I say it. The same Psalm, I believe states that God knows "when I sit and when I rise", as well as "my going out" and coming in. The psalmist states something like "all my days are numbered by God." It may not come right out and say that God knows the future, but it certainly gives that impression. The other aspect is that much of the prophetic writings came true, historically speaking. Provided that the prophesy orriginated from God and He gave the prophet the words to say/write then we could conclude that God knew what was going to happen before it did.

As for the why did(does) God allow evil? Look at all the good in the world that has come from someone experiencing great adversity. If not for adversity, which some call evil, many of our great leaders in the world (and history) may never have turned out as they did. Just as in your body, you give yourself resistance so that you can develop strength, evil in the world provides the resistance necessary to develop certain character qualities. C.S. Lewis call life a "vale of soul making". You put new, imperfect, people in it (as infants) and under pressure and resistance from evil, at the end of life, out come people of character.

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Imagination is more important than knowledge.
----Albert Einstein

martinguerre

For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. John 3:16

Everyone who believes. I identify as queer and born-again...and i don't see conflict between those. I appriciate it when queer isn't in the same sentence as murdering, molestation, and "basically everything bad one can think of." yeah, actually, i *really* appriciate it when that conflation isn't made.

To your question. think of a parent who never let their kids grow up...never let them have any experience that hurt them. it's not just a bad idea...it's all but child abuse. to shelter a being with moral agency from the possibility of making bad choices is to destroy them.

lukethebandgeek

Rational thought is not a part of faith. Rational though may strenghthen faith, but it does not compliment it. Faith relies on no proof at all. So, if God made himself known in a corporeal manner, then he would negate the need for faith. This is why God keeps to himself mostly.

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Yes, band camp is all it's cracked up to be.

So I like Chrono... So what?

MSD

You may find this thread interesting: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=48966& It seems to address the exact same question that you are addressing.

I'd give more of a response now, but in my sleep deprived state, I can't seem to shake off the idea that "Ultimate God" sounds like a video game character, and would most likely be able to kidk Raiden's ass.

Killconey

Just because God is omnipotent doesn't mean that we don't have free choice. That only means that he knows what we're going to choose. The only way for him to take away free choice would be by not creating those he knew would choose against him. People who complain that an omnipotent and omniscient (all powerful and all knowing) God should stop evil need to step up and take responsibility for their own actions.

Personally, I've always wondered if God sits up in heaven, knowing which people are going to reject him, but hoping he's wrong. I think he would much rather have his children love him than spurn him and kill each other, but that's our choice to make. If you disagree with me, that's fine because that is your choice to make.

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Look out for numbers two and up and they'll look out for you.

asaris

I've said this before, but just for the record, neither God's omnipotence nor his omniscience contradict free will in any way. The only problem is between his providence, that is, the control he exerts on the world, and free will.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

joe69

there is no god.

mandal

WAIT... everybody stop talking...

First off, i'm not arguing the stupid shit of why there is evil in the world or GOD has his purpose or something like that, so if you're thinking that, stop thinking.

this is the exact response i'm looking for.
the point that lots of people seem to be missing is that how is there free choice if God knows it's gonna happen and he creates us? And you can't argue that only God knows so what we do is still our choice.

here is what i'm trying to say:
God CREATES us. So he determines my mental capacity, my enviroment, everything that controls who I will be when I am older. So the moment God creates me, he knows what I will do with what he has given me. In that aspect, if he knows i'm not going to believe in him because a) i'm too smart or stupid to believe in him, or b) i'm just evil or something like that. Why didn't he make me smarter or stupider or less evil so i don't do bad things and believe in him.

more example: So say I decide that i'm going to use my life to kill people because I have no sympathy for people and dont love people. If God knows that I am going to do this today when he created me, why didn't he give me more sympathy or understanding when he created me. Or why didn't he situate it such that I will go through something that teaches me those things.

