Freedom is good - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pai mei · 02-15-2007, 04:32 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6360517.stm

Quote:

In this country, it's very free, you can do anything you want," she told the BBC's Newsnight programme. "You can smoke at 16, you can buy pot in the store next to the school. You can do what you like and because it's not illegal, it's not that interesting for us to provoke our parents with it.

I say let all things be free and people's obssesion with them will disappear whitin a month

ironman · 02-15-2007, 05:54 AM

This confirms what i've always said, USA always brags about its freedom, but from my own experience, ths US limits the freedoms of its citizens more than almost every country i've visited and lived in. Last time i was in Phoenix, AZ in a business trip, this guy told me that if I, as a latinamerican (i'm guatemalan and live in Guatemala) didn't envisioned to live over there in the great US. I told him, NO FREAKING WAY, not in a million years, i'm so used to so many freedoms that i have in my own country that i would never trade them for the "AMERICAN DREAM", damn! i'm living it right here, in my own country and i can do whatever i want, there's no big brother telling me what i can and can't do, how to raise my children, etc... I think that if some day i'd have to find another country to live in, i'd go to Switzerland, Denmark or Iceland, now we're talking freedom with a social connotation.

purelife · 06-10-2007, 09:57 AM

theres no freedom here.

we have too many laws (some are good for protections sake) but many of them are ridiculous!

did you know that there is no law requiring americans to pay income tax? but we all do anyway because we fear the IRS coming into our house with machine guns.

I'm serious - theres no law. Legally they can't tax us on our labor, but they do because our government wants to own us.

Also, May 2008 we will have national ID cards issued. Supposedly they will have GPS trackers in them, and we will be required to carry it with us at all times.

where i live in AZ, almost every single traffic light has a camera on it.

Check out the movie "America: Freedom to Fascism".

snowy · 06-11-2007, 09:25 AM

My father is Dutch, and as some others have observed on this board, our family is VERY Dutch in attitudes, despite my mother being an American.

Quote:

One of the strong points of the Dutch family, he says, is that it is very open and communicative. Relations are generally good between parents and children and they can talk about almost anything.

I would say this is absolutely true. My parents and I talk about everything from sex to drug use. Both my parents know that I smoke pot, and it's nothing to us to enjoy having beers together--my parents took me out on my 21st birthday for a tour of a major Seattle microbrewery (my dad and I drank roughly 60 oz. of beer in half an hour together

). My mom knew the day after I lost my virginity, and was surprised I hadn't had sex sooner (I would say I didn't because my parents DID talk about it and encouraged me to make smart decisions regarding my sexuality). They even let me go to a rave in high school--I was the only person in my school who probably never had to sneak out. All I had to do was ask, and I also knew I could call home at any time and Mom or Dad would come get me, wherever I was. I had no curfew, because I would just let them know what I was up to, and if I was going to be late, I would let them know. The only time I ever did have a curfew was the first summer after I had started college, and that was just because Dad had to drive to work in the morning, and so he wanted the car in the driveway by a certain time.

Overall, I think my parents did an excellent job of raising me, and I want to do the same by my children. Already, as a nanny, I try to encourage open communication between myself and the children, and fortunately I work for people with very progressive attitudes. I don't think I could work in a more conservative situation.

Some anecdotal evidence regarding rebellion: I lost my virginity at 19. By comparison, my two most conservative Christian friends, raised by very right-wing Americans, lost theirs at 15 and 17 respectively. The first girl also has three children now--the first at 16, the second at 18, and the third at 20. The second girl has two children--the first at 19 and the second at 23. I know from their conversations with me in the past that sex for them was something dangerous and risky, and a way of acting out. I had no such need. This is how my family reacts to sex: My mother got me on birth control at 17, and when we went to the doctor for my exam, the doctor gave me the opportunity to speak with her without my mother present, but I didn't have anything to tell her--there is literally nothing I am not comfortable telling my mother.

In fact, once I tried to rebel by telling her I was going to get my nose pierced.

She responded by saying she knew a piercer and she would make an appointment for me, and we could go together.

My nose is still not pierced.

Jenny Hatch · 07-06-2007, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pai mei

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6360517.stm

I say let all things be free and people's obssesion with them will disappear whitin a month

I totally agree, the war on drugs is such a farce. Lets deal with the real criminals in society!

