Cyborg Ninja

I am a secular woman and I adhere to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Does this seem unusual? I believe that my views would be the same even if Jesus never existed. I was raised in a secular household, so Christian views weren't pushed on me in any way, though I have studied the religion off and on since I was 11. There are many figures in history that are similar to Jesus: Gandhi, Buddha, etc. Basically, those people who put others above themselves. It is an admirable trait and a very rare one at that.

Unfortunately, Jesus' teachings have been twisted by millions throughout history. I wonder if he realized what an impact he would have on the world. I also am conflicted as to whether or not he truly claimed to be God, or that his Apostles misinterpreted him. Either way, I think his teachings are important for us to learn and keep close at heart.

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DaveOrion

I agree, His teachings have been twisted and downright raped to one degree or another. His Kingdom, which is not an earthly kingdom, was turned into an organized religion, and corrupted in order to control the masses.

Funny how people still look for God in a church made of wood & stone, they seem to forget where the only real church is........

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Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

Infinite_Loser

^Oh, boy. I'd love to hear the rationalization behind this one.

*Grabs a bucket of popcorn*

...I'm guessing you've never heard of the sect of Nazarene, huh?

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

DaveOrion

Hows the popcorn Loser??? And hows the weather down in Lake Mary???

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Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

roachboy

um...which teachings?
i assume that you split the gospels off from the epistles...

what does it mean for you to follow them?

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

asaris

And how does it differ from any other vaguely humanistic philosophy? It's always seemed to me that what makes Jesus' teachings unique are those things that characterize the religion -- sin and grace. Most of the other teachings you could probably learn just as well from Deepak Chopra.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Baraka_Guru

....except Jesus doesn't try to confuse things by bringing in quantum physics.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

that's how you can tell jesus and deepak chopra apart, baraka.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

abaya

Yes, without a firm belief in those (and their impact on your eternal soul--another concept that you have to believe in), Christianity doesn't have anything on other religions. You have to believe in a need for personal redemption--not just in the here and now, but in a very real afterlife--in order to have a need for Jesus.

For me, once I stopped believing in hell, it was all over. Slippery slope, all that jazz. Sure, I was still able to get behind the idea of redemption in the here and now, sin being that which we do to hurt ourselves and each other, grace as in the undeserved forgiveness and acceptance of ourselves and each other after enduring those hurts--but I could no longer make sense of how these principles would apply to an afterlife, as a way of "gatekeeping" some eternal place of glory vs. punishment/separation from God.

So I ceased being able to believe in that kind of sin and grace, and there was no choice but to stop calling myself a Christian. It would not be fair to those who do subscribe to, believe in, and truly live by those principles. I have no patience for hypocrisy in religious individuals, least of all myself. It's all or nothing, to me. There is no room for half-assedness in my understanding of faith.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cyborg Ninja

Humanism as we know it today didn't exist until fairly recently. Jesus of Nazareth preached nearly two millennia ago. Existing in a time and place where ritualism without spirituality as the norm and preaching something entirely different — that deserves some approval. The teachings I adhere to are the ones from the Gospels, not the Epistles (mostly), like you figured. I do consider myself a secular humanist today, in case anyone's curious. It's funny how so many conservatives act like Humanism is Satanism somehow... but that's for another topic.

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abaya

I would say that many evangelicals consider secular humanism to be "not of the Lord," etc. I don't know if they would go so far as to call it Satanism, but with evangelicalism (and indeed, with most branches of Christianity, if you get down to brass tacks), anything that is NOT inclusive of Jesus Christ is inherently wrong and subject to error. This is due to the whole business of Jesus being "the way, the truth, and the life... no one comes to the Father except through me"... pretty blatant there, there's no way to be redeemed and have eternal life UNLESS you become a Christian. So by that logic, secular humanism (different from Christian Humanism, something I was very interested in for a long time) was a slippery slope away from Jesus, which always means "towards hell." There's no way of getting around that, in the gospels or otherwise.

The thing that I can't get about Christianity is that basically, unless you're explicitly Christian (e.g. have done the salvation prayer, asked Jesus for forgiveness, yadda yadda), YOU ARE GOING TO HELL. No two ways around it. I have never been able to forgive Christianity for this fact, I suppose. Even if you are the most tolerant, open-minded Christian in the world, as long as you know that I have NOT said the salvation prayer, you are going to believe (at some gut level) that I am going to hell. I find that extremely disturbing, now that I have left the fold. What a way to live and interact with your fellow man!

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Infinite_Loser

^I don't see why you find it disturbing unless you believe you're going to hell, otherwise you wouldn't care. With that being said, I'm not familiar with too many religions in which you're not subjected to eternal damnation unless you convert. It's not just a "Christian" thing. Who knew? Obviously not you

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

abaya

Let me clarify: I don't find the idea of hell disturbing, because indeed, I don't give a rat's ass about it.

What I find disturbing is that when an evangelical Christian interacts with me, the primary thought in their mind (in one way or another) is that "here is an unsaved person," or that I have "rejected my salvation," that I am somehow "wretched," "corrupt," etc. in their minds. It doesn't matter what else I am capable of, or what is going on in my life, etc... all that matters is whether or not they can relate to me (or not) as a fellow person going to heaven. I find it extremely annoying. I much prefer to simply interact as two humans, both doing the best we can, regardless of where we believe we're going (or not) after we die. But Christians are compelled to *worry* about where other people are going when they die. I wish they wouldn't bother, frankly.
I did not say that it was "just" a Christian thing. I, specifically, used to be a Christian, and I walked away from Christianity. If I had formerly been a Hindu, Muslim, Jew, or something else, then I would have been walking away from those religions. As it is, I have issues with pretty much all religions, so no, I don't see it is as "just a Christian" thing. But it is the only religion that I have summarily rejected, and it is the topic of this thread, so that is why I couched my post in those terms.

And since you asked, with Buddhism there is no "eternal damnation," and there isn't really even a "conversion." You either live it, or you don't. If I was forced to choose another belief system, I would have to go with that one. Not the pop-culture one that is served up in, say, Theravada Buddhism, however... (which I'm most familiar with from Thai culture), but something more adherent to doctrine.

By the way, what's up with the demeaning attitude here? I'd appreciate it if you toned it down a bit.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Cyborg Ninja

I don't know why Infinite_Loser is acting like a jerk here, but I did notice it, Abaya. Loser: Please don't try to make this forum a crappy one where all we have are trolls and flames. There are plenty of those already. BTW, opposite of what you think, you're coming off as the ignorant one here.

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MSD

He's know for an abrasive style, but as long as he stays in line and discussion continues it's allowed, even if just barely. We keep an eye on people who are known to toe the line and smack them when they try to cross it.

If anyone violates a rule, or you think they did but aren't sure, please report the post and/or PM a moderator. If anyone has problems with another member, we're happy to work with you to resolve them.

Infinite_Loser: I would appreciate if you would tone it down some and consider how you come across to other members. This isn't the first time people have mentioned that your posts are condescending and demeaning.

filtherton

There are a lot of christians who don't believe in eternal damnation. There are also a lot of christians who are essentially secular.

ubertuber

I think that begs the question of where we cross the line from considering a diluted version of Christianity and where you're dealing with a belief structure that can't really be considered Christian. I won't venture an opinion - I'm now far enough outside of the issue that I can't really comment on it. But surely there's a line somewhere?

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Baraka_Guru

I think that where Christianity as a religion and Christianity as a philosophy breaks with one another is how each looks at hell. I think the religiously minded will tend to take the view that our failing to live like Jesus Christ will end in hell, and that is something to fear. The philosophically minded will instead look at the teachings of Jesus and think, "Why would breaking from the teachings of Jesus place us in a state akin to hell? What is it about this morality that is pure and good? What is it about everything else that is impure and evil?" It is like Buddhism, where misery arises out of our straying off the righteous path.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

Well, i would imagine the line is drawn depending on how rigidly one clings to one's own sense of dogma. I think that the idea that there is only one way to be a true christian is fairly ridiculous. For it to hold water there would need to be some way for a particular sect to make reasonable claim to being the only true christian sect, a claim which isn't really credible, since even under the umbrella of major denominational classifications there can be a pretty wide spread in terms of belief. The only reason people claim that their way is the one true way is because that's what they think their god wants them to believe, which, you know, doesn't make it true.

It's kind of like if i were to claim that you can only be a true football fan if you acknowledge that walter payton was the best running back in the history of league. Who the fuck am i to define what it means to be a football fan?

