filtherton

Adam and eve, the first two humans. They get it on, have two children. One of their children kills the other leaving one child. How does three become billions? How can inbreeding such as this be sustained to the effect of billions of people?

I've been wondering about this for a long time and i guess because of this question i've always thought about the story of adam and eve as mere parable. It has also always made the idea of a christian denouncing incest rather odd to me.


It occurs to me that i might have missed sunday school on the day when they explained this, so i apologize in advance if i am asking a silly question.

sexymama

Literally translated, Adam means men and Eve means women.

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brianna

i *think* that in the bible Cain goes off to a city and marries a girl there.

From Genesis:

[5] ; if anyone kills Cain, he will suffer vengeance seven times over." Then the LORD put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill him. 16 So Cain went out from the LORD's presence and lived in the land of Nod, [6] east of Eden.
17 Cain lay with his wife, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Enoch.

I'm not sure where exactly this other city is supposed to have come from since adam and eve were supposedly the first humans on earth and though they were supposed to have lived for an extremely long time (adam for 930 years!), certainly long enough for a city to rise up... but where would the people come from?

so no... i don't think incest is implies although...

i found this -- which is *really* sketchy -- apparently some people believe that cain and able each had a twin sister who married the other brother....
[url]http://judaism.about.com/library/3

iman

Disclaimer: I'm not Christian or Jewish (or Muslim - they believe in the Old Testament, right?) and I've never read the Bible, so I may have my info wrong

I don't think you have to go back to Adam and Eve. Wasn't Noah the last man alive after the flood, so aren't we all products of his kids' incestuous relations. Also, after Noah, wasn't Isaac somehow the last guy on earth, and aren't we all direct descendants of Isaac's his kids? (I guess I'm a chauvanist pig, since I don't know the names of Noah and Isaac's wives. I suppose we're their descendants too).

Anyways, even without the bible - when humans evolved, there probably weren't two different families of humans that evolved at once, so the kids of the first humans probably had incest - so I guess we're all having incestuous relations with our cousins/aunts/uncles when we fuck anybody, since we all descended from the same original human.

filtherton

Sexymama: I hear what you're saying, it's a parable, and that's how i look at it too. I'm just wondering if someone with a more literal view could 'splain me this.

Briana:
I guess i'm not really clear on the details of the story. The version i've heard is: God creates adam. Adam gets bored(or something, it's not really important for the purposes of this thread) so god creates eve. Adam and eve kick it with magical fig leaves hiding their unholy bits(god has a wicked sense of humor). God tells them not to eat of the tree of knowledge. Eve is tempted by the serpent(how freudian) and takes a bite from the apple. La di da, kicked out of eden.
Adam and eve are the only humans god created. And from these two, billions.

I've never heard mention of any city off in the distance, and i think it might change the level of importance of the story if, after being evicted for tasting of the tree of knowledge, they just wander over to her cousin's house in tikrit.

raeanna74

From what I learned Adam and Eve had many children. We just hear about the squable between two of them because it involved murder. At that time the genetic code was pure. Nowadays when we marry or have incest and a child is born there is a much higher risk that the infant will have some sort of problem because our genetic codes have mutated. For example I know of a man who's parents are 1st or 2nd cousins (can't remember which) He is now in his 40's anyway. He is a hemophiliac because both his parents carried that code but it was recessive. When they mated with each other that code became dominant in their child.

From what I understand , incest was not made taboo until later in the Bible/history because they discovered that children of siblings or close relatives ended up in more deaths/deformities. Could be a theory anyway.

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brianna

ummm not *if* they wondered off -- i mean i quoted the bible which is the only source for the adam and eve story, and it pretty much says that cain wanders off to some other land with other people. seems like the only *if* involved is if the bible is true to begin with it's not like we can go to another source here.

doesn't this other city/other people issue bother anyoen else? where did these people come from?

irateplatypus

i'm just nitpicking at filtherton but:
Adam and Eve did not cover themselves with fig leaves or anything else while in Eden.

