solaron1

I think Abortion is the third most evil thing that people do. The first being murder, the second being rape.

The moment we get rid of rape, I think abortion should go also. Cuz then we're pretty much dealing with people who like to screw but don't like the after affects.
In a perfect world it would never have existed but now we got crap loads of stuff to deal with. Anway if we were to get rid of it now, women would go back to using hangars on themselves and get dirty doctors to do it for them.

JesusZoidberg

"So quick to judge me as if you know me. I was treated like shit by my father for years, kicked out of the house on numerous occasions. Bad unmotivated parents are a fact of life. But since I was in this situation I guess I had no right to live through it."

You judge others as if you know them. You may have been yelled at by your father, maybe he took away the car, kicked you out of the house. Others don't have the money to fucking eat. Do you think children should be born into the house of say..a crack whore? What chance of a good life would that child have? Maybe his soul would be better suited to come into the world in a happy family.

Cosmo Girl

"Abortion in my opinion is America's genocide, how we can wave the moral banner to the world while it is soaked in our own blood I cannot see."

This scares me...

This issue is very important in america right now and is both a political and religious issue. I think that it is safe to say that the majority of pro-lifers are religious and that is their main argument for it. We cannot interphere in god's miracles, and the like... This is a serious problem when it comes to making laws and deciding what the entire nation should do. Even though Bush is doing a horrible job at it, the church is supposed to be SEPARATE from state. Therefore, this argument of why it should be illegal or condemmed should be thrown out the window right now.

I think is is absolutly disgusting that people can say the sins of the rapist don't justify killing an innocent child and that the women is a horrible person for doing so, when there is a war going on in Iraq that is killing thousands of innocent children because of Saddam's sins. If you support the anti abortion law (in the case of rape) and the iraq war...which the majority of Bush supporters do...you are a hypocrite! What is the difference?

Second of all, lets not forget that government is made up of almost entirly males and that this issue is almost entirely female. It is horrible that religious fanatic men think that they have any right to tell a women what to do with her own body. Rape is a horrible intrusive crime. To force a women to relive it everyday while she goes through a pregnancy and knows that this disgusting, waste of life man's child is growing inside her is unbelievably unfair to her.

Are you pro-life people serously telling me that when a 12 year old virgin is raped and horribly beaten that she should have no other option then to go through a pregnancy and that she will be concidered evil for getting rid of the child?...there is something seriously wrong with that.

I cannot even express how much respect i have for those women who do have children that were a result of rape and can put it behind them and raise the child in a loving home. I admire people who are pro-life when if comes to themselves or their partner. I don't disagree with you, i don't think i could bring myself to have one either. Where i start to get a little angry is when people try to push their views onto others or try to pass laws forbidding any other option. Whatever a women decides to do, it is between her, her conscience and whatever god she has to answer to. Anyone elses opinion, be it government, family, or people posting on a message board, should have absolutly no say in the matter.

Also....in the case of rape, we are not talking about 3rd trimester abortions. In almost all cases the pregnancy will be terminated immediatly with the morning after pill or at most a few weeks later.


Sorry this is so long, but seeing as it's an important issue i wanted to get my opinion out.

1010011010

Forcing a rape victim to give birth to her rapist's child is a politically abhorrent concept. As if forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy until it kills or injures her (and the fetus, possibly). This is why you will always see the loopholes for rape and the life or health of the mother... the arguments against banning abortion in these cases are too powerful and play well to voters.

Suppose you don't have a job that offers maternity leave? Suppose your husband's income alone is not sufficient to pay your bills? What's going to happen to your other children when you lose the house? Do we make a loophole in the abortion ban for this type of situation, too? Who decides if your financial situation is tragic enough?

What if you'll lose your house and job, but you're a single woman? Whose interest is the government representing in these cases?

