samcol

Vanity fair recently did an article on the NORAD tapes. To me this shows undoubtably that the people who ordered the 'drills' and their bosses are the number #1 suspects in the 9/11 attacks. Clearly the confusion from the drills and the stand downs orders fom the higher ups aare the reason why the planes hit the buildings instead of being shot down.

http://www.vanityfair.com/features/general/060801fege01

and...
Emphasis on EXERCISE. People knew about the drills that his proves they did happen.

I cannot come to any other conclusion regarding the 9/11 drills. The 9/11 commission ignoring these drills and the recent NORAD tapes imo proves they were the reason for the confusion on 9/11 and the people who held the drills need to be held responsible at the least, and most likely are actually guilty and knew what was going to happen that day. There's no other reason for the commission cover-up of these drills.

Ustwo

Yea cause standard protocol for a hijacked plane was to shoot it down

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Willravel

Or maybe to scramble alert fighters? Yeah, best laid plans....

Ustwo

Selective quoting for the win. Lets see the rest of them shall we?

At NO point does the training exercise come into play here, in fact this shows just the opposite, but if you guys wanna see it for anything besides what it so obviously is, be my guest. Fighters WERE scrambled, but they could not find the aircraft until it was too late. Note they had 10 minutes to do this, 10, and you somehow assume they had super magic jetfighter powers that would have stopped it? Common sense needs to be applied.

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

samcol

Selective quoting? Clearly this guy is refering the the drills that day. I mean what else could he be talking about?

Plus theres the question at the beginning regarding real-world or exercise, unless you are implying that the drills never took place or something. I can't tell if it's that or if you are just calmly acknowleding there were drills (specifially planes into buildings CIA exercises) as if one should expect drills of the same event going on during 9/11.

Ustwo

Yes and it had no effect on what THEY were doing. All that proves is they had drills going, but they knew the hijacking was NOT a drill and acted to their best ability. I don't see why thats hard to understand, they knew from the moment it happened it was not a drill, so how did the drill confuse them?

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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stevo

Because there were drills about hijacked planes on 9/11 and then the real thing happened at that exact time PROOVES it was a conspiracy. Don't you know anything ustwo?

__________________
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samcol

The sarcasm really doesn't refute anything other than show you have a difficult time facing the facts.

First of all I'm not saying this fact alone proves it was an inside job, but it's a significant point that in addition to dozens of others makes it extremely difficult to believe otherwise.

What do the drills mean in your opinion? You don't have a problem with the commission and administration totally ignoring this and saying 9/11 was above all a failure of imagination? Can you really say the drills and the 9/11 attacks were totally seperate events and keep a straight face?

As an example, it would be like the government running a mock assassination drill during the Kennedy assasination or Reagan shooting, at the exact place and exact time, have it reported casually in the news, an investigation is then conducted and this fact is totally ignored. Not only that, they would repeat ad nauseum that they had never heard their was any possibility of such a thing. Police work 101 would say that the people who ran the drills would be a prime suspect. If it looks like shit and smells like shit, it probably is.

I mean, you have got to be kididng me. How can you not at least suspect something and ask for a little bit further investigation instead of a blatent cover up. How can you contintue such unwaivering support of a government who is: A. This incompentent, or B. This evil? These are the people you trust to fight our war on terror. That is one scary thought.

Seaver

Um... I dont know about you but I would be suspicious if there were multiple drills before the hijacking. That would imply that they knew about something and were preparing.

If a group of employees from a competing company practice softball for 3 months, and then you suddenly hear about an "impromptu" inter-company softball game... that would imply that they knew ahead of time of the event.

If it was the day of, that is more likely either given 2 minutes heads up or simply a coincidence.

Cynthetiq

Scholars for Truth: http://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/

NYtimes article
August 6, 2006
9 / 11 Conspiracy Theories Persist, Thrive
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Filed at 11:30 p.m. ET

Kevin Barrett believes the U.S government might have destroyed the World Trade Center. Steven Jones is researching what he calls evidence that the twin towers were brought down by explosives detonated inside them, not by hijacked airliners.

