Racism today vs racism of the past. - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Manic_Skafe · 06-27-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xerxys

Manic, black minorities, meaning not ALL black people. Not all of them are racist against each other. The few (but significant in number non the less) are the minorities within the black people, now I think your just trying hard to be dense.

Black minorities? Could you think of a more awkward way to put it?

And I'm still not entirely convinced as to what the hell you're talking about but I am becoming increasingly convinced that whatever your point is, it really isn't worth understanding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manic_Skafe

Also, while you certainly do have a right to your opinions, you should know that very little of what you've posted in either of these threads is based upon fact - just because you feel things are equal doesn't make them so, etc. - this isn't a classroom but you should at the very least have some idea as to what you're talking about before you spout off.

I'm done.

Shauk · 10-13-2009, 10:31 AM

Ok so it's been four months...
due to a recent article I decided to change my stance on not posting on this thread anymore to try and solidify my connection between "hip hop culture" and "black culture" when posting a question about "truthful negatives"

I kinda feel like this article does a better job of explaining my point:

BBC NEWS | UK | Has hip-hop grown up?

the line in my OP about "Truthful Negatives" of hip hop culture, wasn't acceptable to many of you, but let me quote the part in the article.

Quote:

"Now that tourists visit inner city ghettos and Ivy-league students study street culture, what does Joe Conzo think of hip-hop's evolution?

"There are lots of parts of the culture I don't agree with," he says, citing lyrics and videos that promote violence and degrade women. "

a 47 year old "resident" and self proclaimed representation of hip hop says this. Not some white dude named Shauk on some internet forum known as TFP.

ok so I know he can't be the only one who disagrees with it, I mean I don't like it either, I guess the question is if people recognize it reflects poorly on hip-hop, and by association, black culture, why is it an acceptable association by the majority to the point that it's one of the most popular forms of music in the mainstream if it's a false representation?

---------- Post added at 11:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I'm not sure what you expected. You are using a form of music to illustrate what is bad about black culture, even saying this:
"willful deviation from the norm for the sake of being a rebel"
what the fuck is that supposed to mean? Willful deviation from the norm and being rebellious is, what, bad? Tell that to the guys who wrote, 'Smack My Bitch Up.' A song that I happen to enjoy because I realize that art, especially in the form of music, is not usually a mandate for living.

Copy paste inc

The phrase "Change My Pitch Up / Smack My Bitch Up" is not a lyric, it's a sample, taken from an old hip hop track called "Give The Drummer Some" by Ultramagnetic MCs. The vocalist is Kool Keith, aka Dr .Octagon. "Smack My Bitch Up" is instrumental apart from the use of this phrase.

to give credit where credit is due. *shrug*

mixedmedia · 10-13-2009, 10:37 AM

There are many parts of white culture I don't agree with. Facets that sometimes include violence and sexism. But you don't hear anyone decrying these things on the basis that are defining white people. That's the difference.
When you make the jump from I don't like some forms of hip-hop ---> I don't like black culture. You're being obtuse. But it happens all the time. Lots of folks feel that way. Doesn't make it apt or reliable, though.

---------- Post added at 02:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:35 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

Copy paste inc

The phrase "Change My Pitch Up / Smack My Bitch Up" is not a lyric, it's a sample, taken from an old hip hop track called "Give The Drummer Some" by Ultramagnetic MCs. The vocalist is Kool Keith, aka Dr .Octagon. "Smack My Bitch Up" is instrumental apart from the use of this phrase.

to give credit where credit is due. *shrug*

ok, cool, doesn't make my point irrelevant.

Manic_Skafe · 10-13-2009, 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

ok so I know he can't be the only one who disagrees with it, I mean I don't like it either,I guess the question is if people recognize it reflects poorly on hip-hop, and by association, black culture, why is it an acceptable association by the majority to the point that it's one of the most popular forms of music in the mainstream if it's a false representation?[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

What I can't seem to understand (and would imagine is the source of much of the ire that your argument has generated) is why you're so convinced that hip-hop culture is indicative of black culture. Your premise is murky, poorly fleshed out and totally unsubstantiated. What are you saying?

