jnthnlllshprd

A genuine ending, a rebirth, or just another transition?

mykockle

I grew up in the Church of England, and while there have been moments in my life that I had hoped for an afterlife to be with those I've lost, my instincts, overwhelming need for proof and an inability to believe in an imaginary man in the sky leads me to believe death is the ultimate end.

jnthnlllshprd

That is a solid perspective.

I attempted suicide in 2008 via massive Motrin OD (50,000 mg, or 50 grams), and was put on life support for several days. My heart had stopped. I recall being carried out of the building, barely conscious, and feeling absolutely euphoric. Then came a long period of blackness, and the slow, callous regain of consciousness in the ICU with a respirator in my esophagus. I was in the Marine Corps at the time, but my reasons were not related to being in the Corps; it was rather a frustration with the tediousness of life.

If I can truthfully say that I've felt anything since that day, it's that I've felt dead. The fact that I emerged from this experience with absolutely no long-term damage has led me to believe that my current existence is a complete fabrication of a brief and meaningless life. Thus, I have no perspective of death. I think death is as insignificant as anything else we experience. I am a little curious, though, as to how people feel about death.

Vigilante

I feel completely different. I have experienced many spiritual events in my life, including and not limited to communing with those I love that have died. For me, I have zero doubt that there is something much greater after we die. I do not believe in a strict heaven or hell, but perhaps a fabrication of your own design, possibly leading to one final destination for all of us. Some will go straight there, some will take detours. Many will come back for another trip. What any of that existence is, however, is a complete mystery to me. I have had OBEs that I recall vividly and have seen some place/plane that I cannot explain. To try define it, now, would be pointless.

I don't know what our limits are, or what defines us. Maybe you will blink out. Maybe I won't. In that thought process, maybe one defines what happens in death based on beliefs here. I honestly have no idea. Anyone that says they do know for sure is probably wrong.

But that's just my beliefs.

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FuglyStick

The cessation of living.

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thirdsun

Could be all three...

An ending of your present material existence in bodily form in this universe...
A rebirth into a different bodily form or different material altogether...
A transition from one plane of existence to another...

wooÐs

Expect the worst and hope for the best.

Halx

Your brain stops working. Your blood stops pumping. You decompose.

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levite

I think death is the doorway from this life into other lives; from this plane of existence into others. I believe in a cycle of rebirth, and an ultimate afterlife, wherein we are permitted to sometimes "rest" outside this universe in between our lives, sometimes to help select where we go next, sometimes for other reasons, and that after we have learned all we can-- we remember eveything from all our lives while we are "in-between,"-- and after we have taught to the limit we feel capable of, we are permitted to enter the World To Come. But without the death of the body, we would be trapped forever: it is death that ultimately sets us free, allows us to play the greater game of life.

That's what I think.

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Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Lasereth

You stop living. You stop knowing that you exist, have ever existed, or stopped existing. It's actually an extremely hard concept to grasp -- that we will not exist, but not only that; our minds will simply evaporate like they never happened.

There is nothing after we die. I hate it but it's what I know.

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sonkop

the thing about death is that we don't know.
we speculate, we "feel," we hope, we try to apply science to it.
it's a question where the answer dissapears allong with the ones that discover it (or do they actually find out?)

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"it never got weird enough for me" hunter s thompson

"If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."
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The_Jazz

Let's figure it out together. You first.

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Baraka_Guru

This isn't true. Shakespeare's mind is still rather lively and perpetual to this day, and it's now been 393 years since it "died."

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Lasereth

Do you really want me to take this seriously???

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

Baraka_Guru

I don't care whether you do.

To think Shakespeare's mind is as though it never happened as a result of his death is a falsehood.

To think that there has been nothing of Shakespeare after 1616 is as well.

Maybe you missed my point: Death may mean an end to your physical existence, the termination of your consciousness. But this doesn't mean the manifestations of your existence—your impact—dies along with it.

You make it sound as though we all die quietly alone while no one takes notice or even realizes we existed in the first place.

Am I wrong?

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

biznatch

The only form of life I've seen so far is cell-based. Organisms that are cells or that are made of them.
Life after death would require a different type of life and consciousness. If there is such a thing as consciousness without a body, that might be what's after death.
I truly don't know what happens after death.
I'm inclined to think that everything stops, your thoughts, your awareness of your own existence, etc. "Je meurs donc je cesse de penser?" (I die therefore I cease to think?)
On one hand, it's scary. I'd like to think my views/thoughts, perspectives on the world are unique, and that the only thing I truly own (my consciousness) can continue once by body stops living.

