Why are so many people opposed...? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

wilywampa · 07-24-2003, 02:07 PM

archer: so where did god come from? and what the statement "the creation cannot be greater than the creator" based on?

supersix2 · 07-24-2003, 03:55 PM

Firefly you bring up an interesting point. Were does God come from?
Unfortunatley religion doesn't even answer that. Basically what it comes down to is that you must believe that He exists only because He is the creator. It doesn't sound like a very sound statement, but there are many things in science that are just as ambiguous. One is the anthropic principle, which basically states that the universe is the way it is because we are here to see it.
I'm not trying to change anyones minds about anything because basically its a futile effort. I can't make an athiest believe God exists the same way he or she can't make me believe he doesn't exist. It makes for good discussion but people shouldn't fight about it because no one is going to win. It is pompous to think, as a Christian, that we have the right to change people's mind about their religion. Yes, it does say in the bible to spread the word of God, but it doens't say to cram it down people's throats.
If they don't want to believe they won't simple as that. All we can do really is agree to disagree.
I don't mind discussing and debating whether or not God exists and how everything began. Such discussions are healthy. However, no one should ever try to change the others view because thats how fights get started and nothing productive ever came from fighting.

debaser · 07-24-2003, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by archer2371
WTF??! I wasn't talking about a singularity, I'm talking about matter, matter must be created by something that is not natural as the First Law of Thermodynamics states. This only leaves one option. A Creator. I'm not saying it's Yahweh, Allah, God, Buddah, what have you. I'm simply saying that a Divine Creator must exist (my personal viewpoint is that it is God, but I'm trying to present a small viewpoint and work up to the bigger picture). Thermodynamics deals with energy, and is not a singularity energy, and therefore wouldn't this law apply, something had to cause the Big Bang. (Which is what I assume is what you're talking about). The singularity had mass, which is made up of matter, which had to be made by an outside source that was NOT NATURAL. Thermodynamics applies to what the Big Bang started out as, a point no bigger than a period that had quite a lot of mass (made up of matter), it has quite a bit of energy, but it had to have an outside energy source to provoke it to explode, and thus spewing matter and energy (part of Thermodynamics mind you) everywhere and creating Universes and Worlds and a great many other things. Surely a person who is obviously well versed in the laws of physics must concede this point.

No, a person well versed in physics merely sees that you aren't. I'm not trying to be hostile, I'm just saying that, based on your statements on this board, you seem to lack knowlege about some of the basic principals you are using as basis for your "proof".

Again, physical laws break down when you aproach a singularity.

Also the first law is only mostly true, in that there are instances where energy is created spontaneously...

hobo · 07-24-2003, 11:22 PM

Someone said the theory of evolution isn't proven. Technically, it is. It is still called a theory because to be a law it requires a mathematical equation or something like that to be classified a law.

archer2371 · 07-25-2003, 12:22 AM

Ok, ok, sorry, got a little caught up in the argument there and used incomplete information that I shouldn't have. It took supersix2 and a time of 4 AM to calm me down. Sorry, I do that sometimes. You and I just have to agree to disagree as supersix2 says. Yet everything in our lives does esentially come down to faith. Whether that faith be that when you're crossing the street, some nut driving too fast doesn't hit you, or whether or not you believe in God, Allah, Buddah, Krishna, what have you. As far as the creation cannot be greater than the creator, it's true. Look at all that we humans have created, from the wheel, to the newest Intel Processor. None of those things that we came up with can match the prowess of the human mind, which can compute twenty thousand, trillion calculations per second. No computer can do that, and no computer will be able to be fully human. Sure, we can make it self aware, and give it the ability to make decisions, yet it will not be able to feel as we do, or react as we do. (Yeah, I know, I'm talking about a future Data, but I'm still trying to make a valid point here.) I personally see the brain as a gift from God, but you won't, because you don't believe in a God (I don't mean that in a hostile way tho). Humans only use two percent (or is it ten?) of their brains to do what they do everyday. If we tap into that other 98/90 percent, who's to say what the potential of man's of achievements is? We will be limitless in our abilities if we could ever fully harness the complete power of the brain, I mean, it would be to the extent where George Lucas would have to start telling us what was going on. Anyways, I have learned something from you debaser as well as from others who oppose my viewpoint, I certainly hope you haven't learned anything from me due to my passionful and reasonless statements. Good Day, and Good Night.