As for the article you've linked and quoted, blah.

Quote:

"There are lots of parts of the culture I don't agree with," he says, citing lyrics and videos that promote violence and degrade women.

But he is quick to point out that this image is put forward by certain artists and is not a fair reflection on the modern state of the culture.

Confirmation bias, much?

What's your point? What are you saying?

I suppose I should also note that I, Manic_Skafe am in no way calling you a racist...yet.

Shauk · 10-13-2009, 01:22 PM

I'm convinced that it's indicative based on the fact that if you listen to a white rapper, he'll tell you of his struggles to be accepted as an artist in the genre simply because he's a white man in a culture that a black man would claim as his own. Because of the prevalence of the "N word" in the lyrics of many tracks, be it used with vulgar intent or as a show of solidarity, it ultimately is a point of contention. Some would claim the word, some would banish it's use. In either camp, despite the superlative, it still has something to do with black culture.

Despite my "poor" fleshing out of the connection, I'm sure you could connect the dots on your own if you tried.

I'm just saying it's a goddamn shame, it's sad, that a racist person today, in this day and age, can pick a few gansta rap tracks, a few episodes of COPS, and build himself a collection of material generated by black culture to help fuel his irrational hatred of the race.

Any firefighter will tell you, the best way to put out the fires are to deprive it of fuel, cut off it's source of life. oxygen or raw material to burn. Yet the time line is rife with fuel to draw that connection if you try. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, just that it exists.

in the early days, racists were just stupid and had no material to draw upon to paint a real bad example of the race, now they're just easily confused with white people who disagree misogynistic, violent music and it's prominence in black culture. They could be confused with an actual racist.

Obviously proven by the fact that you're "in no way calling me a racist... yet"

Manic_Skafe · 10-13-2009, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

I'm convinced that it's indicative based on the fact that if you listen to a white rapper, he'll tell you of his struggles to be accepted as an artist in the genre simply because he's a white man in a culture that a black man would claim as his own. Because of the prevalence of the "N word" in the lyrics of many tracks, be it used with vulgar intent or as a show of solidarity, it ultimately is a point of contention. Some would claim the word, some would banish it's use. In either camp, despite the superlative, it still has something to do with black culture.

Having read this paragraph a few times I can only suggest, like others in this thread already have, that you invest more time in educating yourself about rap music before you spout off about it. Rap music is such a poor example to draw parallels from because there are so many different forms of it and much of it varies greatly in subject matter.

You talk about the prevalence of the word nigger and about white rappers working through racial bias but all that falls under your scope and is assumed to constitute the whole is pop music that's styled after rap music. I wrote of confirmation bias earlier because there's much more to all of this than you obviously care to consider and while that's perfectly acceptable in your own life, it doesn't leave you much ground to argue from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

Despite my "poor" fleshing out of the connection, I'm sure you could connect the dots on your own if you tried.

No such connection exists beyond your flawed reasoning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

I'm just saying it's a goddamn shame, it's sad, that a racist person today, in this day and age, can pick a few gansta rap tracks, a few episodes of COPS, and build himself a collection of material generated by black culture to help fuel his irrational hatred of the race.

As someone who creates music, I can't help but to find it strange that you can so naively believe that the images that come your way of whatever gangster rap is are not only tweaked and manipulated for the sake of selling units but wholly accurate and indicative of the communities from which these artists came.

Should we also believe to depictions of Italians in gangster movies to be accurate? Consider how many hands those images go through and how often they're manipulated and polished before they're pushed out for mass consumption. Get real.

