please explain jesus and his death - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

legolas · 04-02-2004, 08:58 AM

I guess this is the place for religion matters so can someone please explain to me how jesus dying made up for us sinning? Isn't killing jesus just another sin? and in the passion (please correct if wrong) jesus was running away at the beginning and scared and didn't want to be caught but i thought it was his destiny and life goal to die for whatever reason.

i'm very confused and i've talked to people for answers but all i get is "jesus died so we can get into heaven" or something.

filtherton · 04-02-2004, 09:06 AM

I've never quite understood either. I've heard it explained a million times, but it never makes sense. We kill god's son, so god gives us a pass? The same vengeful god who smitterated sodom and gammora(the giant monster that always attacks japan) and flooded the world? I don't know if i follow.

I know some denominations believe that it was christ's life as a human that saved us, as opposed to his death.

I look at his death as a moving example of dedication to a cause and the ability to do what you have to do regardless of the consequences.

tecoyah · 04-02-2004, 09:09 AM

First ....I am no longer Christian , so take this with a grain of salt.

It would seem Jesus, the Christ was a form of God himself, and was purposefully sent to earth by the creator itself. The life of Christ was meant to be a learning experience for Jesus, and for humankind. The sacrifice of the Christ was intended to show the people that this life is not all there is , and that a place can be had for all who will follow God in this life. Human sin was washed from all with the death of the Christ at the behest of said God.
The ressurection was proof that there is a heaven , and an invitation is in place for all who are willing to follow the rules. All that we need to know as far as "How" our sins were forgiven is that "God" can do anything, including clean the slate.

As far as "The Passion" is concerned....can't help you there, didn't see it. Maybe when it is on video, I have a hard enough time sitting in a theater with trekkies, if I wanted to sit for hours with Christians,,,I would go to church.

djtestudo · 04-02-2004, 10:11 AM

I think it comes from the Old Testament times. When God saw that the whole world was sinning, He let loose the flood, but saved the clean souls of Noah and his family. When Sodom and Gommorah were showed to be cities of evil, He destroyed them after giving warning to Lot.

When we get to Jesus, I think of it as God trying a new stratagy. Instead of killing everyone, he sent Jesus in human form in order to teach humanity about Him, and then die in order to cleanse the sins of the world.

I'm not a particularly religious person, so I'm just posting what I have thought about with this question.

irateplatypus · 04-02-2004, 11:20 AM

here is what i believe, i know that this is consistent with Wesleyan interpretations of scripture. Unsure how it compares with other traditions...

God the Father, the smiter mentioned in previous posts from the Old Testament is inifinitely holy and powerful. His very nature is incompatible with the notion of sin, oil and water. If heaven is being near to the presence of God, then sinning excludes you from his presence.

God knew that man could never live up to this ideal, but loves and wants to fellowship with his creations. So, he sent his son to take our sins upon him in order that we may fellowship with God the Father.

Jesus was God's son. He lived a mortal life while being subjected to all the temptations, pain, and opportunity to sin that every human person deals with. In accepting a perfect sacrifice (someone paying a debt for you, even though they themselves were debt-free), we are justified in our hope for eternal salvation from our sins... though we are still imperfect.

separate from issues of agreement, i hope that made sense.

Ustwo · 04-02-2004, 11:32 AM

Its a basic human sacrafice theme.

The 'lamb of god', much like a sacraficial animal.

You could argue it was god making the ultimate sacrafice for his people. WHY it was needed who knows, but then why 'god' likes burnt grain, animals, and the like I don't know either.

irateplatypus · 04-02-2004, 12:02 PM

ustwo, this is mainly related to Old Testament scripture... though i suppose it is still on topic because it is dealing with sacrifices in the Judeo-Christian context.

i doubt it is that God particularly like burn grain, animals and whatever else. When those words were written, that is what people had... that is how they measured wealth and success. By burning a portion of it they are ritualistically saying "we trust in divine providence that we will be given what we need."

iccky · 04-02-2004, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ustwo
The 'lamb of god', much like a sacraficial animal.

You could argue it was god making the ultimate sacrafice for his people. WHY it was needed who knows, but then why 'god' likes burnt grain, animals, and the like I don't know either.

We should remember that the Judaism of Jesus' time was very big into sacrifices as dictated by the Torah. Jesus intended his sacrifice to be a sort of ultimate sacrifice, to replace the need for any other sacrifices as a was of making good for your sins with God. In this way Jesus was the passover lamb for all eternity.

Its easy for christians to forget that their God is the same as the God of the Jews. Even theough they relate to God through a different covenent then Jews do, its the same God who apparently likes burnt dead animals. As to why he does, I find it best not to try to psycoanalyze God, he is, afterall, a hell of a lot smarter then me.

asaris · 04-02-2004, 01:06 PM

Here's the argument in a nutshell. God is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful. Because he is perfectly just, there must be punishment for our sins. Because he is perfectly merciful, he sent Christ as a way for us to be saved from our sins. It's in this way we know that Christ has to be God and man. He has to be God, because only God can bear the sins of the entire world. He has to be man, because only a man can die for the sins of man.

But why would God allow someone to bear the sins that we deserve to bear? I don't know. All I know is that it is the case. Some people use the example of a judge ordering his delinquent son to pay a fine, and then paying it himself. It's a pretty bad analogy, but maybe it helps.

Note the significance of the two events that we'll be celebrating next weekend. Good Friday is the victory of Christ over sin; Easter is his victory over death. These victories could only be accomplished by Christ; a death in sin is just a death.