These men aren't uneducated junk scientists: Barrett will teach a class on Islam at the University of Wisconsin this fall, over the protests of more than 60 state legislators. Jones is a tenured physicist at Brigham Young University whose mainstream academic job has made him a hero to conspiracy theorists.

Five years after the terrorist attacks, a community that believes widely discredited ideas about what happened on Sept. 11, 2001, persists and even thrives. Members trade their ideas on the Internet and in self-published papers and in books. About 500 of them attended a recent conference in Chicago.

The movement claims to be drawing fresh energy and credibility from a recently formed group called Scholars for 9/11 Truth.

The organization says publicity over Barrett's case has helped boost membership to about 75 academics. They are a tiny minority of the 1 million part- and full-time faculty nationwide, and some have no university affiliation. Most aren't experts in relevant fields. But some are well educated, with degrees from elite universities such as Princeton and Stanford and jobs at schools including Rice, Indiana and the University of Texas.

''Things are happening,'' said co-founder James Fetzer, a retired philosophy professor at the University of Minnesota Duluth, who maintains, among other claims, that some of the hijackers are still alive. ''We're going to continue to do this. Our role is to establish what really happened on 9/11.''

What really happened, the national Sept. 11 Commission concluded after 1,200 interviews, was that hijackers crashed planes into the twin towers. The National Institute of Standards and Technology, a government agency, filed 10,000 pages of reports that found fires caused by the crashing planes were more than sufficient to collapse the buildings.

The scholars' group rejects those conclusions. Their Web site contends the government has been dishonest. It adds: the ''World Trade Center was almost certainly brought down by controlled demolitions'' and ''the government not only permitted 9/11 to occur but may even have orchestrated these events to facilitate its political agenda.''

The standards and technology institute, and many mainstream scientists, won't debate conspiracy theorists, saying they don't want to lend them unwarranted credibility.

But some worry the academic background of the group could do that anyway.

Members of the conspiracy community ''practically worship the ground (Jones) walks on because he's seen as a scientist who is preaching to their side,'' said FR Greening, a Canadian chemist who has written several papers rebutting the science used by Sept. 11 conspiracy theorists. ''It's science, but it's politically motivated. It's science with an ax to grind, and therefore it's not really science.''

Faculty can express any opinion outside the classroom, said Roger Bowen, general secretary of the American Association of University Professors. However, ''with academic freedom comes academic responsibility. And that requires them to teach the truth of their discipline, and the truth does not include conspiracy theories, or flat Earth theories, or Holocaust denial theories.''

Members of the group don't consider themselves extremists. They simply believe the government's investigation was inadequate, and maintain that questioning widely held assumptions has been part of the job of scholars for centuries.

''Tenure gives you a secure position where you can engage in controversial issues,'' Fetzer said. ''That's what you should be doing.''

But when asked what did happen in 2001, members often step outside the rigorous, data-based culture of the academy and defer to their own instincts.

Daniel Orr, a Princeton Ph.D. and widely published retired economics chair at the University of Illinois, said he knew instantly from watching the towers fall that they had been blown apart by explosives. He was reminded of watching an old housing project being destroyed in St. Louis.

David Gabbard, an East Carolina education professor, acknowledges this isn't his field, but says ''I'm smart enough to know ... that fire from airplanes can't melt steel.''

When they do cite evidence, critics such as Greening contend it's junk science from fellow conspiracy theorists, dressed up in the language and format of real research to give it a sense of credibility.

Jones focuses on the relatively narrow question of whether molten metal present at the World Trade Center site after the attacks is evidence that a high-temperature incendiary called thermite, which can be used to weld or cut metal, was involved in the towers' destruction. He concludes thermite was present, throwing the government's entire explanation into question and suggesting someone might have used explosives to bring down the towers.

''I have not run into many who have read my paper and said it's just all hogwash,'' Jones said.