Also, Cops creates a glaringly inaccurate and biased portrait of the poor more so than it does of any race in particular. One need not guess at the incomes and education levels of the various races of people who are exploited on that show.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

Any firefighter will tell you, the best way to put out the fires are to deprive it of fuel, cut off it's source of life. oxygen or raw material to burn. Yet the time line is rife with fuel to draw that connection if you try. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, just that it exists.

in the early days, racists were just stupid and had no material to draw upon to paint a real bad example of the race, now they're just easily confused with white people who disagree misogynistic, violent music and it's prominence in black culture. They could be confused with an actual racist.

Wait, so that's your premise? We should do something about media depictions of blacks in rap music because those depictions actually give racists something to stand upon? Early day racists weren't stupid as they had plenty of so-called expert advice and scientific evidence to base their assertions about race from. You can't be serious.

And even then, should be really be so concerned with winning over racists from their misconceptions - regardless of what informs then? Perhaps someone should also come and convince me that the Jonas brothers aren't gay.

Also, you might want to take into account which demographics these images are marketed to and which groups create the market for them. You'd probably be surprised.

Shauk · 10-13-2009, 02:35 PM

I've stepped out of the music "scene" for now. I disown any association to being a member of the musical community at this point aside from my own consumer interests. I no longer mix or produce simply because the politics annoy me and serve as hoops of control between me and my personal expression on that medium. Anything done now is pretty much private work.

That aside, lets address the article then, how has the culture matured in 30 years? Do you think that the culture has had any influence on changing how black America is perceived? If it's positive or negative, is that a connection or a coincidence?

as for pop being a derivative of rap music. The similarity goes only so far as the backing audio. The lyrics in "pop" are often intentionally marketable towards all ages, containing little to no vulgarity.

However, you do raise the interesting point that on the flip side, it could be considered "The good twin" the bubblegum and pink bunnies version derivative. So all white people are as gay as the Jonas Brothers and vapid as every female ex mouseketeer turned pop singer, if we were to exercise reverse stereotyping/racism based on a race/genre connection.

boink · 10-13-2009, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Any firefighter will tell you, the best way to put out the fires are to deprive it of fuel, cut off it's source of life. oxygen or raw material to burn. Yet the time line is rife with fuel to draw that connection if you try. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, just that it exists.

this could be applied to pretty much anything and the answer is censorship...not such a good thing in my opinion.

frankly I really like gutter rap, I don't let it paint a picture of the whole of black society. funny though I do see things like "Mad Men" or other media showing white men in white collars raping the middle and lower class for all it's worth, and I believe it. makes me ashamed to be white.

dippin · 10-13-2009, 10:12 PM

I am having a hard time understanding your point here.

Is your point that, because racists will grab anything a black person does wrong and use it to foster racism, that all blacks have to live a life that is beyond reproach, lest they substantiate claims that racists make?

Because that is silly, really. It is basically justifying racism. "If they weren't like the stereotype, ALL of them would avoid the stereotype." It is almost circular.

As is discussing "the culture," or "the black culture" based on whatever stereotypes available in the media. "Let's discuss how the way we stereotype blacks is exactly like our stereotype of blacks."

pinal · 03-14-2011, 12:56 AM

Yes, it has been understood properly all over. Now everyone knows how much they can contribute to each field.

WhoaitsZ · 03-18-2011, 11:35 AM

Wow Shauk. When you make a post and your main point is about one topic and when someone reacts to said topic you seem to freak out. don't pick an ideal topic if you're ignorant of it. common sense.

As for hip hop being good or bad deserves a facepalm from god. most death metal listeners are white. does this mean the majority of whites live the lifestyle of death metal? that's just fucking dumb and undefendable (I just made a new word i think). sorry, but it is.

As for racism now vs then... it is better now. I live in Mississippi... and I have seen far less blatant racists bullshit in the last ten years or so.

our problem isn't so much that we think white vs black these days so much as we see what tv stations tell us and we mimic them like my parrot.

Hip hop has countless variants. Like all music, pop sucks and is mainstream. To say that hip hop is about guns or bitches is just not smart. I do understand your point of view. but now you have options outside of your POV and you can research it and learn more.

when i hire an aide i tell them there are two non-negotiable rules.

