archetypal fool

Often times when reading other people's posts on various subjects, I get an urge to ask them what they feel drives us to be special? It's only a curiosity of mines; one which I haven't sought an answer for until recently. And so I present the following query to my fellow TFP members:

Do you consider us, human beings, as being more than just a complicated assortment of chemicals interacting with each other? Is there some facet about us which you feel elevates us from being just a bunch of elegant machines made of proteins?

Here's my take on it:

Of-course we can think and reason and conceptualize, create tools, imagine, make art, communicate, etc, but these are all just the results of, once again, chemicals reacting with each other in such a way as to give our genes a means for surviving by providing advantageous abilities to their carrying bodies. This is the conclusion I've come to after studying and researching into a broad range of scientific branches. Biology, chemistry, physics; these are the rules of the universe. Fact is, if we weren't here to observe these processes (i.e, if we didn't exist) then these natural processes would be present anyways. In this mind-set, I don't consider us to be any more important or useful than a tree frog.

Perhaps I'm just a pessimist, and I see the world as a cold, dark, lonely place, illuminated and warmed only by our presence within it; but this warmth and light is only apparent to us, so who are we to dictate how the world should be? Who are we to believe in a God when it's presence is only felt in human hearts? Why should we fight over trivialities, all the while ignoring our fundamental brotherhoods, and the insignificance of our existence?

Beautiful harmony exists in the world; a harmony which we should only be an audience to, not an arranger of.*

I kind-of veered off into another direction there near the end, but anyways, enough of that; what does the TFP think? Are we only protein machines, or are we something more? Are we so grand that we transcend the applicabilities of our collective components?


*This post was inspired by this video (Youtube) and Debussy's Clair De lune...I don't know why.

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

tecoyah

We are special.......because we think we are.

Manic_Skafe

"Why should man value himself as more than a small part of the one great unit of creation? And what creature of all that the Lord has taken the pains to make is not essential to the completeness of that unit - the cosmos? The universe would be incomplete without man; but it would also be incomplete without the smallest transmicroscopic creature that dwells beyond our conceitful eyes and knowledge."

- John Muir

Archetypal Fool I couldn't agree with you (and John Muir) more but I've come to the conclusion that there are certain things that we, as a species just can't actively comprehend. I can consider the seemingly infinitesimal significance of our species but that has little effect upon and doesn't speak as loudly as the thoughts and emotions that flicker in my brain.

Just as the knowledge that the sun will one day burn out and our planet will be uninhabitable doesn't depress us all into suicide - neither should the fact that we aren't "special."

At best we should allow it a humbling effect over us - teach us to lighten our footprint on this planet and not go so against the grain with nature. But just as it is the job of animals to follow their instincts, it is our naturally assigned job to think and conceptualize. Perhaps it is even our job to think we are special.

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"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

archetypal fool

Yeah, I get you Manic. But that's my problem exactly: The human race doesn't feel this humbling affect because the vast majority of people don't see things this way; some consider themselves to be the most important things in the universe, and so they must control each other and anyone who they can envelope. Some create and then bicker about "Gods", for absolutely no reason other than it makes them feel special, though all it really does is separate people into more imaginary groups, when this shouldn't be the case (no offense to religious peoples reading this...This is just the way I feel). Some people seek money at all expenses, including the death of other humans and the Earth's health, just because they're selfish and greedy. And this greed is only the result of our own natural selection, since those that are greedy are more likely to survive.

I don't know...It just bothers me that more people don't think this way. Our technology and separation from nature have made us lose our natural curiosity and become monsters on this planet. It's depressing me to no end because people don't understand this.

That's why I love my TFP

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

Willravel

I've met people who aren't special and I don't want any part of that.

tecoyah

To me....it seems the human mind is a fragile thing. For some people accepting the reality of a non-man centered universe would lead to depression, and possible mental instability, thus ignoring the obvious is a self defense mechanism. To be honest, it's OK with me if others don't wish to explore reality.......it might even be a form of evolution in action in the long run. Survival of the fittest mind.

ngdawg

I've always felt we were random...a blend of molecules that came to be...us. No divine inspiration, no hand of creation, nada. We 'won' the creationary(word?) lottery.
Whenever I feel I've gotten 'too big for my britches', I look up at the sky at night. It makes me realize just how insignificant I am in the grander scheme of things. But I also realize that I am a small pebble in a pond and the ripples I make can affect others for decades....it seems conflicting, those two lines of thinking, but they aren't. By knowing how insignificant I, as this particular blend of chemical reaction, am....I want my little ripples to do more than just quiver the algae....but I don't have any need to own the whole pond and I feel more people should realize they shouldn't need to either.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

archetypal fool

Wow, ngdawd, you just summarized exactly how I feel. This was the message I wanted to convey, but I couldn't find the right words like you did. Thanks.

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

tecoyah

Yeah....she does that sometimes.......Bitch

Taltos

I'll hold to the minority view, then, I guess. I believe that all things have a Purpose, a central will that guides the Universe and in that Universe, mankind itself is a unique expression of that Will. We are, as a race, a people, a planet, very special - in that we serve the Divine, and thus, the Universe - and has a special destiny that awaits us among the stars.

For those people who believe in coincidence and chance, I don't denounce their makeshift religion, but I find it too convenient and simple a belief to wholeheartedly put blind faith in it without hard evidence.