Judy Wood, until recently an assistant professor of mechanical engineering at Clemson University, has been cited by conspiracy theorists for her arguments the buildings could not have collapsed as quickly as they did unless explosives were used.

''If the U.S. government is lying about how the buildings came down, anything else they say cannot be believed,'' she said. ''So why would they want to tell us an incorrect story if they weren't part of it?''

In fact, say Greening and other experts, the molten metal Jones cites was most likely aluminum from the planes, and any number of explanations are more likely than thermite.

And the National Institute of Standards and Technology's report describes how the buildings collapsed from the inside in a chain reaction once the floors began falling.

''We respect the opinions of others, but we just didn't see any evidence of what people are claiming,'' institute spokesman Michael Newman said.

Wisconsin officials say they do not endorse the views of Barrett, an adjunct, but after investigating concluded he would handle the material responsibly in the classroom.

That didn't mollify many state legislators.

''The general public from Maine to Oregon knows why the trade towers went down,'' said state Rep. Stephen Nass, a Republican. ''It's not a matter of unpopular ideas; it's a matter of quality education and giving students their money's worth in the classroom.''

In a July 20 letter obtained by The Associated Press in an open records request, Wisconsin Provost Patrick Farrell warned Barrett to tone down his publicity seeking, and said he would reconsider allowing Barrett to teach if he continued to identify himself with the university in his political messages.

BYU's physics department and engineering school have issued statements distancing themselves from Jones' work, but he says they have not interfered.

At Clemson, Wood did not receive tenure last year, but her former department chair, Imtiaz ul Haque, denies her accusation that it was at least partly because of her Sept. 11 views.

''Are you blackballed for delving into this topic? Oh yes,'' Wood said. ''And that is why there are so few who do. Most contracts have something to do with some government research lab. So what would that do to you? The consequences are too great for a career. But I made the choice that truth was more important.''

''If we're in higher education to be trying to encourage critical thinking,'' Wood says, ''why would we say 'believe this because everybody else does?'''

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fastom

I'm not sure those Norad tapes aren't edited or falsified, even listening to what they do say is damning enough. They seem to be quite unprepared and bumbling. Their planes seem pretty slow unless the pilots had to stop for gas along the way.

I'm not sure how many of you melt aluminum, but to get it glowing orange it is far hotter than just a liquid state, if it were to flow out it'd be gone before ever reaching those temperatures. There is a LOT more heat than a simple combustibles fire causing that. Pressurized oxygen is what it takes me to do that, i can't get a propane torch to do it. I don't have access to any Thermite. Were oxygen tanks stored in that area in the WTC?

Amazing series of coincidences!

Seaver

Well with a propane torch you also aren't using JP7 jet fuel. You also dont have enough of it to fly halfway accross the world, which the international flights would be carrying.

And as we've proven time and time again, by scientists and engineers almost unanimously worldwide that you don't need to get the steel red hot, you dont need to melt the steel to get it to fail. I wont repost, you can look it up if you want to.

fastom

Nothing to do with the melting steel, i'm talking that "stuff" flowing out of the side of the tower again. It's shown glowing orange and dripping off silver further down... ie: aluminum, lead, solder, etc.

A propane torch doesn't matter if you have a pocket lighter sized tank or the Exxon Valdex, the flame only burns so hot regardless of volume. Any fuel fire does that. Bigger volume will burn bigger and longer creating more residual heat... but it still won't puddle aluminum like that.

edit: International flights? And here i thought LA was still considered to be a US territory.

stevo

i did farted.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

reaper66

9/11 was an inside job

Our government orchestrated the 9/11 attacks in order to establish what Goerge H. W. Bush once reffered to as a New World Order

Here is a collection of videos, video clips, and websites that prove that 9/11 was an inside job

The people running our government are openly setting up a prison grid in the U.S. They want a cashless society, National ID Cards for everyone, and Implantable Microchips, In their own documents they admit that they’re plan is to start world war three and have a global government rise from the ashes. The time to resist this is now. If we don’t we’re going to become total slaves


