Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Philosophy


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 01-13-2011, 07:35 AM   #1 (permalink)
Upright
 
Argument from progression and argument from prosperity

Argument from progression and argument from prosperity

Two arguments from the stand point of utilitarian realism (as applied in practical ethics)
Exemplified in the context of European colonialism in the new world.

Materialistic prosperity isn’t gained by sniffing flowers or watching the clouds. Throughout history people have done what is necessary, and even more often they have done what , in the eyes of history, haven’t been necessary, but simply in their best interest. For generations beyond counting people have sacrificed time and wealth, sometimes their lives, and sometimes the lives of others, in order to progress civilization. Most of the time they have not done so intentionally, but progression has rather been a secondary effect of primary, short-term motives. These motives, the same as always – wealth, power, and somewhat more recently, knowledge and information.

This progression of ideals is exclusively at the expense of others. No single invention, whether it be a cultural, religious or technological one, has been made without suffering as a cause, and suffering as a consequence, but in the world view of a modern idealist this doesn’t seem to be true. In his mind there is a perfect image where there is always an option where no one gets hurt, and everyone gets what they want. The example being used above all others is that of the indigenous peoples of the Americas. According to the idealist they lived harmonious, fulfilling lives as one with nature, without prejudice and without suffering. This is no doubt a romanticized view. When studying the history of pre-Columbian America, specifically north America, it becomes clear that this is simply not the truth. The philosophy behind it is the same, but reality was far from the perfected version described.

This is where I choose to argue from the standpoint of progression. Even if what is described was true, then the fact remains that these tribes and clans were disorganized nomads, who over a timeline as long as that of Europe and China had not gotten any further than the Chinese had in 3000 BCE, and the Europeans had at the beginning of antiquity. These peoples did not have the cultural preconditions for organized civilization. Just as with biological evolution there is an evolution of thought, where there are dead branches of the tree of life, branches that are there for no other purpose than to become victims of prevailing schools of thought. That is not to say the indigenous peoples of America were any less human than the Europeans who came to colonize their land, or that it was written in stone that they would ended up being the backward natives of a distant shore, rather than the explorers who made the 30 day trip across open sea to discover new land.

Here the argument from prosperity takes over and states that since the idealist reaps the benefits of expansionism, imperialism and colonialism he is just as guilty as those who actually enslaved the tribal societies of the new world.
However, the argument from prosperity also states that the idealist, and everyone else for that matter, shouldn't feel bad about what their ancestral community did, because without those very deeds he would not be here thinking about it and without these deeds, science and reason would not have developed. Without these acts of cruelty and oppression, modern tolerance would not have evolved, because it is a precondition to any new ideal that it has other branches of the tree of thought to be tested against.
There is no reason to think that the native American tribal society would have evolved into a flourishing civilization of trade, culture and innovation, like the European and Chinese did, even if it had gotten another thousand or two thousand years. This branch was a dead end for the progress of humanity, and therefore was a necessary evil in the long evolution that led to modern society.

To summarize:

The argument from progression - It is preconditional for any ideal to have other ideals to compete with. Without dead branches on the tree of thought there would be no progression; failed ideals are necessary evils.

The argument from prosperity - If the argument from progression is true, then subsequently the decisions of the ancestral community were necessary, and to argue against those decisions would be to bite the hand that feeds. Anyone who, by declaring those decisions wrong, and is yet taking advantage of the benefits of those decisions, would be without credibility.

Are these two arguments valid from an ethical point of view?
Does this help in making a seemingly all-together cruel world less so?
Can suffering ever be justified or is this type of utilitarianism taking it one step too far?

Last edited by Thrakum; 01-13-2011 at 07:59 AM..
Thrakum is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:42 AM   #2 (permalink)
I Confess a Shiver
 
Plan9's Avatar
 
This is a discussion forum, chief.

What's your question?
__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."
Plan9 is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:44 AM   #3 (permalink)
Asshole
 
The_Jazz's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Chicago
This is a nice lecture, but what do you want us to discuss? You've taken both sides of the argument and made it difficult to do much more than nod in agreement.
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo
The_Jazz is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 07:59 AM   #4 (permalink)
Upright
 
Edited a few questions.
Thrakum is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 08:28 AM   #5 (permalink)
Asshole
 
The_Jazz's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Chicago
Oh, I can't wait until Pai Mei finds this thread. That will inject some life into it.

Now, that said, there are some obvious exceptions to your claim about pre-Columbian folks, most notably the Aztec and the Inca (although there were several others). Both had cultures and technology far beyond China c. 3000 BCE. There were significant cities and innumerable towns/permanent settlements that stretched ran the length of both continents. Calling these a "dead branch" of humanity ignores the very real impact of disease on those cultures. Cortez's subugation of the Aztec was no foregone conclusion and was a very close thing. It has been argued that it wasn't Cortez who actually overthrew the Aztec but the dominated neighbors who had been waiting for the opportunity.