Jenny

Cynthetiq · 07-06-2007, 07:30 PM

normally we ask that if you are posting a link, to copy the article so that people can read it here and discuss it without having to leave TFP.

Quote:

Full UN report in PDF

Why are Dutch children so happy?
By Kathryn Westcott
BBC News website

Dutch children have been rated the most fortunate children in Europe. Their parents go out of their way to please them, and teachers expect less of them than some of their European counterparts.

The Netherlands has come top of a league table for child well-being across 21 industrialised countries.
The study by the UN children's organisation, Unicef, looked at relative poverty, educational and health standards, sexual behaviour and the children's relationship with friends and parents.

"The Netherlands has always been a very child-centred society," says Paul Vangeert, professor of developmental psychology at the University of Groningen. "In particular, there is a lot of focus on young children."

He says he is not surprised by the report. "On the one hand you have objective indicators in the report like health, income and education. The Netherlands is a very rich country. On the other hand, and perhaps more importantly, are the subjective indicators, young people's own subjective sense of well-being."

CHILD WELL-BEING TABLE
1. Netherlands
2. Sweden
3. Denmark
4. Finland
5. Spain
6. Switzerland
7. Norway
8. Italy
9. Republic of Ireland
10. Belgium
11. Germany
12. Canada
13. Greece
14. Poland
15. Czech Republic
16. France
17. Portugal
18. Austria
19. Hungary
20. United States
21. United Kingdom
Source: Unicef

Much of this, he says, comes from the relationship that Dutch parents have with their children. And, from the fact that less pressure is put on them at school.
"If you take the percentage of young mothers in the labour force, it's not very high in comparison to comparable countries," Mr Vangeert told the BBC News Website. "There is a strong tendency for mothers to raise children or take a long time off work after children are born."

He says children are used to a "highly protective, highly positive caring environment."

Children rule

One of the strong points of the Dutch family, he says, is that it is very open and communicative. Relations are generally good between parents and children and they can talk about almost anything.

But, he says, the downside is that children almost rule the family.

"It's almost a caricature that children are the ones that decide what happens within the family," says Mr Vangeert. "Their wishes become so strong that parents have to work very hard to give them what they want. Sometimes, there can be a lack of balance between the happiness of the child and that of the parent."

18-year-old Ysbrand, a student in Helmond near Eindhoven, says this picture matched his childhood. He says that his parents spent a lot of time with him when he was younger. His mother stayed at home while his father worked.
But, he said the contrast when you get to 18 can be something of a shock.

"Now I'm left to look after myself," he told the BBC News website. "My parents say that I need to care for myself and to be independent. It's hard. I don't have much money as a student and to go out is expensive. Beer, for example, is very expensive in the Netherlands."

He says that while he has been drinking and smoking for some time, his parents have never really seen it as a big issue.

"They've never liked it," he says. "But they realise that they were young once. They are just waiting for me to give it up in my own time."

HAVE YOUR SAY
The UK and the USA are too commercial and market driven
Kenneth Whyte, Oegstgeest, Netherlands

The Dutch are famous for their liberal attitudes towards drinks, drugs and sex.
"Because parents are more relaxed, the dynamics of the problems are less severe than in countries where they are seen as more of a serious issue," says Mr Vangeert.

Laura Vos, a 16-year-old schoolgirl from Amsterdam agrees.

"In this country, it's very free, you can do anything you want," she told the BBC's Newsnight programme. "You can smoke at 16, you can buy pot in the store next to the school. You can do what you like and because it's not illegal, it's not that interesting for us to provoke our parents with it."

Schoolfriend Michell Klimt told the BBC that she thought that teenagers in other countries had to deal with the type of peer pressure that her friends did not have to even consider.
"I think in England, for example, there is a lot of pressure on teenagers. There is something on MTV called Virgin Diaries. Girls of 16 and 17 worry because they are still virgins. It's like they have to have sex to be cool," she says.

"In Holland, it isn't that important - it doesn't matter to anyone."

Rutt Veenhoven, professor of social conditions for human happiness at Erasmus University in Rotterdam, says he was unsurprised by the report's findings.

"Small affluent countries such as the Netherlands and Denmark are very democratic and very free. There is also a very good education system. People can use that freedom and education to make the right choices," he says.

