Parkhurst

Fascinating. Would you say this was on the basis that the people wouldn't want to see such art, or that the artist was not exposed enough to the world to conceive of the possible differences?

Or indeed is there some other reason behind this fact?

Perhaps taking this point the question could ask 'why has the depiction of Jesus remained Caucasian, despite evidence to the contrary?'

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asaris

I'm not sure of the the answers to your questions, actually. I'm a philosopher, not an art historian! But it just seems that people in the medieval era (and even the renaissance, for a bit -- the two can be hard to distinguish), people just didn't think about other times being different from their own.

As to why he remained Caucasian, there's probably two main reasons for this (though I'm really just pulling this out of my ass). First of all, anti-semitism, which had long been a feature of European Christianity. And second, anti-arab feeling, which was particularly strong in the 1600s, given the Turkish siege of Vienna. So people weren't really terribly eager to see their Lord and Saviour portrayed like one of the infidel invaders of Christian Europe. But again, that's just a guess.

And, of course, you don't want to discount the force of tradition, of "we've just always done it this way" either. My guess would be that the first non-white images of Christ may have been produced around the turn of the 19th century, since that's really when you get a historical consciousness in Europe, as well as a much heightened willingness to criticize tradition. But again, I'm no art historian.

My main point is just that the origins of "Christ as white" were not particularly racist, not that the continuation of such wasn't racist.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Strange Famous

Who could argue with Ras Kass???


Christians get your facts right
Cause Christ was not his name
That's Greek for "One who is anointed"
Yoshua Ben Yosef was his name, do Christians know this?
So who do you praise, do you know his name?
Or do you do this in vain?
Accepting the religion they gave slaves to behave
Peep the description of historian Josephus
"Short, dark, with an underdeveloped beard was Jesus"
He had the Romans fearing revolution
The solution was to take him to court and falsely accuse him
After being murdered by Pilate how can it be
these same white Romans established Christianity
Constantine would later see the cross in a dream
In his vision, it read "En Hawk Signo Wonka":
"In this sign we conquer" - Manifest Destiny
In 325 he convened the Nicean Creed
And separated god into three
Decided Jesus was born on December 25th
and raised then on the third day is a myth
Plus to deceive us
Commissioned Michelangelo to paint white pictures of Jesus
He used his aunt, uncle, and nephew
Subconsciously that affects you
It makes you put white people closer to God
(Yo, 'The Man' got game like a mother******!)

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without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

World's King

Can I give you a hug?

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gilada

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KellyC
I saw a special about Jesus on the Discovery Channel a while ago. They made a image of Jesus on the computer of what he should look like and the man turns out to have curly hair, bushy beard, and a round, chubby face, yeah dark skin like the Arabians too. [/QUOTE}
Yup, just about has I pictured him, just as soon as I got old enought to realize what people in that area of the world looked like. When you're young, I think you put all things unknown in a context that you're familiar with. Don't know what someone looks like, you think they look in a way you understand.

When I understood what people from the middle east looked like, I revised my image of him.

Then I started thinking about the fact that it was 2000 years ago, and on top of his looks, I bet he was dirty, and slightly smelly, just like I'm sure eveyrone else was then. Whether or not you believe he was the son of God, if you accept the human part of him, you gotta accept that.

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bermuDa

I didn't say that race was an acquired trait, but evolution does play a role in what genes are more successful in getting passed on. Modern medicine and technology might retard the process of evolution, but natural selection has played a larger role in the past.

As for jesus, I think it's easier for a congregation to accept their deity if he looks like them. Less so that "God created man in his own image", more like "Man created God in his own image."

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asaris

Interestingly enough (and as a bit of aside), there was a (very) old school of thought that believed Christ had leprosy.

And, Strange Famous, rant aside, many of us are perfectly aware what Christ's real name was (Jesus being the Greekified version of Joshua), and that "Christ" is an honorific, not a name.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Amarth

Don't get so hung up on the unimportant points. Focus on the message man!

Arsenic7

Race is a pretty silly thing anyways.

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riptide4070

Jesus was definitely not white, that misconception is part of da white mans conspiracy. Plus the bible claims He had hair like lambs wool.

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thingstodo

Blame it on Constantinople, the guy that twisted Paganism and Christianity together at some point after 1,000 AD so he could mesh the politics of his power base together. Much of what is in the current bible started with what he decided to do. Interesting since the white Jesus example is indicative of the accuracy of the modern day bible.