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Simple Machines in Higher Dimensions

joeshoe

To me, abortion boils down to when you believe life begins. Pro-choicers can keep saying that a unwanted child should not be brought into the world, pro-lifers can keep saying that abortion is murder, but without directly addressing the fundamental belief of when life begins, neither side will change stance at all.

FoolThemAll

I'm against abortion's legality, and I use no part of my religion to argue this position. For what it's worth, I agree that those who argue against abortion on the basis that prenates have souls, do not have a sufficient legal argument.

What I don't understand is how someone could be against the death penalty but for the capital gains tax. Total hypocrites, that's what they are!

This is a war, not elective surgery. Despite any precautions taken, innocent people will almost certainly die in a war. War is sometimes deemed still 'worth it', in spite of this, because the projected benefits exceed projected costs. And that's the general republican/neocon view of the war. This may have been a faulty position to take on the war, I'll grant that possibility, but it's not inconsistent with an anti-abortion view.

The issue is only 'almost entirely female' if you've made up your mind that the prenate is not a human being. Otherwise, it's about 75-25. 50-50 if you're willing to entertain the notion that whether or not a given action is murder is the business of all citizens.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

doncalypso

The way I see it, if a woman has been raped she shoudl not be forced to carry that pregnancy to term because there's no way she'll ever love that baby. And giving that baby up for adoption is not a good solution either because there are countless kids out there who need to be adopted but remain wards of the state or are placed in bad foster homes where they either get neglected or abused.

Rather than make an unwanted child go through all this misery I think it would be best that a woman get the right to choose abortion if she got raped.

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Doncalypso... the one and only Haitian Sensation

Geezus

HEY, I GOT AN IDEA, HOW BOUT' WE STOP HAVING KIDS UNTILL WE HAVE A BETTER WORLD TO BRING THEM INTO. IF WE FAIL, WE'RE FUCKED. POINT BLANK, SIMPLE AS THAT, IF THE WORLD AIN'T WORTH BRING KIDS INTO STOP RUTTING, OR START THE COUNTDOWN TO NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST. WE SEEM TO BE GETTING THE CART BEFORE THE HORSE ON THIS ONE, IF THEIR WERE NO RAPIST AND NO UNWILLING PARENTS THIS WOULDN'T EVEN BE AN ISSUE. AND WHILE I'M DREAMING, LETS CURE ALL DISEASES AND END WAR TOO.

kutulu

My wife and I just had a baby. It was a magical experience and I wouldn't change it if I could, even though I didn't want the baby at first. I saw what pregnancy, delivery, and the postpardom is like first hand. It all sucks but it's worth it if you choose to have it. Look at what a pregnant rape victim has to go through:

Pregnancy brings along with it huge mental, physical, and financial damages. If someone is a rape victim should they have to pay for all that shit? We have good insurance and it's still going to cost over $3000. What if the victim is uninsured or their plan doesn't cover maternity? Do they then declare bankruptcy?

During the pregnancy you have to buy all new clothes, there is another 1k+. After it's over, you might go back to your original size, or you might not. Now you have to pay for another full wardrobe, on top of the huge medical bills. Don't forget about time off work. She probably needs a month off before the baby is born plus a month to recover after the delivery. Can you afford to take two months off without pay, buy two new wardrobe sets, and pay medical expenses? Add in counseling, physical training, etc and getting pregnant via rape can totally ruin your life. Once all that is taken care of your body is physically scarred for life.

If you support forcing a rape victim to carry a baby to term would you also support the state paying for all that shit? If abortion is banned for rape cases, I think the govt would need to pick up all those expenses.

Either way someone's life is going to be ruined. Why not give preference to the one who is actually alive and breathing?

gondath

I think you inflated the costs of just being pregnant by a large margin, but yes, the state should help with the cost should abortions in the event of rape become illegal. It's a rare enough happening that the state can afford it. They already waste a lot more money on far less worthy causes.

sandinista

Cheers to Robaggio (on the first page) for coming up with the one truly intuitive reply to this thread. So far, I've seen nothing else but more of the same.