side note: sorry for the homosexuality remark, I only put it there because I know all those die hard religous people believe that so I am trying to catch their attention. I actually believe in gay marriage and support it. I mean it doesnt make sense to deprieve them of rights they deserve.

also, although I write these things in first person, it doesnt acutally describe me.

xepherys

Bah!

a) I still say that omnipotent beings circumvent free will. Look at it from a quantum mechanics standpoint. *shrug*

b) I don't believe that any god creates each of us individually. Even if an ultimate being created one human (or two), the rest were all created as offspring from them, not directly via the hand of god. Again, anyone so religious as to believe that is not the case somewhat goes against free will. If god's hand is involved in everything that happens, it means that he does assert some level of control, and therefore strips us of free will. Why is this concept so difficult to grasp?

Mr Zen

Nope. Wrong. When god creates the universe in the begining, he sets in motion cause and effect. The deistic cause and effect theory has been put forward by your own St. Thomas Aquinas. Also, you can look at the 'principle of sufficient reason', essencially says the same thing as St. Thom with a few slight differences.

Both theories essentially state that the chain of events that have lead to the present are all a result of a previous cause ie Cause 5 --> C4 --> C3 --> C2 --> C1 --> Ending (or beginning however you want to look at it) with a necessary being or event. Xianity says that this necessary being is God. (I say bullshit, but that's just me.)

The problem with this is that if god is omnipotent, omniscient, and a whole hoard of omni-things that he claims to be, then in the instant that god creates the universe, by definition of his qualities, he has knowledge of the full spectrum of time and space. By full knowledge we're talking about everything, including the atoms that were split to destroy two cities, full of people, in Japan in the 1940's.

Interestingly enough this also obsolves you of many of the things that xians hold dear. Judgement upon death, how can god judge you if he caused you to everything that you did? Prayer, god ain't doin' nothin' more for you bud, he made his choices in the beginning, nothing you say is going to change that because he already knows what you are going to say and discounted it. And so forth, and so forth. Use this method to discount pretty much anything in the Bible. Either there is no such thing as free will... or God is not omnieverything, in which case I see no need to worship him anyway.



(There's also the famous qoute about omnipotence, "If God is all powerfull, can he make a rock so big that even he can't lift it?" Toss that around for awhile. )

mandal

very well put Mr. Zen. I've always meant to discuss this topic, but since I didn' want to destroy my friends beliefs i've always been hesitant to talk it out with them after my one experience with a muslim friend. It's good to have this board to discuss it.

asaris

The same Aquinas also proved that the notion that God's omniscience contradicts human free will is based on an error in the placement of a modal modifier. So, for example, take the statement "God knows that Tom is sitting in a chair". According to those who want the contradiction, this entails "Tom is necessarily sitting in a chair"; that is, 'necessarily' is modifying 'sitting'. But this is wrong. What the statement 'God knows' entails is simply "Necessarily, Tom is sitting in a chair". And this does not contradict free will.

Let me put it another way. Sometimes we have knowledge[1] of the future; most often because we are the causes of what's going to happen in the future. I know I'm going to be driving to South Bend tomorrow afternoon, because I'm going to make it happen. But I also know that Donald Uitvlugt is going to be riding with me. No one would say that my knowledge in this case somehow compels Donald to get in the car. Then why is it supposed to be different with God's foreknowledge?

Xephyrs. SHOW me how God's omnipotence contradicts free will. Let me use a similar example to the one above. I could compel Matt to have a cigarette with me, either by using a gun, slipping something into his coffee that makes him really, really want to smoke, kidnap his wife and threaten that unless he smokes... But the mere fact that I could compel Matt to smoke with me doesn't mean that, when I do go to his office and ask him to smoke with me, that I'm compelling him. So why is it different in God's case?