wilywampa · 07-25-2003, 04:31 AM

first of all, http://www.csicop.org/si/9903/ten-percent-myth.html

and second, when we create new life, we don't even use our brains. it's not like we sit and design the DNA sequence of every child. we have no control over the mutations passed along to our offspring, nor did any of the species from whom we evolved. the changes were/are essentially random, and those chosen by natural selection to survive will be passed on and will therefore improve the chances of survival of the organisms holding that gene

finally, you take it on faith that a car won't hit you when you cross a street? damn, you're gonna be naturally selected soon if you don't start looking both ways...

archer2371 · 07-25-2003, 09:10 AM

No, I look both ways, I was just using an example, whenever you cross the street (even with looking both ways) there's always a chance that a car will hit you. You may not conciously think about it, but you have some degree of faith and hope that someone won't run through a red light.

test8888 · 07-27-2003, 02:07 PM

I am perturbed by the notion of god, because god usually repersented transcently by an idea that is constructed by human historicially, but is then given a life of his or her own. And once this idea of god is detached from it's historically grounds and is an all encompassing idea, very horrible (and good) things can been done without valuing the other's understanding of the sitauation. "Our understanding must be right, because our god is the right/true god and our understanding follows from our god's system of understanding." The repersentation of reality that follows from one religion usually silences of others, often by exclusin, forced conversion or annihilation...

CSflim · 07-27-2003, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by archer2371
No, I look both ways, I was just using an example, whenever you cross the street (even with looking both ways) there's always a chance that a car will hit you. You may not conciously think about it, but you have some degree of faith and hope that someone won't run through a red light.

Thats not true. When I cross the road, I conclude that there is only a very slight chance in any horrible event occuring to me. I take this risk. No "faith" is involved what-so-ever.

CSflim · 07-27-2003, 03:46 PM

*Damn Double Post!*

omnigod · 07-27-2003, 07:56 PM

from the first page somewhere
---------------------------------------------------------------
The fact that scientists and archaelogists are finding evidence to prove stories in the Bible.
-----------------------------------------

Actually scientists and archaelogists are finding evidence to prove stories in the bible in a BAD way - i.e not for the religious people

Popular Mechanics - December 2001
Science solves more mysteries of the bible
Jericho Falls-
"So the people shouted and the trumpets were blown... they raised a great shout, and the wall fell down flat."
"Professor Amos Nur of the Department of Geophysics at Stanford University plotted the the epicenters of all earthquakes greater than magnitude 6.5 that have struck the Eastern Mediterranean region since 1910. when he ploted the sites of the city ruins, he found that neary all the cities lay in highly active earthquake zones - suggesting violent quakes could have redued the cities to rubble" pg 81

It also covers Manna from heaven, The dial of Ahaz and the Miracle of Fish. if you can get ahold of it, it is an interesting read.

Jesus Malverde · 07-27-2003, 11:07 PM

I believe in God, I just don't know what religion fits my beliefs. I still pray to whoever the master clockmaker is every night, although I don't know who that might be for me, since I don't follow a religion. I've seen prayers work, so I can't just live my life not paying respects to whoever my god is.

cph44 · 07-28-2003, 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by archer2371
WTF??! I wasn't talking about a singularity, I'm talking about matter, matter must be created by something that is not natural as the First Law of Thermodynamics states. ... Surely a person who is obviously well versed in the laws of physics must concede this point.