__________________
Though we are not now
That strength that in old days
Moved Earth and Heaven;
That which we are, we are:
One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and flesh
But strong in will
To seek, to strive, to find
And not to yield.
-Alfred, Lord Tennyson

archetypal fool

Ok, I see what you're saying, but look at this:

I don't mean to pick at your religion, I'm just showing that we're both somewhat at an equal stance.

I don't want to turn this otherwise nice thread into an ugly religious rumble, but I'll risk it to state the following: I once shared your views, and then I was captivated by this hypothetical: If there were no humans, then would there be a God? Do bacteria and fish and worms believe in a God, even with their rudimentary (or non-existent) nervous systems? I don't believe they do, or have the capacity to, nor do I see any reason why they should. Therefor, the concept of a God or a destiny is found solely in us humans, and if we didn't exist, there would be no God. If there is no God, then what's the alternative view of the universe?

Answering that last question is what brought me to my views on humanity, life, religion, and the universe as a whole. In no way am I claiming that my views are absolutely true, but...You know what I mean. We're all reasonable here .

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

asaris

I think the hard part is that it's hard to deny that, in some sense, we *are* special. It might just be our own ignorance, but as far as we know, we are the only beings in this universe who reason, who love, who act according to abstract principles, or for whom the concept of 'technology' even exists. So, those who *emphasize* our specialness, when they are opposed by people who deny that we are special in any sense, feel easily the right to scoff.

On the other hand, it's pretty clear that our specialness isn't special. On the one hand, we are the zoon logikon, the beings that reason. But we're also small mammals on an unremarkable planet orbiting an unremarkable sun. That's why I want to draw the distinction between recognizing the ways in which we are, apparently, special, and emphasizing that uniqueness. We are in some way special, but we need to recognize our place in the larger whole.

To paraphrase Kant, there are two things, the contemplation of which ought to 'put us in our place.' That is, the starry heavens above and the moral law within.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Taltos

I know. That was kind of the point.
Cool that we're on the same page, I guess. (Different books, mind you...)

By the Goddess, everybody's got to be so PC these days. Look, as serious moral issues go, this is about the most lighthearted of topics we can have. I don't think we have to be so serious in our approach as to be apologizing with every other line whenever we want to put forward an idea, maybe, if its okay, not to offend everyone, we're all happy... you know? You can rest assure that, I, for one, am not going to be offended by anything you say on this topic. I also know that nothing I say is going to change anyone's mind, and I'm not trying to. So let's just be free to share and speak our minds...

LOL. See, and I would put forward the hypothetical supposition that humans exist because there is a God / Goddess / Animal Totem / Spiritual Messiah Figure Ascended To A Higher Plane. Further, the very idea, that so many people (and only people, as you point out) can and will believe in a God is itself fairly miraculous...

If there is no God, there is likely no cosmic destiny or specialness. If there is no cosmic destiny or specialness there is likely no God. There is evidence of this all around us, every day.

If there is a God, then there is likely a cosmic destiny or specialness. If there is a cosmic destiny or specialness, there is likely a God. There is evidence of this all around us, every day.

See the circular reasoning spins both ways, my friend...

Heh. I won't jump for that bait.

__________________
Though we are not now
That strength that in old days
Moved Earth and Heaven;
That which we are, we are:
One equal temper of heroic hearts
Made weak by time and flesh
But strong in will
To seek, to strive, to find
And not to yield.
-Alfred, Lord Tennyson

archetypal fool

I wasn't trying to be PC. I can't stand PC . Through the course of these discussions, they always end up as battles between atheists and theists. It doesn't bother me, it's just pointless; the same arguments get pushed around every time and nothing is accomplished. No-one is converted to anything. If I've learned anything from the internet, it's that mere words won't change people.

And the only way to experimentally prove anything in regards to your last point would be to completely isolate a group of people from any mention of a God, while simultaneously giving them scientific explanations for all the natural phenomena around them. If they don't developer a concept of a God under these circumstances, then it would prove that the entire reason for religion/God is to provide people with the "whys" and "hows". If this is the case, then God is fictional; a construct of our curiosity and our need to explain things.

Another way to put it is: If a child is raised as an atheist, with intelligent atheistic parents, then will he develop a concept of God? I very strongly doubt that he will.


I've already tried to show that relatively new development in science say that the universe is fundamentally random. I won't go into detail here, but you can look at this and this topic. If the universe is random, then there is no cosmic destiny, and so one of these arguments is disproved.

__________________
I have my own particular sorrows, loves, delights; and you have yours. But sorrow, gladness, yearning, hope, love, belong to all of us, in all times and in all places. Music is the only means whereby we feel these emotions in their universality. ~H.A. Overstreet

Plan9

Illusion is our purpose and purpose is our illusion.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Sticky

I am not sure if I am understanding the argument.
Are you saying that God only exists if people believe there is a God?

If there is no God that is one matter.
If there is a God, according to theists, doesn't God exist outside of humans. Judeo-Christian (I don't know much about others) theology believe that God created the universe before man.
Suppose this was the case, that there was a God, then the absense of human belief or knowledege in/of a God does not make God not exist.

Do you understand what I am trying to explain, I am not sure if I was clear.

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Sticky The Stickman

Shauk

every god argument can be stopped dead in its tracks with the "well then who created god" question.


I'm never satisfied by religious discussion, in fact, it's pretty much on my list of interesting things to discuss right next to watching paint dry.

which is to say, I spend my life living it, not questioning it.

Ourcrazymodern?

Yeah, right. Every man is my superior in that I may learn from him.
Please don't read anything sexist into the terminology.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT