Why can't anyone prove ghosts? - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sun Tzu · 08-18-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I have some more questions!

1. There are 7,000,000,000 people on this planet. A frightening amount of them will admit to having had a paranormal experience in their life, many saying they've actually seen a ghost or apparition or something of that manner. Ok, so if we have a pretty large sample size (say, in the billions) of people who believe in haunted houses and ghosts and stuff, why can't 1 of them show us an example? Think about it. You grow up hearing ghost stories and haunted houses and native american burial grounds. People who used to live in a house where someone died. Someone was walking through a graveyard and saw a ghost.

Ok ok ok. I know most people believe this stuff, but why can't one single damned person show us? No one can take me to a ghost right now. No one can take me to a haunted house. No one can show me how their candle moved 2 inches overnight. Why? If paranormal events are real, if ghosts are real, if spirits and apparitions really exist, why can't it be proven? Why aren't scientists knee deep in experiments and research parties at haunted houses? Why aren't we spending money on finding out why there's ghosts roaming graveyards? It's because when it's time to put the money where the mouth is, nothing is there. Can someone clear this up?

Also, I will secretly hate you if you give the "you can't have a paranormal experience unless you WANT to have a paranormal experience" bullshit answer.

SUSY, Kaluza-Klein, fermions, and bosons are difficult for me to comprehend. Many here may have a solid grasp. Do you think there are other dimensions?

ManWithAPlan · 08-20-2009, 06:03 PM

This thread outright angers me. I'm sorry. If I showed you a picture of a ghost right now, you'd say it was photoshopped. 50 years ago there was no photoshop, but there were other ways.

The bottom line is, there will always be enough skepticism and enough ambiguity. I mean, really... you have people on drugs who report ghosts. So say for every 1 real ghost (hypothetically), you get 10 people who report fake ones and it gets disproved, or they are on drugs. Really casts doubt on the whole thing, obviously and necessarily.

It doesn't matter how many people there are. In fact, it only makes it worse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

I have some more questions!

1. There are 7,000,000,000 people on this planet. A frightening amount of them will admit to having had a paranormal experience in their life, many saying they've actually seen a ghost or apparition or something of that manner. Ok, so if we have a pretty large sample size (say, in the billions) of people who believe in haunted houses and ghosts and stuff, why can't 1 of them show us an example? Think about it. You grow up hearing ghost stories and haunted houses and native american burial grounds. People who used to live in a house where someone died. Someone was walking through a graveyard and saw a ghost.

Ok ok ok. I know most people believe this stuff, but why can't one single damned person show us? No one can take me to a ghost right now. No one can take me to a haunted house. No one can show me how their candle moved 2 inches overnight. Why? If paranormal events are real, if ghosts are real, if spirits and apparitions really exist, why can't it be proven? Why aren't scientists knee deep in experiments and research parties at haunted houses? Why aren't we spending money on finding out why there's ghosts roaming graveyards? It's because when it's time to put the money where the mouth is, nothing is there. Can someone clear this up?

Also, I will secretly hate you if you give the "you can't have a paranormal experience unless you WANT to have a paranormal experience" bullshit answer.

Belligerentkj · 09-04-2009, 03:23 PM

The one thing that we as humans tend to forget is that we are human. Our bodies are so complex that no matter how far advanced we are in science we still can not explain many things. So how our bodies react to the world and the things in it are still a hypothesis at best. A few years back there was a study done on humans. One of the things that they found was that a branch breaking at the right point next to the temple could cause a human to be knocked unconscious by the transfer of energy. That being said things such as Gost, Dragons, Bigfoots, Gods and things of the like have been found in ever culture in this world. I know that it's a corny reference at best, but the 1998 movie Merlin made a very good point about the supernatural and how humans enteract with it. We have the ability to create with our minds, Gost, Dragons, Bigfoots, Gods and many other things. Back to my corny reference, When we choose to beleave in something wholeheartedly it becomes as real as you or I in the physical realm because we project it from our mind to our world. Take a stalker and their obsession. To them that person is in love with them and no matter what you say to them it will not change their views on the matter because they beleave it wholeheartedly. The same can be said for any religion. The answer to your question is in the eyes of the beholder.

jnthnlllshprd · 09-11-2009, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asaris

Perhaps it's just hard to see a ghost? I mean, I couldn't show you my fiancee right now, since she's at work, but that doesn't mean she doesn't exist.