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Thagrastay

Jesus was a Hebrew. He was a Galilean Hebrew man who was olive complected, probably very tan from living and working outdoors, dark brown to Black hair, probably bearded, with brown eyes. The Bible says he was very ordinary looking and you wouldn't have noticed Him at all as he didn't stand out in a crowd until His ministry began and the Holy Spirit came upon Him. Then people were drawn to Him in droves. The Bible also says that after His beating and scouring, He was nearly unrecognizable. But as far as his pigment, He was a Nazarite Jew.

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prosequence

Hehehe, what the hell... I'll say Jesus is white.
Yep, that's right... ALBINO.

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Tholo

The images of Jesus bear a striking resemblance to the greek statuary and portrayal of creator zeus.

Coincidence? No.

Thats all I've got.

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Gortexfogg

Very interesting point. The anti-arabic feeling was also pretty strong during the couple of crusades back in the 1000s and 1100s and so on. Imagine if they had picutred Jesus as an Arabic looking person. Then during the crusades they'd be killing thousands of guys who looked just like Jesus...

As far as religion goes, it doesn't matter one bit what Jesus looked like. Historically, he looked like all the other people living in ancient Judea back then.

queedo

He looks white now because of King James and lots of others who desided to redo the Bible as they thought it should be.

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Reese

Jesus was only Half Jewish. I don't know if God was jewish...

Jesus was most likely really dark skinned, He spend 40 days in the desert with no shelter, He spent countless hours outdoors in the sun, everyone was pretty dark, but to say that Jewish people of 0 AD looked like anything other than Jewish people of 2000AD is a little far fetched.

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Ustwo

The Arab invasion of Isreal had not happened yet, so its rather doubtful he looked like one.

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J_Capeci

I agree with CSfilm's sarcasm. I honestly don't believe that the the earth has moved that much farther away from the sun in 2000 years to cause people's skin colour to significantly lighten. . .and what the does the thread poster mean when she say's that the less sun one sees the more pale ones skin? Yeah, it is true that if a white person would stay indoors during the summer he/she wouldn't get much of a tan, but I don't think this has any bearing in arguing why Jesus is portrayed as white nowadays. Maybe he always was. Perhaps he was Arab. I don't know.

BLACKAMOOR

Arabs are committing genocide in Darfur, Africa right now and guess what...
They're black arabs. This isn't any different than past historical events involving arabs. There are alot of truly black African Arabs, as well as Turks, and Moors.

BLACKAMOOR

Samson of the bible was a Nazarene from the tribe of Dan. The African tribe of Dan do not cut their hair to this day and their hair naturally forms about seven dreadlocks just like samson had; and that fact is written in scripture. Do you not believe Adam, Moses, Noah, and king Solomon to be black as well. I got news for ya... THEY ARE.

BLACKAMOOR

I can dig it. Maybe he had biblical leprosy aka vitilago aka the michael jackson skin disease. But I doubt it since this is the illness that god gives people who are to be cursed like moses's sister who disagreed with him marrying a midianite/ethiopian woman. 2 kings 5:27 is where the pale one originated as a race of man anyway. Read it for yourself, it says white as snow and there's more about it in Leviticus. I love white people myself though. And if the bible is made up by the true jews, then maybe this is a tell-tell sign that they don't like white people as much as white people would hope they do being that they take part in their religion and all. These true jews I speak of are the genetically proven Lemba in Africa and not the eukrainian converted ashkenazis that Hitler tried to off; hence giving them stolen ownership over palestinian lands in 1948 and calling it Israel.

Ustwo

I'm sure every race wants to claim that Jesus is somehow there’s, but Jesus lived in HISTORICAL times, not pre-history, in one of the greatest empires that has ever existed. His disciples spread across this empire and beyond.

If he were anything but a 'typical Jew' it would have been recorded. He wasn't arab, he wasn't ethiopian, he was Jewish of a type that has lived there for generations.

I may not believe in the divinity of Jesus, but I do believe in his existence, an existence that has been recorded.

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analog

My opinion: If you want to argue why he was portrayed as white, you needn't beat your head on the wall- the rich people who wanted paintings made him white. Done.

If you want to argue whether he was of typical jewish appearance or black, or something different, then you're just splitting hairs.

If you believe at all in jesus, you should know that he would likely slap his forehead and stand there in disbelief that people care what color his fuckin skin was, but don't give a shit enough about his teachings to be decent people. I've known plenty of people who i'd have to laugh if i ever reffered to them as decent, who have had this conversation. I don't understand it.

This is like the argument of whether God is male or female, both, neither, etc., in that it doesn't matter! It doesn't change anything!