Actually, let me bounce that "WTF??!" right back at you. The First Law of Thermodynamics is not so much a law as a principle or rule of thum deduced from observations >>OF THE PHYSICAL WORLD AS IT EXISTS TODAY!!<< I think you got sidetracked by physicists arrogant use of the word "law." The First Law of Thermodynamics has weird exceptions at the quantum scale, where particles and antiparticles simply pop in and out of existence for extremely short times. Near a blackhole, this can actually result in the creation of matter (in a weird sense) when a particle/anti-particle pair come into existence near the event horizon of a black hole. The anti-particle is consumed by the black hole and the other particle escapes happily into the universe.

Though I concede that this process results in the decreased mass of the black hole (I don't understand why) would you argue that these particle/anti-particle pairs had to be created by a divine creator? It may be true, but who are you to claim that science "proves it must be so"? Many of the brightest physicists of this generation are spending their careers trying to understand the nature and genesis of matter, and you think that a principle of thermodynamics that you learned in high school has rocketed you to the secrets of the universe?

God may be real, but leave science out of it. God is about miracles, and miracles have no place in science.

Fibrosa · 07-28-2003, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by hobo
Someone said the theory of evolution isn't proven. Technically, it is. It is still called a theory because to be a law it requires a mathematical equation or something like that to be classified a law.

Actually that's not true, it's close, but not true.

Evolution is pretty much proven. No real scientist doubts that evolution happened-how it happened and the time frame involved is currently under debate.

When scientists speak of laws and theories they are speaking of two different things, as you correctly noted. The Law of Gravity, is the observation that what goes up, must come down (basically). The theory of gravity explains why that happens.

In general:
A law, is an observation. Something does this....

A theory explains observations. Something does this, because....

In other other words (

), saying that evolution is "only a theory", speaks towards a general ignorance of science (no offense to anyone).

archer2371 · 07-28-2003, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by cph44
\

God may be real, but leave science out of it. God is about miracles, and miracles have no place in science.

Read my previous post about my using incomplete information when I shouldn't have. Or whichever post it is where I think that the Brain is a God given gift.

Atomsk · 07-28-2003, 07:45 PM

one argument i heard was simply that if there was a god and he is supposed to be a morally supperior creature why would he cause us pain on a daily basis. we all want something to beleive in but if god is so morally superior then why does he cause us pain? would that not make him a malicious and pointless bully? what kind of god would that be? we view anyone who tortures and kills animals and other people as a vile creature why should god be exempt from that?

jwoody · 07-29-2003, 03:12 AM

Many god theorists seem to talk like there is nothingness outside of the known universe. If you could, try to imagine our universe as an insignignificant spec of dust in an almost infinately bigger entity with millions of 'big bangs' going off every second. Multiply that by the number planets in the milky way galaxy, multiply that by number of galaxies and add something for all the, as yet, unknowns.

If you still think is some entity that is constantly monitoring your every thought and deed then this entity must be pretty fucking clever if you ask me.

As Jim Carrey said in that awful god botherer film: "smite me, oh mighty smiter and I'll bite your arse." or something like that.

I can't believe I took the flame bait on this one.

jwoody · 07-29-2003, 03:12 AM

Many god theorists seem to talk like there is nothingness outside of the known universe. If you could, try to imagine our universe as an insignignificant spec of dust in an almost infinately bigger entity with millions of 'big bangs' going off every second. Multiply that by the number planets in the milky way galaxy, multiply that by number of galaxies.

If you still think is some entity that is constantly monitoring your every thought and deed then this entity is pretty fucking clever if you ask me.

I can't believe I took the flame bait on this one.

butthead · 07-29-2003, 10:38 AM

Quote:

As far as I know the laws of science are perfectly capable of accounting for a number of possible "causes" of the creation of the Universe that don't include a capital-G God.

They are untested hypotheses with no proof.

What's your point?

water_boy1999 · 07-29-2003, 02:41 PM

http://www.truthtree.com/Religion/posts/8980.html

I would recommend this quote from Daniel C. Dennett, a professor of philosophy at Tufts University.