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"Nature herself makes the wise man rich."
-Cicero

kutulu

By covering the costs, what do you mean? Medical bills? Mental and physical therapy? Time off work? Maternity clothes? These are all costs that would be forced upon victims if they want to get their lives back as much as possible after being impregnated by rape? Furthermore, how do you distinguish between a rape victim and someone attempting to abuse the system?

gondath

That sounds like a good argument to leave the situation to charities. I'm sure there are charities out there who would be more than happy to help. . I suppose the government wouldn't be able to distinguish between just a pregnant woman and a rapd pregnant woman. There are enough women crying rape falsely and abusing the welfare system already. The government can be off the hook for this one. I still think you're trying to make pregnancy sound more expensive than it really is. The situation is still rare enough as it is to warrant almost no consideration when it comes to money.

Mojo_PeiPei

I can see the justification of abortion for rape victims. So that having been said what justification is there for the other 99% of abortions.I really find the mercy killing mentality frightening, revolting actually, It's sad that people actually find life so cheap.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Mantus

wow thefictionweliv, you certainly jumped into a hornet nest. I thank you for your imput on this thread difficult, as it must be to be so outnumbered.

I am too am pro-choice. Yet I have nothing against those who are pro-life. The only people who bother me are those who attempt to force their will on our society and thus ban abortion. The reasons I dislike these people are as follows:

- Abortion is a symptom of a flawed society. Combating abortion is misplacing resources. If people really wanted to stop abortion they would be striving on improving humanity as a whole to such a level where abortion is no longer necessary nor required.

- The ability to abort unwanted children reduces the stress on our social system thus allowing us to allocate funds to more important causes.

- I would rather worry about existing people then potential people. We have enough problems as it is, there are real people that need our assistance and attention. We need to ensure that those who exist are well off and protected before we begin crusading for those yet unborn.

FoolThemAll

I see nothing remotely intuitive about his response.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

SunScar

thefictionweliv - Very well said.... I agree 100%. I would comment more, but it seems you have all bases covered. =)

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Suicide is a permanent solution for a temporary problem....
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datacaliber

In my mind, abortion will never, under any circumstances, be <i>right</i>. Regardless of whether or not the mother believes she made the best choice, she will always wish she never had to make the choice. However, I don't believe that the mere act of having a baby makes the situation <i>right</i> either. What if the child is born to an abusive father, or a teen mother who quits school and becomes an addict?

I think we often forget that the world is not made up of black and white, wrong and right, etc. There is no line. There is <i>wrong</i>, then there is an immeasurable area of greyness, which is where we spend most of our lives in. Right is in another dimension, another universe. I don't say this in an attempt to justify life within the middle, but to point out how truly <b>right</b><i> right</i> is. For me, the act of having a baby is not in itself right. It takes more than that, it takes love and the ability to provide for the kids future. Furthermore, the act of having of abortion is not in itself wrong. It's in that greyness.

Anyways, that's my "moral" take on the issue.

Socially, I think illegalizing abortion is a bad idea. It's not a question of morals, but a question of law. I think that cheating on your wife with your best friend's wife is one of the lowest of the low. I think most people would agree. Why don't we have that codified into law? I'm against drinking, I think it's useless and the fact that it's responsible for so many deaths, many more than abortions, makes me wonder why we haven't outlawed it. Oh yeah, we did and it turned out horrible.

Abortion is not right. Every fiber of my being detests it. I think that this applies to most people, pro-choice and pro-life. However, are we so naive as to believe that passing a law will stop abortions? Are we willing to force the already downtrodden and heartbroken into the shadows to seek counsel? This battle cannot be fought with laws or government. The fight must start at home, with fathers showing their daughters what real men are made of and with mothers teaching their sons how to treat a lady. Then to the community and churches, who must give unexpectant mothers more than the option of being called a whore or a murderer. The State's only job is to make sure that if a woman choses an abortion, it is both sanitary and professionally done.