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Daniel_

Death is the end.

Chemical processes cease, electrical activity ends, you go mushy and smell.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

biznatch

There's a difference between Shakespeare's brain and Shakespeare's brainchild.
His mind is definitely lost forever. What he wrote is merely something tailored to entertain the masses. Granted, the fact that his pieces were brilliant shows that he had a great mind, but the only person who had those great thoughts, and really understood where his work comes from is dead.
His mind is no longer lively. The fact that his work is still relevant to this day is because human nature changes little, and their interpersonal relationships still take place in the same way, for the most part.

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Baraka_Guru

Shakespeare's works are like an elaborate set of imprints of his mind and how it worked. To this day we still pour a great amount of time and energy into reflecting on and arguing about what he believed, commented on, and may have thought otherwise. We are enraptured by his mode of presenting this to us.

In many ways, we try to pick up what we have and actively try to "get into his mind." If it were obliterated upon his death....why would we even attempt this?

This goes against what Lasereth said about our minds simply vanishing upon death as though they never were. The works of Shakespeare act as a testament to the fact that we often exist in some form beyond the grave. Some of these forms are more permanent than others, but they are there nonetheless. I'm not saying that there is any actual spiritual or supernatural existence of the man, but Shakespeare is not dead in the way Lasereth describes. Not by a long shot.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

SecretMethod70

As much as I'd like an afterlife, I'm with Halx

I think Baraka_Guru is talking about death on an entirely different level though, and on that level I agree with him as well.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Lasereth

@Baraka: You misunderstood me. The Shakespeare example has nothing to do with the question asked in the OP. What I mean is that once you die, your consciousness and self are gone like they never happened. You don't remember not existing, you won't experience anything after you existed, your existence itself from your point of view is totally erased when you die. There is no "well there goes my body, what now?"

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"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

SSJTWIZTA

i think its the end. i hate myself for thinking like that.

baraka, you know damn well what he meant. :P

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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

Baraka_Guru

Lasereth: fair enough. But I see the OP as being quite open to interpretation in its wording—that, and this is posted in philosophy.

But as for this:
From the dying's own perspective this might be true. (But will we ever know?) However, the effect of that death in what remains outside of the dying is what I'm more interested in. For the record, I voted "Other." I believe there is a transition of some remnants of the dead onto the living; much of this is done even while the dead was alive.

Otherwise we would not mourn the loss of loved ones.

The name of this thread is "Death: What is it?" ...not.... "Dying: What happens to you?"

Again...this is posted Tilted Philosophy, so I take some liberties in how I approach this question. So sue me.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Halx

Our "afterlife" is determined by the mark we leave on this world and how we are remembered after it. However, I don't think it has much to do with death. Our consciousness ceases, but our ideas will live on as long as people remember them.

In which case, I want you guys to remember the TFP when I'm dead.

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SSJTWIZTA

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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

ametc

I've almost died twice and actually died once. It was all the same.

There really is a tunnel and a light at the end of it... it feels so airy and warm, too.

For me, I kinda knew where I was going, but then again I didn't. It felt very familiar, but I didn't know why.

I wasn't moving towards the light, nor was I moving away from the light. I was staying perfectly still. And this makes me wonder if that was because I tried to kill myself and suicide causes you to return back to Earth immediately after death. That would make sense.

When I worked in a convalescent home, many of my patients died. They all seemed peaceful during their death.


One thing I know now about death is it's very, very peaceful and feels pretty nice. I didn't care about whether or not my family and friends cared about me. I didn't care about all the Earthly things. I didn't care about eating.. about sex... about having fun.. nor did I worry about dying. I didn't have to.

No drugs can ever make me feel as good as death can. God, that sounds emo. :P But, it's just... it's a very nice experience. haha

sonkop

i consider myself lucky that i've never felt depressed enough to consider suicide as a solution.
i'm actually quite interested in the state of mind that prefers death over life.
i read a very short article on emo culture and ametc just prompted me to go and find some more lit on it.

i'm one of those that will drink from the goblet of imortality if someone mails it to me.

__________________
"it never got weird enough for me" hunter s thompson

"If you don't know where you are going, any road will take you there."
Lewis Carrol

SSJTWIZTA

even if you go like that reporter that got beheaded in the middle east? that looked rather painful and unpleasant to me.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

DerekP

I voted other.