As for myself, I couldn't possibly be convinced in any way, shape or form. I am a logical thinker and I need substance and tangible qualities of something to believe in it. I believe in evolution. I have taken both cultural and physical anthropology classes to strengthen my viewpoints. I grew up a christian, but I had internal struggles with what I truly believed because I didn't want to conform to what everyone else thought. If you didn't have the same viewpoints as the rest of the members in your church, you were not made to feel welcome. I always wondered why the christians seemed so self-righteous, we have the one true god, he is the creator, he lays out the path that you will walk on for the rest of your life.....etc, etc....., blah, blah, blah...well, there are a lot of other religions in this world as well that have a different view. Whether it be Buddism, Brights, Satanism, Taoism, Paganism, Momormonism, Catholocism, all have a different view of how things were created and what our underlying purpose in life is. Are we to judge the rest of the free thinkers out there because they don't have the same "god" as we do? Hmmm....

tinfoil · 07-29-2003, 06:10 PM

Some people see this opposition as fear, fear that they may in fact be wrong or fear of the total power this God may have.

It's actually a valid point. Most people would say it's way off base, but I think this fear is so deep within the conscious that they can't admit it.

butthead · 07-30-2003, 01:36 PM

Quote:

It's actually a valid point. Most people would say it's way off base, but I think this fear is so deep within the conscious that they can't admit it.

What makes you so sure of this?

Uocom · 07-30-2003, 07:51 PM

"Well the First Law of Thermodynamics proves there is at least a Divine Creator."

Your post gives me a good chance to debunk two major religious misconceptions. First off, you are implying the matter would have to be created. And at first this would seem logical. However, like that other fella said, the first law does not apply to a singularity, which is the state the universe was in at the time of the big bang. Also to be considered is the fact that time is not some linear constant. Time is a dimension like width or height, so you can't consider the universe some unfolding story or something. If time is not a constant, the whole concept of "creation" becomes unclear. Also, evolution the process is fact. The method by which it takes place is the Theory of Evolution. Evolution is just what the arisal of more complex animals from less complex animals by some means is called. Animals evolve, and that can be observed with some birds and simple single-celled organisms. As a result, that evolution takes place is fact. The theory is regarding how it takes place. So, don't let yourself be thrown off by the word "theory."

Oh, another thing before you bring it up. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to evolution. Many Creationists claim that the 2nd law says that higher complexity can't come from something less complex. They neglect the fact that the second law applies to a closed system though. Since the Earth recieves a constant huge supply of energy from the sun, it is by no means a closed system, and the energy necessary for something to become more complex from something less complex is easily supplied. A simple example would be water melting. The state of the water is becoming more energized, but this is allowed to happen because the water is in an open system, and heat(energy) is being supplied from somewhere.

wlcm · 07-31-2003, 01:32 AM

I am not afraid of the notion of god.

I in fact now turn my beliefs around to yet an orthagonal direction and contend that not only does your god exist, but yet another mightier god presides over your god. But you would never know that because you have absolute faith in what your god told you, but the truth is that your god lied to you. Sure your god has magnificent powers, but mine is mightier still. But, you'd never be able to tell the difference though since you can't comprenhend such power and just believe it on faith alone. Your god told you that yours was the only god, but in fact there is a whole league of gods...a League of Extrodinary Gods even. Now that i have revealed the truth to you, how can my new faith?

You say god told you he was the mightiest, i tell you he lied, but for all practical purposes, you wouldn't be able to comprehend the difference anyways.

God tells you he made earth. I tell you that some other god made venus, and yet another still made the sun.

Is there any religious artifact or book that discounts that god might have lied to you in the first place? Dare I claim that it was all a ruse?

If your god isn't the almighty of mightiest, can you really respect, worship and really even call him god anymore?

Now that i think about it... the higher up god that revealed to me this truth might have been a poser as well.

Oh well back to just not believeing in god's existance. Maybe better yet i'll say that its more believable that an entitiy with finite powers greater than that of BC era humans came and influenced the creatation of the various religions than an actual god that created everything that happened to have sparked various different religions.

