Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Philosophy


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 11-14-2010, 01:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Man's nature vs his evolution

Dlish's nonsense post inspired this idea ...

At first, I thought it would be fabulous to rid man of his hatred and lack of tolerance. But then I realized if man was full of love, patience and understanding, there'd be no appreciation for whatever existed that was good.

Do you think that's true? Is there really a possibility of a Utopia? Could man ever evolve to become a creature that could survive in actual harmony?

I've heard it argued that it's the nature of man. Conflict. Jealousy. Greed. Blah blah blah. But do we have the potential to move forward within, say, a million years if our planet still existed? Is it really our nature - something we can not fix? Is it genetic and if so, can generations begin to dilute it?

Is this why religion became such a strong force within society? Ensuring that man had hope to achieve this by dying?

I'm still a bit of an idealist and would like to think it could happen (before death). But as a realist, I think it's more than a thousand years away. I do believe that religion became the answer for the early politicians, as a morale-booster for those who had begun to lose hope, and also as a means of control.

What do you think?
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 11-29-2010, 02:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
Uh I disagree...plain and simple. Why would man not have appreciation for such things?
Zeraph is offline  
Old 11-29-2010, 05:30 PM   #3 (permalink)
immoral minority
 
ASU2003's Avatar
 
Location: Back in Ohio
It is possible, yet we are nowhere near it today.

The hippies in the 60s, the Native Americas (before there were too many of them), and other far northern people are pretty calm.

You need to have a certain upbringing, study psychology, and learn what is really important in life. Plus the environment around you has to be good.

Or you could kill 75% of the male babies born everyday and a large number that are alive now. If men are distracted by sex, they won't have time to fight.
ASU2003 is offline  
Old 11-30-2010, 08:01 AM   #4 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeraph View Post
Uh I disagree...plain and simple. Why would man not have appreciation for such things?
Disagree with what? That religion was created as a means to give people hope?
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 11-30-2010, 12:21 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
it's really difficult to say anything about "human nature" because everyone is born into a particular social situation; they're trained to be functional by internalizing aspects of that situation; their capacity to ask questions about human beings in general is entirely conditioned by a particular set of parameters that define being-human in a particular range of ways. human being in general is usually an abstraction based on (possibilities of /variations on) a particular construction of being human.

sometimes i think people invented god so they could pretend there was a some way to escape themselves. you know, if i am conditioned (this in the sense of being shaped in a particular way, not so much in the pavlov sense) then it'd be nice were there something unconditioned....i am specific, so maybe that something should be general....i am going to die, so maybe not going to die....on and on, a series of inversions, a way of daydreaming.

where i live the native american population was already largely dead from smallpox or hepatitis a few years before whitey arrived. whitey of course thought this providential. thank you jesus for the smallpox that took out all those natives. go figure.

the group that would hang out here in the summer spent alot of their time on an island i can see from my deck. they were apparently part of the algonquin somehow. from what i've read of algonquin mythology/history from 19th century maine mostly, they were folk who lived with a basically different sensory arrangement, one much more oriented to sound and other shifting things. they didn't think about geographies in terms of abstract shapes---more networks of sites.
the figures they thought about as parallel to god-types shifted shape all the time.

lately when i've daydreamed about human beings in general i've wondered about basically different sensory arrangements opening onto basically different worlds, like things are always multiple really but we see them through a general frame of reference that assumes reality (whatever that means) is single and that human beings are a type like rocks are or chaise lounges are, all variants on a single core.

maybe the problem is that we, collectively, have no way of thinking about multiplicity.

this started out being about one thing and ended up somewhere else i think.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 11-30-2010, 02:15 PM   #6 (permalink)
Banned
 
Zeraph's Avatar
 
Location: The Cosmos
Quote:
Originally Posted by jewels View Post
Disagree with what? That religion was created as a means to give people hope?
no idea. I think I got threads mixed up.

To the OP:
I think through severe genetic manipulation we could achieve such. I think its even possible within the next 100 years if politics don't get in the way.
Zeraph is offline  
Old 11-30-2010, 02:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Wes Mantooth's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
I don't know, I'm pretty skeptical that we'd ever be able to build some kind of utopia, we could certainly try and as we grow and learn as a species we might get close but it would never be perfect. There is always going to be some asshole looking to get ahead and do so by any means necessary, conflicts will always arise over resources, shelter, building families, ideologies or basic survival. It would only be exacerbated by living in a world were so many people aren't fighting to keep what they have, easy pickings for somebody who doesn't care about building a perfect world....or at least a perfect world for other people.