Mandal suggests that, since God creates us, we aren't free. But I would strongly disagree with his claim, both in a broad way and a narrow way. It's at least anti-intuitive that the combination of environment and genes determine our selves. We like to think, at least, that our choices in part create who we are. And furthermore, if that combination determines who we are, there's as little room for freedom under a strictly materialist framework as under the most devoutly Christian. Now, more narrowly, I tend to follow the existentialist/Nietzschean notion of self-creation (I say tend because I also tend to like the medieval notion of individual essences, and there's a little tension there.) So, while we have certainly abilities and propensities, we can create ourselves into the person we want to be. I reject the idea, popular among many American protestant, that God has one specific plan for our lives; rather, I believe that he works through our own choices to bring about good in this world.

Finally, Mr Zen, I think we had a thread on "God create rock?" a while back that you might be interested in.
[1]That is, knowledge in the philosophical sense; justified true belief.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

mandal

But what you have to consider is: What is going to make MAtt decide if he is going to smoke? his experiences, his frame of mind, how he thinks, his environment, all things controlled and put in place by God. God's foreknowledge is very different becuase he creates us. So in essence he creates how my mind works and how strong/weak my mind is. By him creating us and him knowing what will happen when he creates us, he knows that if he creates me "x" way, I will do "y". So if he doesn't want me to do "y" he should actually create me like "z"

I think it's pretty clear how God's foreknowledge is different. Your foreknowledge doesnt change anything because you have no real control on how he thinks and how he will react, but God does. When God created Matt he determined everything about Matt.

I feel like i'm pretty much repeating myself. Try to read everything carefully and think about it carefully. I think you should see why there is a BIG difference between your foreknowledge and God's.

Mr Zen

This is why I only acknowledge a portion of his reasoning. In fact many of the justifications that he puts forward are with, if I may say so, very weak support and justification.

So we get into a problem with the definition of omniscience. Its not simply that god has knowledge of the future, moreover that he has absolute knowledge of everything. From the beginning of the universe (and presumably what occurred before that) to the eventual end of the same universe (now this brings into question, what happens when the universe ends? Does god simply create a new one or does he decide to put up his preverbal sword and retire to a nice place in the country side? But thats a discussion for another thread). He knows the course of every quantum proportion of every entity in existence.

Now, going from that, we also have the idea of creation. I don't think people actually think that god creates every living being, rather that god created everything (this is where Aquinas comes in) and set into motion the system of cause and effect that I mentioned earlier. Meaning that he created what was the beginning - whether that be the Adam and Steve (sorry Eve) story, or the intelligent design theory (I assume that this was proposed very early on but since I'm reading Rauhut right now, I'll reference him).

I prefer the intelligent design theory so I'm going to go with that (I find the incestual connotations that go with the Genesis story a bit nauseating so I'll stay away from it). So here's the scenario, god creates the universe. He spreads atoms this way and that, and creates planets, stars, black holes and the like. While doing this he is in essence shaping the course of history. Because, using our definition of omniscience, and that of omnipotence, we know that god has full knowledge of every consequence of every action that he takes and that of every consequence of every action of the initial set of consequences and actions. Using his so called omniscience, he therefore plots the actions and consequences of every quantum of every entity in the scope of universal existence.

What that means is that, while we may think and imagine that we have what we call free choice of action and thought, everything we do, including believing or not believing by the way, is all part of god's master plan. And in fact has, as I said earlier, by simple cause and effect, been plotted since the beginning of time. Everything that happens in life, from the wonderful gifts of charity and benevolence that we see from some people, to the horrible and retched abuses of living beings that we've also been the unwanting witnesses to, can be associated with god.





While I'm writing this I should be writing a paper on a selection from Plato's Theaetetus on the definition of knowledge, in which Sacrates effectively disproves that particular definition of knowledge.



Funny thing is, the contradictory nature of omnipotence doesn't really interest me anywhere near as much as the contradictory nature of the 'omni' prefex itself...

k, now I know why my girlfriend calls me a dork and tells me to shut when I talk about philosophy. Ah, well, what can you do?

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- Lucas ctrlaltdel-online.com

Mr Zen

Nevermind, I'm stupid and didn't realise that the passage was actually the origin of your definition and I just don't know how to read.