But once again i've confused myself. Could someone clarify for me whose god am i supposed to be afraid of?

wilywampa · 07-31-2003, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tinfoil
Some people see this opposition as fear, fear that they may in fact be wrong or fear of the total power this God may have.

It's actually a valid point. Most people would say it's way off base, but I think this fear is so deep within the conscious that they can't admit it.

isn't it more likely that religious people fear that there is no higher power watching over or taking care of them?

Varese · 08-05-2003, 04:34 PM

because there is no phsyical proof that he exists. And although I believe that OJ did it, I don't believe in God. At least not a God represented by any organized religion i've seen.

Macheath · 08-06-2003, 09:11 PM

Just opposed to people lording over and exploiting their fellow man in the NAME of God.

neoinoakleys · 08-11-2003, 11:51 AM

Not opposed to GOD, just need more evidence and/or reasoning...

scoobydugan · 08-13-2003, 11:04 PM

How do u guys know that these laws are true/correct? I'm sure that cavemen had theyre own laws of thermodynamics and shit like that...guess what, it's only a matter of time before we find that these laws might be incorrect....Would u believe someone if they told you they were the son of god? I sure as hell wouldn't....I bet he told someone his story and they decided they were gonna a write a book about it....they called it the bible because it sounds fancy......thats my theory lol or lack-there-of

cph44 · 08-14-2003, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by scoobydugan
How do u guys know that these laws are true/correct? I'm sure that cavemen had theyre own laws of thermodynamics and shit like that...guess what, it's only a matter of time before we find that these laws might be incorrect....

Do you like driving? Then you better hope thermodynamics is more accurate than what the cavemen had. And forget air conditioning. And computers. And just about everything else that the cavemen didn't have but we do.

Science doesn't claim to be the truth. It's just a method for rejecting or accepting theories that seem to match well with what we observe in nature. Nothing more, nothing less. And scientific thinking, whether absolutely constrained by the rigorous scientific method or not, produced every single useful tool man has ever used. And that includes chipped stones.

Why does a forum about the existence of God keep coming back to science? Faith and science can never have anything to do with each other, because science's lack of faith is what makes it science.

Ramble ramble ramble.

07-25-2003, 12:22 AM	#45 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	Ok, ok, sorry, got a little caught up in the argument there and used incomplete information that I shouldn't have. It took supersix2 and a time of 4 AM to calm me down. Sorry, I do that sometimes. You and I just have to agree to disagree as supersix2 says. Yet everything in our lives does esentially come down to faith. Whether that faith be that when you're crossing the street, some nut driving too fast doesn't hit you, or whether or not you believe in God, Allah, Buddah, Krishna, what have you. As far as the creation cannot be greater than the creator, it's true. Look at all that we humans have created, from the wheel, to the newest Intel Processor. None of those things that we came up with can match the prowess of the human mind, which can compute twenty thousand, trillion calculations per second. No computer can do that, and no computer will be able to be fully human. Sure, we can make it self aware, and give it the ability to make decisions, yet it will not be able to feel as we do, or react as we do. (Yeah, I know, I'm talking about a future Data, but I'm still trying to make a valid point here.) I personally see the brain as a gift from God, but you won't, because you don't believe in a God (I don't mean that in a hostile way tho). Humans only use two percent (or is it ten?) of their brains to do what they do everyday. If we tap into that other 98/90 percent, who's to say what the potential of man's of achievements is? We will be limitless in our abilities if we could ever fully harness the complete power of the brain, I mean, it would be to the extent where George Lucas would have to start telling us what was going on. Anyways, I have learned something from you debaser as well as from others who oppose my viewpoint, I certainly hope you haven't learned anything from me due to my passionful and reasonless statements. Good Day, and Good Night. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

07-25-2003, 09:10 AM	#47 (permalink)
archer2371 Sarge of Blood Gulch Red Outpost Number One Location: On the front lines against our very enemy	No, I look both ways, I was just using an example, whenever you cross the street (even with looking both ways) there's always a chance that a car will hit you. You may not conciously think about it, but you have some degree of faith and hope that someone won't run through a red light. __________________ "This ain't no Ice Cream Social!" "Hey Grif, Chupathingy...how bout that? I like it...got a ring to it." "I have no earthly idea what it is I just saw, or what this place is, or where in the hell O'Malley is! My only choice is to blame Grif for coming up with such a flawed plan. Stupid, stupid Grif."