1) be easy and respectful. I show all people kindness until they prove themselves unworthy.
2) if you say 'nigger' or 'wet back' or any other slang and/or bash people due to sexual orientation GTFO.

Racism is a money maker. Racism is alive and well for all colors. I do think that the majority of it is dying out as well as to be expected. Hate never dies. old people, however, do and we must continue to educate young people to break the chains of ignorance.

And let me say this. A good friend of mine sometimes goes in racist tangents and we argue. One thing he always did was mention a very obvious black name (Shanequa) and her babies we support. my wife taught at several schools here and guess what.... the number of white pregnancies is far higher!

like cyn's sig. you arevan asshole or you are not. there's little middle ground.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-18-2011, 12:18 PM

Shauk's thread got jacked @ post two...

Racism will likely always be around because this species has a seemingly inherent need to categorize everything. No doubt this used to have survival value.

I believe racism is declining based on what I've observed of my kids & their friends. TV since All In The Family has been, in my opinion, doing a good job of showing IJUHP.

ralphie250 · 04-09-2011, 05:08 AM

seems to me that recisim was more known throughout the world\country in the 50s and 60s. everyone knew who was a racist. in todays world it seems like recisim is more in the "closet" than it was 60 years ago.

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-09-2011, 06:24 AM

My babies aren't. You could be right, ralphie250; I've heard disturbing things out of people as recently as last Tuesday, but I think the closet is where racism belongs, if anywhere.

ralphie250 · 04-09-2011, 07:38 AM

my daughter aint either, and i wont raise her to be one either.

why would they put that on newsweek???

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-09-2011, 07:57 AM

I've no idea. Probably as a buzzword to sell magazines. The editors no doubt have issues they can't get rid of, just like the rest of us. I don't want to jack this thread, but the species has worse problems than racism.

filtherton · 04-09-2011, 08:09 AM

My daughter sometimes comes home from preschool with weird things to say about chinese folks. It's kind of absurd, but now that I think of it, chinese kids are a woefully underrepresented demographic at her preschool.

I think that racism will end when race reaches the "entropic death" phase of existence. I'm sure we'll always have tribalism to fall back on.

EventHorizon · 04-09-2011, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

My question is, is racism today as prejudiced as it was in the 50's now that, given the free leash of american citizenship and exposure in the media, we've seen the result of the popular culture of black America?

i think there's alot more to racism than just black people. i grew up in the midwest (some would argue the 'cowboy west') and i went to a middle school in a shitty part of town where Native Americans outnumbered any other ethnic group. for the longest time i hated them because a friend of mine got jumped on our way back from school (we both ran, he was fat and got caught, and i was too skinny to hold my own). i dont think racism where i'm from has changed all that much from the 1950s, but i guess racism has alot to do with geography too.

well theres a long (non)answer to your question

tl;dr,
i dont think racism is limited to black people so its hard to answer the question

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoaitsZ

undefendable (I just made a new word i think).

call me a grammar nazi, but i think the word you're looking for is 'indefensible'

WhoaitsZ · 04-11-2011, 02:53 PM

Wow that's one of the stupidest magazine covers I have ever seen.

Racism is broad with color skin and has sank into ethnic and religious choices.

To me a classic example of a facepalm to god is black people persecuting gays. Really? A lot of people, including me, believe you are equal with me and then you say gays are not equal? Really?

Racism will never die. Its a lot better than it use to be and its more closeted now but it exists. Whites, blacks, Asians, Europeans, whatever. Racism exists.

Shauk · 04-11-2011, 06:02 PM

Man this thread is still kickin?

I just wanted to restate, just the point I was trying to make in the initial post was the existence of "reference material" to form biases, fair or unfair as they may be in the minds of people participating in this thread. I'm just saying things like how certain races are portrayed in the media, music, movies, whatever, didn't exist in the 50's like it does now. Back then it was just fear of the uncertain, now it's just a media frenzy of being scared because the TV told you so.

much like the news making you think that the world is so unsafe that if you go outside and make friends with the neighbor you might get shot & robbed, if you walk alone at night, that you'll get raped, that if you leave your car unlocked that it will get stolen, etc..