Selma el Maknouzi, a 16-year-old student from The Hague says young people in the Netherlands have a lot to look forward to.

"I'm very happy with the education here because it's at a very high level," she told the BBC News website. "Everybody has the chance and the opportunity to do whatever he or she wants to do. There are many jobs - everyone can work and there are opportunities to build a good career in later life."

Mr Veenhoven says that the general picture is pretty much in keeping with what he has seen in samples of the adult population. He says that typically in Western Europe countries like the Netherlands and Denmark score particularly well.

"And we know that happy adults raise happy children," he says.

Freedom is a state of mind.

Jenny Hatch · 07-18-2007, 05:37 PM

The Dutch also have some of the highest home birth rates in Europe.

FYI my DH served an LDS Mission in Holland in the late 70's. He is fluent in dutch and loves the culture and the people. We would love to go back at some point and see some of the friends that he made while in Holland for his two year mormon mission.

Jenny

PS They are also the tallest....

CBS NEWS

(AP) Most of us are taller than our parents, who probably are taller than their parents. But in the Netherlands, the generational progression has reached new heights.

In the last 150 years, the Dutch have become the tallest people on Earth _ and experts say they're still getting bigger. It is a tale of a nation's health and wealth.

Prosperity propelled the collective growth spurt that began in the mid-1800s and was only interrupted during the harsh years of the Nazi occupation in the 1940s _ when average heights actually declined.

With their protein-rich diet and a national health service that pampers infants, the Dutch are standing taller than ever. The average Dutchman stands just over 6 feet, while women average nearly 5-foot-7.

krwlz · 07-19-2007, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purelife

theres no freedom here.

did you know that there is no law requiring americans to pay income tax? but we all do anyway because we fear the IRS coming into our house with machine guns.

Really!? Then how do they get away with it? I mean, there must be a law somewhere, to some effect, that enforces taxes.

Maybe there's a law for the employers about it.

ngdawg · 07-19-2007, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by purelife

theres no freedom here.

we have too many laws (some are good for protections sake) but many of them are ridiculous!

did you know that there is no law requiring americans to pay income tax? but we all do anyway because we fear the IRS coming into our house with machine guns.

I'm serious - theres no law. Legally they can't tax us on our labor, but they do because our government wants to own us.

Not true. The 16th amendment states: The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.
Income tax law is written into the United States Code: Federal statutes enacted by Congress and signed by the President (or passed over the President's veto) are compiled into the United States Code (U.S.C.). The U.S. Code, organized by topics into a series of titles, numbered from 1 (General Provisions) through 50 (War and National Defense) , contains nearly all statutes of general effect at the time of its compilation. For more recent enactments one must turn to the uncompiled statutes in the form passed by Congress

Baraka_Guru · 07-19-2007, 07:49 PM

Wow, is it possible that the U.S. is moving in the direct opposite direction from The Netherlands in regards to every aspect mentioned in this article?

ngdawg · 07-19-2007, 08:04 PM

We've always had a 'puritanical' underlayment that's really hard to shake.
They also can smoke weed and have gas at over $8 a gallon-their cost of living is very high. It's all a trade-off. I don't see me moving there in this lifetime.

Baraka_Guru · 07-21-2007, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

They also can smoke weed and have gas at over $8 a gallon-their cost of living is very high. It's all a trade-off. I don't see me moving there in this lifetime.

Apparently, it doesn't cost any more to live in the Netherlands than it does New York City.

And France has been ranked as the best country to live in, in terms of quality of life, despite being ranked 4th in terms of cost of living. I guess in many cases you get what you pay for.

Quote:

The most expensive countries in the world

U.S = 100 (see source)
1. Japan (138)
2. Norway (123)
3. Denmark (116)
4. France (116)
5. Hong Kong (113)
6. Switzerland (109)
7. United Kingdom (109)
8. Iceland (106)
9. Austria (104)
10. Finland (103)
11. Netherlands (100)
12. Sweden (99)
13. Singapore (98)
14. South Korea (97)
15. Germany (95)
16. Ireland (94)
17. Australia (93)
18. Belgium (93)
19. Russia (92)
20. China (90)
Source: This cost of living index is compiled by the Economist Intelligence Unit (www.economist.com) for use by companies in determining expatriate compensation: it is a comparison of maintaining a typical international lifestyle in the country rather than a comparison of the purchasing power of a citizen in the country. The index is based on typical urban prices an international executive and family will face abroad. The prices are for products of international comparable quality found in a supermarket or department store. Prices found in local markets and bazaars are generally not used. New York City prices are used as the base, so United States equals 100.