Free online Videos

Terrorstorm
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=terrorstorm

Martial Law 911 Rise of the Police State
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=martial+law

911 The Road to Tyranny
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...985&q=911+road

Masters of Terror
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ters+of+Terror

Loose Change 2nd Edition
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...q=loose+change

Order of Death
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Order+of+Death

Dark Secrets Inside Bohemian Grove
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Bohemian+Grove

American Dictators
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ican+Dictators

Matrix of Evil
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...Matrix+of+Evil

Comprehensive Annual Financial Reports Exposed
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...eports+Exposed

Police State 3 Total Enslavement
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...al+Enslavement

Police State 2 Total Enslavement
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...A+The+Takeover

Police State 2000
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...ice+State+2000

America Destroyed by Design
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...oyed+By+Design


Video clips

9/11

New York firemen discuss collapse of WTC
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...TC+collapseWTC

WTC Collapse
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmBL2...WTC%20collapse

Larry Silverstein admitting that he pulled building 7. Keep in mind it takes days to wire a building for demolition. But magically they were able to do it on 9/11 in just a few hours.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7he_...%20Silverstein

George W. Bush: Don’t tolerate 9/11 conspiracy theories
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stpEOngofS0

Analysis of the Bin Ladin Confession Tape
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...din+confession

Lou Dobbs Calls for a new investigation into 9/11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahv3VdknyZ4

Alex Jones predicts 9/11 on his July 25, 2001 TV Show
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...s+predicts+911

Alex Jones interviews actor Charlie Sheen who believes that the official 9/11 story is a fraud.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...72852690653060


New World Order

George H W Bush New World Order
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a9Syi12RJo


North American Union

CNN North American Union
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxCeWQ9Ge38


War on Terror

The Daily Show Deconstructs Fed’s Miami Terrorists Hype
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8a4z9N3eYc

False Flag Operations
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDmzw-jHrck

False Flag Operations 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygmojLcPTkc


Iraq War

U.S. Government says that torture and warrentless searches are legal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-hWnXEy40s
Note: Whitehouse council John Hue has openly stated that it is ok to torture small children in front their parents, and in some cases sexually

Former CIA Analyst Ray McGovern confronts Donald Rumsfeild over the Iraq War
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyYlSSlSOXY

John Stewert: Donald Rumsfeld lies about WMDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrXaFluPY4A

Rumsfeld lies again about WMDs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Elr-TtqVB8

Donald Rumsfeld shaking hands with Saddam Husan back in the mid 1980s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTldYbqlJc8

U.S. Troops drive tank over car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPx-X_ldiG8

New Iraq massacre tape emerges
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zM7pzc6__zI

U.S. troops target Iraqi civilians in revenge attack
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42gjsGAjwyM

SBS Dateline documentary about the Abu Ghraib
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru0bxSqWMdo

Abu Ghraib – The True Story
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6kZ5rEJd38


Police State

The Daily Show- Living In A Police State
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6otbnLMDVM

Gun Confiscation in New Orleans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwlUqO6tRlU

Urban Warfare Drill Military Preparing for Martial Law
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71Jux68F_AQ

Martial Law Is Coming
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_9_5aBU33E


Big Brother

America: Freedom to Fascism preview
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...dom+to+Fascism

Bush/NSA spying on US Citizens: illegal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk5eWtAYno4

CNN NSA Spying
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6B7BrA7ww4

Scarborough Slams Government For Bank Records
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3J1K2oU8OA

Alex Jones: The implantable microchip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uVw5XSWbjA

CEO of applied digital interviewed about the verichip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daCmVSLYI5k


miscillanious

Colbert Roasts President Bush – 2006 Whitehouse Correspondence Dinner
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...574879&q=CSPAN