I hope people are clear on that by now. lol

WhoaitsZ · 04-11-2011, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shauk

Man this thread is still kickin?

I just wanted to restate, just the point I was trying to make in the initial post was the existence of "reference material" to form biases, fair or unfair as they may be in the minds of people participating in this thread. I'm just saying things like how certain races are portrayed in the media, music, movies, whatever, didn't exist in the 50's like it does now. Back then it was just fear of the uncertain, now it's just a media frenzy of being scared because the TV told you so.

much like the news making you think that the world is so unsafe that if you go outside and make friends with the neighbor you might get shot & robbed, if you walk alone at night, that you'll get raped, that if you leave your car unlocked that it will get stolen, etc..

I hope people are clear on that by now. lol

in all honesty I think we all blew what you said out of proportion. and yes, I agree.

The media has us all by the nads... and we follow like retards.

10-13-2009, 01:22 PM	#45 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	I'm convinced that it's indicative based on the fact that if you listen to a white rapper, he'll tell you of his struggles to be accepted as an artist in the genre simply because he's a white man in a culture that a black man would claim as his own. Because of the prevalence of the "N word" in the lyrics of many tracks, be it used with vulgar intent or as a show of solidarity, it ultimately is a point of contention. Some would claim the word, some would banish it's use. In either camp, despite the superlative, it still has something to do with black culture. Despite my "poor" fleshing out of the connection, I'm sure you could connect the dots on your own if you tried. I'm just saying it's a goddamn shame, it's sad, that a racist person today, in this day and age, can pick a few gansta rap tracks, a few episodes of COPS, and build himself a collection of material generated by black culture to help fuel his irrational hatred of the race. Any firefighter will tell you, the best way to put out the fires are to deprive it of fuel, cut off it's source of life. oxygen or raw material to burn. Yet the time line is rife with fuel to draw that connection if you try. I'm not saying it's the right thing to do, just that it exists. in the early days, racists were just stupid and had no material to draw upon to paint a real bad example of the race, now they're just easily confused with white people who disagree misogynistic, violent music and it's prominence in black culture. They could be confused with an actual racist. Obviously proven by the fact that you're "in no way calling me a racist... yet" Last edited by Shauk; 10-13-2009 at 01:25 PM..

03-18-2011, 12:18 PM	#52 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Shauk's thread got jacked @ post two... Racism will likely always be around because this species has a seemingly inherent need to categorize everything. No doubt this used to have survival value. I believe racism is declining based on what I've observed of my kids & their friends. TV since All In The Family has been, in my opinion, doing a good job of showing IJUHP. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

04-09-2011, 06:24 AM	#54 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	My babies aren't. You could be right, ralphie250; I've heard disturbing things out of people as recently as last Tuesday, but I think the closet is where racism belongs, if anywhere. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

04-09-2011, 07:57 AM	#56 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I've no idea. Probably as a buzzword to sell magazines. The editors no doubt have issues they can't get rid of, just like the rest of us. I don't want to jack this thread, but the species has worse problems than racism. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

10-13-2009, 02:35 PM	#47 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	I've stepped out of the music "scene" for now. I disown any association to being a member of the musical community at this point aside from my own consumer interests. I no longer mix or produce simply because the politics annoy me and serve as hoops of control between me and my personal expression on that medium. Anything done now is pretty much private work. That aside, lets address the article then, how has the culture matured in 30 years? Do you think that the culture has had any influence on changing how black America is perceived? If it's positive or negative, is that a connection or a coincidence? as for pop being a derivative of rap music. The similarity goes only so far as the backing audio. The lyrics in "pop" are often intentionally marketable towards all ages, containing little to no vulgarity. However, you do raise the interesting point that on the flip side, it could be considered "The good twin" the bubblegum and pink bunnies version derivative. So all white people are as gay as the Jonas Brothers and vapid as every female ex mouseketeer turned pop singer, if we were to exercise reverse stereotyping/racism based on a race/genre connection.