07-27-2003, 03:46 PM	#50 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	Damn Double Post! __________________

07-27-2003, 07:56 PM	#51 (permalink)
omnigod Tilted	from the first page somewhere --------------------------------------------------------------- The fact that scientists and archaelogists are finding evidence to prove stories in the Bible. ----------------------------------------- Actually scientists and archaelogists are finding evidence to prove stories in the bible in a BAD way - i.e not for the religious people Popular Mechanics - December 2001 Science solves more mysteries of the bible Jericho Falls- "So the people shouted and the trumpets were blown... they raised a great shout, and the wall fell down flat." "Professor Amos Nur of the Department of Geophysics at Stanford University plotted the the epicenters of all earthquakes greater than magnitude 6.5 that have struck the Eastern Mediterranean region since 1910. when he ploted the sites of the city ruins, he found that neary all the cities lay in highly active earthquake zones - suggesting violent quakes could have redued the cities to rubble" pg 81 It also covers Manna from heaven, The dial of Ahaz and the Miracle of Fish. if you can get ahold of it, it is an interesting read. Last edited by omnigod; 07-27-2003 at 08:00 PM..

07-27-2003, 11:07 PM	#52 (permalink)
Jesus Malverde Psycho Location: Sinaloa, Mexico	I believe in God, I just don't know what religion fits my beliefs. I still pray to whoever the master clockmaker is every night, although I don't know who that might be for me, since I don't follow a religion. I've seen prayers work, so I can't just live my life not paying respects to whoever my god is. __________________ ...I'm that cat by the bar toasting to the good life...

07-24-2003, 02:07 PM	#41 (permalink)
wilywampa Loser	archer: so where did god come from? and what the statement "the creation cannot be greater than the creator" based on?

07-24-2003, 03:55 PM	#42 (permalink)
supersix2 Insane Location: Houston	Firefly you bring up an interesting point. Were does God come from? Unfortunatley religion doesn't even answer that. Basically what it comes down to is that you must believe that He exists only because He is the creator. It doesn't sound like a very sound statement, but there are many things in science that are just as ambiguous. One is the anthropic principle, which basically states that the universe is the way it is because we are here to see it. I'm not trying to change anyones minds about anything because basically its a futile effort. I can't make an athiest believe God exists the same way he or she can't make me believe he doesn't exist. It makes for good discussion but people shouldn't fight about it because no one is going to win. It is pompous to think, as a Christian, that we have the right to change people's mind about their religion. Yes, it does say in the bible to spread the word of God, but it doens't say to cram it down people's throats. If they don't want to believe they won't simple as that. All we can do really is agree to disagree. I don't mind discussing and debating whether or not God exists and how everything began. Such discussions are healthy. However, no one should ever try to change the others view because thats how fights get started and nothing productive ever came from fighting.

07-24-2003, 11:22 PM	#44 (permalink)
hobo Archangel of Change	Someone said the theory of evolution isn't proven. Technically, it is. It is still called a theory because to be a law it requires a mathematical equation or something like that to be classified a law.

07-25-2003, 04:31 AM	#46 (permalink)
wilywampa Loser	first of all, http://www.csicop.org/si/9903/ten-percent-myth.html and second, when we create new life, we don't even use our brains. it's not like we sit and design the DNA sequence of every child. we have no control over the mutations passed along to our offspring, nor did any of the species from whom we evolved. the changes were/are essentially random, and those chosen by natural selection to survive will be passed on and will therefore improve the chances of survival of the organisms holding that gene finally, you take it on faith that a car won't hit you when you cross a street? damn, you're gonna be naturally selected soon if you don't start looking both ways...