If your faith is stronger because you believe he's purple, so be it. Go forth and love one another, with your purple Jesus.

Locobot

It turns out that we really have no clue as to exactly what Jesus looked like or what race we would consider him today. Our concepts of race are catagories based on what people look like today and are completely inapplicable to how people looked 2000 years ago. The traits we consider in our concepts of race do in fact change drastically in only a few generations especially in an area of social tumult like Israel.

Were the ancient Egyptians black or white? Arab or persian? We don't really know despite some of the best preserved human remains and artifacts from the ancient world: mummies and hieroglyphics. Most likely they had a racial makeup that we simply don't have a concept of today.

Biblical concepts of race stem from Noah's three sons (by three wives) Shem (where "semite" comes from), Ham, and Japeth who were told, after the flood, to spread out and populate the earth. Older books will refer to blacks as "Hammite" and Japeth's descendants apparently spread out over all of Asia. Was Noah a real person? Possibly, but certainly his story and that of his sons is creation myth with very little present day application.

So the short answer about Jesus's race: we don't know and it doesn't matter.

frogza

Jesus was the descendant of King David, he's lineage is outlined quite well in the New Testament. As people began studying the Bible, especially the artists, they came across descriptions of David and liked what they read. So, to make Jesus even more desirable to the masses, they used the descriptions of David to paint Jesus.

I have included a couple of references for a physical descirption of David, these are what the artists based their paintings on.

1 Samuel 16:12
And he sent, and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, and withal of a beautiful countenance, and goodly to look to. And the LORD said, Arise, anoint him: for this is he.

1 Sam. 17: 42
And when the Philistine looked about, and saw David, he disdained him: for he was but a youth, and ruddy, and of a fair countenance.

In King James' time ruddy meant a fair complexion that had been exposed to the sun. So in other words, a white person who had spent time outside.

In the Queen Valera translation of the Bible these two verses use the word blonde (rubio).

Whether Jesus fit the description of his forebearer, we don't know. Really the question is an acedemic one anyway, not truly important.

xepherys

a) 2000 years doesn't amount to much evolution.

b) Evolution has everything to do with skin color. *boggle*

c) Yes, and remember that people from that region today are lighter skinned than 200 years ago due to the influx of Europeans. Hell, look at Italians. A lot, especially Sicilians have pretty dark skin, and they're technically European.

d) Do you think that 2000 years ago people (because of relation, not evolution) from Egypt, Ethiopia or Palestine looked THAT much different? If so, can you present any data that might suggest so?

Ustwo

Actually with the artwork from the time, we have a pretty good idea of everyones color in the area.

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Charlatan

Ultimately, who cares what colour he was... as it stands few care who the real man was anyway. The whole point of Jesus, at this point in time, is symbolic.

It almost doesn't matter who the historical Jesus was... almost.

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florida0214

I fyou believe in evolution why ask about jesus? Isnt that a contradiction in itself. Think about it. The area of the world where they believe Jesus lived is still there and people still live there. If what we know as black today is what African americans are then it may be safe to say that they looked like that 2000 years ago. and it might be safe to say that people in the "holy land" do not look so terribly differant that you might confuse them as Africa American. I know caucasin ( I think thats how you spell it) that have curly hair and bushy beards. My Father for example. Anyway Hope you don't hate me just adding my two cents. Even though it wasnt asked for. And no I dont believe Jesus was White. i believe he was Middle eastern looking like everybody else who was born where and lived where he did. Stupid arrogant europeans. Nothing really existed till they acknowledged it. what a bunch of idiots.

jwoody

Welcome to TFP, florida0214...


kind regards,

your new friend in Europe.

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WillyPete

Personally, if I really need to base any kind of belief in the guy, I think I'll trust Josephus, Jewish and hebrew historians and Egyptian records that refer to the HEBREW people.

Lets get a few things right.
White is too general. Stand an Iraqi next to a Nigerian and the Iraqi can be tarred with the white brush.

Black is too general too. Put the Iraqi next to a blonde Swede and he is tarred 'black'.

I think we all ageree that he is not caucasian, but that he's also not negroid.

Check out this link if you really are bothered by the whole deal. Hebrew scholar that has REAL references, not half-assed 'we all used to be kings and queens Janet Jackson' bullshit.
http://britam.org/anthropology.html

That link points out that there's a lot of diversity and skin shading amongst the Hebrew tribes, going from very blonde with blue eyes to red hair and over to dark 'mediterranean' features.