Websites

9/11 Truth Websites

http://www.911truth.org
http://www.911blogger.com
http://www.st911.org
http://www.911citizenswatch.org
http://www.ny911truth.org
http://www.justicefor911.org
http://www.911inquiry.org
http://www.sf911truth.org
http://www.vt911.org
http://www.septembereleventh.org
http://www.911forthetruth.com
http://www.911truthla.us
http://911research.wtc7.net
http://www.911research.com
http://www.911revisited.com
http://911review.com
http://www.911eyewitness.com
http://www.v911t.org
http://911readingroom.org
http://www.911busters.com
http://www.universalseed.org/main.asp
http://www.911truthseekers.org/modules/weblog
http://www.reopen911.org
http://9eleven.info
http://911source.org
http://www.911tv.org
http://www.truth911.net
http://www.wanttoknow.info/911information
http://www.truthmove.org/insight/911.html
http://physics911.net


Iraq War

http://dahrjamailiraq.com/weblog
http://iraqblogcount.blogspot.com
http://dahrjamailiraq.com/gallery/albums.php
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com
http://healingiraq.blogspot.com
http://afamilyinbaghdad.blogspot.com
http://iraqispirit.blogspot.com
http://blog.aliraqi.org


North American Union

http://www.spp.gov
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20060331.html
http://www.cfr.org/publication/8102
http://www.cfr.org/content/publicati...a_TF_final.pdf


Alternative news sites

http://www.infowars.com
http://www.infowars.net
http://www.prisonplanet.com
http://www.prisonplanet.tv
http://www.jonesreport.com
http://www.falseflagnews.com
http://www.tvnewslies.org
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com
http://www.rense.com
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info
http://www.propagandamatrix.com
http://www.capitolhillblue.com
http://www.therawstory.com
http://www.guerrillanews.com

stevo

but really its not bush who's in control. he's just a puppet for the reptiod leaders underground. He's a human-reptile hybrid (i.e. shapeshifter) as is the british royal family and the rothchilds. So don't blame bush, he's controlled by the reptiles from the dracon starsystem. But you are right on about everything else.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

samcol

Your last 3 posts in this thread have been nothing but sarcasm. Do you really think that does anything other than reinforce what I believe about 9/11 when most of the replys totally dodge the questions or ignore them all together?

I mean, most of us are sitting here talking about serious issues that really did happen, like my last post to you about drills on 9/11, and your next contribution to the thread is 'i did farted.'

Seaver

Here's an idea.. look up a group of ACTUAL engineers. Lets say... Popular Mechanics/Science. They did multiple articles how they have gone through computer simulations how it was a plane crash that made it crash that way. Popular Mechanics/Science or other scientific communities all agree it was a plane.

So you listed youtube... great. Sounds reputable right next to kid 12204 getting kicked in the balls.

Ustwo

Remember, if its on the internet it must be true!

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I've debunked the pop mech article twice. Third time's the charm?

Ustwo

You don't even think the planes that hit the WTC were the planes listed, based in part on grainy internet photos of things like third oddly placed engines. You, as far as I know, never answered how Bush, the illiminati, or the reptiloid overlords got all the people who would NEED to keep silent, silent over the issue of say a missing plane, verifiable passanger list etc. At one point you said you would get back to that concept of how some many people would be silent, but it seems we need to accept your version of the story, one where they are smart enough to pull this off yet dumb enough to not even use the proper aircraft, before you would get ot it.

Maybe I missed the post, if so please direct me.

You SAY you debunked, a reply is not a debunking, its a reply

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Actually the photos were in magazines and on TV before they were on the internet. The nice thing about computers is they allow you to pause and more closely inspect videos and photos. Where would you like me to get my photos from?

This is why most people ignore you, Ustwo. Not just in Paranoia, but in Politics aswell.
How long did it take to understand the effects of agent orange? Shoot, we still don't even know what happened to President Kennedy, and he was surrrounded by people and cameras. Honestly, I don't see this as "smart" or "dumb". It simply is. The fact that over 10 million people (out of 300 million) in the US alone believe that 9/11 was an inside job speaks to the quality of the initial job, and to the damage control following.
This is what I'm talking about. Read my posts. There are only 4 or so main 9/11 conspiracy threads on the whole of TFP, 1 in Politics and 3 in Paranoia. Here is one of the responses. That post was in this very thread.

stevo

"I farted" wasn't enough characters. Either way, whether I did or didn't fart is not the issue here. Bringing it up only serves to detract from the discussion at hand, which is that reptoid overlords are controlling the leaders of the world so they can usher in the new world order of one government, a cashless currency and a bunch of other stuff.

In order to believe that George Bush and Tony Blair and Karl Rove and the rest were actually behind 9/11 so they can push the NWO, you have to believe the rest of the conspiracy. It makes no sense unless you subscribe to the entire conspiracy. What does GWB gain from orchestrating 9/11 if he's not a part of the reptoids? Nothing but 8 years of shit that didn't need to be that hard. But if he really was behind it, its because the reptiods were pulling his strings.

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

samcol

Isn't it funny that the secretary of homeland security's cousin Benjamin Chertoff directed the whole debunking article? Another fair and balanced critique just like the Bush appointed 9/11 commission. It's not even worth going through the straw-man attack of pop mechanics yet again.

samcol

double post, please delete

fastom

There are so many red flags and almost nothing has been explained in a way that doesn't involve unlikely coincidences.

If you are actually objective and not trying to fit missing pieces in to make the official story work i don't see how it can be believed. Reptilians is silly, the perps are sort of human.

It's not a stretch to think the others involved in the plot were put on the planes. As for keeping it secret many people are too patriotic to believe the truth and if it was told would pass it off as a lie.

There must be a lot of people who know at least one aspect is not true. The airline staff who checked correct passenger lists , the rescue workers in the buildings, building designers, anybody with common sense.

Seaver

Show me the numbers and maybe I'd believe. Hell, large numbers in polls say they believe the earth is flat. Should this mean that satellites, the moon landing, space experiments, or any of the billions of world air/ship travel to be one big conspiracy?

Um.. yes it is. If you knew the government would fly a plane into the WTC... would you A) Run and tell every news team you could... or B) follow them onto the plane you have spent the last 6 months in preparation to fly into said towers.

Plus, I've yet to have one person explain how the demolitions could be placed right where the plane landed (amazing pilot abilities apparently)... and NOT be damaged and rendered useless by said explosion (or not pre-detonate).

I've yet to hear one person state how all those people, and apparently their plane, go missing with no one in 5 years somehow find out... or someone working on said base not come forward.

So only 1 out of 35 have common sense? I know it's rare but that's pushing it. Especially considering almost none of those people are actually structural engineers.

fastom

Yep, it takes a structural engineer to check passenger manifests. It's for the same reasons you need a policeman to help you cross the street.

So there weren't any Muslim names on the passenger lists... and yet the lists jive with the passengers. The numbers don't match either, on each plane.

No biggie, why worry.



Here's more, the plane hits at a rolled-to-the-side angle, the building has thick concrete floor slabs ... this is essential to the "pancaking" theory... that would be like hitting a sewer grate, what was expelled out the other side of the building? Remember they found an intact engine a few blocks away, does it really fit between floors? Maybe WTC workers were really tall and needed lots of headroom?

Seaver

Show me where the passenger manifests don't add up. And dont bother posting one of your conspiracy theory pages, show me actual evidence.

Cynthetiq

since I get to see them build skyscrapers out my window, I've watched them build about 5 of them....Interestingly enough, when they get the iron beams rolling in right, they go a floor a day!

Forces acting on buildings

an example of distance from floor to ceiling


Most buildings have FALSE ceilings, to accommodate HVAC, electrical, security cameras, CAT5e/6 wiring, cable, etc. There's LOTS of space, we're not talking CONVENTIONAL homes which have about 10ft ceilings, but commercial space where the actual space is almost 20 feet between floors. A bus can go through that particular picture...

__________________
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Infinite_Loser

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong articles, but aren't there studies which prove just the opposite?

I coulda' sworn that I read an article somewhere which proved that buildings don't pancake straight down when hit by an airplane at the angle it did.