07-27-2003, 02:07 PM	#48 (permalink)
test8888 Upright	I am perturbed by the notion of god, because god usually repersented transcently by an idea that is constructed by human historicially, but is then given a life of his or her own. And once this idea of god is detached from it's historically grounds and is an all encompassing idea, very horrible (and good) things can been done without valuing the other's understanding of the sitauation. "Our understanding must be right, because our god is the right/true god and our understanding follows from our god's system of understanding." The repersentation of reality that follows from one religion usually silences of others, often by exclusin, forced conversion or annihilation...

07-28-2003, 07:45 PM	#56 (permalink)
Atomsk Crazy	one argument i heard was simply that if there was a god and he is supposed to be a morally supperior creature why would he cause us pain on a daily basis. we all want something to beleive in but if god is so morally superior then why does he cause us pain? would that not make him a malicious and pointless bully? what kind of god would that be? we view anyone who tortures and kills animals and other people as a vile creature why should god be exempt from that?

07-29-2003, 03:12 AM	#57 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	Many god theorists seem to talk like there is nothingness outside of the known universe. If you could, try to imagine our universe as an insignignificant spec of dust in an almost infinately bigger entity with millions of 'big bangs' going off every second. Multiply that by the number planets in the milky way galaxy, multiply that by number of galaxies and add something for all the, as yet, unknowns. If you still think is some entity that is constantly monitoring your every thought and deed then this entity must be pretty fucking clever if you ask me. As Jim Carrey said in that awful god botherer film: "smite me, oh mighty smiter and I'll bite your arse." or something like that. I can't believe I took the flame bait on this one. __________________ .

07-29-2003, 03:12 AM	#58 (permalink)
jwoody Shackle Me Not Location: Newcastle - England.	Many god theorists seem to talk like there is nothingness outside of the known universe. If you could, try to imagine our universe as an insignignificant spec of dust in an almost infinately bigger entity with millions of 'big bangs' going off every second. Multiply that by the number planets in the milky way galaxy, multiply that by number of galaxies. If you still think is some entity that is constantly monitoring your every thought and deed then this entity is pretty fucking clever if you ask me. I can't believe I took the flame bait on this one. __________________ .

07-29-2003, 02:41 PM	#60 (permalink)
water_boy1999 Fly em straight! Location: Above and Beyond	http://www.truthtree.com/Religion/posts/8980.html I would recommend this quote from Daniel C. Dennett, a professor of philosophy at Tufts University. As for myself, I couldn't possibly be convinced in any way, shape or form. I am a logical thinker and I need substance and tangible qualities of something to believe in it. I believe in evolution. I have taken both cultural and physical anthropology classes to strengthen my viewpoints. I grew up a christian, but I had internal struggles with what I truly believed because I didn't want to conform to what everyone else thought. If you didn't have the same viewpoints as the rest of the members in your church, you were not made to feel welcome. I always wondered why the christians seemed so self-righteous, we have the one true god, he is the creator, he lays out the path that you will walk on for the rest of your life.....etc, etc....., blah, blah, blah...well, there are a lot of other religions in this world as well that have a different view. Whether it be Buddism, Brights, Satanism, Taoism, Paganism, Momormonism, Catholocism, all have a different view of how things were created and what our underlying purpose in life is. Are we to judge the rest of the free thinkers out there because they don't have the same "god" as we do? Hmmm.... __________________ Doh!!!! -Homer Simpson

07-29-2003, 06:10 PM	#61 (permalink)
tinfoil Fucking Hostile Location: Springford, ON, Canada	Some people see this opposition as fear, fear that they may in fact be wrong or fear of the total power this God may have. It's actually a valid point. Most people would say it's way off base, but I think this fear is so deep within the conscious that they can't admit it. __________________ Get off your fuckin cross. We need the fuckin space to nail the next fool martyr.