Also remember that the Hebrews at the time of Christ were not fresh out of Egypt, they had been taken to Babylon as slaves and released few hundred years before.
The persians are the original Aryan people and would have contributed a lot to the then hebrew genetic makeup and features. Remember that word Aryan... some other guy was on about it half a century ago and it's funny what the considered features for Aryans were...

WillyPete

PS: dn't think I'm saying that Aryan was blonde and blue eyed and thus jesus was the same.
That's hitler's view, but he also got it from somewhere, probably modern christianity.

I'm sying the original Aryan blood would play a large role in the Hebrew features of the time.

florida0214

Sorry for that i am sure you can understand becuase well lets face it Americans did the same thing. well i think Americans were europeans at the time or mybe later on we were not. think about this was Victoria falls named anything before it became victoria falls? or did half-dome ever go by another name. or the mississippi river. Not to insult you or your family. but that is the way happened I believe.

Mojo_PeiPei

A. Exactly

B. Duh. However I don't really recall there being any pressing evolutionary challenges presented in the Middle East in the last 2,000 were skin color would greatly alter. If anything the skin color of the region would only have gotten darker as a result of the great Arab influx in the last 1500 years.

C. I would bet the farm the majority of European immigrants are Jewish, stemming from the Zionistic movement which really only has the steam of about 100 years (Maybe 130 if you want to get hardcore). Being Jewish, and all there resulting problems with the Arabs, I highly doubt there has been much inter-racial mixing, Jews rarely delve outside of their own mix as far as marriage and breeding, I doubt the Arabs in the region are any different.

D. I would think that people from Egypt and Palestine (those two looking similar) looked way different from cats in Ethopia, in that they weren't black. They were tanned ass mediterranian(sp) types, not straight up African Horn types.

The only data I have to support this is common sense. Have you ever seen an Egyptian? have you ever seen an Ethiopian, Or Somalian? They are BLACK, people on the mediterrian(sp) are not pure and simple.

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Ustwo

I know plenty of egyptians, they are not black.

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SirLance

I saw a very interesting special on the Shroud of Turin. Somebody had taken the image of the face from the shroud, and compared it to some early (5th or 6th century) artwork and coins, which very much resembled the face on the Shroud. Very middle-eastern looking.

There's an interesting site about it at http://www.duke.edu/~adw2/shroud/

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highthief

Actually Egypt is a pretty big ass country - many Egyptians are, in fact, pretty well black. It's like the US - is "white" what Americans look like?

Most are, however, more Arab looking.

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adysav

I know plenty of Palestinians and many of them are whiter than I am, being a fairly typical northern european myself.
The Islamic prophet Mohammed is (according to some sources) from a nomadic group of people out of what is now southern russia, so he wasn't as arab looking as people make out. Likelihood is he was whiter than Jesus, so maybe we should just swap the two round and call it a day.
Perhaps this is all just bullshit made up by people who like stirring trouble. Not that any of it makes the slightest bit of difference to anything. Religion is just another excuse for people to form groups and bash each others heads in.
We probably all came from the same place originally a few hundred thousand years ago, so a debate about the skin colour of some jewish nobody is a waste of time.
That probably won't go down too well as I'm guessing a lot of people here are rooting for the Dover School Board.

pan6467

WTF does it matter what color Jesus was?

Does his color make what he said any more or less relevant????? Well to neo fucking Nazis, skinheads, the KKK and fucking prejudiced assholes on both sides I guess it would.

However, to the people that truly follow HIM and try to the best of their ability to live the way he tried to teach, color and looks are as unimportant as whether HE was right or left handed.

It's what HE TAUGHT that matters, nothing else. To argue about what he looks like is about the stupidest and most inconsequential thing that one can do.

Accept what HE taught, try to live by what HE taught, not how some organized profit, political machine wants you to (Jesus was against any political machinations, he believed man's purpose was to help fellow men, not to rule over them, instill fear into them or take arms toward another).

Believe him to look anyway you like if you truly need him to look a certain way in order to believe. Hell, if you need to believe Jesus or your God are women..... so be it.

To me Jesus is pure light...... that's it nothing more, no human form, just pure light.

On a side note, I can almost guarantee the second people stop believing in organized religions and stop donating monies to these "religious" political machines, religion will be outlawed by any and all governments.

Jesus, Buddha, God, the Mythological deities of Greece, Rome, Norse, China, and so on, were all formed and drawn, sculpted, etc. to look like the targeted followers. That's what the people had to go by. But the looks of whichever you choose to believe should mean nothing..... the true value is believing what the deity you choose to follow taught.

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