So it's hard for me to answer your question since the premise for the arguement is based on a basic misunderstanding.

As for your last question, though, until humanity develops foresight, it's a moot point since humans will always act on what they think the best solution for "right now" is, not what is best for 100 years from now.
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo
The_Jazz is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 08:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
Upright
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
Now, that said, there are some obvious exceptions to your claim about pre-Columbian folks, most notably the Aztec and the Inca (although there were several others).
I did specify that I was talking about north america.
"When studying the history of pre-Columbian America, specifically north America, it becomes clear that this is simply not the truth."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
As for your last question, though, until humanity develops foresight, it's a moot point since humans will always act on what they think the best solution for "right now" is, not what is best for 100 years from now.
The rise of environmentalism would beg the differ?
We could quite happily live out our days blissfully ignorant, and our children could probably do the same. It would only be after that people in our part of the world would start getting into trouble.

Last edited by Thrakum; 01-13-2011 at 08:46 AM..
Thrakum is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 08:51 AM   #7 (permalink)
Asshole
 
The_Jazz's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Chicago
North America includes Mexico under all definitions, so my example of the Aztec remains accurate. If you're going to get technical, subsitute the Maya for the Inca. Add in the Tarascans for effect.

And environmentalism only took hold when it became obvious that one could turn a profit from it.
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo
The_Jazz is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
Upright
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
North America includes Mexico under all definitions, so my example of the Aztec remains accurate. If you're going to get technical, subsitute the Maya for the Inca. Add in the Tarascans for effect.
And yet none of these landed on the shores of France.
Yes, there were several interesting aspects of pre-culumbian civilization in the americas. The mayans understanding of astronomy for example. At large however, they were several centuries behind Han China, golden age Islam and Renaissance Europe.

Note as well that I'm mainly talking about civilization here, i.e. culture and government, not so much about science. Most of these civilizations, even the Aztecs and Mayans, were still living in largely tribal societies. At a time when most of Europe was under the influence of a handful of great powers, the middle east was divided between the Ottoman empire and Persia, and China was unified into one nation, those dozen cultures in the americas that had anything resembling organized culture, were decetralized to the point that historians still argue that calling them empires is nothing but bad wording.

Last edited by Thrakum; 01-13-2011 at 09:14 AM..
Thrakum is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:26 AM   #9 (permalink)
Asshole
 
The_Jazz's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Chicago
Wait, now the metric for civilization is sailing technology? Then as soon as the Han Chinese dumped the Treasure Fleet, they went back to the Stone Age. And that makes this conversation now include the Norse and (probably) the Irish monks in their little leather boats.

Let's remember that Renaissance Europe landed on the beaches of North America not because that's where they wanted to go but because of a fundamental and huge mistake in the understanding of the shape and scale of the globe. It's a bit difficult to point to Renaissance Europe as the high-point-to-date in terms of technology when they were behind both the Arabs and the Chinese in almost all real metrics in November, 1492. The Chinese had recently sailed a fleet to Africa, portaged huge ships to the Nile (albeit using some pre-existing canals built by the Arabs) then to Venice in the 1450's.

The Mayans were behind the Han, Islam and the Renaissance how exactly? Using what as a measuring stick? The Mayans had a more advanced calendar and the most advanced understanding of astronomy until the advent of the telescope. The Aztec had the only mandatory educational system in the world and Tlatelolco (Mexico City) was one of the largest in the world when Cortez got there.
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo
The_Jazz is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 09:43 AM   #10 (permalink)
Upright
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
Wait, now the metric for civilization is sailing technology?
As I wrote before:
Note as well that I'm mainly talking about civilization here, i.e. culture and government, not so much about science.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
The Mayans were behind the Han, Islam and the Renaissance how exactly? Using what as a measuring stick? The Mayans had a more advanced calendar and the most advanced understanding of astronomy until the advent of the telescope. The Aztec had the only mandatory educational system in the world and Tlatelolco (Mexico City) was one of the largest in the world when Cortez got there.
Yet none of this seems to have mattered. Just as in a science experiment, you need the right amount of all ingredients for a successful blend.

A savour of curiousity toward exploration and innovation.
Enough governmental centralization to be able to support a substantial non-agricultural population.
Enough regionalism and/or a robust legal system to dissolve cultural monopolies.


EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
Using what as a measuring stick?
Everything except astronomy and mandatory schooling

Last edited by Thrakum; 01-13-2011 at 09:55 AM..
Thrakum is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 10:52 AM   #11 (permalink)
Asshole
 
The_Jazz's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Chicago
Exactly how does one go about measuring cultural or governmental acheivements? You can't quantify them. Actually, I don't see how you can measure one against another without bias. If you want to get technical, most of Renaissance Europe was still operating as tribal societies - look at the Holy Roman Empire, the British Isles, feuding Italian states, etc. for prime examples. Homogenous Europe was still generations away in 1492. It's by pure accidents in geography that Europeans ended up in Europe first.

As I said, the Aztecs were conquored their tributory holdings, not by the Spanish. The Spanish provided the excuse and were able to take advantage of the subsequent confusion. And disease played such a huge role in the ability of indigenous peoples to fight back that to ignore it makes this an excercise in futility.

If not for the fall of a Chinese dynasty, they could have very easily crossed the Pacific to North America and colonized. It's only by the Chinese habit of eliminating the acheivements of preceeding dynasty (in this case the Treasure Fleet) that Mandarin isn't the Lingua Franca today. Most of the basic "inventions" in Europe were either stolen directly from the Chinese or reinvented later (the clock, gunpowder, paper, drilling, lightning rods, etc. etc.).

So again, I just don't see how we can have a discussion on the ethics of exploration when the premises you're using ignores basic historic facts.
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Last edited by The_Jazz; 01-13-2011 at 11:14 AM..
The_Jazz is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 10:58 AM   #12 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
most "arguments" that compare "civilizations" end up being simple restatements of the premise in a tautologically circular kind of way. and so it is not surprising that here the o.p. repeats itself in a tautological and circular way as well because of the way in which the premises are the same as the conclusions and they are said twice, once with the abstraction "utilitarian realism" which reduces to "crude utilitarianism" and again in the restatement of the abstraction in the form of some "demonstration" and so the circular tautology of premise being repeated in the definition/demonstration is repeated.

like this:

Quote:
Materialistic prosperity isn’t gained by sniffing flowers or watching the clouds.
is presu,ably a restatement of whatever "utilitarian realism" is this week.

i've noticed the tendency of graduate students looking to differentiate their version of the same thing from previous versions of the same thing to throw around the word "realism" lately. just saying.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Last edited by roachboy; 01-13-2011 at 11:00 AM..
roachboy is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 11:15 AM   #13 (permalink)
warrior bodhisattva
 
Baraka_Guru's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
I think much of this likely stems from postmodernism's (arguable) collapse, and the hangover we're experiencing from nearly 100 years of modernism and its dependent successors.

What we have is the apparent fall of irony and a craving to return/rebuild what the (post-)modernists spent decades destroying or otherwise mucking around with. So I think this is what leads us to—somewhat naturally perhaps—utilitarianism. This is what leads us to find use value in everything. This is what marginalizes anything that cannot be commodified or otherwise tied into our material reality.

What frustrates many is that a post-colonial, post-imperial world is essentially post-capitalist. We aren't quite there yet, but we see the capitalist system (which really was a driving force even in its proto-capitalist/post-mercantile forms since the Age of Enlightenment and subsequent industrialization) lurching and spiralling through crisis.

The world is finite and capitalism is running its course. This is not to say that capitalism as a mode of economics isn't going to be around; however, capitalism as a primary mode of governance, as a primary mode for building and managing societies, is, perhaps, in crisis. Growth for the sake of growth is a fool's game. Prosperity and growth aren't the same thing.

I suppose one measure of a culture is whether it's still around.
__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 01-13-2011 at 11:20 AM..
Baraka_Guru is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 12:52 PM   #14 (permalink)
Upright
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
Exactly how does one go about measuring cultural or governmental acheivements?
By making a historical overview of which ideals persist and which perish. By blade or by quill, just as in biological evolution there is a chain of thought going all the way back to pre-civilization. Some ideals spread and conquer the world while others never reach beyond their makers. This is the way I measure cultural acheivments. All your "what if"s are interesting thoughts, but they never happened, and behind them are reasons why. Utilitarian ethics is a way of explaining these "why"s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
Homogenous Europe was still generations away in 1492
You keep talking about that year... I hope you're not reading "pre-columbian" literally.

I think we're talking around each other. As I wrote in the OP, I'm not arguing that this is all written in stone, that the Europeans were destined to colonize the world or anything like that. However, certain cultural traits made the European want to explore the world in a way barely ever seen before. This combined with other factors led to the eventual rise of European colonialism/imperialism.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
the premises you're using ignores basic historic facts.
The premise is that the Europeans traveled across the sea and colonized america. It seems you are trying to make these "what if"s into reality. It's precisely because the Chinese dynasties tried to outpreform each other (by erasing history), unlike the Europeans who tried to do the same by simply being better. These are the cultural traits that utilitarian realism tries to pinpoint and draw conclusions from.

