narf!

Is there a way to cope with it?

CoachAlan

Try asking the question with more than ten words and I'll get back to you.

How do you mean non-existEnce? Do you mean that people don't pay attention to you? Do you mean that you are communicating to us from beyond the grave? Do you mean it in the sense that none of us really exist, that we are merely the sum of our parts and free will is an illusion?

All are valid interpretations of your question. All have different responses which may or may not be helpful to you. I'm personally hoping it's the last option, because that's something I'd really like to speak on.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

MageB420666

Well, actually the really obvious answer to the question is:

If you don't exist, you don't have to worry about coping with it, YOU DON'T EXIST TO COPE WITH IT!

__________________
Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.

Willravel

I suppose it's kinda funny. Actually non-existance is reality. Matter, in truth, only TENDS to exist. It's a bit complecated to explain, but essentially most quantum theorys point to matter not being totally consistant. Oh wait, this is philosophy. What is it to cope? Is it to accept something or just to understand it? What is non-existance in terms of acceptance or copeing? In order to either accept something or understand it, you must have something to accept or understand. Uh oh. Smoke coming out of the ears again. Be back later.
What is mind, is it matter? What is mater? Nevermind.

Unright

I suppose the only way of coping with non-existence would be denial.

wilbjammin

Rebellion.

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Innominate.

whocarz

Masturbation.

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If there exists anything mightier than destiny, then it is the courage to face destiny unflinchingly. -Geibel

Despise not death, but welcome it, for nature wills it like all else. -Marcus Aurelius

Come on, you sons of bitches! Do you want to live forever? -GySgt. Daniel J. "Dan" Daly

MSD

The thread starter seems to have ceased to exist. This thread is destined for a trip to nonsense pretty soon unless content and discussion start to exist.

Zdragva

willravel...... omg, matter doesnt tend to exist or spread out or any of that rubbish you claim. matter is matter. problem is no one is entirely sure what matter IS. matter can behave like energy at times but its still matter, it can do weird things in the location of large forces etc. but its still matter, it still exists, fully. im sorry to say this but you are using what u think you know about quantum mechanics as an answer when uv got the science wrong in the first place. you say it tends to exist? by this ull be meaning what exactly? objects not being where science thinks they are or matter flittering in and out of existance? the first is possible the 2nd not, matter can freely exchange with energy and can appear from empty space and dissapear into empty space but the overall laws of science are preserved as the space gains some energy, indeed usually gravitational energy, or the space loses energy, again usually gravitational to 'make' or 'unmake' matter. also empty space itself is a jumble of things appearing and disappearing but while they are there as matter they ARe matter in the fullest sense and dont behave like they dont exist, oh no, the fully interact as theyre supposed to, or as they should if the scientists say somethings wrong (its their sums) no quantum mechanics looks to allow extremly weird behaviour in science but all matter IS matter, untill its not

ARTelevision

Please work to compose stream-of-consciousness prose into something resembling rational discourse. That's how it's done here.

Otherwise, it appears to be a rant. And that's not how it's done here.

Thanks.

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create evolution

Zdragva

yeah well u talk about rationall discourse, i was just pointing out that matter exists, and in some form or other always will exist, even if its at the bottom ofa blackhole or its all decayed into a mess of neutrons or whatever.

hannukah harry

i'd like to hear what the coach has to say about non-existance that he eluded to wanting to discuss.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

CoachAlan

You got it! But I have to get up early for school tomorrow, so you can look forward to my musings when I return...

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

CoachAlan

All right...

It's my belief that we don't actually exist in the classic sense. That is to say that there is no spirit, no essence. We are simply the sum of our parts, no different from a machine.

My main premise is that our thoughts come from within our brains. Inside our brains, there are certain chemical reactions taking place, and these reactions are subject to physical law. Being subject to physical law, the reactions are also subject to predictability. If we knew everything that went in to the input, then we could predict the outcome.

Our actions seem unpredictable, they seem random, but they really aren't. They're actually chaotic. Much like the roll of the dice. A person can't predict how a roll will turn out, but with enouch information, he/she could. If he/she know the force applied to the dice, the intial position of the dice, the condition of the table, the forces of the air, etc., it would be entirely possible to predict how the dice will land.

So it is with the human mind. It works via entirely physical processes which, if we had enough information, would be totally predictable. However, because the amount of information we would need is seemingly infinite, we are given the impression that we actually have a choice in our actions, that we have free will.

To sum it up: Free will is an illusion, existence is an illusion. We are the sum of our parts.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

hannukah harry

you know what's funny, coach? this girl i used to work with told me basically the same theory last summer... and she was hot.

/irrelevant, but i like hotties.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

asaris

CoachAlan -- then why does it seem like we have free will? Why does it seem like we exist?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Willravel

You're an ass. This whole post is rubbish, by your standards. The original question is 'is there a way to cope with non-existance'. It's okay to read a question meant to be kind of funny and not serious, and give an answer that is kind of funny and not serious. Did you also believe that there was actually smoke coming out of my ears? I really hope that's not your next 'correction' of my post.