I think we just have to accept that the world is an ugly place and while we have done a lot to make it better with our modern societies and beliefs it would/will never be perfect.
__________________
“My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”
Wes Mantooth is offline  
Old 12-01-2010, 08:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
Pickles
 
ObieX's Avatar
 
Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)
Religion became such a strong force because of fear. It was the reason it was created. A way for people to explain things that they don't understand like death, those bright things in the sky like stars and lightning, and of course all those strange noises that come out of the darkness at night. Some of those things have been explained and became things like science and technology. The rest, like the fear of death, stay in religious hands for now. Humans like things to be explained, we're a very curious race.

I don't really see human nature and the evolution of man as separate things. They are both going along hand in hand. But fear and war and intolerance shouldn't be the only things considered human nature just because they are considered bad. All those good things like love and compassion are part of human nature too. Love and hate can bring people together and tear things apart equally. Both have lead us to where we are today and i think both are needed to get us where we need to go.

I would have to say that because we don't need to get to that "perfect Utopian future" we probably won't.
__________________
We Must Dissent.
ObieX is offline  
Old 12-01-2010, 09:00 PM   #9 (permalink)
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
 
Willravel's Avatar
 
Utopia's a nice goal to work towards.
Willravel is offline  
Old 12-01-2010, 09:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
has all her shots.
 
mixedmedia's Avatar
 
Location: Florida
right, just because Utopia isn't possible doesn't mean we should be complacent. doesn't mean we can't work toward it.

I look at it kind of the same way as I do global warming. We may not be able to reverse the effects of global warming, but that doesn't mean that taking the steps to eliminate it won't dramatically improve the lives of many generations to come.

I'm no Pollyanna. I have virtually no optimism that mankind will have a Utopian revolution in the next 1000 years. I don't know if it's genetic or environmental or something nasty in the water but mankind seems bent on self-destruction in one way or another. Whether it's through the horror of genocide or the more innocuous seeming slow death of self-inflicted heart disease and diabetes. We pollute our minds, our bodies, our environments and those of our neighbors whenever we get the chance. It's getting to the point where instead of wondering why it is this way and whether it can ever get better, I am concentrating on my forthcoming career and hoping to make just a few things better myself.

You know, I've been watching a lot of Star Trek NG the last few months and the question I keep asking Gene Roddenberry out loud here in my living room is 'how, Gene? it's great that you have conceived of this fabulous federation of planets with an earth that no longer has war or need and where everyone works for the betterment of society and technology because there is no longer a monetary system. But how did they get there?' Of course, Gene Roddenberry doesn't (didn't) know how, he's just dreaming like the rest of us, but it feels like a gigantic tease sometimes. And illuminates a little more the attraction of 'Trekkie-ness' and the desire to lose one's self in that world. Unfortunately I'm too old and cranky for that now, though. Sorry to digress.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce
mixedmedia is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 05:07 AM   #11 (permalink)
Sober
 
GreyWolf's Avatar
 
Location: Eastern Canada
ummmm.... What is Utopia? Your concept thereof and mine (and More's) may very well be extremely different. And that is a very good thing. And that is a major source of strife and conflict. I want my utopia, you want yours.

There are certain generic concepts (peace, happiness, harmony) that are definitely worth striving for always. But they are ideals; unattainable, and to a certain extent unrealistic. But desirable and worthwhile.

Can we eliminate hatred, jealousy, greed, and all things that make humans less than perfect? No. Should we try? Oh yes.

God/Nature/Evolution/Chance made us all different, and that is, indeed, a wonderful thing.
__________________
The secret to great marksmanship is deciding what the target was AFTER you've shot.
GreyWolf is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 05:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
Psycho
 
bagatelle's Avatar
 
Location: Europe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeraph View Post
no idea. I think I got threads mixed up.