SecretMethod70 · 04-02-2004, 01:53 PM

There are a lot of thoughts relating to this topic in this thread: <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48509">Reasons for the Crucifixion</a>

Hopefully this one will have a better run that that one ultimately did (hint, hint

)

04-02-2004, 05:17 PM

Jesus was just one out of many who were tortured and crucified because they "didn't fit in" or they did things or said things to offend the Romans. Both Herod and Pilate were vicious, cruel, and heartless. Usually it was Jews in general that were forbidden there. Most people thought he was "insane" for claiming that he was the King of the Jews, more yet, the Son of God. Well, in a Universal Truth, He was, just like we all are- offspring of the Source. That confused many. So, simply, they killed him, just as they did the others whom the Romans weren't pleased with on their territory.

legolas · 04-03-2004, 04:32 PM

ok i'm hearing a lot of thoughts and i'm sorry to say that most of them didn't help or answer my questions at all. i appreciate the effort though.

i've put these posts and conversations with other people and what i did get (i think) is this: christ was sent down to tell us about god and such and also was sent down to die so we would be cleansed of sin since man is born with sin at birth. jesus was god's man part (half man half divine i think) and he sacrificed himself so man could get into heaven. i also think the reason jesus was running away at first (if he actually was) was his heart was on the wrong track or something because he was praying to his father "why don't you give me the strength to do this" or something along the lines so he knew he had to do it but he wasn't ready yet which is why when he is about to get whipped he says "my heart is ready father"
and another thing i think made clear is that jesus gave his life because he knew life on earth wasn't everything and then he came back anyways to prove heaven and such.

one thing i don't understand is when jesus was on the cross he said "forgive them father they know not what they do." if jesus was sent down to die for us then why would he ask his father to forgive them? they both already knew it would happen too.

tecoyah · 04-03-2004, 04:53 PM

I think you should take the "quotations" of the christ with a grain of salt, as no one could possibly know what he said, if anything. The bible and the story of Christ are (in my opinion) meant to create a picture of human possibility. If someone tells you they remember what you said, verbatim, 60 years ago.....would you take it as fact?
The story of Jesus was thought to be written down over fifty years after the fact, something to chew on.

iccky · 04-04-2004, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
I think you should take the "quotations" of the christ with a grain of salt, as no one could possibly know what he said, if anything. The bible and the story of Christ are (in my opinion) meant to create a picture of human possibility. If someone tells you they remember what you said, verbatim, 60 years ago.....would you take it as fact?
The story of Jesus was thought to be written down over fifty years after the fact, something to chew on.

This is true, but the fact that it was written down fifty years after the fact does not mean that we should discount all of the sayings in it. For one thing, many scholars belive there were earlier written records of the life of Jesus that the gospels we know used as sources for their accounts.

However, even if there were no earlier written records, it's perfectly possible that the saying of Jesus were preserved as an oral tradition for fifty years before they were written down. In modern times we expect everything of importance to be written, but back then most knowledge was passed on in oral form because it was a lot more expensive to write things down and most people were illiterate anyways. As a result, people were much better at remembering the exact wording of things. Think of all of the great arabic poetry (1001 nights etc.) that was transmitted oraly for decades or centuries before ever being written down.

Another strong argument for the fact that some sayings are quthentic is the fact that several sources that originated in different areas have Jesus saying the say thing with almost hte same wording. Think Mark (c. 70 CE, John, Luke and Matthew (c. 100 CE) (the parts that did not use Mark as a source), the Gospel of Thomas (either around 60 or 70 or much later, depending which scholar you belive) and the letter of Paul (c. 50s CE).

Sorry that was a bit off-topic

04-04-2004, 05:40 PM

There are many truths and accurate events & words relayed, however it's like playing a game of telephone- you start off with someone telling one thing, then by the last person, words tend to get jumbled around, filled in, and left out.
I love the bible, but the stories were passed down verbally and written, and then through translation and peicing together, much of it is not exactly how it originally happened. Also, there are the "fill in the blanks" of parts of the stories that were not there, so someone simply tried to fill in the gap in order for it to make more sense.
However, this is what leads to many contradictions, confusion, and misinterpretations of the "real story".
The most accurate thing to do in this situation, with this question, is to do research. NOT by asking other people, because you will get different views and opinions. Read the bible, amongst other historic biographies and research books. The historians sure know a lot, through studying of years and years on many eras, including the time when Jesus came.

irateplatypus · 04-04-2004, 08:15 PM

I agree with most of what OshnSoul posted (a rare thing in tilted philosophy)... but i'd like to add a bit to it.

when doing research on someone as polarizing and controversial as Jesus, be sure to be aware of the source you are getting the research from. there are some "scholars" who will go to any length do belittle the truth and impact of the historical Jesus, there are others who will refuse to acknowledge the historical shortcomings of the Gospel's formation.

Also, when you consider the impact of an oral culture on the accuracy of history... i don't think playing a game of telephone is an accurate representation. The culture we are all a part of puts very limited emphasis on the oral tradition. We don't bother to memorize or listen with the purpose of remembering events verbatim very often. And why should we? We have cheap pen and paper, voice recorders, cameras, etc. Back then, great pride and care was taken to remember and recite large volumes of information, as that was often the only way of recording it. I'm sure there was plenty of opportunity for error, but to make a direct connection to our ability to employ oral recitation would be a mistake.

just a couple things to think about...

04-04-2004, 09:53 PM

I follow and agree with you.

However, I was not specificly speaking of oral recitation, but in books and scripture as well.
The collections & writings of the scripture were widely spread over hundreds of years. Parts have been rewritten and retranslated over and over. Many different people rewriting and retranslating them. There was opportunity for error.

legolas · 04-06-2004, 06:14 PM

So you guys are saying he didn't say that and that the bible is not accurate?

tecoyah · 04-06-2004, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by legolas
So you guys are saying he didn't say that and that the bible is not accurate?