I'm very much against abortion. Which is why I'm willing to look at the situation critically and honestly. I will not fight blindly just to win the battle and the lose the war.

//Going back to studying
/Rant off

FoolThemAll

Very nice post, data. But I've got to take issue with portions of it.

I'm against making those things illegal because neither violates human rights. Abortion does, and in the vast majority of cases, does so without sufficient justification.

I would agree if this were merely a moral issue, if the issue were deadbeat parents or illicit drug use. But this issue does not only involve the troubled mothers who are considering abortion. This directly involves their children as well, and those children deserve a law.

I'm not naive enough to think that abortion will end after such a law is passed. Nor would I be naive enough to think that a law against adultery would end that practice (if I wanted such a law). Nor am I naive enough to think that rape laws have effectively ended rape. It never works that way. There are always people who will disobey the law either because they think they won't get punished or because they believe in a higher principle which contradicts the law.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

datacaliber

Yeah, I think we just differ on our view on law. I don't think regulations/laws work very well as a preventative measure. Like with rape, I would go one step further and say that I don't think <i>legalizing</i> rape would result in people deciding it's okay. Our laws on sexual equality are the result of sociological changes, not the other way around. Most attempts to supercede this have resulted in failure.

The thing that makes abortion such a hot topic issue is that well, the birth of a child is one of the most miraculous events in life. I mean, it's just about the most important event in anyone's life. It's not something to be taken lightly. This however, cuts both ways. If a woman has decided, against all motherly instincts and feminime emotion, that she will not carry her child to term, I seriously doubt that she will ever decide to change her mind because it's illegal. Never will she say, "Oh, it's illegal? Well then, I guess I'll have my baby. No biggie." It is a huge deal. People break the law to get out of things that are infinately smaller in scope and importance. I mean, everyone has sped to get to work on time, everyone has done something before they were of legal age, imagine how many would break an anti-abortion law...

Oddly enough, I recall reading that it was the AMA that started the whole "Life begins before birth." It was a way of creating a monopoly on abortions, "Only an AMA certified doctor can telll when life begins." At the time, Churches actually gave out abortion inducing drugs. I think it was in a Carl Sagan book.

FoolThemAll

Actually, I think it goes both ways. Our laws effect sociological change and vice-versa. I do think that legalizing rape would significantly increase the instances of rape. But not every able-bodied male would take part in the deed, of course, because the law is only one factor in behavioral influences.

There's one problem I see with this line of reasoning: the penalties for speeding and underage drinking are much less severe. I'd imagine that is a big reason for the huge amount of risk-taking in those areas.

Assuming we were to treat, legally, abortion as we treat infanticide, I don't think your above argument would be nearly as appropriate. Now, if we were to treat it like drug use or even drunk driving...yeah, I could see that.

Whoa, whoa, stop the presses...organized religion did something immoral in the past??

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

datacaliber

I can't say that legalities ever entered into my mind in my continious decision to not commit rape. Nor of anyone I know of. Hell, it's not even a decision really. I think that if legalities ever become a deciding factor, the decision has been made and it's a terrifying one.
Well, I agree with you there to an extent. If we were to deal out harsh sentances for abortion(such as life) and abortion was something that was easily detectable, I think laws would decrease abortion. However, people goto abortion clinics as an optimal choice for safety and comfort. There are many other forms of abortions which cannot be even remotely detected. So even with harsh punishments, I don't think laws could decrease abortion. Plus, I don't think we'd ever get to the point where we would ever deal out harsh punishments. No one wants to see a young girl handcuffed and sent to jail over this. Few people would ultimately be able to stomach it, even pro-lifers. There a world of difference between fighting for verdict and fighting for the punishment. If you asked pro-lifers what the actual punishment should be, I think most would say something minor. Most haven't thought that far because to them, it's a battle for values and sending young girls to prison is not a value.