ngdawg · 07-21-2007, 02:32 PM

I can only go anecdotly as I have friends from the Netherlands and friends who went to visit them. Their wages are basically equal or slightly higher, but expenses are higher; gas is/was about $8 a gallon(so they walk for miles to go run errands instead of drive), buying anything American can cost almost twice as much there as it would here; in fact, when they want something from the US, they have it shipped to the other friend here who then sends it there because shipping costs more than the item. Groceries are pretty expensive as well, from what they've said.
I don't doubt the source, but I question their math.

abaya · 07-21-2007, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I can only go anecdotly as I have friends from the Netherlands and friends who went to visit them. Their wages are basically equal or slightly higher, but expenses are higher; gas is/was about $8 a gallon(so they walk for miles to go run errands instead of drive), buying anything American can cost almost twice as much there as it would here; in fact, when they want something from the US, they have it shipped to the other friend here who then sends it there because shipping costs more than the item. Groceries are pretty expensive as well, from what they've said.

This applies to Iceland as well, every word of it. Things tend to cost at least twice as much as the US, if not three or four times more. Income tax is around 40% and sales tax is around 25% for everything. A pound of skinless, boneless chicken breast costs $13 (on SALE!), etc. Salaries are definitely higher, and free health care and education to the PhD/MD level if desired, are some of the perks... but we still see immigrants and the elderly rummaging through garbage cans in broad daylight, looking for cans and bottles that will get them about 15 cents each at the recycling center. Pros and cons, as with everything.

Baraka_Guru · 07-21-2007, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

I can only go anecdotly as I have friends from the Netherlands and friends who went to visit them. Their wages are basically equal or slightly higher, but expenses are higher; gas is/was about $8 a gallon(so they walk for miles to go run errands instead of drive), buying anything American can cost almost twice as much there as it would here; in fact, when they want something from the US, they have it shipped to the other friend here who then sends it there because shipping costs more than the item. Groceries are pretty expensive as well, from what they've said.
I don't doubt the source, but I question their math.

Buying American products while in Europe is expensive, but so is buying European products while in America. It costs a lot of money to ship things.

Gas in Europe is generally expensive, but also realize that in many European cities, there isn't as much reliance on cars as in some North American cities. Also, Europeans tend to use more fuel-efficient cars. While gas prices in the Netherlands tends to be highest, many European countries are currently paying around US$7.00/gallon.

Date July 9, 2007:

Cost per gallon
Netherlands : US$7.76
UK: US$7.33
US: US$3.18
(Taxes incl.)

Yes, it is expensive living in the Netherlands, but it looks especially so when you compare it to living in America. The two economies are out of whack, and much of that has to do with demographics and geography. But it is cheaper to live in Amsterdam than it is to live in Chicago, Zurich, London, and many more.

The thing is, people should do what they can to live within their means. Your friends walk a lot instead of taking their car. So do I... I walk 2.5 miles every day just going to and from work. I walk over a mile to the shopping area by my place to get books, go to movies, etc. I do this because it makes sense. There are many people who'd take their car if a walk would be over 15 minutes, which is a bit much I think. In France, many people would walk up to half an hour before thinking about taking a car. Walking is good for you and tends to make people happy. Both the Netherlands and France are high up on the list of quality of life.

Also, how many people in America live within their own means? It certainly is cheaper to live in America, but how would you explain the grossly increasing household debt loads and this:

CDC: Antidepressants most prescribed drugs in U.S.

...I thought heart disease was a bigger problem.

But to refer to the OP, the Netherlands as a package has a really high quality of life (no pun intended). There are many factors contributing to this. Despite the costs, people must be doing something right. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with not being so uptight about things.

abaya · 07-23-2007, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

Gas in Europe is generally expensive, but also realize that in many European cities, there isn't as much reliance on cars as in some North American cities. Also, Europeans tend to use more fuel-efficient cars....