Genesis 2:25...
"And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."


keep in mind that according to the genesis narrative, adam and eve had their first children after their banishment from Eden if you read chapters 2-4 chronologically (as it is traditionally done). so, the idea that they were just chilling in Eden with people outside doesn't fit the mold of the usual interpretations.

still though, that doesn't really explain everything. no matter which scenario you propose... none of them work out completely when doctrine and theology are taken into account. it doesn't really bother me, but i'd sure like to know what actually happened in a scientific way at the beginning. what we have here is a narrative representation of actual events, not a court reporter's version. how we tell and understand stories have changed so much over the millenia... the way we read this same story must be so different from how the first person to record it must have read it.

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bacon_masta

that's an interesting idea, goes right along with the idea that man creates "god's" and religion to help control problems in society, in this case deformed/disabled offspring

irateplatypus

raeanna,

not sure where you are getting all this about incest not becoming taboo till later on in the biblical history. The most notorious case of incest in the bible is recorded in Genesis chapter 19, very early in the chronological history of the old testament.

(KJV)

"31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:

32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.

36
Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father."

weird and twisted stuff, but it seems clear after an even cursory reading that the daughters obviously felt there was something wrong with incest, or they wouldn't have had to get ol' dad drunk off his rocker. this is about as early as it gets, relatively speaking. i don't see a mention of indifference/approval in any other part of the Bible.

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CinnamonGirl

There's also the theory/myth/story/whatever you want to call it that there was a woman before Eve, Lilith. I'm not clear on all the details, some see her as a demon, some as the "dark side of women." Anyway, maybe she got into the mix somehow. (pure speculation, since I really have no idea...)

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filtherton

Irate: That's right after sodom and gamorha right get ravaged. I forgot his name, right before that point his wife got turned into a pillar of salt. Ironic that in the process of escaping from those condemned cities for being righteous, he sleeps with his daughters. God has a sense of humor.
I know what you're saying about the fig leaves too. They weren't ashamed of their nudity until they ate from the tree of knowledge.

Thanks for the comments all. I'm just curious.

forgotten_dream

To reply to cinnamongirl first (since i'm sorting through thoughts in no particular order here) yes, Lilith was the first wife of Adam. She was kicked out of Eden for not wanting to be subserviant to Adam, and later had a line of children that were purported to be succubi/incubi (sexual vampires, basically).
Noah and his kids weren't directly incestuous... it was noah's son's and their wives that were on the arc, so it would have been a cousin situation by the third generation. Still incest and bad news for the genetics, but better at least than a brother/sister relationship.
As for there being other people elsewhere when Caine killed Abel and was sent into the wilderness, it makes sense-- if there were no other people that would try to kill him, the mark of Caine doesn't seem like it would be needed. I guess I always presumed that although Adam and Eve were the FIRST humans, there weren't the only ones created directly by god from dust, or ribs, or whatever.

On a side note, it is an interesting idea to think of the whole "made in the image of god" thing being tainted repetively by incest by Caine's kids, Noah's grandchildren etc. If it weren't for that maybe we would all still be able to float around using our god-like powers!

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brianna

The Lilith myth is part of jewish folklore, she never appears in the bible (i just did a search to be sure) -- there is one possible mention in Isaiah but most scholars seem to attribute it to mistranslation.

asaris

The usual story I heard was that the genetic line was purer in the days of Adam and Eve (or something), and so the normal problems with inbreeding didn't arrive. Later on (say, by the time of Noah), the genetics had deteriored so that incest was more problematic. Of course, Christians who view the story as myth don't have these sort of problems
.

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raeanna74

Yes maybe early in the Old Testament but in some sources there is believed to be 1,656 years from Adam to Noah. Then another 1,946 years from Noah to Abraham in 3,602 there is a lot that can happen. I didn't say it was fact, just a theory I'd learned in college.

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thingstodo

Well, all of this is predicated on the bible being accurate. I for one feel the bible has few accuracies. It has been written, interpreted, censored by various and twisted so many times.... and then Constantinople added his twist by melding paganism and christianity together for political reasons. I think you get the picture.

On top of all that, there is a great deal written regarding Eve being first and Adam created from her.

Have fun!