Hope I cleared this out a bit.



On to roachboy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
o.p. repeats itself in a tautological and circular way as well because of the way in which the premises are the same as the conclusions and they are said twice
Care to show me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
is presu,ably a restatement of whatever "utilitarian realism" is this week.
I would argue that, from a historical perspective, apathy/laziness/deference are not traits that lifts society, in any direction. Do you have a few examples maybe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
differentiate their version of the same thing from previous versions of the same thing to throw around the word "realism"
It's only to distinguish it from other forms of utilitarianism, as this is in the context of applied ethics, not in economics or philosophy or anything else. I guess since utilitarian means practical it's kinda superfluous to add realism on top. Utilitarian determinism sounds any better?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru View Post
I think much of this likely stems from postmodernism's (arguable) collapse, and the hangover we're experiencing from nearly 100 years of modernism and its dependent successors.

What we have is the apparent fall of irony and a craving to return/rebuild what the (post-)modernists spent decades destroying or otherwise mucking around with. So I think this is what leads us to—somewhat naturally perhaps—utilitarianism. This is what leads us to find use value in everything. This is what marginalizes anything that cannot be commodified or otherwise tied into our material reality.

What frustrates many is that a post-colonial, post-imperial world is essentially post-capitalist. We aren't quite there yet, but we see the capitalist system (which really was a driving force even in its proto-capitalist/post-mercantile forms since the Age of Enlightenment and subsequent industrialization) lurching and spiralling through crisis.

The world is finite and capitalism is running its course. This is not to say that capitalism as a mode of economics isn't going to be around; however, capitalism as a primary mode of governance, as a primary mode for building and managing societies, is, perhaps, in crisis. Growth for the sake of growth is a fool's game. Prosperity and growth aren't the same thing.

I suppose one measure of a culture is whether it's still around.
Couldn't agree more. However, capitalism in it's current form has not been around any longer than previous socio-economic doctrines. If we are indeed at roads end of liberal, global, free-trade capitalism, then both mercantilism and manorialism outlasted it by at least a century.

Last edited by Thrakum; 01-13-2011 at 12:56 PM..
Thrakum is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 01:06 PM   #15 (permalink)
Asshole
 
The_Jazz's Avatar
 
Administrator
Location: Chicago
Pre-Columbia is a very definite time period - it ended in November, 1492. You're the one who set the rules for the comparison, not me. If you're going to contrast two cultures, what's the point of selecting random moments? Or are you seriously trying to compare modern Western civilization and pre-Columbian cultures? That's completely pointless? We might as well add in 19th Century Russia, 5th Century Greece and the Mongols.

The Europeans weren't trying to "be better". They were trying to turn a profit by cutting out the Arabs in the spice trade with Eastern Asia. Your premise of Europeans as noble explorers making maps simply for the glory of it isn't true except in imaginations. Every single explorer had an economic agenda of one form or another. There was no pressure other than economic to set sail. That's why the Portuguese went south and the Spanish went west. And why the Portuguese and Dutch had colonies in Southern Asia - to facilitate trade.

I see only one cultural trait present - greed. And that was certainly not unique to Europe or even in short supply elsewhere in the world.
__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo
The_Jazz is offline  
Old 01-13-2011, 01:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
Upright
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
Pre-Columbia is a very definite time period - it ended in November, 1492.
"The pre-Columbian era incorporates all period subdivisions in the history and prehistory of the Americas before the appearance of significant European influences on the American continents, spanning the time of the original settlement in the Upper Paleolithic period to European colonization during the Early Modern period."

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
trying to compare modern Western civilization and pre-Columbian cultures?
No, trying to compare indigenous american cultures at the time of european colonialism in america.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
The Europeans weren't trying to "be better". They were trying to turn a profit by cutting out the Arabs in the spice trade with Eastern Asia.
"be better" might have been a bit sloppy. But, since you seem to be so into your semantics, they were trying to be better than the arabs were they not?
Oh and by the way, they weren't arabs, they were turks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Jazz View Post
I see only one cultural trait present - greed. And that was certainly not unique to Europe or even in short supply elsewhere in the world.
Well then you fall short, as something enabled european colonialism and disabled it to all others. Something isn't a good enough answer for most people. Utilitarian ethics tries to explain that something.
Thrakum is offline  
Old 01-23-2011, 07:00 PM   #17 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
To OP
I believe there is a flaw in your logic. You assume progression only comes on in an industrial way. What about spiritual? Renewable? Pollution? What if industry kills us as a race (nukes, global warming etc)? Then it in fact would be the opposite of progression.
Zeraph is offline  
 

Tags
argument, progression, prosperity

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 11:09 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360