Also, how many people in America live within their own means? It certainly is cheaper to live in America, but how would you explain the grossly increasing household debt loads

Well, it's funny you say this, because Iceland really must be a mini-America instead of a corner of Europe. People LOVE to drive here, especially when the weather gets bad... Reykjavik has the highest car-per-capita rate in the WORLD, even with gas between $7 to $8 a gallon. And, the most popular cars these days are SUV's, which people justify because they need them for the winter and rough roads in the interior (true, but I'd be willing to bet that most people never actually leave the city, but just talk about it). My uncle has a Hummer. A HUMMER, in suburban Iceland!!

Depression meds are also highly prescribed here, and drinking Coke 3 meals a day has led to a very noticeable obesity problem with many Icelanders (seen during every trip to the neighborhood pool). And most of the country lives off their credit cards or loans... it's one of the richest countries in the world, but also one of the most consumerist. People love fads here, owning the latest gadget... I see more iPods here than I ever did on a university campus (and that's saying something).

So, I'd have to conclude that while Iceland (officially considered European, within the EEA) is definitely a social democracy (and we pay dearly for that with our taxes) and many things are free and/or more laid-back... it's also a heck of a lot more "American" than many people would like to admit.

Cynthetiq · 07-23-2007, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

The thing is, people should do what they can to live within their means. Your friends walk a lot instead of taking their car. So do I... I walk 2.5 miles every day just going to and from work. I walk over a mile to the shopping area by my place to get books, go to movies, etc. I do this because it makes sense. There are many people who'd take their car if a walk would be over 15 minutes, which is a bit much I think. In France, many people would walk up to half an hour before thinking about taking a car. Walking is good for you and tends to make people happy. Both the Netherlands and France are high up on the list of quality of life.

Also, how many people in America live within their own means? It certainly is cheaper to live in America, but how would you explain the grossly increasing household debt loads and this:

CDC: Antidepressants most prescribed drugs in U.S.

...I thought heart disease was a bigger problem.

But to refer to the OP, the Netherlands as a package has a really high quality of life (no pun intended). There are many factors contributing to this. Despite the costs, people must be doing something right. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with not being so uptight about things.

Living outside one's means is not endemic to the United States of America. UK has many residents who live above their means and carry high debt loads, as do Icelanders. Any economy that is doing well has loose credit and people tend to take advantage of it.

I recall being in the UK a few years back and the same debt counselling advertisements I see in the US were also played during the day time there. Same went for Spain. If people were living within their means would they have companies like this advertising on Tv?

People do what the do, not any reason because it makes sense. They do it because they want to. I have a car in Manhattan. I don't drive it daily because as you said it doesn't make sense when I have walking and public transportation options. I know a number of people who do because they want to.

In each country that Skogafoss and I travel in we go to the supermarket as one of our outings. We love to comparision shop the cost of living. I know that from previous expatriation, you live like the locals to have expenses like the locals. It means to buy locally/regionally made and sold, soap, toothpaste, detergent, shampoo. It means buying regional snackfoods instead of Doritos, Keebler Elves, Peppridge Farms. There are lots of times I in awe as to how much things like beef, lettuce, bread, milk, cheese cost.

abaya · 07-23-2007, 05:25 AM

...btw, how is this related to parenting?

Cynthetiq · 07-23-2007, 05:30 AM

I dunno, I guess because the "freedom" from Netherland comes at a price? I can say that when I tell people how much it costs to live here, they balk at how much things cost.

Would you pay $250,000 for a parking space? of $14 for a burger, fries, and salad?

Heck I hated converting Kronur for a hotdogs and fries. $9 for 2 dogs and fries???? (of course I love them and gladly pay that...)

ngdawg · 07-23-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

...btw, how is this related to parenting?

Parenting is a high-cost job from day one. Some countries' leaders realize this and take strides to help families along, be it nationally-sponsored daycare, liberal parental leave options, etc. The Scandinavian countries are ahead of us in that regard, although I'm not sure taking their lead would be feasible in the US.
But when you realize that families cost and to keep one's head above water, one has to make concessions, it stands to reason that some level of contentment within families might be lost. When worries are relieved, contentment increases and the US, as a generalized whole, is a worrisome country.

Plan9 · 07-25-2007, 03:38 AM

Reminds me of that old Phil Collins song, "Land of Confusion."

I can't help but think Canada has it better than us. Or Europe.