07-30-2003, 07:51 PM	#63 (permalink)
Uocom Upright	"Well the First Law of Thermodynamics proves there is at least a Divine Creator." Your post gives me a good chance to debunk two major religious misconceptions. First off, you are implying the matter would have to be created. And at first this would seem logical. However, like that other fella said, the first law does not apply to a singularity, which is the state the universe was in at the time of the big bang. Also to be considered is the fact that time is not some linear constant. Time is a dimension like width or height, so you can't consider the universe some unfolding story or something. If time is not a constant, the whole concept of "creation" becomes unclear. Also, evolution the process is fact. The method by which it takes place is the Theory of Evolution. Evolution is just what the arisal of more complex animals from less complex animals by some means is called. Animals evolve, and that can be observed with some birds and simple single-celled organisms. As a result, that evolution takes place is fact. The theory is regarding how it takes place. So, don't let yourself be thrown off by the word "theory." Oh, another thing before you bring it up. The second law of thermodynamics does not apply to evolution. Many Creationists claim that the 2nd law says that higher complexity can't come from something less complex. They neglect the fact that the second law applies to a closed system though. Since the Earth recieves a constant huge supply of energy from the sun, it is by no means a closed system, and the energy necessary for something to become more complex from something less complex is easily supplied. A simple example would be water melting. The state of the water is becoming more energized, but this is allowed to happen because the water is in an open system, and heat(energy) is being supplied from somewhere.

07-31-2003, 01:32 AM	#64 (permalink)
wlcm Tilted Location: Austin, TX	I am not afraid of the notion of god. I in fact now turn my beliefs around to yet an orthagonal direction and contend that not only does your god exist, but yet another mightier god presides over your god. But you would never know that because you have absolute faith in what your god told you, but the truth is that your god lied to you. Sure your god has magnificent powers, but mine is mightier still. But, you'd never be able to tell the difference though since you can't comprenhend such power and just believe it on faith alone. Your god told you that yours was the only god, but in fact there is a whole league of gods...a League of Extrodinary Gods even. Now that i have revealed the truth to you, how can my new faith? You say god told you he was the mightiest, i tell you he lied, but for all practical purposes, you wouldn't be able to comprehend the difference anyways. God tells you he made earth. I tell you that some other god made venus, and yet another still made the sun. Is there any religious artifact or book that discounts that god might have lied to you in the first place? Dare I claim that it was all a ruse? If your god isn't the almighty of mightiest, can you really respect, worship and really even call him god anymore? Now that i think about it... the higher up god that revealed to me this truth might have been a poser as well. Oh well back to just not believeing in god's existance. Maybe better yet i'll say that its more believable that an entitiy with finite powers greater than that of BC era humans came and influenced the creatation of the various religions than an actual god that created everything that happened to have sparked various different religions. But once again i've confused myself. Could someone clarify for me whose god am i supposed to be afraid of?

08-05-2003, 04:34 PM	#66 (permalink)
Varese Upright	because there is no phsyical proof that he exists. And although I believe that OJ did it, I don't believe in God. At least not a God represented by any organized religion i've seen.

08-06-2003, 09:11 PM	#67 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	Just opposed to people lording over and exploiting their fellow man in the NAME of God.

08-11-2003, 11:51 AM	#68 (permalink)
neoinoakleys Psycho Location: Michigan	Not opposed to GOD, just need more evidence and/or reasoning... __________________ It's My Duty to Please That Booty!!

08-13-2003, 11:04 PM	#69 (permalink)
scoobydugan Crazy	How do u guys know that these laws are true/correct? I'm sure that cavemen had theyre own laws of thermodynamics and shit like that...guess what, it's only a matter of time before we find that these laws might be incorrect....Would u believe someone if they told you they were the son of god? I sure as hell wouldn't....I bet he told someone his story and they decided they were gonna a write a book about it....they called it the bible because it sounds fancy......thats my theory lol or lack-there-of