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Old 07-30-2004, 06:06 PM   #1 (permalink)
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What came 1st, the chicken or the egg

From my experience, everything has had a beginning or being born period to their life. The thing that i want to know is how did the 1st spark of life begin? How was something born from nothing? it seems that all there sould be is blackness. Where did the 1st piece of dust come from or anything. I personally like to call that 1st spark of life God. And to me God is Life. God is all encompassing One. God is all of time and all of existence. And i feel that i am God also but only as a tiny drop of water in a very large ocean. God is Love. But i couldn't say for certain that God was a thinking entity. So what i'm really wondering is how God was born. Does God have parents? Does God wonder or even know where he came from? Do other Gods exist above our God and chuckle as they watch him chuckle over us. And if so how were they born? The best answer i can get is that the human mind can't comprehend. Or maybe it's just my human mind. How can something just always be? What came 1st, the chicken or the egg?
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Old 07-30-2004, 06:23 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I'll just tell you, I respect your belief, opinion, and your curiosity.

But it is my opinion that it is fruitless to try and solve this, or even debate it. We can all have our own point of view, but the simple fact is that this can never be truly answered. Even though it may be answered in the mind of the individual, it can never be proven, and that is all that can satiate some.

But to contradict myself, the individual proving something to themselves, ultimately and fully, may be all that is necessary.

As for my perspective on the subject, I do believe that their is a God, and that He is responsible for our existence, and the existence of all that we know. I do believe that He Himself is an unidentifiable and unexplainable entity, whose origin we were never supposed to know or comprehend. And that is good enough for me.
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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You can guess but you will never possess knowledge of God. No one can. Though it's not all in vain, you can discover allot about yourself though the pursuit of God.
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Old 07-30-2004, 09:44 PM   #4 (permalink)
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It seems to me that the existence of God is highly unlikely.
It also seems that the Universe arising out of nothing is highly unlikely.
It also seems to me that the Universe having always existed is highly unlikely.
It's all pretty damn unlikely. My mental exercises of this type lie in determining which is the LEAST unlikely. As Sherlock Holmes said, "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth." My estimation is there is no God, the Universe has always existed, and that it's infinitely large.

...But don't ask me to back that up!
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Old 07-31-2004, 05:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it."
John 1 verses 1-5

Ok, I am done preaching, but I think this sums up pretty well what I think God must be (to really be God that is). You can look out at the universe before us, seemingly still expanding to the outer reaches of what we can see and even farther detect, and marvel at what *is*. But, you have to ask yourself "How did this come to be? Was there a beginning? Are there borders?"
Think for a moment what something outside the universe must be. Position is obviously nonsensical to ascribe to something outside the universe, as is size. Even the concept of "space" is a property of our universe, and time.
If the universe did have a beginning, if at one point it simply 'was' (talking about the universe not existing at a point in time is nonsensical) then it seems illogical by the standards of the universe for it just to start existing. If the universe was constructed it would have to have been by something outside the constrains of the creation, e.g. God.

Of course, this explanation has certain problems. For instance, the universe runs by cause and effect. The rules of the universe say that it cannot just start, it would need a cause to be an effect. However, without the universe there are no rules of logic. There is no time, there is no space, even the concept of existance needs to be thrown out the window. Trying to apply logic to something outside the universe is illogical.

So... thats it. If the universe just began at some point in time, then the "egg" could be thought of as something outside the realm of the universe. But this is a poor example because it attempts to put time and existance, elements of the universe, outside itself.
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Old 07-31-2004, 11:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Well it certainly seems likely that there was a cause that started the big bang, which is external to our universe, and therefore in principle entirely unknowable to us.

You could of course define god to be this force, if you so choose; it's just a label after all. But such an argument does not hold much water as a proof of the existence of "God" in the usual religious sense of the word that is normally debated. I could define God to be a ham sandwich and it would then be a trivial matter to show that god exists.

Put in others terms, you may have suceeded in proving the existence of "god" (whatever that might be) but you are even worse off than before when it comes to ascribing to him all of the properties theists know and love: God is all powerful, God is conscious, God is the ultimate source of all morality, God is all good, God knows all, God is all loving, God loves you, God has bestoyed upon us (and other living creatures?) an eternal soul, God will reward (some of?) us with an afterlife, God is the entire universe. God created the world with the full intention of us inhabiting it, God explicitly designed us, God partakes in divine revelation...etc etc etc. the list of attributes often ascribed to god goes on...

(I am not implying that all theists, believe all of these attributes apply, just most believe that some do.)

Now that we have seen this, we have to examine our motivations for defining the first cause as "God" in the first place. The word has too much implied baggage. Perhaps a less extravagant word is required? The First Physical Cause, seems to be a much better fit, and much less likely to cause untoward confusion.