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FleaCircus

I'm thinking there's some kind of self-love subtext here, too. After all, Eve was made from one of Adam's ribs, wasn't she?

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twilightfoix

no, cause if you read carefully adam and eve had two children cain & able, cain kills able, but cain does start a family of his own. meaning that there were in fact other humans other than just adam, eve, and cain. but all in all it is just a story (my belief) and not an actual historical text.

Thagrastay

Adam and Eve were genetically perfect. as were all of their children. They had many. Incest was not a problem aas there were no genetic defects to carry on or worry about. Cain and Abel were mentioned as they were significant in the storyline because of what transpired between them, but they were not Adam and Eves only childrten by any means. In Genesis we are also told that the fallen Angels saw the daughters of men- or the generations of the children of Adam and Eve, and by this point, there were many, considering that lifespans at that time ran into the hundreds of years as there was no polution or disease or illness, and these Angels left their first estate, that being the state of the spirit, and mated with the daughters of men and produced a race of giants called the Nephilim who were the men of reknown, the heroes of old. It is from these that other races were introduced into the earth and other genetic strains as well. This is also where we received our ancient mythologies. But understand that Adam and Eve were real, they were perfect, their children were perfect and their generations were perfect genetically. It was their ideas and such that turned out badly. The Book of Genesis explains a lot concerning antediluvian technology as well and is a wealth of information concerning where we are as a civilization today.

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skyscan

wait, so, who recorded the history of Adam and Eve?

Wouldn't all the history before Noah have to be re-documented?

I don't know, just some things I thought as I read through it. Studies have shown that a eye witnesses miss key points on events a day after the event. I find it hard to believe that accuracy can be kept after many years. *Not trying to attack anyone or anything, just wanting to learn*

Peace be with you.

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brianna

Thagrastay:

wow. so to believe in the story of genesis you have to embrace: the existence of angels; the existence of giants; the idea that there is such a thing as "genetically perfect" (feel free to further describe this state -- i'm sure everyone would love to hear about it, genetisists esspecially ) and that it causes a body to never physically degenerate or react negatively to viruses and bacteria also in this state the body can not only live for hundreds of years but can continue to reproduce; being "genetically perfect" eliminates the risks associated with breeding between two individuals with similar genes (ie relatives); other races are decedents of angels (man it sucks to be white... no angles in my past i guess, poor me.).... have i missed anything?

seems like a lot to embrace for the sake of one little story.

TheKak

You missed the part about talking animals! I always talk to most animals I meet, but none of them have been able to communicate back with me Unless early humans could speak in animal tounges!

/boggle

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irateplatypus

i'd like to remind all the posters and those who read this thread that much of what has been said is either pure speculation about filling in gaps in Genesis' chronology or something dreamt up that has nothing to do with the authoritative biblical texts.

i believe the intention of the original post was to discuss this within the context of the biblical account. any mention of lilith or eve being created first is based upon ancillary documents that are not accepted in the torah.

thingstodo:

the question of biblical accuracy has nothing to do with your feelings or whims. historical fact is outside of us all. as for historical accuracy, nearly all of the events that can be independently corroborated do line up with old testament accounts. granted, there are a few chronological discrepencies and there are many events that have not been independently verified. since we are talking about genesis... the torah and all mosaic law has been held without deviation for millenia. a torah today is identical to one made 25 centuries ago. there are arguments to be made for translation problems, but that simply isn't true here.

and i hope this doesn't come off as smug, but i think you meant Constantine, not Constantinople. The first was the Roman emperor, the second was a city named in his honor.

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SecretMethod70

The problem of viewing Adam and Eve as actual people, incest, etc was apparent to me at a very young age. Around the same time I started learning about evolution and big bang, etc in fact. So, I sought answers of course and found exactly what sexymama mentioned earlier. Adam = man and Eve = woman. If that isn't obvious proof that the Adam and Eve story in genesis is metaphorical, I don't know what does. Officially, I know the Catholic Church also holds this view...can't speak for some of the more fundamental religions though.