10-13-2009, 10:12 PM	#49 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	I am having a hard time understanding your point here. Is your point that, because racists will grab anything a black person does wrong and use it to foster racism, that all blacks have to live a life that is beyond reproach, lest they substantiate claims that racists make? Because that is silly, really. It is basically justifying racism. "If they weren't like the stereotype, ALL of them would avoid the stereotype." It is almost circular. As is discussing "the culture," or "the black culture" based on whatever stereotypes available in the media. "Let's discuss how the way we stereotype blacks is exactly like our stereotype of blacks."

03-14-2011, 12:56 AM	#50 (permalink)
pinal Banned	Yes, it has been understood properly all over. Now everyone knows how much they can contribute to each field.

03-18-2011, 11:35 AM	#51 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	Wow Shauk. When you make a post and your main point is about one topic and when someone reacts to said topic you seem to freak out. don't pick an ideal topic if you're ignorant of it. common sense. As for hip hop being good or bad deserves a facepalm from god. most death metal listeners are white. does this mean the majority of whites live the lifestyle of death metal? that's just fucking dumb and undefendable (I just made a new word i think). sorry, but it is. As for racism now vs then... it is better now. I live in Mississippi... and I have seen far less blatant racists bullshit in the last ten years or so. our problem isn't so much that we think white vs black these days so much as we see what tv stations tell us and we mimic them like my parrot. Hip hop has countless variants. Like all music, pop sucks and is mainstream. To say that hip hop is about guns or bitches is just not smart. I do understand your point of view. but now you have options outside of your POV and you can research it and learn more. when i hire an aide i tell them there are two non-negotiable rules. 1) be easy and respectful. I show all people kindness until they prove themselves unworthy. 2) if you say 'nigger' or 'wet back' or any other slang and/or bash people due to sexual orientation GTFO. Racism is a money maker. Racism is alive and well for all colors. I do think that the majority of it is dying out as well as to be expected. Hate never dies. old people, however, do and we must continue to educate young people to break the chains of ignorance. And let me say this. A good friend of mine sometimes goes in racist tangents and we argue. One thing he always did was mention a very obvious black name (Shanequa) and her babies we support. my wife taught at several schools here and guess what.... the number of white pregnancies is far higher! like cyn's sig. you arevan asshole or you are not. there's little middle ground.

04-09-2011, 08:09 AM	#57 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	My daughter sometimes comes home from preschool with weird things to say about chinese folks. It's kind of absurd, but now that I think of it, chinese kids are a woefully underrepresented demographic at her preschool. I think that racism will end when race reaches the "entropic death" phase of existence. I'm sure we'll always have tribalism to fall back on.

04-11-2011, 02:53 PM	#59 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	Wow that's one of the stupidest magazine covers I have ever seen. Racism is broad with color skin and has sank into ethnic and religious choices. To me a classic example of a facepalm to god is black people persecuting gays. Really? A lot of people, including me, believe you are equal with me and then you say gays are not equal? Really? Racism will never die. Its a lot better than it use to be and its more closeted now but it exists. Whites, blacks, Asians, Europeans, whatever. Racism exists.

04-11-2011, 06:02 PM	#60 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	Man this thread is still kickin? I just wanted to restate, just the point I was trying to make in the initial post was the existence of "reference material" to form biases, fair or unfair as they may be in the minds of people participating in this thread. I'm just saying things like how certain races are portrayed in the media, music, movies, whatever, didn't exist in the 50's like it does now. Back then it was just fear of the uncertain, now it's just a media frenzy of being scared because the TV told you so. much like the news making you think that the world is so unsafe that if you go outside and make friends with the neighbor you might get shot & robbed, if you walk alone at night, that you'll get raped, that if you leave your car unlocked that it will get stolen, etc.. I hope people are clear on that by now. lol