Infinite_Loser

Oh, but you will As my grandmother always says, sometimes some people get too big for their britches (a.k.a, you think you know more than you actually do).

Let's see... How can I put this in a delicate manner... It really doesn't matter what you find as annoying. One of the underlying premise of almost any belief system-- Philosophical, social and/or political-- Is to garner as many adherents as possible (I know I've said this before but it gets ignored every single time). You choose not to follow the teachings of Christ, so as far as Christianity is concerned you're wrong and need to be converted. Whether you're a "good" person or not is pretty irrelevent.

Phew... That was a close one, seeing as how I said "all" and/or any other word resembling as much. Ya' know, I'm not the smartest person in the world (Hah! Who am I kidding? Yes, I am) I could have almost sworn-- Almost-- That I said, and I quote, "I'm not familiar with too many religions in which you're not subjected to eternal damnation unless you convert". Yes, yes. I know all about Buddhism, hence what caused me to make my initial statement. I'm not understanding why you seem to love focusing on bits and pieces of what I write out while ignoring the rest. It's, mildly put, annoying >_>

I have no attitude. I'm, as we Southern black folk tend to say, telling it like it is. But if you want me to cop an attitude, then I can

So does this mean I could start a new brand of atheism which worships Jesus as the son of God and still have it be branded as a true form of as atheism? I'm just wondering because it appears to me this is what you're saying.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

ubertuber

Filtherton: can it really be completely relative?

I ask because I have recently heard claims and rejections of the idea that Mormonism is a flavor of Christianity. To me, that seems to be stretching things a bit - I mean, at some point a group could claim to fall under the umbrella, but a reasonable analysis would disagree.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Cyborg Ninja

MrSelfDestruct: do you recommend completely ignoring people like Loser, or should we go ahead and trash his poorly-conceived arguments?

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Infinite_Loser

Well, you see, those are fighting words. As they say, talk is cheap. If you believe you can then, by all means, go ahead and try to trash my "Poorly-conceived arguments", as you want to call them.

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

filtherton

No. Regardless of what i'm saying, the definition of atheism still implies a lack of a belief in a diety. The term christianity implies a belief in and following of jesus. That's it, despite what your pastor told you. It doens't mean you have to hate homosexuals, it doesn't mean that interracial marriages are an abomination, it just means that you place a high priority on the worship of the jesus. You can pretend that you're following the only "true" form of christianity, but you'd be full of shit in doing so.


It's completely relative. There are many folks who call themselves christian who would no doubt disagree, but they really have no basis for their disagreement that isn't completely circular. There is no consensus on the "correct" details concerning proper christian belief and there is no objective definition, hence the many different sects that exist. All the baptists and the ucc folk really have in common is that they both believe in christ, but claiming that only one is "truly"
christian isn't really all that compelling because any such claim would necessarily be based on matters of opinion.

Certainly most christians don't think that their christianity isn't the true one, but that should be pretty obvious; why would they? But, if pat robertson can be a good christian, being the greedy, bigoted anti-jesus that he was, well, that doesn't really point of any sort of meaningful definition of christianity, beyond the fact that he professed a belief in and a following of jesus the son of god.

Frosstbyte

IL argues, like one Stephen Colbert's media personality, from the gut with, to be fair to him, a generally acceptable level (if sometimes of controversial origin) background knowledge to back up what he's saying. If you choose to engage him head on, you're basically going to be arguing for the sake of argument as he's not going to change his mind and he's unlikely to change yours.

It is was it is. If it bothers you to argue for the sake of argument, you might choose to not worry about it, as you see fit.

Infinite_Loser

I think you're a little confused on the point I was making. Regardless of what the definition of atheism says, you've implied that I can be an atheist and still accept the Jesus as the son of God. Never mind the fact that the two are contradictory, admitting to being an atheist is enough to make me an atheist. At least this seems to be the stance you've taken with Christianity. Christian literally means follower of Christ and his teachings, not the worship of Christ. Therefore, if you're not following the teaching of Christ it would stand to reason that you're not a Christian.

*Shrugs*

Or does that mean I can start a new brand of Islam which doesn't adhere to the teaching of Muhammad? lol

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

abaya

Care to explain yourself?

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ubertuber

Can we be clear on the fact that this thread is not really about Infinite_Loser?