The Bible (in my opinion) is a wonderful story of human morality, and should be used as any self help book should. But, think about it. There are a minimum of three(3) major versions of this book, and they are not the same. How can one be accurate, and others be incorrect.
I have come to accept the books as a great resourse for many people, and respect them for what they are. The issues come about when they are taken too literally, and differing opinion creates societal problems.
In short, sure they are accurate, when taken in the right context. But they are by no means a "textbook on God", To me. Any more than the Koran, The book of Mormon, or any other spiitual text may be.
The point people are making here (I think) is that it is unlikely that humans, could translate, copy, and orally transmit ANY information with accuracy over a two thousand year period. Damn, just look at a history text from 1950 and compare it to one from today, same history, different take.

legolas · 04-06-2004, 09:47 PM

i understand. i've thought the same sometimes. good points.

irateplatypus · 04-06-2004, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
The Bible (in my opinion) is a wonderful story of human morality, and should be used as any self help book should.

think what you will about the Bible, but it is anything but a self-help book. the entire narrative of the text has an overarching theme of the futility of helping ourselves and how we must rely on the grace of God to atone for our inability to live holy lives.

tecoyah · 04-07-2004, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by irateplatypus
think what you will about the Bible, but it is anything but a self-help book. the entire narrative of the text has an overarching theme of the futility of helping ourselves and how we must rely on the grace of God to atone for our inability to live holy lives.

Thanks....I will. Guess I am Using it wrong, Mine didn't come with instructions, can I borrow yours?

qtpye4u84 · 04-07-2004, 04:24 AM

Well in the first few chapters in the bible they use to kill animals to wash there sins away now that jesus died for our sins now ppl dont have to kill animals they just ask him for forgiveness. my short answer lol. thats what i tell my friends when they ask me or have asked me.

Thagrastay · 04-07-2004, 08:41 AM

Legolas,
I realize it is very late in the discussion to be weighing in, but I truly feel I must. You have very real questions and very real concerns about these things and I have to remind you that the answers you are receiving are, for the most part coming from very die-hard skeptics. They are seemingly not so much trying to answer your questions to bolster the faith you seek to as much as destroy any seeds of faith you might have.
To answer your original questions I am going to add my own two cents from my own years of study and give you the best information from a spiritual point of view that I am able.
We'll let the skeptics do as they wish afterwards.
Sin is Man's will running contrary to God's.
God's will is perfect. Man's will is imperfect. We have, over all of our many generations since the first, learned to follow our own will rather than God's and to seek out our own ways rather than God's. This has resulted in iall the problems the world faces today- crime, war, hunger, death, greed, etc.
At one point in time, God established a covenant with a man named Abram, that he would make a great nation of his decendents and through his decendents, one would be born through which God Himself would deliver all of mankind.
When God gave Abram a son, God changed Abrams name to Abraham and at one point, commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son. Abraham, loving God, did not question, but did as God commanded, and led his son, Isaac up to the mopuntain top, and prepared his son for sacrifice. At the very last second, God stopped Abraham and substituted a ram instead. The point being that Abraham's fainth in God was enough, and the only son that would ever be required would be God's own, who would lay down His own life willingly.
Moses was a prototype of the Promised one that was to come, and many of the things that occurred in Moses' life time would also occur in Jesus'. The killing of the male children 2 years old and under, the escape into egypt(ian life ) for a time, the coming out of Egypt and miracles and leading of God's people and miracles and establishing of laws and deliverance.
When it came time for Moses to lead his people, the Hebrews out of Egypt, it was given to him by God to perform many great signs and wonders and cause plagues to come upon the Pharoah in order to make him release the Hebrews. The final plague was of the Pharoahs own doing- the death of every first born in Egypt.
That night, The Angel of Death visited Egypt and made Pharoah's own curse come to pass. But before hand, knowing whjat was to take place, Moses went to the Hebrew people and told them to take an unblemished (unspotted-clean) lamb and slaughter it, and take its blood and paint it on the door posts of their homes and then go and prepare to leave. And whenthe Angel of Death passed through Egypt, whenever He saw a home upon whose posts rested the blood of the lamb, Death would pass over it. So, those that believed Moses and did as he told them, their foirst born were spared and they were protected from death by the blood of the lamb. But those who did not believe, and those who did not have the blood covering their homes were not protected, and Death did not pass over. I this way, God delivered His people from the Pharoah and slavery in Egypt.
King David was also a prototype of the Promised One (Jesus) in that He was humble and Subserviant to the Will of God. That he rejoiced in the delight of God and was a man after God's own heart.
When Jesus was born, it was the fulfillment of multitides of prophecies spanning hundreds of years and many different writers. Over the course of His life, He fulfilled many more prophecies that proved He was Meschiach- the Holy One- the Messiah.
Jesus was sinless His entire life. He did not sin, even once. He was washed clean, as was the Pasover Lamb, in the river Jordan by John the Baptist, and prepared for sacrifice over the course of His ministry in many ways, right up until the Passover, when the High Priest of Israel sacrificed Him on behalf of all the Israelites and all the sins of all mankind were laid upon the man Jesus who was our symbolic Lamb, and the cross was our door post and His blood was shed and covered all the sins of all persons for all time.
And when He called out to His Father- "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do", He was asking that for you and me and everyone ever and interceding for us.

Jeus prayed the night before because He was a man. He knew exactly what was going to happen to Him in the next several hours. He was going to be beaten and beaten andbeaten and tortured and abandoned by his friends and accused and whipped and lashed and scourged and crucified. He knew what was coming and He asked His Father to give Him the strength to geth Him through it. In the end, He did.

