Jesus Pimp

I was flipping through the channels late last night and came accross the 700 club television show. They were discussing how all the signs with the current war are pointing to the end times. It really disturbed me that they could make such a bold statement on national television. It gave me a good laugh too. Christians everywhere actually believe this crap? What do you think?

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SecretMethod70

No. A few (crazy) Christians everywhere actually believe this crap. If I had to quantify it, I'd say 97% of Christians don't believe any of it.

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Charlatan

We have been living in the end of days since the book of Revelation predicted it would occur in something like 200CE.

There are always "signs" that can be interpreted to put the fear of God into people. It's good for boosting the congregation numbers (and the bottom line).

(edited for typo... BCE was supposed to be CE)

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asaris

Ahem...the book of Revelation was written (probably) around 90 CE. So even if one reads it as predicting the Apocalypse, it wouldn't be one around 200 BCE. [edit:] reading SecretMethod's post again, I wanted to add something to clarify. It is certainly true that, since Christ's resurrection, we are living in the end times. The kingdom of God is 'already/not-yet'. It's here on earth, but still to come; to simplify, it's here, but it's not here in its fullness. Nevertheless, I use the phrase "end times" to refer to a relatively short period of time just before the second coming of Christ.

And SecretMethod -- while I agree that probably only a very small number of Christians think that the end times are "almost certainly" coming within our life time, there's probably a sinificantly greater number who thinks that there will be 'end times', just that we don't know when they're coming.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Aletheia

Uhh, the 700 club is hardly christians everyplace. I say it is bull. The world isn't ending anytime soon.

Paradise Lost

I think because of its vagueness that whenever something
huge comes along everyone thinks its the end of the world.

Halley's Comet in 1066, Solar Eclipses, people think all kinds
of weird things bring about the end of the world... Who's right?
Probably that fat kid in the 3rd row.

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djtestudo

The Mayans predicted some sort of "rebirth" in the year 2012, which is the year where they ended their calender. I'm waiting on that, personally.

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SecretMethod70

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that very few Christians believed that there would be some sort of "end times," just that very few believe that it is imminent. That is all.

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Le temps détruit tout

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asaris

Just, for those who might possibly care, my position is that it could be imminent. We just don't know one way or the other. It's just as false to say "Well, it hasn't happened for 2000 years, so it won't happen any time soon" as to say "Well, it's been 2000 years, so it's gotta be coming soon."

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Stompy

The book of revelations is all an illusion, IMO, just like Nostradamus.

It's all a play on words to the point where a million and one things can fit what's being said, all depending on how it's interpreted.

For example...

When the first seal is broken, the Book of Revelations shows that Jesus Christ (sent by the Word) is able to make His appearance among men and to ride His white horse -- a steed called 'Integrity' -- across the earth. With His arm in full swing, He brings a sword, not peace to the planet, and victoriously cuts a path of righteousness wherever He goes. See Rev. 6:1

Clearly that refers to Gandalf the White and Shadowfax. Hello! Lord of the Rings movies are in the top 10 of all time! The second, third, and fouth seals could all be referring to Sauron and the Ringwraiths.

In all seriousness, you can take ANY revelation and always apply it to SOMETHING going on in current events. You could've done it back in 1945 when the ABombs were dropped on Nagasaki and Hiroshima.. a common theme is fire, the sea, flame, yadda yadda. I could even apply them to Mortal Kombat if I so desired.

That's the illusion of them... they "seem" to always fit in with what's going on in the world.

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SecretMethod70

also agreed, I just think that things such as what's presented on 700 Club etc are dangerous embellishments of the fact.

Regarding Revelations, I have heard more than once (but not looked into it to any significant degree) speculation that it is more of a cryptic book referencing the Roman Empire. Considering it was written at a time when Christianity was persecuted, that's very possible, and in which case, it would not be a book necesasrily about the "end times" at all.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Crack

It ends for someone almost every min of every day... Could yours be tonight? That, my dear friends is what keeps the unwashed masses in line. Fear of punishment in the afterlife for the deads they have gotten away with in this life. So sad is their existence...

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Aletheia

Good point. We don't really know.

Aletheia

Wait what? What are you going on about? Not every christian fears death or punishment in the afterlife.

Giltwist

Biblical historians have pointed out that Paul thought the end times would come in his life time. Just remember, in a Christian context, no man will know the time or the place of His coming. He will come as a thief in the night, etc etc.

Averett

Me too...

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TheKak

If the world "ends", it won't be because of religious supernatural acts, it will be because of nuclear (or more powerful yet undiscovered) weapons.

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sprocket

This is what I was taught as well. Because of its dramatic, mystic sounding passages people somehow got this notion that revelations is a book predicting the future. Its not (at least thats not what the catholic church teaches). Its exactly as you said, codified text that was written during a time when openly admitting you were christian would get you killed. No spooky prophecies here.

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Lebell

This Christian couldn't have said it any better.

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Jesus Pimp

The 3% must have a lot of money then.

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Stompy

Hm, that's kinda confusing.

97% of Christians don't believe it? Isn't the book of revelations part of the bible? Why do they disregard THAT, but nothing else?

Is it well known in the church that the book of revelations "doesn't count" or something, but the other stuff does?