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Cyborg Ninja

I argue for the basis of spreading truth, including to the person I am arguing against. I am open-minded; please don't lump me in with someone like that.

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tecoyah

If this is accepted truth....then in my opinion there truly are....no Christians.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

filtherton

No, the point you were making was a bit confused.

No, i didn't actually imply that you can be an atheist and still accept jesus as the son of god. The fact that you think this seems to be the stance i've taken on christianity means that you don't understand the stance i've taken on christianity.

Never the less, for you to claim that
doesn't really mean all that much in the context of the current discussion, since there are a whole lot of completely divergent, yet essentially reasonable ways to follow christ and his teachings.

But, i guess you're one of those folks who thinks that there is only one correct way to "follow" christ and his teachings, which means that you're one of those folks who is wrong. But let me guess, the way that you interpret the teachings of christ is the correct one, and anyone who interprets them differently is wrong, right? So what's your denomination and when was the last time it changed its mind about something jesus-y?

You should start a new brand of christianity that allows interracial marriage.

abaya

Isn't there really only one way to be a Christian, in the trans-denominational, core-doctrine sense of the word... to accept Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven as historical fact, and to believe that these actions (Jesus' blood covering your sins, etc) will give you eternal life?

I guess I don't see a whole lot of room to argue with Jesus saying "the only way to the Father is through Me," but maybe I missed something in all my years as an evangelical/Lutheran/Baptist/dabbling Catholic.

Regardless of what someone calls themselves (based on the way they were raised, their dominant culture, etc), anyone who does not believe 100% in the absolute foundation of Christianity cannot, as I see it, be a Christian. Including myself.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

I'm surprised no one disagreed with this earlier. It's the biggest assumption you're making, and understandably so - it is at the core of defending your world view.

If you want to critically analyze your beliefs, you should start here. Why do you believe that humanism "as we know it" didn't exist until "fairly recently". This sounds a bit like double-speak, as "as we know it" cannot be defined; we don't have the same knowledge, and "fairly recently" is similarly undefined - is recently 10 years, 50 years, 100 years?

I tend to believe that contemporary humanism is identical to the humanism expressed by cavemen forming civil society, as it is a simple philosophy. Don't do what you don't want done to you, and act altruistically because it serves to benefit the society (and consequently you, if everyone follows it).

The only benefit that Jesus of Nazareth or similar spiritual leaders provided (presuming you don't believe in their divinity) is having it written down. I earnestly believe that humanism predates Christianity, but neither of us can say this conclusively.

That's why I don't understand why Jesus is different for you than any other leader. If we believe the Gospels are truly what Jesus said, then the only thing he has over any other secular humanist is that he has a book written about it. That's not impressive enough for me to 'follow' him as you do.

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"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

MSD

I recommend at least reading what people have to say. If you choose to ignore what another member says because you consider replying to be "feeding the trolls," that's your prerogative. If you choose to reply in a way that points us toward the truth or highlights important parts of the discussion, you are contributing to the marketplace of ideas and advancing the community.

DaveOrion

The only person that comes even close to the truth....IMO. This may be an example of a true Christian....if you've read the New Testament you'll understand why......