I am well enough versed in the quantum theory's surrounging matter and the basic principles of its existance. So no thanks on that lesson.

Another lesson you might look into is development of a sense of humor. I hope you have better luck in those studies. Lesson one should include how intellectual elitism can keep you from having friends.

Unright

Damn, that was oddly reminicient of one of my favorite 'segments' in the movie Waking Life. I forgot about until now. Thanks!

CoachAlan

Glad yo guys enjoyed the post (at least harry and Unright). This is something I've spent a lot of time contemplating, and I even have a book idea centered around it.

asaris - it seems like we have free will because our outcomes are sufficiently chaotic as to give them the illusion of being unnatural -- of being something more than a stimulus response. My argument that we don't exist is merely one of semantics.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

asaris

But that's not true -- my actions don't seem random at all to me. It seems to me that I choose to do something and then do it.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

CoachAlan

It's the "choosing" itself that is the illusion. I am no more choosing to write this post than a calculator chooses to display "4" when you type in "2+2=." It may look like choice, but you're really just an input/output device. Albeit a very complex one.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

asaris

CoachAlan, what you are explaining is why it seems to me that you have free will -- I see your choices, and they look like choices, but indeed, as you say, the apparent 'randomness' might well just be apparent. But this doesn't explain at all why it seems to me that when I 'choose' something, it seems like I could have chosen otherwise. I know how it feels when I make a more or less random choice -- like when I'm trying to decide between Coke and Lemonade and just grab one; or like Buridan's ass, which presumably would just go to one of the bales of hay. I also know how it feels when I'm compelled to do something. But reasonable often, my action seems to me to be the result, not of some compulsion or of some randomness, but rather of my choice. And this you have not explained.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

CoachAlan

Imagine that you have two chemicals in a dish. You put them together and a reaction takes place. A simple chemical reaction. Given enough information about the temperature, the state of the reactants, and so on, one can predict the outcome of that reaction. Even if we don't have the knowledge to predict precisely its outcome, I think we can all agree that there is a physical process going on that obeys certain physical laws, and is at least theoretically predictable.

Now move that chemical reaction from the dish to your brain. Where axon meets dendrite, the same sorts of reactions are taking place. Each of these reactions follows physical law. Each of them depends on a stimulus to generate a defined response... Maybe somebody touches your shoulder, which stimulates the nerve endings there to send a signal to your brain, which goes through a series of chemical reactions which ultimately lead to you turning your head.

Every step of the way, every single process involved is subject to physical law. Which also means that every single process is subject to predictability. I'm not saying that we could predict it. I'm simply saying that it's not a choice. It's a reaction. The amoeba thinks it's choosing to move toward the light, but it's just a simple stimulus response. As is you turning your head, choosing coke, or responding to this post.

If a+b=c in a chemical reaction in a dish, a+b=c when that reaction occurs in your brain as well. "C" is not free will. It's the sum of a and b, and nothing more.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

asaris

Still haven't answered my question; why, then, if all that's going on are (albeit complex) chemical reactions, why does it seem like I have free will?

Or, to ask a slightly different question, why does it seem like there's a me at all?

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

hannukah harry

asaris, let me see if i can help explain. when my friend brought this up to me, what it basically came down to is this... we are creatures of experiance. we are born with blank slates, but everytime something happens to us, we see something, hear something, experiance something, it keeps adding up to our initial hardwiring. so one day, when you've got a choice, you may seem to have free will, you may even try to think about what choice you're gonna make, but you make your choice based on everything else that's happened in your life. all of the neuropathways and whatnot that form in your brain make it so that you don't really have a choice, you do as your programmed.

maybe a good way to think of it is that you're a perpetual motion machine... you're always moving. the path you go down isn't exactly "predetermined", but your path is set by your previous experiances and is affected by outside obsticles. you don't have control over teh obsticles, and your response is made based on previous experiance.

2+2=4

car accident caused by rain + bad weather = concious (sp) choice not to drive unless no other choice (not the best example, but i think it works).

oh, and the reason it seems there's a "you" is because no one else has the exact same experiance. no one else has the same parents, same family life, friends, genetic structure... so that's why you're "you" in the individual sense... if you mean more of why do you seem to have conciousness and freewill, well, that's more indepth than i've ever thought about it.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

CoachAlan

Because you are mistaken? That would be my contention. It seems like you have free will because you are under the illusion that you are not an automaton. It seems like there is a you at all because our mind has to but labels and boundaries on things to make them easier to understand.

