Jesus Pimp

Why would it matter that he died since God is omnipotent and cannot die. Just his human shell died and went back to his place in the sky to never come back. Jesus supposedly died for our sins but there is still sin in the world. Doesn't make any sense to me.

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Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

chavos

i'll step outside of my personal theology for a moment.

assuming Jesus is as doctrine portrays: both God and man, both at once, 100% each. requires a bit of double think, but bear with me.

becoming Jesus, God empties God's self to inhabit a mortal form. that which is totally alien and other to our weakness, need and pain is brought in to not just awareness of the human condition, but experience of it.

sin, defined as that which is against, away or separated from God, is of course a reality of our world. Jesus, on the most basic level, experiences sin-he feels the pain and longing of separation from God. But, this does not mean the end of faith. through that pain, we are shown a new life in God, reconciled and redeemed. the work of Jesus is not to wipe out sin, but to offer us the alternative. long before, the deuteronomic author writes: "Behold today i set before you a blessing and a curse." Deut 11:26 kjv

We are always given the choice between living in communion with God, and away from God. Jesus worked to open the path to communion: showing God in our immediate lives, unbrokered, for all, and with out limit.

Now, there are other theologies to what the passion/ressurection means, but that's more or less the one i've come to put stock in as a student of the texts, and as a person of faith. I might quibble on what the divinity of Jesus is, and means, but that's tangent to the main arguement.

Jesus Pimp

So God before he became Jesus could not experience what it is to be a human yet he created us?

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Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

chavos

good question. simply, i don't know.

its possible that was the case. or its possible that its more important that we know that God has experienced humanity in its fullest and still declared God's love for us....for us to see God's love and image made manifest in a way we could identify with.

asaris

That's not quite right. Firstly, as we say in the creeds, "He descended into hell". Exactly what that means is certainly open to dispute, but I've never heard anyone claim that Christ spent his three days dead in heaven. Secondly, we teach the bodily resurrection of Christ. After Christ rose from the dead, he had (and has) a body. A human body. Thirdly, Christ's body wasn't, as you put it, a "human shell". He was really, truly, and fully human, just like he was really, truly, and fully God.*

So that leaves the question why his death matters. Christ died to atone for our sins. Why did he have to die? Because the wages of sin is death. Why are the wages of sin death? Because sin is, in its very essence, a turning of the back towards God, a rebellion against the person who is the source of our life. Bear in mind, again, that Christ really and truly died. He wasn't just faking it. How is it possibly that he died? Beats me. It happened, so it must be possible, but beyond that, I don't really have an answer.

Christ died to save us from our sins, yes, but it has never been claimed that this meant that there would no longer be sin in the world. It doesn't even mean that people who accept Christ's atonement won't sin anymore. It just means that our sins are forgiven, and we are no longer slaves to sin. An explanation of that would require someone who knows more theology than I.


*This has come up a few times: "Why believe Christ was fully God and fully man?" The Heidelberg Catechism gives a succinct summation of the argument, if you'll indulge a quick quote:

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Mojo_PeiPei

Depends. Jesus' body was not physical as you or me. Hence you have him walking on water and walking through walls. The body that was spoke of was his glorified body.

Going from there. Jesus was not God and God is not/was not Jesus. I suppose it really depends on what sect of beliefs you buy into. The Trinity though answers this question, although it is one of the most overwhelming concepts I have ever explored. Bottom Line three beings are one, yet all three are distinct.

But to answer the original question Asaris hit the nail on the head in regard to sin.

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To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

charlesesl

This maybe a bit of topic and quite stupid. But wouldn't it be cool be the guy that killed Juses, at least the next time someone tries to brag to you about his life achrivements you can replay "I killed god"

PS. I know its stupid, just thought its kind of interesting.

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It did not really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us.
Dr. Viktor E. Frankl

tiberry

Exactly HOW did we reach the conclusion that God was Jesus/Jesus was God???

Some folks even have elaborate scenarios where "God empties God's self into mortal form..." What?!!?? Where did that come from? Its amazing, the lengths we (humans) will go to contrive supporting rationale for some pre-conceived notion. Why can't the simplest answer be the 'right answer'?

What if Jesus was a man just like anyone else, except he 'got it'. He just understood the relationship (logical, not interpersonal) with god an humans. Of course it makes sense that we (humans) would kill him - probably out of fear or some derivitive emotion like jealousy. AND it would make sense that after we did, we worshipped him as GOD because only then did we even begin to understand what we'd done. That realization is the interpretation of "Jesus died for our sins". Its guilt...nothing else.

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My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

asaris

Of course, tiberry, there's no support whatsoever in the eyewitness accounts that we have for your view, which might be thought to be a little odd, were you correct. But that argument's in a different thread...

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

chavos

I'd disagree. Most biblical scholars would agree that the synoptic Gospels, especially Mark, do not contain a Christology that concieves of Jesus as co-equal with God. John is the strongest arguement for that theology...but that's written much later, probably a good seventy years or so after Calvary. You may certainly dissent...but i would reccomend at least giving acknowledgement for the fact that tiberry's arguement does in fact have basis in evidence.

asaris

All I'm asking for is some of that evidence.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

tiberry

I suppose I'm asking for "evidence" that supports that Jesus=God=Jesus. Its significantly different to think of Jesus as the son of god, than to hold that they are one in the same.

I agree - perhaps this is a discussion for another thread.

__________________
My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

asaris

There is another thread discussing this -- it's in the Spong thread. There I'm arguing (at the moment) that Jesus claims to be God.

__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

KeyKingKong

You forget in the Holy Trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. They are all one in the same and different at the same time. "The Father" is God, who created the earth, established life/rule and all that good stuff. The Holy Spirit is the part of God that lives within every human being. And as for the Son, that's Jesus. It mattered alot if he died. You're forgeting HUGE Christian mythology that says "He takes away the SINS of the world" so if you accept Jesus Christ as your "Lord and Savior" then he takes away your sins and you are saved, ergo you get into the pimp palace aka heaven. It makes sense. Although I'm not Christian myself, I just know alot abot alot of theologies.

Word, refresh yourself kid.

-Fire

chavos

that's one Christian theology of the Cross. not the only one....so perhaps it is not quite good to be so critical of the poster for not having exposure to that idea.