I sat, with two friends, in the picture window of a quaint restaurant just off the corner of the town-square. The food and the company were both especially good that day. As we talked, my attention was drawn outside, across the street. There, walking into town was a man, who appeared to be carrying all his worldly goods on his back. He was carrying a well-worn sign that read, "I will work for food."
My heart sank. I brought him to the attention of my friends and noticed that others around us had stopped eating to focus on him. Heads moved in a mixture of sadness and disbelief.
We continued with our meal, but his image lingered in my mind. We finished our meal and went our separate ways. I had errands to do and quickly set out to accomplish them. I glanced toward the town square, looking somewhat halfheartedly for the strange visitor. I was fearful, knowing that seeing him again would call some response. I drove through town and saw nothing of him. I made some purchases at a store and got back in my car.
Deep within me, the Spirit of God kept speaking to me: "Don't go back to the office until you've at least driven once more around the square."
Then with some hesitancy, I headed back into town. As I turned the square's third corner, I saw him. He was standing on the steps of the store front church, going through his sack. I stopped and looked; feeling both compelled to speak to him, yet wanting to drive on.
The empty parking space on the corner seemed to be a sign from God: an invitation to park. I pulled in, got out and approached the town's newest visitor.
"Looking for the pastor?" I asked.
"Not really," he replied, "just resting."
"Have you eaten today?"
"Oh, I ate something early this morning."
"Would you like to have lunch with me?"
"Do you have some work I could do for you?"
"No work," I replied. "I commute here to work from the city, but I would like to take you to lunch."
"Sure," he replied with a smile.
As he began to gather his things, I asked some surface questions. Where you headed?"
"St. Louis." "Where are you from?" "Oh, all over; mostly Florida." "How long you been walking?"
"Fourteen years," came the reply.
I knew I had met someone unusual. We sat across from each other in the same restaurant I had left earlier.
His face was weathered slightly beyond his 38 years. His eyes were dark yet clear, and he spoke with an eloquence and articulation that was startling.
He removed his jacket to reveal a bright red T-shirt that said, "Jesus is The Never Ending Story."
Then Daniel's story began to unfold. He had seen rough times early in life. He'd made some wrong choices and reaped the consequences.
Fourteen years earlier, while backpacking across the country, he had stopped on the beach in Daytona.
He tried to hire on with some men who we're putting up a large tent and some equipment. A concert, he thought.
He was hired, but the tent would not house a concert but revival services, and in those services he saw life more clearly.
He gave his life over to God "Nothing's been the same since," he said, "I felt the Lord telling me to keep walking, and so I did, some 14 years now."
"Ever think of stopping?" I asked.
"Oh, once in a while, when it seems to get the best of me. But God has given me this calling. I give out Bibles. That's what's in my sack. I work to buy food and Bibles, and I give them out when His Spirit leads."
I sat amazed. My homeless friend was not homeless. He was on a mission and lived this way by choice.
The question burned inside for a moment and then I asked: "What's it like?" "What?"
"To walk into a town carrying all your things on your back and to show your sign."
"Oh, it was humiliating at first. People would stare and make comments.
Once someone tossed a piece of half-eaten bread and made a gesture that certainly didn't make me feel welcome. But then it became humbling to realize that God was using me to touch lives and change people's concepts of other folks like me."
My concept was changing, too. We finished our dessert and gathered his things. Just outside the door, he paused. He turned to me and said,
"Come Ye blessed of my Father and inherit the kingdom I've prepared for you.
For when I was hungry you gave me food, when I was thirsty you gave me drink, a stranger and you took me in."
I felt as if we were on holy ground "Could you use another Bible?" I asked.
He said he preferred a certain translation. It traveled well and was not too heavy. It was also his personal favorite. "I've read through it 14 times," he said.
"I'm not sure we've got one of those, but let's stop by our church and see."
I was able to find my new friend a Bible that would do well, and he seemed very grateful.
"Where are you headed from here?" I asked.
"Well, I found this little map on the back of this amusement park coupon."
"Are you hoping to hire on there for a while?"
"No, I just figure I should go there. I figure someone under that star right there needs a Bible, so that's where I'm going next."
He smiled, and the warmth of his spirit radiated the sincerity of his mission.
I drove him back to the town-square where we'd met two hours earlier, and as we drove, it started raining. We parked and unloaded his things.
"Would you sign my autograph book?" he asked. "I like to keep messages from folks I meet."
I wrote in his little book that his commitment to his calling had
touched my life. I encouraged him to stay strong. And I left him with a verse of scripture from Jeremiah,
"I know the plans I have for you, declared the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you; plans to give you a future and a hope"
"Thanks, man," he said. "I know we just met and we're really just strangers, but I love you."
"I know," I said, "I love you, too." "The Lord is good!"
"Yes, He is. How long has it been since someone hugged you?" I asked.
"A long time," he replied.
And so on the busy street corner in the drizzling rain, my new friend and I embraced, and I felt deep inside that I had been changed.
He put his things on his back, smiled his winning smile and said, "See you in the New Jerusalem."
"I'll be there!" was my reply.
He began his journey again. He headed away with his sign dangling from his bedroll and pack of Bibles.
He stopped, turned and said, "When you see something that makes you think of me, will you pray for me?"
"You bet," I shouted back, "God bless." "God bless." And that was the last I saw of him.
Late that evening as I left my office, the wind blew strong. The cold front had settled hard upon the town.
I bundled up and hurried to my car. As I sat back and reached for the emergency brake,
I saw them...a pair of well-worn brown work gloves neatly laid over the length of the handle.
I picked them up and thought of my friend and wondered if his hands would stay warm that night without them.
Then I remembered his words: "If you see something that makes you think of me, will you pray for me?"
Today his gloves lie on my desk in my office. They help me to see the world and its people in a new way, and they help me remember
those two hours with my unique friend and to pray for his ministry. "See you in the New Jerusalem," he said.
Yes, Daniel, I know I will...