Buddhists can tell you that there is no seperate self. All is one. You are made up of entirely non-you things: carrots, ketchup, sunshine, rain, etc. That is to say that the things of which you are literally made (the things you eat, drink, breathe, etc.) are all not you. Just as the carrot, from which part of you is made, is in turn made from the soil, the sun, the air, the effort of the farmer, and so on.

All is one. With a different perspective, it doesn't "seem like there's a me at all." Buddhists spend a great deal of time trying to get past the illusion of "self."

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

asaris

It seems like I have free will because I am mistaken? I'm afraid that's not a reason. You say "our mind has to but[sic] labels and boundaries on things...", but you don't explain either why there is mind at all, why it has to put labels on things, and why part of this putting labels on things involves convincing me that there's a me. In fact, if there is no me, there's no me for the mind to convince that I'm me. And that's just contradictory.

Harry -- yes, "if you mean more of why do you seem to have conciousness and freewill, well, that's more indepth than i've ever thought about it." -- that's precisely my question.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

hannukah harry

eh, guess i'm no help then. oh well.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

CoachAlan

1) Why is there mind at all?
...I thought this was self-evident. We have a mind because the ability to think is an evolutionary advantage. Plenty of creatures have minds. Dogs, for example. As humans, we developed more complex minds over time that have subsequently enabled us to have deep conversations like these. Why is there a mind? Ask Darwin.

2) Why does the mind have to put labels on things?
...Because that's the way the brain stores information. We see a book, and the brain labels it "book." We see a table, and the brain labels it "table." We need these labels and distinctions so we don't knock over the table when we're trying to pick up the book.

3) Why does the mind convince you that there is a you?
...Again, for reasons of survival and simplicity, it's important to be able to distinguish between "you" and "non-you" objects. Hand = you. Fire = non-you. If we couldn't tell the difference between the two, we'd get burned a lot. Also, when somebody asks you your name, it's much easier for everyone involved if you can say, "My name is asaris," instead of "What are you talking about? There is no Me to name."

The problem, and I think this is where our difference lies, is that people don't look past the superficial labeling that is useful in everyday life. We fail to see our intrinsic interconnectedness and sameness. We fail to realize, as was my original contention, that the concepts of "self" and "free will," while useful for getting through the day, are simply constructs of a very powerful mind trying to navigate through complicated world. They are no more real than the number phi.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

asaris

I think you misunderstand what I mean by 'mind'. I don't mean the ability to think, I mean the identity of an ego. It is far from clear that there needs to be a 'me', a consciousness, in order to do any of the things you describe. Why is it an evolutionary benefit for me to be able to 'decide' to commit suicide, for example?

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

CoachAlan

So are we simply arguing from the same side? Because my premise is that there doesn't need to be a "me." My premise is that, in fact, there isn't a me. And plenty of people would argue that eliminating the ego is essential to an enlightend life (the Buddha, for example).

I think we actually agree. You say that "It is far from clear that there needs to be a 'me'... in order to do any of the things you describe." I say that "There is no spirit, no essence. We are simply the sum of our parts." We're in agreement here. I won't defend the human tendency of clinging to the ego. I agree with you that it's unnecessary.

Regarding the question at the end of your post, I don't know that it's still valid, considering we agree (unless I'm WAY off in my understanding of your post). I'll try to answer it anyway:
...I would guess that it's a side-effect of a reasoning mind. We can contemplate our own mortality. We can guess at the future. This ability to infer our future, the same one that allows us the foresight to plant crops every year, will sometimes allow the conclusion that the future is one better left unlived. The myriad benefits of our ability to predict and reason far outweigh the rarity of suicide.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain

Unright

I think the best way to understand Coach Alan's thoery is to observe an animal for a little lenght of time.

A cat may eat, play, sleep, hunt, defecate, etc.. but does it have a mind, an ego? Not really, it's just responding to built-in instinct and a memory of past events. My cat remembers me and the fact that I feed it every morning, so every morning it sits by it's dish (where the food is always placed) and meows at me (attention-getting) to get it's food.

Humans are much the same way in several ways. My body is low on energy so I get hungry. I get up to look at available food. I see an apple and some chips. The visual cues trigger a memory of what nutrients I could possibly intake from either one. My body craves salt, so I go with the chips. Did I make a free choice, or was my decision ordained by chemicals in my brain seeking my survival?

A while back (admittedly while I was depressed) I came to the theory that only acts of self-destruction could prove the existence of free will. Any thought on that?

hannukah harry

i would think that wouldn't necessarily be so... if the body can destroy itself with cancer, why can't self-destructive acts be behavior's version of cancer?

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

CoachAlan

I'm with you, harry. Just because it's self-destructive, doesn't mean it's free will. I'm sure there are many heroin addicts who will attest that they don't feel like they are destroying themselves of their own volition.

Other than that, unright, I think you have demonstrated a very good example for my point. Thanks for taking the time to post.

__________________
"If I cannot smoke cigars in heaven, I shall not go!"
- Mark Twain