Or South Africa.

I mean... we're rich.

But money isn't everything.

02-15-2007, 05:54 AM	#2 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	This confirms what i've always said, USA always brags about its freedom, but from my own experience, ths US limits the freedoms of its citizens more than almost every country i've visited and lived in. Last time i was in Phoenix, AZ in a business trip, this guy told me that if I, as a latinamerican (i'm guatemalan and live in Guatemala) didn't envisioned to live over there in the great US. I told him, NO FREAKING WAY, not in a million years, i'm so used to so many freedoms that i have in my own country that i would never trade them for the "AMERICAN DREAM", damn! i'm living it right here, in my own country and i can do whatever i want, there's no big brother telling me what i can and can't do, how to raise my children, etc... I think that if some day i'd have to find another country to live in, i'd go to Switzerland, Denmark or Iceland, now we're talking freedom with a social connotation. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

06-10-2007, 09:57 AM	#3 (permalink)
purelife Upright	theres no freedom here. we have too many laws (some are good for protections sake) but many of them are ridiculous! did you know that there is no law requiring americans to pay income tax? but we all do anyway because we fear the IRS coming into our house with machine guns. I'm serious - theres no law. Legally they can't tax us on our labor, but they do because our government wants to own us. Also, May 2008 we will have national ID cards issued. Supposedly they will have GPS trackers in them, and we will be required to carry it with us at all times. where i live in AZ, almost every single traffic light has a camera on it. Check out the movie "America: Freedom to Fascism". __________________ "the good must inspire themselves by the ending of evil" - unblinded

07-18-2007, 05:37 PM	#7 (permalink)
Jenny Hatch Upright	The Dutch also have some of the highest home birth rates in Europe. FYI my DH served an LDS Mission in Holland in the late 70's. He is fluent in dutch and loves the culture and the people. We would love to go back at some point and see some of the friends that he made while in Holland for his two year mormon mission. Jenny PS They are also the tallest.... CBS NEWS (AP) Most of us are taller than our parents, who probably are taller than their parents. But in the Netherlands, the generational progression has reached new heights. In the last 150 years, the Dutch have become the tallest people on Earth _ and experts say they're still getting bigger. It is a tale of a nation's health and wealth. Prosperity propelled the collective growth spurt that began in the mid-1800s and was only interrupted during the harsh years of the Nazi occupation in the 1940s _ when average heights actually declined. With their protein-rich diet and a national health service that pampers infants, the Dutch are standing taller than ever. The average Dutchman stands just over 6 feet, while women average nearly 5-foot-7. Last edited by Jenny Hatch; 07-18-2007 at 05:42 PM..

07-19-2007, 07:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Wow, is it possible that the U.S. is moving in the direct opposite direction from The Netherlands in regards to every aspect mentioned in this article? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

07-19-2007, 08:04 PM	#11 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	We've always had a 'puritanical' underlayment that's really hard to shake. They also can smoke weed and have gas at over $8 a gallon-their cost of living is very high. It's all a trade-off. I don't see me moving there in this lifetime. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

07-21-2007, 02:32 PM	#13 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	I can only go anecdotly as I have friends from the Netherlands and friends who went to visit them. Their wages are basically equal or slightly higher, but expenses are higher; gas is/was about $8 a gallon(so they walk for miles to go run errands instead of drive), buying anything American can cost almost twice as much there as it would here; in fact, when they want something from the US, they have it shipped to the other friend here who then sends it there because shipping costs more than the item. Groceries are pretty expensive as well, from what they've said. I don't doubt the source, but I question their math. __________________ Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

07-23-2007, 05:25 AM	#18 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	...btw, how is this related to parenting? __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

07-23-2007, 05:30 AM	#19 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I dunno, I guess because the "freedom" from Netherland comes at a price? I can say that when I tell people how much it costs to live here, they balk at how much things cost. Would you pay $250,000 for a parking space? of $14 for a burger, fries, and salad? Heck I hated converting Kronur for a hotdogs and fries. $9 for 2 dogs and fries???? (of course I love them and gladly pay that...) __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

07-25-2007, 03:38 AM	#21 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Reminds me of that old Phil Collins song, "Land of Confusion." I can't help but think Canada has it better than us. Or Europe. Or South Africa. I mean... we're rich. But money isn't everything. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."