Jesus died to restore all things. One perfect man, Adam, allowed sin into the world. One perfect man, Jesus, paid the price for all of it.
That is a huge concept, spiritually, but with prayer and meditation on it, it is very understandable.
Please bear in mind once more that many of the people that have commented so far do not believe in Jesus or Christianity and have said as much, and so, you must wonder about their agenda. If you would like to contact me privately, please feel free to. I would be happy to answer any questions you have or direct you to people more knowledgeable than myself who can.

asaris · 04-07-2004, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
There are a minimum of three(3) major versions of this book, and they are not the same.

I was unaware that there were any of the different versions of the Bible that contradicted each other on any matter of substance. Could you perhaps elaborate?

04-07-2004, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tecoyah
The Bible (in my opinion) is a wonderful story of human morality, and should be used as any self help book should. But, think about it. There are a minimum of three(3) major versions of this book, and they are not the same. How can one be accurate, and others be incorrect.
I have come to accept the books as a great resourse for many people, and respect them for what they are. The issues come about when they are taken too literally, and differing opinion creates societal problems.
In short, sure they are accurate, when taken in the right context. But they are by no means a "textbook on God", To me. Any more than the Koran, The book of Mormon, or any other spiitual text may be.
The point people are making here (I think) is that it is unlikely that humans, could translate, copy, and orally transmit ANY information with accuracy over a two thousand year period. Damn, just look at a history text from 1950 and compare it to one from today, same history, different take.

I don't consider it a self-help book, really, mroe of a spiritual books that could hel people, just as other spirituality books can. But I do agree with you. It is a wonderful story, some is accurate, but how can different versions be as equally accurate, especially being rewritten over thousands of years? The "Word" of God, to me, is not in "words", but in the voice of my heart & soul.

rollin_ronnie · 04-08-2004, 02:12 PM

I've always felt it depends on you're take on the whole story. If you believe Jesus was literally God's son, performed miracles and ascended bodily into heaven then it follows that by dying for our sins he undertook the suffering and retribution due the entire human race, meaning that everone else would be forgiven when they die, and allowed into heaven, their punishment having already been taken.

Another viewpoint, one i take, is that Jesus was a prophet, who's message conflicted with the interests of the authorities of the time, and was later given the Son of God status by the fledgling Roman Catholic Church in order to justify its own existence. Therefore Jesus did not die for our sins, but in facing his execution the way he did, and forgiving his executors as he died, he set an example to his followers of tolerance and forgiveness which they could then use to continue the church he founded. Unfortunately the message appears to have become somewhat garbled over time, leading to such things as extremist protestants and catholics, 2 branches of the same religion, killing one another and forgetting was was basically the central tenet of their shared faith.

SecretMethod70 · 04-08-2004, 02:32 PM

the very basic doctrines such as Jesus as the Son of God aren't constructs but rather explicit statements based off of the implicit understandings taught by the apostles - the very followers of Jesus. No offense meant at all, but anyone giving any serious research into the history of Christianity knows that. And I don't mean that in a bad sense - why should a non-Christian be necessarily concerned with Christian history? - but it should be understood what one does not understand.

However, there can be debate given to the question of whether or not Jesus death was meant as a literal sacrifice or as something else. I've expounded my thoughts on this in the thread I linked to above and don't care to repeat myself however. Since it is closed, any responses or challenges to something I may have said are welcome here - so long as they don't begin to follow the same path that the other thread did.

Moobie · 05-05-2004, 09:12 AM

It's possible that it was meant as a literal sacrifice. But here's another idea that I don't think anyone has touched on. The crucifixion could also be seen as a validation of God's power and of the promise of salvation. Here's this idea that there's a heaven, but God needs a way to tell us about it and show us that it's a real place. Enter Jesus. Would the message have been received as well, would it have been as powerful of a message, if Jesus hadn't died? The fact that it was such brutal, public death, was to show that there were no tricks involved. Jesus did not quietly die in his sleep and then arise three days later. He was tortured.

After seeing the Passion a lot of things that I'd never considered made a lot of sense. As a child all you really see of the crucifixion is the icon of Jesus on the cross, all serene. But after seeing the movie, sounds strange to say that, you get some perspective on what it may have been like. The beatings, the scourging, the crucifixion, all of these were permanent, debilitating wounds. That was the point. God/Jesus wanted there to be no question of his resurrection. Before he died Jesus would have been a ragged bloody mess, and probably would have died even without being crucified. If you've seen the movie you defiantly know what I'm talking about. When he arose three days later, there's no way that he could have not been resurrected. There would have been no way to hide the massive wounds he'd sustained. He wouldn't have been able to walk. So the physical reason for the crucifixion was for evidence of God's power and to show that Jesus had been telling the truth about it all.

Also, here's something else. Jesus had told the temple priests that he would destroy the temple and build it again in three days. This is a very important thing, because Jesus wasn't talking about the priest's temple at all. He was talking about his body. He's telling everyone out loud what he's about to do. He's making a promise. The Jews/Romans didn't kill Jesus. He did it to himself. He knew what was going to happen and arranged things for it all to happen. The people who beat and killed him, were doing God's work. Yeah that's a really crappy thing to do to someone, but I don't think they had a choice. It had to happen that way.

I'll admit that I'm pretty new to all of this. But for some reason these things are starting to make sense to me, and I used to be a devote atheist. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

wnker85 · 05-10-2004, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by asaris
I was unaware that there were any of the different versions of the Bible that contradicted each other on any matter of substance. Could you perhaps elaborate?

Me too.... Are you talking about the gospels or the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim books?