That is a terrible analogy. The difference is you can show us your fiance when she gets off work, while a person can never show someone else a ghost on that simple a whim.

boink · 09-11-2009, 04:26 PM

but there are endless things I can't see that I know exist.

tiberry · 09-20-2009, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasereth

There is a hell of a lot of sidestepping of this question in this thread. Fuck what the semantics of the words "evidence, proof, exist," etc. mean. Give me a break. Everybody in this thread knows what I mean when I say evidence, proof, and existence. Either ghosts exist or they don't, and I find it extremely interesting that most people believe they do. That's what this thread is about.

First, the scientific perspective: I think it very important to consider the specific nature of "proof" for the existence of "ghosts"; sight, sound, magnetic field interference, gravity - some generally accepted and measurable means to quantify the existence of an object, whether to use traditional physics or quantum physics is up to you.

Now the philosophical answer (since this is the correct forum): Most people believe ghosts exist because they want them to. The existence of an entity that was once "alive", but now "dead" as we understand the terms is of great import to the human mind - that of immortality.

Am I on the right track to answering your fundamental question?

cellfactor · 09-21-2009, 03:13 PM

What you are asking is very difficult but not impossible. When I was a kid I had a few incidences of seeing demons in my bed room and scared the s**t out of me.

My grandma wanted to go to Hajj(prayer in Mecca) but had to take care of my grandfather because his foot was severely injured in an accident. Her neighbors went to hajj that year then came back. They told her we saw you there. She told them she didn't go. You might believe me or not but I believe my grandma 100% and have no reason to believe her loving neighbors would lie to her.

My dear friend went to a house that was said to be haunted. His friend tricked him one night and started playing with the switches of light without him knowing. It scared the hell out of him thinking it was ghosts. Then he told him and my friend who was afraid got mad at him. Then moments later the light started playing again. He said stop it, his friend said it wasn't me. Then they both got scared and left.

I had a drawing school teacher when I was young who was also an exorcist. He was known for his second job as an exorcist and used to go to homes of people who's members may had spells or devils. He's a true person and doesn't lie. I know liers/exagerators easily because I don't lie even when I get ideas. I only lie to my parents sometimes if I'm very embarrassed about something and I usually tell them later.

I would think most if not all people in the world has encountered at least one or more supernatural incidences in their life.

Creatures of the other world whether good or bad seem to appear more to the faith full as an "Aya" or evidence of creation in my humble opinion. Evidences come as a gift from God either by a person seeking knowledge of the creator or by you believing in him. In my religion same as Christianity, you have to pray for God at night in good faith to see prophet Mohammad if you want to see him in your dreams. And this also comes as a gift for the faithful.

If you want to see ghost its very possible but costs money. You have to travel around the world to places where people said they seen ghosts like diplomat hotel shown on youtube in a far eastern country. And you have to stay in for the night if you are not afraid. I don't think I would do it or if I want to do it, I would have a motorcycle with remote control ignition nearby.

In essence, yes its possible. Travel the world go to places, but you have to spend money to stay in different places for a few nights each.

tiberry · 09-26-2009, 06:23 AM

Cellfactor -

Please, do describe your experience and help us to understand how you are sure that you saw "demons". Try to explain it in a way that we (who were not there) can be convinced.

That should go a long way to answer the OP's question.

bexaie · 11-14-2009, 08:54 AM

Personally, I have not seen a ghost. But several people I know have including my best friend and my nan who has apparently seen "many over the years".

Vigilante · 11-14-2009, 12:38 PM

I laugh at the debate. Lasereth, I know you'll hate reading that, to some degree

I see them all the time. Lately more than usual. Not sure why the slight change, but anyways..

I have had experiences that included other people, so it was not some "figment of imagination" or "dreaming". When something screams several feet away from you at a very high volume in the middle of a field under open sky, with a witness, and the voice comes from nothing apparent in the direction you turn to look at, you know you've experienced something few ever do.

I've seen forms of energy invisible to others many times, sometimes "feeling" them externally (there's that subjective term) before the experience. I've heard random voices since I was a child, sometimes even to the point that I went to my family to see who was calling me while I was in the bedroom playing with toys. That went away for decades until a month ago, when I heard the first real voice, that I hadn't experienced since I was a kid. It was a simple request made to me, nothing like a schizophrenic experience or something of that nature. The request was personal and not to be talked about here.