NOTE: Some people might make the claim, that we need to answer what caused the First Physical Cause. After all, we had an answer (god), and I am after taking that answer away, leaving us back at square one. But hopefully you can see that you never really had an answer in the first place, just a label which has been replaced with something less ostentatious.
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Old 07-31-2004, 03:12 PM   #7 (permalink)
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As John Lennon said,"God is a concept" It is a tool to define your world. Since recorded history people have had different names for it but they all have one thing in common. A way to explain existence. Even people who don't believe in God have a God. It is the belief that there is no God. I just use the word God or Life because that is my religion and my way of seeing the world. My mind is my existence and universe.

i suppose it is impossible to use logic for a question like this and it is an unanswerable question. you will always come back in a circle. But to me it is the most important question there is. The moment of life is the apex of our universe. that second or infinity is everything. it's what i am right now. I feel that Love is the key.
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Old 07-31-2004, 08:16 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Search yourself, keep an open mind as well as an open heart, and question your beliefs. I don't believe in anyone universal truth to the matter; find your truth and live the best life you can.

My existence is divine enough for me - I live my life the best way possible and I stay more than willing to embrace whatever truth there may be.
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Old 08-02-2004, 02:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
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It's hard to get my mind around, how big the universe is, and the possibility that it had always been there. They had to come up with a theory because they just couldn't accept that something had always existed and always will. There was always life and will always be a spark of it left.
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:24 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mel
It's hard to get my mind around, how big the universe is, and the possibility that it had always been there. They had to come up with a theory because they just couldn't accept that something had always existed and always will. There was always life and will always be a spark of it left.
Well I presume by "they" you are referring to the scientific community.
It is worth noting that pre-Hawking the generally accepted version of events was a "steady-state" universe; one that had always existed and one that always will.
The big bang theory was opposed mainly because the motivations behind those pushing it the most were largely religious. (Until Hawking and Penrose came along and did the mathematical work behind it and showed that it could in fact work, and there is plenty of evidence for it today)

So claiming that the big-bang theory is merely scientists trying to get around a problem which is apparently adequately explained by religion is wonderfully ironic.
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Old 08-03-2004, 06:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
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CSflim, add that one to the list of brilliant observations... You're a credit to this forum.
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Old 08-03-2004, 10:02 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I'm just gonna vote for the chicken, cause there warm and tasty, and it's too late for me to really make any sense to anyone but myself...
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Old 08-03-2004, 11:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Pff this is easy, lizards were laying eggs long before chickens were even around. So the egg came first (avoid all the psychological speaking).
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Old 08-04-2004, 04:53 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Chicken-Like Creature -> Egg -> Mutated Chicken-Like Creature That is a Chicken.

Since the egg contained the Mutated Chicken-Like Creature, the egg came first, but it didn't come from a chicken.
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Old 08-07-2004, 01:57 PM   #15 (permalink)
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we can't grasp life because it's out of bounds of our frame of thought and comprehension.

however, timeless infinity IS within our frame of thought and comprehension as long as you do not try to draw it.

Just because our lives are limited, does not mean that everything in this plane of existance (note i do not say universe) has a timeline with a creation or an endpoint.
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Old 08-07-2004, 02:07 PM   #16 (permalink)
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ManWithAPlan: Well said!

In our experience in this universe we notice patterns of regularity between various events. The whole of science could be viewed as an effort to extract and formalise these regularities the underly these events.

One of these regularities, which we have uncovered through the usual inductive process is the idea of cause and effect, which orders connected events in some manner in time.
Just as we would not deem it necessary that the law of gravity holds "outside" our universe (whatever that means), it is equally fallicious to insist without argument that the Big Bang (or whatever is the true origin of the universe), necessarily has a cause.
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Old 08-08-2004, 03:14 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Well, if you go with evolution, the egg. Laid bysomething not a chicken, but what ended up as a chicken. If you go with God just went poof, hear you are, then well, it's hard to tell. He had to make a chicken, yes, but did he make a few eggs for them to sit on at the same time? But if you ask me, I say neither. It was the rooster.
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:24 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by basmoq
I'm just gonna vote for the chicken, cause there warm and tasty,
In that case I'll take the egg, cause I love em sunny side up.

That was uncalled for, but I've been around this old ball of dirt quite a while now, thinking about, and discussing this topic has always been one of my favorites. I've come to the conclusion that I'll never figure it out, don't really believe any of us will. So now although I still enjoy the subject, I just sit back and listen. Except of course in instances where I just can't help myself!
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Old 08-12-2004, 01:52 PM   #19 (permalink)
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In time people will look back on the way we talk about beginings and ends (not to mention so many other things) and say, "silly humans." Then they will dance.
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Old 08-12-2004, 06:23 PM   #20 (permalink)
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but if you think about it, the answer of the question isn't that important if you take the standpoint of "cosmic coincident". Why did organims appear on earth? because out of chance, a mixture of material through chance can perpetuate its existance thus we see organism today. no matter how improbable the first sign of life is, as it happens, it will continue as life in its fundemental sense is a setting of molecules that can produce more of the same sets of molecule thus staying around longer. So i think it doesn't matter if there was a chicken or an egg first as earth is only one of so many planets in the universe, we just happened to have the chance to have a set of molecules that survived til now with the ability to change. Essentially, this point of view removes oneself from the caussual point of view and instead embrace the expository point of view. Of course what you say involving God has been thought out by early christian philosopher such as St. Augustine// like his idea of the "first mover" being God. the cause and effect is no doubt a way to justify god in ones mind. Just not mine
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