Pellaz · 05-10-2004, 08:26 PM

Interesting fact for those not fully up on their biblical lore: What was Jesus doing while he was dead for three days? Just loafing around, hanging out? Nope, he was busting some arse in hell, freeing all the old testament heros who should have been in heaven but couldn't be becasue they hadn't accepted Jesus as their savior.

SecretMethod70 · 05-10-2004, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pellaz
Interesting fact for those not fully up on their biblical lore: What was Jesus doing while he was dead for three days? Just loafing around, hanging out? Nope, he was busting some arse in hell, freeing all the old testament heros who should have been in heaven but couldn't be becasue they hadn't accepted Jesus as their savior.

I wouldn't count that as fact...not all Christians have that interpretation of events. Either way, yes, there are Christians who believe that.

MageB420666 · 05-13-2004, 09:50 AM

Okay here is my two cents and I hope they don't piss a lot of people off(too much)

Jesus was crucified because of the Pax Romana. Christian doctirine was against sacrifices. According to Roman belief sacrifices were neccesary to keep the gods happy so that they would protect Rome(thats what the Pax Romana is).Romans were actually very tolerant of different religions and cultures, so long as they did nothing to threaten the Pax Romana. So here comes Jesus saying that you don't need to sacrifice animals and the like, all you need do is believe in me. As you can see this becomes a threat to the Pax Romana, especially since Jesus was gaining a following. which is why he was crucified as an enemy of Rome.

Now in comes the argument against Jesus dying for our sins.
If a man kills another man, would hanging a third man make the first man any less guilty of murder? I would hope not.
This also brings along the idea that everyone is a sinner in someway or somehow. The main argument for this is the idea of original sin, or that we are concieved in sin, well I for one would hope that I am not being held responsible for others actions, if I am damned to hell I would hope it was for something that I did, not my parents or Adam and Eve. And if the taking of life is a sin, then why is the creating of life a sin? It doesn't make sense.
So for Jesus to have died for our sins we first have to have sinned, and then someone else has to be able to take the responsibility for our sins, which means that I could go out rape, murder, steal, and any other number of sins, then say Jesus died for that so let me in.

And what about babies that die during birth or are stillborn? Do they go to hell because they died before knowing about Jesus?
And why should someone who lives a good life and does wrong to nobody burn in hell because he doesn't believe in Jesus?

04-02-2004, 08:58 AM	#1 (permalink)
legolas shit faced cockmaster Location: CT	please explain jesus and his death I guess this is the place for religion matters so can someone please explain to me how jesus dying made up for us sinning? Isn't killing jesus just another sin? and in the passion (please correct if wrong) jesus was running away at the beginning and scared and didn't want to be caught but i thought it was his destiny and life goal to die for whatever reason. i'm very confused and i've talked to people for answers but all i get is "jesus died so we can get into heaven" or something. __________________ "To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."

04-02-2004, 09:09 AM	#3 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	First ....I am no longer Christian , so take this with a grain of salt. It would seem Jesus, the Christ was a form of God himself, and was purposefully sent to earth by the creator itself. The life of Christ was meant to be a learning experience for Jesus, and for humankind. The sacrifice of the Christ was intended to show the people that this life is not all there is , and that a place can be had for all who will follow God in this life. Human sin was washed from all with the death of the Christ at the behest of said God. The ressurection was proof that there is a heaven , and an invitation is in place for all who are willing to follow the rules. All that we need to know as far as "How" our sins were forgiven is that "God" can do anything, including clean the slate. As far as "The Passion" is concerned....can't help you there, didn't see it. Maybe when it is on video, I have a hard enough time sitting in a theater with trekkies, if I wanted to sit for hours with Christians,,,I would go to church. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

04-02-2004, 10:11 AM	#4 (permalink)
djtestudo Baltimoron Location: Beeeeeautiful Bel Air, MD	I think it comes from the Old Testament times. When God saw that the whole world was sinning, He let loose the flood, but saved the clean souls of Noah and his family. When Sodom and Gommorah were showed to be cities of evil, He destroyed them after giving warning to Lot. When we get to Jesus, I think of it as God trying a new stratagy. Instead of killing everyone, he sent Jesus in human form in order to teach humanity about Him, and then die in order to cleanse the sins of the world. I'm not a particularly religious person, so I'm just posting what I have thought about with this question. __________________ "Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen." --Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

04-02-2004, 11:20 AM	#5 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	here is what i believe, i know that this is consistent with Wesleyan interpretations of scripture. Unsure how it compares with other traditions... God the Father, the smiter mentioned in previous posts from the Old Testament is inifinitely holy and powerful. His very nature is incompatible with the notion of sin, oil and water. If heaven is being near to the presence of God, then sinning excludes you from his presence. God knew that man could never live up to this ideal, but loves and wants to fellowship with his creations. So, he sent his son to take our sins upon him in order that we may fellowship with God the Father. Jesus was God's son. He lived a mortal life while being subjected to all the temptations, pain, and opportunity to sin that every human person deals with. In accepting a perfect sacrifice (someone paying a debt for you, even though they themselves were debt-free), we are justified in our hope for eternal salvation from our sins... though we are still imperfect. separate from issues of agreement, i hope that made sense. __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill Last edited by irateplatypus; 04-02-2004 at 11:23 AM..

04-02-2004, 11:32 AM	#6 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Its a basic human sacrafice theme. The 'lamb of god', much like a sacraficial animal. You could argue it was god making the ultimate sacrafice for his people. WHY it was needed who knows, but then why 'god' likes burnt grain, animals, and the like I don't know either. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

04-02-2004, 09:06 AM	#2 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I've never quite understood either. I've heard it explained a million times, but it never makes sense. We kill god's son, so god gives us a pass? The same vengeful god who smitterated sodom and gammora(the giant monster that always attacks japan) and flooded the world? I don't know if i follow. I know some denominations believe that it was christ's life as a human that saved us, as opposed to his death. I look at his death as a moving example of dedication to a cause and the ability to do what you have to do regardless of the consequences.