FoolThemAll

Certainly. A change in the law wouldn't affect most people.

But there are certainly people of a low moral fiber that are only deterred by the belief that they'll get caught and punished.


Most of the time, it's comfort and not safety. 'Comfort' doesn't quite encompass the whole of the reasons I'm referring to, but safety generally has little or nothing to do with it.

And people will give up 'comfort' when they see it as putting themselves in legal danger too large to justify the risk. I know a good number of former potheads who quit because of jobs/marriage/kids, for instance.

As for the harder to detect methods of abortion...we do all that we possibly and Constitutionally can. It wouldn't be the first time that individual rights got in the way of prosecuting criminal acts.

Unfortunately, I think you're correct to some degree in that assertion.

But I'm a pro-lifer, how about I ask myself?

...I'm about as reluctant to send a young girl to jail for an abortion as I am to send a young girl to jail for infanticide.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

he_haha

44 million lost

he_haha

yes, that's millon

projectself

<br>
not sure if you're aware - but abortion is most likely never about 'hate'.

gondath

Yeah, I'm sure it's all about love and selfishness has absolutely nothing at all to do with it.

Zeraph

Let's see, each sperm counts as half a life, and at millions of sperm per ejaculation....uh oh I've killed billions!

filtherton

There's a bill hicks joke in here somewhere.

Zephyr66

If killing a fetus is murder, then how about masturbation, is that murder too? if so, how about nocturnal emissions, are they murder? is menstruation murder? Jesus people, learn when to draw the line, Life starts when the child is emerged into the world.

Hardknock

This is the part where I call complete bullshit. The right wingers want their cake and eat it too. "WE WANT ROE V. WADE OVERTURNED!!!!!" They say.

but I still want access to it just in case my daughter gets raped.

What a fucking crock.

Bush and his cronies need to back the fuck off, and let a woman choose what to do with her own body.

bad jane

i don't understand the rape exception either. i see the point one person made (sorry, forget your name) that their views on abortion are not religious, but that they feel if you make the choice to have sex you take the responsibility for it.

my real question for those who think abortion is wrong except in cases of rape or incest--how are you planning to enforce that? incest cases can be proven with dna, but rape? if there's no bruising are you going to tell the woman she's lying? what if she was drugged or intoxicated at the time and was unable to resist? or what if she was just scared shitless and didn't fight back? plenty of women don't you know--before you tell her she should, think how you'd respond to someone pointing a knife or gun at you, or worse, someone you love.

are you going to force her to press charges against her attacker and only make abortion available once the jury comes back? what if she doesn't know who it is or the police don't find him? investigations and trials take time--what happens if she's got to wait more than the term of her pregnancy for a verdict? or what if she's due to give birth at any moment--are you ok with an abortion since she's proved it was a result of rape?

what if she doesn't want to press charges (not all women do)? abortion isn't an option for her because she can't or won't prove it in court?

to me, this sort of "exception" isn't really an exception at all. it's either a way to make it legal for those who want it bad enough (lie, say you were raped and report an unknown attacker) or a way to prevent it (virtually) entirely because the woman couldn't prove she was raped in time to have an abortion.

and i don't think saying "if your wife were raped" is really a good scenario, let's use "if your 12 year old daughter were raped" instead. an adult woman may be able to understand (even if she doesn't agree) with being forced to go to term with the pregnancy, particularly if she had the support of her spouse. parents forcing a child to explain how she came to be pregnant to all her sixth grade friends (or being seen as a slut to everyone, including strangers on the street) and dealing with the results of that would be a lot more difficult. forcing her to grow up knowing she has a child out there somewhere once it was placed for adoption? or forcing her to be a part of the life of a child she never wanted (either as a parent or a sibling)? how many 12 year old girls are really prepared to make such a decision under any circumstances--but especially after being raped? forcing your young daughter understand and deal with the trauma of rape and the resulting pregnancy? i struggle to imagine forcing a child through that, and i don't have kids!