About 2 months ago I watched a human form walk across the room and go through my closet door. It was very apparent and completely ignored my wife and I, like a passerby. I was nowhere near sleeping at the time, and it was not some random shadow made up by my overworked brain. It was surprising enough and it lasted long enough that I was able to stop, widen my eyes and take stock of the shape before it moved on. Around 2 seconds, which is actually a long time for this sort of experience.

I got blasted by a "feeling" as I was walking downstairs at 4AM 2 days ago. I turned to see white light near the ceiling, shooting out of view quickly. I detected more movement around 5 feet high that was subtle, then more light near the ceiling again, this time in plain view. I just shrugged it off, said "I'm going to bed, don't bother my family. If you're friendly, you're ok." and went to bed. Whatever.

People are locking down ways to show existence, but in the meantime it will remain a subjective experience for those that happen to notice.

In the meantime I have zero doubt of the reality of another reality, but not everyone is going to experience that. Thus is life. Keeping debating

bexaie · 11-14-2009, 04:08 PM

Thought I'd actually attempt to answer the question. There are still many theories or beliefs that exist in the universe held by different people and cultures that are not empirically proven...if ghosts do indeed exist is there a way in which they can be empirically proven to everyone's satisfaction, I doubt it.

bexaie · 11-23-2009, 09:41 AM

Furthermore, surely the mass accounts of ghostly experiences must count for something. It cannot be said that every account of a ghostly experience is either a lie or a mistake, even if most are.

Vigilante · 11-23-2009, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bexaie

Furthermore, surely the mass accounts of ghostly experiences must count for something. It cannot be said that every account of a ghostly experience is either a lie or a mistake, even if most are.

I can tell you now, it means nothing if it is not a personal experience for many people here (shocked into belief) or scientifically reproduceable (unable to be argued against). Even so, look at how many people still argue against evolution, yet it damn near slaps you in the face when you look at the evidence.

My wife and I know things now that we share through personal experiences, that only a handful of people will ever understand. As we sat and talked last night, we shed tears at the profound nature of our knowledge, and that so many billions of people will never see or understand it. These things that we have experienced will never be explained to people and if they were explained, 99.9999% wouldn't believe or understand anyways.

Ghosts are what they are. If you get it, great. If you don't, that's great as well. If you have an open mind you have a chance of understanding, if you do not, there is no reason to blame or judge. Some people live here in this plane, and some people don't. Pun intended

09-11-2009, 04:26 PM	#125 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	but there are endless things I can't see that I know exist. __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

09-21-2009, 03:13 PM	#127 (permalink)
cellfactor Upright	Yes, its possible to see ghosts but might cost money + time What you are asking is very difficult but not impossible. When I was a kid I had a few incidences of seeing demons in my bed room and scared the s**t out of me. My grandma wanted to go to Hajj(prayer in Mecca) but had to take care of my grandfather because his foot was severely injured in an accident. Her neighbors went to hajj that year then came back. They told her we saw you there. She told them she didn't go. You might believe me or not but I believe my grandma 100% and have no reason to believe her loving neighbors would lie to her. My dear friend went to a house that was said to be haunted. His friend tricked him one night and started playing with the switches of light without him knowing. It scared the hell out of him thinking it was ghosts. Then he told him and my friend who was afraid got mad at him. Then moments later the light started playing again. He said stop it, his friend said it wasn't me. Then they both got scared and left. I had a drawing school teacher when I was young who was also an exorcist. He was known for his second job as an exorcist and used to go to homes of people who's members may had spells or devils. He's a true person and doesn't lie. I know liers/exagerators easily because I don't lie even when I get ideas. I only lie to my parents sometimes if I'm very embarrassed about something and I usually tell them later. I would think most if not all people in the world has encountered at least one or more supernatural incidences in their life. Creatures of the other world whether good or bad seem to appear more to the faith full as an "Aya" or evidence of creation in my humble opinion. Evidences come as a gift from God either by a person seeking knowledge of the creator or by you believing in him. In my religion same as Christianity, you have to pray for God at night in good faith to see prophet Mohammad if you want to see him in your dreams. And this also comes as a gift for the faithful. If you want to see ghost its very possible but costs money. You have to travel around the world to places where people said they seen ghosts like diplomat hotel shown on youtube in a far eastern country. And you have to stay in for the night if you are not afraid. I don't think I would do it or if I want to do it, I would have a motorcycle with remote control ignition nearby. In essence, yes its possible. Travel the world go to places, but you have to spend money to stay in different places for a few nights each.