04-02-2004, 12:02 PM	#7 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	ustwo, this is mainly related to Old Testament scripture... though i suppose it is still on topic because it is dealing with sacrifices in the Judeo-Christian context. i doubt it is that God particularly like burn grain, animals and whatever else. When those words were written, that is what people had... that is how they measured wealth and success. By burning a portion of it they are ritualistically saying "we trust in divine providence that we will be given what we need." __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

04-02-2004, 01:06 PM	#9 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Here's the argument in a nutshell. God is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful. Because he is perfectly just, there must be punishment for our sins. Because he is perfectly merciful, he sent Christ as a way for us to be saved from our sins. It's in this way we know that Christ has to be God and man. He has to be God, because only God can bear the sins of the entire world. He has to be man, because only a man can die for the sins of man. But why would God allow someone to bear the sins that we deserve to bear? I don't know. All I know is that it is the case. Some people use the example of a judge ordering his delinquent son to pay a fine, and then paying it himself. It's a pretty bad analogy, but maybe it helps. Note the significance of the two events that we'll be celebrating next weekend. Good Friday is the victory of Christ over sin; Easter is his victory over death. These victories could only be accomplished by Christ; a death in sin is just a death. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

04-02-2004, 01:53 PM	#10 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	There are a lot of thoughts relating to this topic in this thread: <a href="http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48509">Reasons for the Crucifixion</a> Hopefully this one will have a better run that that one ultimately did (hint, hint ) __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

04-02-2004, 05:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	Jesus was just one out of many who were tortured and crucified because they "didn't fit in" or they did things or said things to offend the Romans. Both Herod and Pilate were vicious, cruel, and heartless. Usually it was Jews in general that were forbidden there. Most people thought he was "insane" for claiming that he was the King of the Jews, more yet, the Son of God. Well, in a Universal Truth, He was, just like we all are- offspring of the Source. That confused many. So, simply, they killed him, just as they did the others whom the Romans weren't pleased with on their territory. Last edited by :::OshnSoul:::; 04-02-2004 at 05:20 PM..

04-03-2004, 04:32 PM	#12 (permalink)
legolas shit faced cockmaster Location: CT	ok i'm hearing a lot of thoughts and i'm sorry to say that most of them didn't help or answer my questions at all. i appreciate the effort though. i've put these posts and conversations with other people and what i did get (i think) is this: christ was sent down to tell us about god and such and also was sent down to die so we would be cleansed of sin since man is born with sin at birth. jesus was god's man part (half man half divine i think) and he sacrificed himself so man could get into heaven. i also think the reason jesus was running away at first (if he actually was) was his heart was on the wrong track or something because he was praying to his father "why don't you give me the strength to do this" or something along the lines so he knew he had to do it but he wasn't ready yet which is why when he is about to get whipped he says "my heart is ready father" and another thing i think made clear is that jesus gave his life because he knew life on earth wasn't everything and then he came back anyways to prove heaven and such. one thing i don't understand is when jesus was on the cross he said "forgive them father they know not what they do." if jesus was sent down to die for us then why would he ask his father to forgive them? they both already knew it would happen too. __________________ "To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."

04-03-2004, 04:53 PM	#13 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I think you should take the "quotations" of the christ with a grain of salt, as no one could possibly know what he said, if anything. The bible and the story of Christ are (in my opinion) meant to create a picture of human possibility. If someone tells you they remember what you said, verbatim, 60 years ago.....would you take it as fact? The story of Jesus was thought to be written down over fifty years after the fact, something to chew on. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

04-04-2004, 05:40 PM	#15 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	There are many truths and accurate events & words relayed, however it's like playing a game of telephone- you start off with someone telling one thing, then by the last person, words tend to get jumbled around, filled in, and left out. I love the bible, but the stories were passed down verbally and written, and then through translation and peicing together, much of it is not exactly how it originally happened. Also, there are the "fill in the blanks" of parts of the stories that were not there, so someone simply tried to fill in the gap in order for it to make more sense. However, this is what leads to many contradictions, confusion, and misinterpretations of the "real story". The most accurate thing to do in this situation, with this question, is to do research. NOT by asking other people, because you will get different views and opinions. Read the bible, amongst other historic biographies and research books. The historians sure know a lot, through studying of years and years on many eras, including the time when Jesus came.

04-04-2004, 08:15 PM	#16 (permalink)
irateplatypus can't help but laugh Location: dar al-harb	I agree with most of what OshnSoul posted (a rare thing in tilted philosophy)... but i'd like to add a bit to it. when doing research on someone as polarizing and controversial as Jesus, be sure to be aware of the source you are getting the research from. there are some "scholars" who will go to any length do belittle the truth and impact of the historical Jesus, there are others who will refuse to acknowledge the historical shortcomings of the Gospel's formation. Also, when you consider the impact of an oral culture on the accuracy of history... i don't think playing a game of telephone is an accurate representation. The culture we are all a part of puts very limited emphasis on the oral tradition. We don't bother to memorize or listen with the purpose of remembering events verbatim very often. And why should we? We have cheap pen and paper, voice recorders, cameras, etc. Back then, great pride and care was taken to remember and recite large volumes of information, as that was often the only way of recording it. I'm sure there was plenty of opportunity for error, but to make a direct connection to our ability to employ oral recitation would be a mistake. just a couple things to think about... __________________ If you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves. ~ Winston Churchill

04-04-2004, 09:53 PM	#17 (permalink)
:::OshnSoul::: Guest	I follow and agree with you. However, I was not specificly speaking of oral recitation, but in books and scripture as well. The collections & writings of the scripture were widely spread over hundreds of years. Parts have been rewritten and retranslated over and over. Many different people rewriting and retranslating them. There was opportunity for error.