As far how to rectify it with a literal interpretation, the only way to do it is through what are, IMO, extremely shoddy attempts at manipulating science to say what you'd like it to (i.e. "genetically perfect" which, I'm pretty positive, any respected geneticist would have a field day debunking the attributes that are attempted to be applied to that state.)

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Thagrastay

The Book of Genesis is attributed to Moses and is considered to be inspired of G*d. The whole point of the Creation story is to demonstrate that the Creator is a loving G*d who intended salvation from the very beginning. He created the Heavens and the Earth, created the Earth as a paradise exclusively for Man and gave all of the earth and everything on and in under it to Him to caretake and made Woman of man's own flesh and blood so that the two would be inseperable and have complete fellowship with the Earth, each other and G*d. But the Enemy came between them and caused division, and Adam, rather than defend his wife and partner, turned his back on her instead. G*d then told Adam that the Earth would raise up thorns against him and he would toil all his life because of his choices. Eve accused the Enemy and G*d reminded her that her purpose was to fellowship with Adam rather than serve herself and she would have pain in childbirth (a loneliness) because of her choices, abut that she would still long for her husband. G*D did not ask the Enemy anything, but instead told him that because of what he had done, he would pay, and that from the seed of the woman, G*d would raise up a redeemer to make right what the enemy had divided.
The Genesis Book follows from there how G*d goes about to fulfill that promise and how th enemy seeks to thwart that promise as best he can. If the Gene pool can be polluted or disrupted, then there can be no "Chosen One" who will one day come to redeem mankind and destroy the Enemy. At one point, the enemy had come so close, that G*d had to wipe out nearly the entire world and begin all over again, but he kept one righteous man with which to begin again- spiritually and genetically righteous- Noah and his wife and sons.
This is another aspect. The world had reached a technological peak that marvelled pretty much our own and was suddenly destroyed in a cataclysm the proof of which is world-wide. Overnight, Noah and his children were thrown into the stone age. They went from 8 couples to starting over again and passing along information must have been done by means of cave drawings and all manner of rudimentary forms of communication. Within a few generations, the whole of history would have taken on mythological proportions, just like to us the dark ages do because of a lack of pictures and real intel.
Before the flood there ws not much disease and decay and bacteria and virus. Post flood there would have been because of all the decay and rotting and destruction. That would ahve been the beginning. But still lifespans were in the hundreds of years.
I will find links, but they have dug up skeletal remains of civilizations throughout north and south america of human beings whose heights averaged between 8-13 feet. Many of them had conical skulls. Goliath was in that height range as well.

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irateplatypus

i'm not saying i disagree with the interpretation you subscribe to secretmethod, but could the reason adam=man and eve=woman be just that they were the first? i don't think the translated meaning of their names necessarily proves that they weren't actual people.

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SecretMethod70

No, you're right, it doesn't, but common sense dictates that it does. The Bible is a highly metaphorical text which isn't intended as a historical book in the way we know historical books. It's a spiritually historical book, but not literally historical. Thus, a metaphor displaying the spiritual history that God is the creator of all things.

Over-generally speaking, 98% of the time, if your interpretation of the Bible goes against scientific fact, your interpretation is likely wrong.

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prosequence

Although the Bible states that Adam and eve were the first, it DOES NOT say that he never made any more people after them.
So nay on the incest.

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bermuDa

what about the great flood where everyone but Noah's family was killed? I'd think that would imply incest moreso than adam and eve

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Thagrastay

Not necessarily- Noah had 4 sons and they each had 4 wives who were not necessarily related. It would be many generations before intermarriage became reality. By then it wouldn't be a problem.

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dy156

I wondered the same thing a long time ago, about the same time I learned about the birds and the bees -It should tell you something about my constant attendence at Sunday school at an early age.

I also wondered about the animal sacrifices- God had Noah take two of each kind of animal in the ark, therefore all the two animals offspring would have to mate with each other or their parents to reproduce. Also, what about the species that Noah ate/sacrificed for the 40 days and after he stopped on Mt. Arrarat?
Guess it must have been the unicorns.

irateplatypus

"Guess it must have been the unicorns."

haha, good lighhearted addition to this thread.

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~ Winston Churchill

skyscan

bad deal for the unicorns. =(

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