To the OP:
I think through severe genetic manipulation we could achieve such. I think its even possible within the next 100 years if politics don't get in the way.
Genetic manipulation was in my mind before I got to your post. Not something like that done in such a short time than 100 years, but it could result in a new race being created eventually. Yet this race would still need co-operating with 'warrior' race to survive...

Somehow it sounds boring though to lose all those feelings that are considered negative - jealousy, hatred etc. So, in this utopia would it be just ok to share mates and spouses? Would there even have to be couples anymore?
bagatelle is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 06:00 AM   #13 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
utopia?
how is that different from conceptions of heaven--you know, like the talking heads once described it, as a place where nothing ever happens?
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 06:34 AM   #14 (permalink)
has all her shots.
 
mixedmedia's Avatar
 
Location: Florida
I really don't care about the word utopia. It's useful, a shortcut. It describes a vague idea of a time or place of consensus about the unworkability of disparity, poverty, endless violence. I mean, these things don't work. You don't have to be a dreamer to see that.
__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce
mixedmedia is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 08:28 AM   #15 (permalink)
still, wondering.
 
Ourcrazymodern?'s Avatar
 
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
I think as long as our species retains the ability to wonder about its nature, we'll probably continue evolving philosophically. It's unquestioning acceptance of "the way things are" that tends to blind us to possibilities & allows/requires us to continue hurting ourselves by hurting each other.
...as much as I treasure Star Trek's theme, I can't see there from here, either, mm.
__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT
Ourcrazymodern? is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 11:38 AM   #16 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Wes Mantooth's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
In order to achieve perfect harmony, peace, whatever wouldn't you pretty much have to eliminate most human traits including being able to think and reason? People would essentially have to turn a blind eye to any sort of inequity, pit falls or conflicts within the system and accept life exactly how it is regardless of any major flaws they see at the risk of creating faults, disagreements and fights. In other words everybody would have to be on the same page all the time, always be content with their lot in life and have no other desire/goals then to keep the perfect society afloat.

I'm not really sure that would be utopia (kind of sounding a little 1984) for me but then again as others have pointed out what "utopia" is for one person is completely different for somebody else. Again I think we as a society can work towards making things "better" but it will never be perfect.
__________________
“My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”
Wes Mantooth is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 11:48 AM   #17 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
this notion of "perfect" seems basically an excuse to do nothing.
the argument goes:
"no society/government/human anything is/can be/will ever be perfect so anything goes in the present"
as if some imaginary perfect, static Form the only alternative to the imploding empire we live in and it's preference for dissociation as over against thinking about how things might be organized and/or made differently so as to improve the lives of most of us. and since we can't get there, what difference does it make?

as if "imperfection" is one thing and everything is the same within that one thing.

unless it's the Other of the moment of course.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 12:17 PM   #18 (permalink)
Junkie
 
Wes Mantooth's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
I don't think its an excuse to nothing (at least it shouldn't be). I think most level headed people would agree we should always be working to fix the problems we do have as best we can but that same level headed person also realizes its never going to be perfect only, hopefully, better then before.

But I agree it seems some are put off by the notion that if it can't be perfect there is no point in trying at all, as though it has to be one or the other, failure or perfection. We could probably live in a pretty nice world if we put the work in but we can't be so silly as to assume we will ever eliminate all the problems we face as a people....and be okay acknowledging that.
__________________
“My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

Last edited by Wes Mantooth; 12-02-2010 at 12:19 PM..
Wes Mantooth is offline  
Old 12-02-2010, 12:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
it's strange because i was avoiding a power outage in a neighboring town with my brother last night and ended up in almost exactly this discussion, in which to be for what wikileaks is doing--for example--presupposes a critique of this order of things (duh)---which somehow got turned around to an assumption that i imagined there could be a perfect system (huh?)----which then got turned again to say this one's not so bad.

then i got thrown out of the united states again.
it happens every few weeks.
someone is always throwing me out.
i think it's a sport.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 12-03-2010, 07:03 AM   #20 (permalink)
Eponymous
 
jewels's Avatar
 
Location: Central Central Florida
Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy View Post
utopia?
how is that different from conceptions of heaven--you know, like the talking heads once described it, as a place where nothing ever happens?
This is what I was really thinking about. I keep thinking about the "without darkness there is no light" preachings and wonder if we'd have to find a way to reverse this propaganda to make a harmonious lifestyle work for human beings. I think we each create our own personal propaganda, but it's based upon generations of ideologies that become part of our nature after a few generations.