Meh... I'm gonna' go see if I can find it.

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MSD

http://www.pratt-whitney.com/prod_comm_pw2000.asp
The inlet on the PW2000 is narrow enough that I could not stand up completely in the space in front of the blades. The housing adds no more than 3 or 4 feet, making the fully intact engine 10 to 11 feet tall. By "intact," I assume they meant that the mechanical components were still in one piece, since the hosuing is not secured, so although it is improbable, it is entirely possible that an intact engine detached (probably with huge chunks of wing attached) and went out the other side.

fastom

Here's a great site, but not to you naysayers...
http://911u.org/CoDR/DR215.html

If you diss this next one you owe these people an apology... it is not a conspiracy site, they have no reason to lie. It's simply union engineers telling of their ordeal. The truth they tell speaks volumes. The WTC parking garage was destroyed... what the.... how did that happen, did a plane and a subway car crash at the same time?

http://www.chiefengineer.org/article.cfm?seqnum1=1029

Seaver, a bit naive aren't we? Where do you think you are going to find unaltered passenger manifests at this late date except those sites? Do you think anybody else has a reason to keep them?
A few years ago it was all online at the airlines or airport sites, they can't keep them up forever. It was well documented, though each time showed different names and totals. Go to your library and dig up a copy of USA today from a day or two after the crash.

Seaver

Actually I'm not the naive one. The University of Texas just payed out millions upon millions of dollars simply to get to store the Nixon Watergate tapes. No one was injured, it did not lead to any turn in international policy, it did not spark a single war. Yet my university payed millions just to store it.

You dont think there would be many libraries that would drool at the chance to store just a carbon copy of these if they were true?

And they CAN keep them up forever, they don't because whatever manifests there were had been cleared up.

And yes.. 911 U does have a reason to lie. If there's no conspiracy, there's no reason for the existence. Therefore the "U." dies if the terrorists really were responsible.

So... please try again.

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

pan6467

You gotta just love the insanity, hypocrasy and irony of all this.

The conspiracy people claim 9/11 was created by BushCo/Isreal whomever for money purposes.

Yet, the "educated" experts yelling conspiracy are making millions upon millions going on talkshows, selling books, publishing articles, having websites that get their names out there so that someone at CNN or the Guardian may quote them.

I just find it sad, that instead of trying to learn from it and build a stronger nation that won't allow it to happen again, we use it to divide us even more.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Actually, those shouting conspiracy are not only not profiting from it, but most are losing their jobs and their credibility. 9/11 truth isn't a profitatible. 9/11 truth book sales are not high. 9/11 truth is almost never covered on TV or radio, and when it is it is usually public access type of stuff (a.k.a. not corporiate funded).

Edit: the real stuff that's selling has more to do with the after math of 9/11, like Afghanistan and Iraq, or the loss of civil liberties and phone taps.

samcol

Oh wow....

Please, these conspiracy books aren't even a blip on the radar when it comes to sales. The vast majority of them aren't even in bookstores. I have no idea what you are talking about.

I feel a lot worse about people like Ann Coulter getting wall to wall promotion of their books, or the Bush paid propagandists who appear to be independent. Aren't those people a much bigger threat?

Sorry 9/11 isn't a done deal for many people. Everything that's happened geo-politically since 9/11 has changed for the worst. I refuse to simply move on when we still haven't fixed the original problem.

fastom

Seaver is still confusing me. So where are the manifests? They exist, you find them. If the hijackers names are on there they've been added after Sept 11th 2001.

So you think we need to brush this all aside and move on? We have pictures of Saddam in his underwear... 9-11 solved.

Seaver

Since when does the jury have to prove guilt to the defense?

You're the one with off the wall theories that in no way resemble coheasiveness or simple logic.. and you want me to do the searching to prove you wrong?

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

Willravel

Well you aren't justified in calling anything illogical until you prove it illogical. Th weight of evidence is on our side, but when you make a conclusion, it should be supported.