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asaris

It's not that the Book of Revelations doesn't count, but that we disagree on how to interpret it. IMHO, it's probably more about the life of a Christian than some end times. Another reasonable interpretation is that it was written to give hope to Christians facing torment -- see, this too shall pass, and there shall be a new heaven and a new earth. But Revelations is a difficult book to interpret, and I'd be hesitant to say too much more. It's part of the ancient genre of apocalyptic literature, and since that genre doesn't exist anymore, it's hard to say what a piece in that genre means without a good deal of study.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Lebell

Exactly, asaris.

To fundamentalists who interpret the Bible literally, everything from Genesis to Revelation happened or happens exactly as written.

For the rest of us, part of the challenge of our faith is figuring out what the meaning of the text is.

And just like we don't believe there was a 7 day creation, we don't believe that there will be a "Beast" and armageddon.

Most modern theologans do think that Revelations refers to the trials that the early Christians experienced under the Romans.

So yes, there is truth there, but it has to be dug out.

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Crack

Is that not what keep the majority of the "Belivers" in the pews every Sunday and sometimes on Wednesday? Fear of hell, not the reward of Heaven?

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MSD

What keeps people in the pews (this does not include me) is belief that God created us, gave us life, gave us everything, and that an hour (sometimes two) per week and nightly prayers is the least they can do to thank him. A bit of fire and brimstone doesn't hurt chucrch attendance, though.

raeanna74

What I find to be ironic is while these people devoutly believe that the coming of Christ is imminent their scripture tells them otherwise.

"Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as YE THINK NOT the Son of man cometh" (Mat. 24:44).
"But of that day and hour KNOWETH NO MAN, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Mat. 24:36).

So as long as they think Christ is coming, anytime they give a specific day or hour, we can be certain that they are wrong. According to their Bible it will happen when they think it won't happen.

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crow_daw

Like Stompy said, all the texts could be twisted and turned to fit any situation by any group of people who would have it as such.
Prophecies are in the eye of the beholder.

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Amarth

I don't know if I believe it or not, but if I had to pick a time for the world to end, I'd say 12/23/2013. I know why, but I'm sure there's someone else who can explain it much better than I can, so please do as soon as you read this.

HammerHand

From what I have read, the book of revelations isn't written for the Christians at all, except for the letters to the seven churches. After that part, the Church isn't mentioned again. I checked it out. From what I was told by a really zealous Christian guy and his friends, Revelations is like a repeat of the book of Daniel from the jewish Old Testament, and it's written for the Jews, because the Believing Christians are all going to be lifted away into the clouds in a thing called the "Rapture" before the "Tribulation" which, I guess, is like the last seven year period on earth before Christ comes back and all hell is breaking loose.
From what these guys tell me, and they are pretty adamant about it and have the whole scenario figured out- The Jews sign some sort of peace treaty with the Anti-Christ, which is like the Devil, pretending to be a man, or inhabiting the body of a man or something, and then the Anti-Christ brings Peace to the middle east. Now all the Christians are gone-snatched away, so nobody can blow the whistle on this guy. But something happens and ther Jews realise that the Anti-Christ is the Devil, and then something else happens and they realize Christ is their Messiah and then they start preaching and then people start becoming Chiristians again and the Ant-Christ starts murdering them by the millions and then theres some big, giant war in the middle east and Russia and China and all the European and African and western countries get involved and the whole world is on the brink of annihilation, and Christ returns and stops it all and sets up shop and judges everybody and has his Kingdom for a Thousand years.
But they are adamant to the point of faces going red that the world does not end! it gets to the brink, but doesn't end.
So like, Revelations is Daniel and Ezekiel from the Old Testament and it's a Jewish book. Not meant for the Christians at all. That what I am told by the christians I meet that are really into this stuff.

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tecoyah

In the year 2012, a small disturbance in the magnetic field of the Earth was felt by a humble man livivg at the north pole. Mr. Clause immediately recognized the fluctuation as a sign , fortold by mother nature well over 52,000 years gone.
Immediately the plan was set in motion to counteract the reversal of poles, which would ruin the toy shops of Santa. By injecting a plasma mix of carbon-13 and irridium, it was believed the core of the earth would stabalize thus preventing 1500 years of magnetic flux reversal within the core.
In an unfortunate turn of events, one of the elves reading the emergency manual sustituted carbon-14, for carbon-13. We all know what the combination of C-14 and irridium creates. Needeless to say, this lethal cocktail was detrimental to the continued motlen state of Earths core.
Ol' St. Nick , in an attempt to give one last Christmas to the children of a Doomed planet decided to start X-mas early, and at the same time try out his new burillium powered sled. The combination of exhaust from the sled, and deer fart ignited the atmosphere of Earth and fried all living organisms on the surface.
Due to a failed core the Earth (Gaia) decided to end it all in a beautiful explosion, Which can still be seen as far away as the M30 star cluster.


Or we could just go with the end of the Mayan calender

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HammerHand

Or not.

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Jay Francis

Here is a very long but very interesting article on prophecy in the New Testament.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../prophecy.html

Speed_Gibson

just a bunch of bullsh*t from some predispensationalists. These are the same people that support the Hal Lindseys and others oft-discredited writers of that nature.
those are referring to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 and the complete destruction of the old covenant and Temple.
As it may be obvious, I am definitely a postmillennialist and preterist. Gary North (if memory serves) wrote an excellent book just a few years back discussing the utter folly of 'Rapture Fever' and how it has held back those that believe in such utter nonsense.

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