If that's so, RB, are you saying we'd be stuck in a state of ennui, or would we be content with our simple lives?
__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain
jewels is offline  
Old 12-03-2010, 07:57 AM   #21 (permalink)
 
roachboy's Avatar
 
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
i don't think there's a deus-ex-machina waiting in the wings to swoop in and straighten out the messed up story we made for ourselves for us. we have to do it. if we're not up for it, then probably yes, we'll slide into some boredom. like it seems alot of people live in now. can't get angry about what's happening around them because they feel like they've seen or heard everything and besides there's food to be had and beverages to be consumed and continuity to be maintained and who really wants to take on the responsibility of reorganizing how things work when continuity is just...so....there.

i think revolution is possible. nothing is given in advance. continuity is an illusion. discontinuity is an illusion. we make ourselves and we make the world---but from within parameters or constraints some of which we are aware of some of which we arent. but we, collective, do have that level of power if we choose to exercise it.


so i dunno. radically different options are possible. but it's hard to imagine people doing much to get there. particularly not in the depressing twilight of empire that we are living through. why bother reorganizing the social world when there's so much packaged fantasy that's right there?
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite
roachboy is offline  
Old 12-06-2010, 04:26 AM   #22 (permalink)
Insane
 
pai mei's Avatar
 
Something to think about for all who say "human nature is bad". We are under stress in this civilization. From that - all the bad stuff. Look at KKK, when they met some resistance. They ran. THEY DID NOT KNOW WHY THEY WERE DOING WHAT THEY WERE DOING. They had no personal reasons (each - his own reason). They - had the feeling something was wrong (and it was), formed a mob, and started killing blacks. Mindless civilized zombies.

Here:
Black Indians (Afro-Native Americans) - Americas - ColorQ's Color Club
Quote:
In 1770, a white observer reported that the Creeks allow slaves their freedom when they marry, which "is permitted and encouraged" and their children were considered free.6 Contemporary Euro-American records revealed a European fear for black/Indian mixing, for there were instances of Africans and Indians joining together in armed resistance against Europeans. A British officer had warned, "Their mixing is to be prevented as much as possible."
and:
Piracy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can see these 2 groups of free people - some by birth, others by choice - were not racist, and had no problems with - other's religion.

Growing through the asphalt: Prisoner Exchange
__________________
Blog
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

Last edited by pai mei; 12-06-2010 at 04:31 AM..
pai mei is offline  
Old 12-07-2010, 08:50 AM   #23 (permalink)
still, wondering.
 
Ourcrazymodern?'s Avatar
 
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
Thanks for the reading material. Do I take it correctly that you think there is hope?
__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT
Ourcrazymodern? is offline  
Old 12-09-2010, 04:15 PM   #24 (permalink)
Upright
 
how are mans nature and evolution not totally interrelated? Evolution is part of nature. If anything, 'man's nature' is to evolve.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
36thHero is offline  
Old 12-11-2010, 08:13 AM   #25 (permalink)
Insane
 
pai mei's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern? View Post
Thanks for the reading material. Do I take it correctly that you think there is hope?
Yes. Grass grows through the asphalt, on it, it does not care. Life cannot be stopped.
Here, the machine is beginning to fail:
Growing through the asphalt: England, 15 years old
__________________
Blog
One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"
pai mei is offline  
Old 12-28-2010, 05:16 AM   #26 (permalink)
Upright
 
I cannot ever see humanity. becoming completely Utopian. I can see a portion of the species doing so. Other portions no. In fact IMO it would be detrimental in the long run for the species to become passive.
kriswest is offline  
Old 12-28-2010, 03:55 PM   #27 (permalink)
still, wondering.
 
Ourcrazymodern?'s Avatar
 
Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge
It's good I agree
with so many of pai mei's
societal goals;

Here's not any disrespect
for technologies' provisioning
labor, thought, & capital:

It's too bad the last
accords means to the first one,
disrupting its next.

This species will never be passive.
__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT
Ourcrazymodern? is offline  
 

Tags
evolution, man, nature

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 05:13 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360