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CSflim · 07-31-2004, 11:28 AM

Well it certainly seems likely that there was a cause that started the big bang, which is external to our universe, and therefore in principle entirely unknowable to us.

You could of course define god to be this force, if you so choose; it's just a label after all. But such an argument does not hold much water as a proof of the existence of "God" in the usual religious sense of the word that is normally debated. I could define God to be a ham sandwich and it would then be a trivial matter to show that god exists.

Put in others terms, you may have suceeded in proving the existence of "god" (whatever that might be) but you are even worse off than before when it comes to ascribing to him all of the properties theists know and love: God is all powerful, God is conscious, God is the ultimate source of all morality, God is all good, God knows all, God is all loving, God loves you, God has bestoyed upon us (and other living creatures?) an eternal soul, God will reward (some of?) us with an afterlife, God is the entire universe. God created the world with the full intention of us inhabiting it, God explicitly designed us, God partakes in divine revelation...etc etc etc. the list of attributes often ascribed to god goes on...

(I am not implying that all theists, believe all of these attributes apply, just most believe that some do.)

Now that we have seen this, we have to examine our motivations for defining the first cause as "God" in the first place. The word has too much implied baggage. Perhaps a less extravagant word is required? The First Physical Cause, seems to be a much better fit, and much less likely to cause untoward confusion.

NOTE: Some people might make the claim, that we need to answer what caused the First Physical Cause. After all, we had an answer (god), and I am after taking that answer away, leaving us back at square one. But hopefully you can see that you never really had an answer in the first place, just a label which has been replaced with something less ostentatious.

07-31-2004, 11:28 AM	#6 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	Well it certainly seems likely that there was a cause that started the big bang, which is external to our universe, and therefore in principle entirely unknowable to us. You could of course define god to be this force, if you so choose; it's just a label after all. But such an argument does not hold much water as a proof of the existence of "God" in the usual religious sense of the word that is normally debated. I could define God to be a ham sandwich and it would then be a trivial matter to show that god exists. Put in others terms, you may have suceeded in proving the existence of "god" (whatever that might be) but you are even worse off than before when it comes to ascribing to him all of the properties theists know and love: God is all powerful, God is conscious, God is the ultimate source of all morality, God is all good, God knows all, God is all loving, God loves you, God has bestoyed upon us (and other living creatures?) an eternal soul, God will reward (some of?) us with an afterlife, God is the entire universe. God created the world with the full intention of us inhabiting it, God explicitly designed us, God partakes in divine revelation...etc etc etc. the list of attributes often ascribed to god goes on... (I am not implying that all theists, believe all of these attributes apply, just most believe that some do.) Now that we have seen this, we have to examine our motivations for defining the first cause as "God" in the first place. The word has too much implied baggage. Perhaps a less extravagant word is required? The First Physical Cause, seems to be a much better fit, and much less likely to cause untoward confusion. NOTE: Some people might make the claim, that we need to answer what caused the First Physical Cause. After all, we had an answer (god), and I am after taking that answer away, leaving us back at square one. But hopefully you can see that you never really had an answer in the first place, just a label which has been replaced with something less ostentatious. __________________ Last edited by CSflim; 07-31-2004 at 11:30 AM..