04-06-2004, 06:14 PM	#18 (permalink)
legolas shit faced cockmaster Location: CT	So you guys are saying he didn't say that and that the bible is not accurate? __________________ "To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."

04-06-2004, 09:47 PM	#20 (permalink)
legolas shit faced cockmaster Location: CT	i understand. i've thought the same sometimes. good points. __________________ "To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems."

04-07-2004, 04:24 AM	#23 (permalink)
qtpye4u84 Flavor+noodles Location: oregon	Well in the first few chapters in the bible they use to kill animals to wash there sins away now that jesus died for our sins now ppl dont have to kill animals they just ask him for forgiveness. my short answer lol. thats what i tell my friends when they ask me or have asked me. __________________ The QTpie

04-07-2004, 08:41 AM	#24 (permalink)
Thagrastay Crazy Location: Handrail, Montana	Legolas, I realize it is very late in the discussion to be weighing in, but I truly feel I must. You have very real questions and very real concerns about these things and I have to remind you that the answers you are receiving are, for the most part coming from very die-hard skeptics. They are seemingly not so much trying to answer your questions to bolster the faith you seek to as much as destroy any seeds of faith you might have. To answer your original questions I am going to add my own two cents from my own years of study and give you the best information from a spiritual point of view that I am able. We'll let the skeptics do as they wish afterwards. Sin is Man's will running contrary to God's. God's will is perfect. Man's will is imperfect. We have, over all of our many generations since the first, learned to follow our own will rather than God's and to seek out our own ways rather than God's. This has resulted in iall the problems the world faces today- crime, war, hunger, death, greed, etc. At one point in time, God established a covenant with a man named Abram, that he would make a great nation of his decendents and through his decendents, one would be born through which God Himself would deliver all of mankind. When God gave Abram a son, God changed Abrams name to Abraham and at one point, commanded Abraham to sacrifice his son. Abraham, loving God, did not question, but did as God commanded, and led his son, Isaac up to the mopuntain top, and prepared his son for sacrifice. At the very last second, God stopped Abraham and substituted a ram instead. The point being that Abraham's fainth in God was enough, and the only son that would ever be required would be God's own, who would lay down His own life willingly. Moses was a prototype of the Promised one that was to come, and many of the things that occurred in Moses' life time would also occur in Jesus'. The killing of the male children 2 years old and under, the escape into egypt(ian life ) for a time, the coming out of Egypt and miracles and leading of God's people and miracles and establishing of laws and deliverance. When it came time for Moses to lead his people, the Hebrews out of Egypt, it was given to him by God to perform many great signs and wonders and cause plagues to come upon the Pharoah in order to make him release the Hebrews. The final plague was of the Pharoahs own doing- the death of every first born in Egypt. That night, The Angel of Death visited Egypt and made Pharoah's own curse come to pass. But before hand, knowing whjat was to take place, Moses went to the Hebrew people and told them to take an unblemished (unspotted-clean) lamb and slaughter it, and take its blood and paint it on the door posts of their homes and then go and prepare to leave. And whenthe Angel of Death passed through Egypt, whenever He saw a home upon whose posts rested the blood of the lamb, Death would pass over it. So, those that believed Moses and did as he told them, their foirst born were spared and they were protected from death by the blood of the lamb. But those who did not believe, and those who did not have the blood covering their homes were not protected, and Death did not pass over. I this way, God delivered His people from the Pharoah and slavery in Egypt. King David was also a prototype of the Promised One (Jesus) in that He was humble and Subserviant to the Will of God. That he rejoiced in the delight of God and was a man after God's own heart. When Jesus was born, it was the fulfillment of multitides of prophecies spanning hundreds of years and many different writers. Over the course of His life, He fulfilled many more prophecies that proved He was Meschiach- the Holy One- the Messiah. Jesus was sinless His entire life. He did not sin, even once. He was washed clean, as was the Pasover Lamb, in the river Jordan by John the Baptist, and prepared for sacrifice over the course of His ministry in many ways, right up until the Passover, when the High Priest of Israel sacrificed Him on behalf of all the Israelites and all the sins of all mankind were laid upon the man Jesus who was our symbolic Lamb, and the cross was our door post and His blood was shed and covered all the sins of all persons for all time. And when He called out to His Father- "Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do", He was asking that for you and me and everyone ever and interceding for us. Jeus prayed the night before because He was a man. He knew exactly what was going to happen to Him in the next several hours. He was going to be beaten and beaten andbeaten and tortured and abandoned by his friends and accused and whipped and lashed and scourged and crucified. He knew what was coming and He asked His Father to give Him the strength to geth Him through it. In the end, He did. Jesus died to restore all things. One perfect man, Adam, allowed sin into the world. One perfect man, Jesus, paid the price for all of it. That is a huge concept, spiritually, but with prayer and meditation on it, it is very understandable. Please bear in mind once more that many of the people that have commented so far do not believe in Jesus or Christianity and have said as much, and so, you must wonder about their agenda. If you would like to contact me privately, please feel free to. I would be happy to answer any questions you have or direct you to people more knowledgeable than myself who can. __________________ "That's it! They've got the cuffs on him, he's IN the car!"

