Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community - View Single Post - Argument from progression and argument from prosperity

The_Jazz · 01-13-2011, 10:52 AM

Exactly how does one go about measuring cultural or governmental acheivements? You can't quantify them. Actually, I don't see how you can measure one against another without bias. If you want to get technical, most of Renaissance Europe was still operating as tribal societies - look at the Holy Roman Empire, the British Isles, feuding Italian states, etc. for prime examples. Homogenous Europe was still generations away in 1492. It's by pure accidents in geography that Europeans ended up in Europe first.

As I said, the Aztecs were conquored their tributory holdings, not by the Spanish. The Spanish provided the excuse and were able to take advantage of the subsequent confusion. And disease played such a huge role in the ability of indigenous peoples to fight back that to ignore it makes this an excercise in futility.

If not for the fall of a Chinese dynasty, they could have very easily crossed the Pacific to North America and colonized. It's only by the Chinese habit of eliminating the acheivements of preceeding dynasty (in this case the Treasure Fleet) that Mandarin isn't the Lingua Franca today. Most of the basic "inventions" in Europe were either stolen directly from the Chinese or reinvented later (the clock, gunpowder, paper, drilling, lightning rods, etc. etc.).

So again, I just don't see how we can have a discussion on the ethics of exploration when the premises you're using ignores basic historic facts.

01-13-2011, 10:52 AM	#11 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Exactly how does one go about measuring cultural or governmental acheivements? You can't quantify them. Actually, I don't see how you can measure one against another without bias. If you want to get technical, most of Renaissance Europe was still operating as tribal societies - look at the Holy Roman Empire, the British Isles, feuding Italian states, etc. for prime examples. Homogenous Europe was still generations away in 1492. It's by pure accidents in geography that Europeans ended up in Europe first. As I said, the Aztecs were conquored their tributory holdings, not by the Spanish. The Spanish provided the excuse and were able to take advantage of the subsequent confusion. And disease played such a huge role in the ability of indigenous peoples to fight back that to ignore it makes this an excercise in futility. If not for the fall of a Chinese dynasty, they could have very easily crossed the Pacific to North America and colonized. It's only by the Chinese habit of eliminating the acheivements of preceeding dynasty (in this case the Treasure Fleet) that Mandarin isn't the Lingua Franca today. Most of the basic "inventions" in Europe were either stolen directly from the Chinese or reinvented later (the clock, gunpowder, paper, drilling, lightning rods, etc. etc.). So again, I just don't see how we can have a discussion on the ethics of exploration when the premises you're using ignores basic historic facts. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo Last edited by The_Jazz; 01-13-2011 at 11:14 AM..