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ravenradiodj

Mr. Zen and Mandal, I couldn't agree more.

asaris

Mandal, what you are saying is that God's omnipotence contradicts human free will, because the universe is deterministic, and God set up the starting parameters, right? Correct me if you mean something else.

Well, what I'm trying to say is two-fold. First, if the universe is deterministic through and through, then non-Theists have as much of a problem with free will as Theists; whether or not the starting parameters are just brute facts or were created by God, free will is going to be difficult to defend. Second, I simply reject your picture of the universe as being through and through determined. I believe we have free will (and for non-religious reasons at that), and so we can have a sort of sui generis causality that's not determined by the previous state of the universe. That is, for agent A's free choice between p and ~p at time t, the state of affairs S of the universe at time t-1 does not determine A's choice. There are possible worlds where A chooses p and possible worlds where A chooses ~p, where S obtains at t-1 in all these worlds.

To sum up, your problem as I understand is either a problem regardless of whether or not your're a Christian or not a problem at all.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

martinguerre

*nods

frankly, i live in a world in which i beleve in free will, simply because it is far more interesting than the alternative.

Mr Zen

If wishes had wings... But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

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- Lucas ctrlaltdel-online.com

NegativeNine

Perhaps God doesn't want a perfect world? I don't.

On the topic of his omniscience, perhaps he just seems all knowing from our point-of-view because we're all dumbasses (cosmotheticly speaking[or otherwise ] ). Just as Bill Gates might seem to have an unlimited supply of money to an Etheopian(crappy example, I know...)

mandal

wait.. if the universe is not through determined, that means God doesn't know "everything" and rids him of his "omni"ness

Mr Zen

I don't think you understand the complete scope "all knowing" entails.

My point exactly... Well not exactly, but close enough.

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- Lucas ctrlaltdel-online.com

aKula

What if free will doesn't exist? There was an experiment done in which a person presses a button to stop a spinning 'clock'. They then note the time down in which they had the urge to stop the clock. However measuring brain activity indicates that the brain becomes active (in the areas relevant) before the person gets the urge to stop the clock. I don't think this is entirely conclusive, but it does raise the question, what if free will doensn't exist? Maybe it is just a trick played on us by our own mind?

asaris

Nope, God still knows everything. How you ask? Three answers. One: He just does. He's God, he gets to know everything. Two: He's outside of time, so everything has already happened for him. Three: He causes everything to happen. I'd explain how that's compatible with free will, but I've already done that in another thread, and I need to head to class pretty quick..

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Mr Zen

Oh, I see, halalulya I see the light!

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“Not even Satan would use customer service as a form of punishment”
- Lucas ctrlaltdel-online.com

martinguerre

1. You do have to admit that even trying to enter the possibility of an omnipotent being into a logical equation is somewhat of a error in and of itself. With out any comment on the possibilities of existence of an omnipotent being or free will, to consider the attributes of such concepts places logic at the very boundary of its competence.

2. If you're going to be that sarcastic, at least make an attempt to correctly spell hallelujah.

Mr Zen

Umm... Sorry, I wasn't being sarcastic. I was responding in a joking manner to something that was said in a somewhat joking manner. "He's God, he gets to know everything."

I actually laughed because I thought it was funny...

Anyway, moving on from religion... Wow...

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- Lucas ctrlaltdel-online.com

mandal

nope.. I would have to say that God doesnt exist, or at least not in anyway in which we make him to be.

neutone

That's very noble of you, a shame about your extremely biggoted ideas about homosexuality.

ravenradiodj

I would point out to all those who condemn homosexuality, justifying this condemnation with Leviticus, which calls it an abomination, that Leviticus also says that eating shellfish is an abomination. So a strict interpretation of the Old Testament puts all of us straight people who've been to Red Lobster on the condemned list as well. There's much more in the O.T. along these lines, including a clear indication that it's ok for me to sell my daughter into slavery, but I won't go into it all here.