__________________
Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

filtherton

I agree with you here, except for your seeming implication that Jesus saying "the only way to the Father is through Me" ncessarily implies the existence of hell.

I think arguments arise when certain folks, for whatever reason, have a difficult time coming to grips with the fact that the word "christian" is a great deal more general than they had previously thought, that they don't have a monopoly on the word.

Infinite_Loser

No, I'm one of those folks who realize that someone isn't a Christian simply because they deem themselves as much. Really, your entire argument boils down to "Who am I to tell someone they're not a Christian?", which is completely faulty. As stated earlier, following that line of thinking I can start a new brand of atheism which acknowledges the existence of a grand diety and you would have to accept it as a logical extension of atheism. As ubertuber said to you earlier, at some point in time an examination of a particular group versus it's parent religion-- In this case Christianity-- Would lead you to believe you're dealing with a bastardized version of Christianity.

Basically, it's like this: Anything which goes contrary to the teachings of Christ is, by definition, not Christian. Any group which rejects the teachings of Christ is also, by deinition, not Christian. It's no simpler to understand than that.

That'd only be necessary if, you know, there was some sort of law inside of Christianity forbidding interracial marriage. Just saying because, well, you know...

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

abaya

I suppose I take this as a given, based on previous years spent in the faith. I no longer believe that hell exists, but to be a Christian, I think you pretty much HAVE to believe in hell... why else would you see a need to "accept Jesus?" So we agree, then.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

filtherton

I'm saying that all it takes to be a christian is the desire to follow jesus. You seem to think that i'm saying that all it takes to be a christian is calling oneself a christian.

No, you don't understand what i'm saying. Trying to create a theistic form of atheism is silly and has nothing to do with what i am saying.

Look, let's say that element x is a member of group X because element x satisfies the necessary conditions required for membership in X. If element x does not satisfy the necessary conditions for membership in X, then x is not in X. Not believing in a diety is a necessary condition for being an atheist, it's actually how atheism is defined. All that i'm saying is that the only necessary condition required for a person (element x) to be a member of christianity (group X) is that the person satisfy the necessary condition (a belief in and following of jesus motherfucking christ). Your analogy wouldn't be useless if i were trying to say that there were no necessary conditions for membership into the christian club. That this isn't what i'm saying should have been obvious from the get-go, since i've mentioned it in practically every post i've made in this thread.

Maybe, except that christianity is actually constantly changing, even the literal interpretationist manifestations of it. What denomination are you IL? Did your denomination exist exactly as it does now before the reformation? If not, why would you think that your denomination would pass uber's test? lol

Depending on how literally you interpret the curse of ham, which, i guess would depend on how "real" you keep it as a christian, many nonwhite folks are decendants of canaan, whose skin was darkened and whose future as a slave was sealed when he had the nerve to walk in on his dad while his dad was naked, either that or he fucked his mom, it depends on how you want to interpret it. But that's just what some members of the "parent religion" thought.

That makes sense if you think the only appealing thing about accepting jesus is avoiding eternal damnation.

DaveOrion

Ok, I'll break my previous post down so all will understand.....

Matthew 6:24-33, similar to Luke 12: 20-32

How many Christians actually live in this manner??? Not many in this country, planning for the future is a way of life.....
Matthew 19:16-23, similar to, Mark 10:24-25 and Luke 18:24-25.

On average most Americans would be considered rich by worldly standards.....How many Christians would sell every thing they own and give it to the poor???

Matthew 5:43-48)

How many Christians actually do this???....or this....

Matthew 6:14-15

I could go on but I wont....finally...
Matthew 5:13-16

How many Christians do this???.....none on this board, myself included. So I'm with Tec, all seem to fall short of being true Christians......

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Syriana...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...