I don't believe that we survive intact through death. Physically, the body becomes a corpse and returns to the cycle of the earth, if it is allowed. For this reason, I'm against putting my body in a box inside a vault inside a concrete slab. I want to feed some grass and trees when I die dammit. I also believe there is some energy associated with the body, but in my mind it is closer to a magnetic field than what people would call a soul. This dissipates and finds its way into the energy of the earth. These bits, both matter and energy, go on to become parts of other things.

Do they retain anything more than their molecular structures and waveforms? who knows.

ametc

Well.. it hurts at first. I slit my wrist pretty bad and it hurt like a mother, but the pain quickly subsided and I forgot about it completely. I imagine a more gruesome death wouldn't take away from the peaceful contentment at the end in any way at all.

SSJTWIZTA

ah, true.

__________________
First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

UnclearContent

We cannot separate what we have created from what we are/were/will be.

Our bodies "die" in that the cells no longer work together to form the meaningful unit of "me."

The cells one by one will die and be consumed by another organism.

The steps we have taken, the thoughts we have spread out into the world, these ripples all continue even when the heart stops beating. You cannot undo what you've done.

The matter which made our bodies is consumed and used by other organisms. The matter that made us was comprised of organisms consumed before.

Life after death? Death is only the end of ego. Everything else keeps going.

Vigilante

I've never experienced clinical death, but I know exactly what you mean, by other means. No weed or sex or any adrenalin rush has ever come close to dropping every fear, every worry, every concern. It's much more than that. Not euphoria, not a heightening of anything, just a new level of reality that causes this to be an afterthought. Everything here is an afterthought. It's even beyond happy, because a state of "peaceful contentment" is seemingly what the universe is made of, not an experience. All matter glows with it. I know no other way to put it. I still do that experience no justice in explanation.

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-Winston Churchill

Vigilante

I had more to add, but I already flopped in bed and didn't have the will to get back up just to say it. Naturally, I forgot the profound words I put together last night.

Having an experience like this is saddening. You see, once you see this other side, as it were, this place becomes so insignificant that it's hard to describe. In essence, I walk around with one foot in the door to another realm. Now that doesn't mean suicidal, it just means that you learn a new kind of patience. I have a long life in front of me, with a high chance of pain in later years because of my spine. Yet having seen something greater, I have had to learn that it may take 40 years to get there. For now I have to ride the wave, live my life, embrace ideals that I feel best accepting, and not think about what awaits with anticipation. For a while it was difficult thinking of even being a part of society, but some events happened that leveled me emotionally and made me realize that I am here whether I want to be, or not. Basically a cosmic bucket of ice water in the face.

I know this may seem odd to some and this is fairly personal for me, but it is what it is. It's been my experience.

edit: Damn, meant for this to add to the previous post. Guess it had been too long.

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We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle.
-Winston Churchill

Cervantes

All good things have a beginning and an end. Death the end of life.

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jinx1953

Death is the opposite of life. So then death is nonexistence.

Baraka_Guru

So is the nonliving is nonexistent?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Derwood

I shouldn't have opened this thread. I hate this subject so much

tisonlyi

So, if you're looking at a human being as an isolated entity (perhaps soul) within a reality defined solely by that individuality and no higher context, then death as we commonly talk about it (the irrevocable shut down of a prescribed set of neurological functions) really does seem like 'The End'. From my point of view in this frame of reference, i think you have to go with 'Unknown'... There's no-one made it back after a substantial period of 'death'.

Another sort of framework for defining your humanity, your mind or soul perhaps, could be as some sort of agent which acts as a node within a knowledge-and-understanding-seeking network. This 'agent' collects and imperfectly passes on some of the information that it is exposed to at the very least and can 'consciously' or 'subconsciously' (whatever those terms might mean in this context - and i really want to go Germanic and use 'mindfully' or 'unmindfully' but, i suppose that's a bit too out of the norm for this sort of stuff) act upon and transform the information at its disposal and pass this 'new' information on to other members of the network.

I think this might be something towards what Baraka_Guru (to my eternal shame, I only recently realised the reference in your/his name... ) was referring to with regard to Mr Shakespeare or Newton, Hunter S Thompson? Something towards a memetic/pragmatic network of culture?

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"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

Willravel

Death is the end of biological functions.