04-08-2004, 02:12 PM	#27 (permalink)
rollin_ronnie Upright Location: Sheffield, England	I've always felt it depends on you're take on the whole story. If you believe Jesus was literally God's son, performed miracles and ascended bodily into heaven then it follows that by dying for our sins he undertook the suffering and retribution due the entire human race, meaning that everone else would be forgiven when they die, and allowed into heaven, their punishment having already been taken. Another viewpoint, one i take, is that Jesus was a prophet, who's message conflicted with the interests of the authorities of the time, and was later given the Son of God status by the fledgling Roman Catholic Church in order to justify its own existence. Therefore Jesus did not die for our sins, but in facing his execution the way he did, and forgiving his executors as he died, he set an example to his followers of tolerance and forgiveness which they could then use to continue the church he founded. Unfortunately the message appears to have become somewhat garbled over time, leading to such things as extremist protestants and catholics, 2 branches of the same religion, killing one another and forgetting was was basically the central tenet of their shared faith.

04-08-2004, 02:32 PM	#28 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	the very basic doctrines such as Jesus as the Son of God aren't constructs but rather explicit statements based off of the implicit understandings taught by the apostles - the very followers of Jesus. No offense meant at all, but anyone giving any serious research into the history of Christianity knows that. And I don't mean that in a bad sense - why should a non-Christian be necessarily concerned with Christian history? - but it should be understood what one does not understand. However, there can be debate given to the question of whether or not Jesus death was meant as a literal sacrifice or as something else. I've expounded my thoughts on this in the thread I linked to above and don't care to repeat myself however. Since it is closed, any responses or challenges to something I may have said are welcome here - so long as they don't begin to follow the same path that the other thread did. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 04-08-2004 at 02:37 PM..

05-05-2004, 09:12 AM	#29 (permalink)
Moobie Insane Location: baked beans	It's possible that it was meant as a literal sacrifice. But here's another idea that I don't think anyone has touched on. The crucifixion could also be seen as a validation of God's power and of the promise of salvation. Here's this idea that there's a heaven, but God needs a way to tell us about it and show us that it's a real place. Enter Jesus. Would the message have been received as well, would it have been as powerful of a message, if Jesus hadn't died? The fact that it was such brutal, public death, was to show that there were no tricks involved. Jesus did not quietly die in his sleep and then arise three days later. He was tortured. After seeing the Passion a lot of things that I'd never considered made a lot of sense. As a child all you really see of the crucifixion is the icon of Jesus on the cross, all serene. But after seeing the movie, sounds strange to say that, you get some perspective on what it may have been like. The beatings, the scourging, the crucifixion, all of these were permanent, debilitating wounds. That was the point. God/Jesus wanted there to be no question of his resurrection. Before he died Jesus would have been a ragged bloody mess, and probably would have died even without being crucified. If you've seen the movie you defiantly know what I'm talking about. When he arose three days later, there's no way that he could have not been resurrected. There would have been no way to hide the massive wounds he'd sustained. He wouldn't have been able to walk. So the physical reason for the crucifixion was for evidence of God's power and to show that Jesus had been telling the truth about it all. Also, here's something else. Jesus had told the temple priests that he would destroy the temple and build it again in three days. This is a very important thing, because Jesus wasn't talking about the priest's temple at all. He was talking about his body. He's telling everyone out loud what he's about to do. He's making a promise. The Jews/Romans didn't kill Jesus. He did it to himself. He knew what was going to happen and arranged things for it all to happen. The people who beat and killed him, were doing God's work. Yeah that's a really crappy thing to do to someone, but I don't think they had a choice. It had to happen that way. I'll admit that I'm pretty new to all of this. But for some reason these things are starting to make sense to me, and I used to be a devote atheist. So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. __________________ Obscenity is the crutch of inarticulate motherfuckers. We like money. Give us your money you stupid consumer whore.

05-10-2004, 08:26 PM	#31 (permalink)
Pellaz Addict Location: Texas	Interesting fact for those not fully up on their biblical lore: What was Jesus doing while he was dead for three days? Just loafing around, hanging out? Nope, he was busting some arse in hell, freeing all the old testament heros who should have been in heaven but couldn't be becasue they hadn't accepted Jesus as their savior. __________________ " ' Big Mouth. Remember it took three of you to kill me. A god, a boy, and, last and least, a hero.' "

05-13-2004, 09:50 AM	#33 (permalink)
MageB420666 <Insert wise statement here> Location: Hell if I know	Okay here is my two cents and I hope they don't piss a lot of people off(too much) Jesus was crucified because of the Pax Romana. Christian doctirine was against sacrifices. According to Roman belief sacrifices were neccesary to keep the gods happy so that they would protect Rome(thats what the Pax Romana is).Romans were actually very tolerant of different religions and cultures, so long as they did nothing to threaten the Pax Romana. So here comes Jesus saying that you don't need to sacrifice animals and the like, all you need do is believe in me. As you can see this becomes a threat to the Pax Romana, especially since Jesus was gaining a following. which is why he was crucified as an enemy of Rome. Now in comes the argument against Jesus dying for our sins. If a man kills another man, would hanging a third man make the first man any less guilty of murder? I would hope not. This also brings along the idea that everyone is a sinner in someway or somehow. The main argument for this is the idea of original sin, or that we are concieved in sin, well I for one would hope that I am not being held responsible for others actions, if I am damned to hell I would hope it was for something that I did, not my parents or Adam and Eve. And if the taking of life is a sin, then why is the creating of life a sin? It doesn't make sense. So for Jesus to have died for our sins we first have to have sinned, and then someone else has to be able to take the responsibility for our sins, which means that I could go out rape, murder, steal, and any other number of sins, then say Jesus died for that so let me in. And what about babies that die during birth or are stillborn? Do they go to hell because they died before knowing about Jesus? And why should someone who lives a good life and does wrong to nobody burn in hell because he doesn't believe in Jesus? __________________ Apathy: The best outlook this side of I don't give a damn.