09-26-2009, 06:23 AM	#128 (permalink)
tiberry Insane Location: Location, Location!	Cellfactor - Please, do describe your experience and help us to understand how you are sure that you saw "demons". Try to explain it in a way that we (who were not there) can be convinced. That should go a long way to answer the OP's question. __________________ My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

11-14-2009, 12:38 PM	#130 (permalink)
Vigilante Broken Arrow Location: US	I laugh at the debate. Lasereth, I know you'll hate reading that, to some degree I see them all the time. Lately more than usual. Not sure why the slight change, but anyways.. I have had experiences that included other people, so it was not some "figment of imagination" or "dreaming". When something screams several feet away from you at a very high volume in the middle of a field under open sky, with a witness, and the voice comes from nothing apparent in the direction you turn to look at, you know you've experienced something few ever do. I've seen forms of energy invisible to others many times, sometimes "feeling" them externally (there's that subjective term) before the experience. I've heard random voices since I was a child, sometimes even to the point that I went to my family to see who was calling me while I was in the bedroom playing with toys. That went away for decades until a month ago, when I heard the first real voice, that I hadn't experienced since I was a kid. It was a simple request made to me, nothing like a schizophrenic experience or something of that nature. The request was personal and not to be talked about here. About 2 months ago I watched a human form walk across the room and go through my closet door. It was very apparent and completely ignored my wife and I, like a passerby. I was nowhere near sleeping at the time, and it was not some random shadow made up by my overworked brain. It was surprising enough and it lasted long enough that I was able to stop, widen my eyes and take stock of the shape before it moved on. Around 2 seconds, which is actually a long time for this sort of experience. I got blasted by a "feeling" as I was walking downstairs at 4AM 2 days ago. I turned to see white light near the ceiling, shooting out of view quickly. I detected more movement around 5 feet high that was subtle, then more light near the ceiling again, this time in plain view. I just shrugged it off, said "I'm going to bed, don't bother my family. If you're friendly, you're ok." and went to bed. Whatever. People are locking down ways to show existence, but in the meantime it will remain a subjective experience for those that happen to notice. In the meantime I have zero doubt of the reality of another reality, but not everyone is going to experience that. Thus is life. Keeping debating __________________ We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -Winston Churchill

09-04-2009, 03:23 PM	#123 (permalink)
Belligerentkj Upright Location: Where ever I can pitch a tent.	The one thing that we as humans tend to forget is that we are human. Our bodies are so complex that no matter how far advanced we are in science we still can not explain many things. So how our bodies react to the world and the things in it are still a hypothesis at best. A few years back there was a study done on humans. One of the things that they found was that a branch breaking at the right point next to the temple could cause a human to be knocked unconscious by the transfer of energy. That being said things such as Gost, Dragons, Bigfoots, Gods and things of the like have been found in ever culture in this world. I know that it's a corny reference at best, but the 1998 movie Merlin made a very good point about the supernatural and how humans enteract with it. We have the ability to create with our minds, Gost, Dragons, Bigfoots, Gods and many other things. Back to my corny reference, When we choose to beleave in something wholeheartedly it becomes as real as you or I in the physical realm because we project it from our mind to our world. Take a stalker and their obsession. To them that person is in love with them and no matter what you say to them it will not change their views on the matter because they beleave it wholeheartedly. The same can be said for any religion. The answer to your question is in the eyes of the beholder.

11-14-2009, 08:54 AM	#129 (permalink)
bexaie Upright	Personally, I have not seen a ghost. But several people I know have including my best friend and my nan who has apparently seen "many over the years".

11-14-2009, 04:08 PM	#131 (permalink)
bexaie Upright	Thought I'd actually attempt to answer the question. There are still many theories or beliefs that exist in the universe held by different people and cultures that are not empirically proven...if ghosts do indeed exist is there a way in which they can be empirically proven to everyone's satisfaction, I doubt it.

11-23-2009, 09:41 AM	#132 (permalink)
bexaie Upright	Furthermore, surely the mass accounts of ghostly experiences must count for something. It cannot be said that every account of a ghostly experience is either a lie or a mistake, even if most are.