ObieX

So i was taking a look at the other heaven thread there about how it would be boring and then it struck me: God gave all humans free will, right? Thats what the "good book" tells me anyway. But does it say anything about if this free will goes with you to heaven, or if it is just an artifact of having a body in this realm of existence?

If you have free will in heaven, and you use that free will to do something "bad" can you subsequently be kicked out of heaven? You were "good" enough to get into this place of "eternal" bliss, but is it a one way ticket? The devil got his punk ass booted, so does that mean we'll have to flutter around on cloud-borne eggshells? Do you get sent to purgatory for a "time-out" to think about the badness of what you did like a kid sent to his room?

And does this kinda thing go both ways? If you were a crazy neck-slitting blood-drinking donkey-raping motherfucker on earth and get sent to hell, can you then use your free will to "find Jeebus" and save your soul? Or are you just shoved into a dark hot hole and forgotten about for all time? What about the forgiving all-loving God, then?

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We Must Dissent.

AYHJA

I don't believe I've ever read of heaven in the "good book" as being an actual 'place' where humans have been, going, or meant to be in...The word that has been translated as heaven in the bible simply means 'sky'...Heaven and hell as places were invented by the likes of Milton, I'm afraid...

But in a purely hypothetical sense, and using the story in the bible...If an angel can be kicked out, why would a lowly in comparison to human be allowed unimpeded residence in such a place of glory..?

levite

Well, I'm not a Christian, so my concept of "heaven" is a little different than their model. But I believe in something like it, and I also believe that free will is irrevocable. The way I reconcile the two is by also believing that one probably doesn't get into The World To Come (our version of heaven) without coming to a point in development where one probably isn't going to be too inclined towards greedy, selfish, brutal, and ruthless behavior. I also believe in a kind of reincarnation, which means that one could potentially have quite a while to learn those lessons and get to that point of development before going to the World To Come, so that makes the whole framework a little more reasonable, I think....

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Willravel

Either there is sin in heaven or there is not free will. Greed, selfishness, brutality, ruthlessness is in me. I don't let them out often, but they're there. Either those aspects of self would be removed by some supernatural mechanism, maintaining the peace of heaven (or The Place To Come), or said afterlife would include the chaos present in the nature of man.

thespian86

Agreed Will, again.

I'm just going to have you answer for me from now on.

Also, I have read that it would be a time of overwhelming joy and praise. For eternity. Therefore no choices?

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EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

levite

Why could you hypothesize heaven but not enlightenment?

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Willravel

Enlightenment is kinda subjective, isn't it? How would you characterize or define enlightenment?

I'd like to think that in some ways I'm enlightened like a buddha, but I'm not 100% enlightened. I doubt anyone is. The thing is, I'm using my own subjective meaning of enlightenment, though. Your enlightenment might be completely different.

filtherton

I think that it is sometimes pointless to argue about the implications of things which don't really have a concrete definition. It can be satisfying, though.

Ustwo

This one is easy.

Of course there is free will in heaven, and there is no sin.

When you are surrounded by LORDS light and feel him in all your being, you will have no desire to sin as the weaknesses of the flesh shall have past and you will be one with the LORDS love.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Some of the best debates I've ever had were about the implications of the interpretations of greek mythology in ancient Greece. I miss my anthropology classes.

Ustwo, you're creepin me out.

filtherton

That's what I'm talking about.

levite

Fair enough, Will. A good point as always. But it seems to me that enlightenment is supposed to be...enlightening. It's supposed to raise one's spiritual and psychoemotional awareness to a level where one sheds negative behaviors, thoughts, and urges. If not, then what is enlightenment?

And of course I would agree nobody is really enlightened here, in this world, this plane of existence. But in heaven? Where, I presume, we remember all of the experiences and the lessons we learned from all of our lives that we've lived in world, and we have perspective unavailable to this plane of existence, and God is more directly available for teaching, clarity, and love?

Why not in heaven?

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

AKR

According to the bible, we're of higher status than angels. Remember that the angels were told to bow before Adam.

Baraka_Guru

From what I heard, there ain't no misbehavin' or the Lord will kick your shit out like he did to Lucifer.

Free will was given to us so that we can prove our love to God.

Don't screw it up.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

AYHJA

Hmm...What scripture did you read that..?

ottopilot

I believe we operate at various levels of consciousness. One end of the spectrum is a basic survival consciousness directly linked to physical attributes, our body/vessel, the machine for navigation of the physical reality. At the end of the spectrum is pure spiritual connectivity to the universe (or God, for lack of terms). When we shed our vessel upon death, we return to the body of God. We are what God is. Free will would become unnecessary.

I also believe that interwoven between these levels of consciousness and the constant interaction with the vessel, we sometimes encounter anomalies which permanently alter our brain function (our CPU and telecomm center). They can be brought on by birth defect, injury, sickness, environmental issues, psychological damage, etc. Defective "wiring" or damage at the molecular level within our DNA can affect our maturation and eventually shape how our physical consciousness perceives the environment, interpreting, and acting out. In essence, I believe we as purely spiritual beings are not evil. If our machine is defective, especially when gradual degradation allows the most severe symptoms to go unchecked, the interpretive level of consciousness becomes skewed and acts inappropriately.

Did I really say that?

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"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Nimetic

Yep. That's saying it.

MuadDib

Heaven is always an interesting conversation since the Bible is pretty silent when it comes to the details. Denominations differ a fair amount on their 'official' stances/descriptions of the afterlife, but more varied is what individual folks assume about it.

Personally, I've consider heaven to be something of a unification with the almighty, including all the knowledge that goes with such a thing. The question then is if God has free will though he cannot do 'wrong'. More philosophically, can someone who knows everything really be considered to have free will in a causal reality (a la the book that boasted my namesake)? And finally, what assumptions we throwing behind the idea of free will; how truly 'free' are any of our decisions when we are time and time again shown to be slaves to subconscious prerogatives that can be manipulated by whim or circumstance?

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