ApexgriN

note: I found a few threads on drugs, mentioning Ketamine, but I think this particular substance needs a thread of it's own. It's also in Paranoia since a lot of experiences cannot be proven nor disproven.

Has anyone ever tried Ketamine in a non-party situation, going for the "k-hole" rather than avoiding it?

I've had many interesting and profound experiences with Ketamine. Both joined visuals with other people, and amazing out of body experiences.

I say a non-party situation because a lot fo peoples experiences with various drugs are at partys and social situations, and unfortunately, the same applies to Ketamine. K is _not_ a party drug, and the experiences one can have while on K cannot be had at a party. Personally, I think that doing anything other than Alcohol or possibly MDMA (I hate E at parties, but I see the positives for others) at parties is irresponsible and deprives the user of the true experience.

I love dreaming, therefor my interest with Ketamine is deep rooted. It's an easy way to get into a Lucid dream within a few minutes, and the experiences one can have within your own mind and outside of your body can be great learning experiences.

For a good primer on K, check this out:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/keta...roject_1.shtml

I find the best situation for K is in my bedroom, with the temperature at the most neutral setting possible. Not hot or cold. It's best if you can get the room as dark as possible, preferably pitch black. Of course, you'll need some light to dose, but turn the light out quickly after and lay on your back. It also helps to do some relaxation exercises before hand, to clear the mind.

On dosing. The safest, most consistant and reliable way to do this is Intramuscular Injection. Basically, injecting into your arm or thigh. Never inject into a vien, you'll be out before safely disposing of the needle. Now, I've never done this, due to the social stigma and the people around me not being able to get over it. I will one day though.

The other way is snorting, which tastes horrible, hurts, but gets the jobs done. You can't properly measure your dose so start low and work up to something suitable for your needs.

As always, RESEARCH. I read many articles and books before trying it my first time, and I suggest you do the same with any drug.

This is getting long so I'll stop. If there's anyone with this kind of interest in Ketamine, hopefully this thread will grow.

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apexGrin

Nanz

Your crazy man, you want to inject it?
that just seems a bit extreme surely there is another way to use it.
I've thought about trying it before as i've heard that amount needed to OD is very high but im happy with my ganja atm
Didnt they use it as a painkiller in some war?

ApexgriN

Yes. Do you goto the hospital and snort the drugs they give you? You say I'm crazy only because of the social stigma surrounding injection. It's actually the safest way to do it, by far. You have control over the dose amount, the results are consistant, and I don't think powder in the lungs is a good thing.

One other thing that has prevented me; I can't seem to find any nurses manuals or references on how to properly administer an injection.

They use it at the Vet, on children, and on the elderly as a mild anasthetic. I doubt it was used in war, considering what it does.

You couldn't possibly overdose by yourself, especially by injection. I'd imagine if you ate mass amounts (may not be possible, I forgot the LD50 gram/lb of K) you could cause problems. You are simply put down faster than you can inject/snort enough.

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apexGrin

VitaminH

It was used in Vietnam.

It is not safe, you can easily OD by injecting or snorting to much at once.

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"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever."
- Napoleon Bonaparte

ApexgriN

Misinformation. Get that from the local paper?

I looked it up, Ketamine Hydrochloride has an LD50 (amount needed to kill 50% of lab animals) of 77milligrams per kilogram. So if I weigh in at 140lbs, 63.64kg, I would have to somehow inject 4900 milligrams before passing out to have a 50% chance of dieing. Not likely considering a normal dose is somewhere between 75mg and 125mg. The notion of snorting 5 grams at once is just silly. I'm sure if you REALLY tried, you might be able to do it. That would have to be a good sized syringe, and I'm not so sure a muscle could take 5 grams quick enough. I suppose you could do it by IV injection, but you'd have to be suicidal. Therefor, you cannot "easily OD" on Ketamine.

I'd imagine it was used in Vietnam, but only for surgerys and the like. It is not a long lasting drug, and a person cannot physically function with any real amount of K in them. It is not a pain killer.

It is safe, and is FDA approved for human consumption. It's so safe, as stated before, they prefer to use it on children and the elderly over other anasthetics.

Remember what I said about research? Yeah.

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apexGrin

sillygirl

Is this also called "special K" or am I thinking of something else?

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Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly-Rose Franken
....absence makes me miss him more...

ApexgriN

That's it. Ever done it?

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apexGrin

sillygirl

No. I had a good friend in high school who used to do it. At that point in time he'd stopped. It totally fucked him up, and was a contributing factor to the hell in his life.

Because of the hell that drugs had caused in his life, he ended up committing suicide... leaving a girlfriend, a child, and parents all completely unaware of the 'dark' side of his life.

I have never done drugs, will never do drugs, and have no respect for them.

And wasn't Ketamine used as a horse tranquilizer?

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Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly-Rose Franken
....absence makes me miss him more...

Johnny Rotten

Ketamine and its close cousin PCP are used as such. However, Ketamine does not produce psychotic aggression. In fact, it's used widely as a pain killer and has been successful with treating heroine addiction--in metered doses. As a disassociative, it can cause permanent brain damage, particularly widespread brain cell death by blocking glutamate transmission (glucose is the brain's fuel). K can cause brain lesions--"Olney's Lesions"--and there's currently no way to determine how suseceptible you will be to this.

Disassociatives (of which K is generally the mildest) have been linked to siezures and depression to a much higher degree than other recreational usage drugs. They are a much different beast from LSD, marijuana and shrooms. While the above cause your mind to open to the outer universe, to take down the walls of sensory filtration, disassociatives do the opposite. You can get to the same place, ironically, but you'll come around from the other side of the mental mountain. Your mind will be driven into itself rather than pushed outward.

Those who are prone to siezures or epilepsy--or have a family history as such--must steer very clear of this chemical. If you want disassociation, you can good results with transcendental meditation, which is of course much cheaper and safer, as well as being legal to do anytime and anywhere, in any amount--although even TM has its share of controversy.

ApexgriN

It is not used widely as a pain killer. I'm curious how you came up with that claim?

It is used on animals. It is used on childeren. It is used on the elderly. This is because of its mild nature. The doses one takes in a "recreational" setting are much lower than if you took your 8 year old in for surgery.

The side effects you speak of were reported by William E White in 1998. He makes some rather great assumptions in coming to these conclusions. I've linked to Erowids response below. You cannot state for a fact that his paper is accurate because of these assumptions. I cannot state for a fact that he is wrong, but the evidence suggests something else is going on. EDIT: Your line should read, "There is currently no way to determine if humans are susceptable to this at all."

How often you do it is also a factor. Do you give your brain a break? Do you slip into an addicted binge for weeks or months? Responsibility is what keeps you safe. Hell, these rules apply to anything. You could drink water till you died.

During my time with K, I'd usual dose once then wait a couple weeks before doing it again. This went on for I'd say, 3 months. I've never experienced any of the side effects mentioned in these papers.

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/dxm/dxm_health2.shtml

sillygirl: It's good that you don't try them. Without respect for drugs, they will destroy you. Just like a loaded gun. EDIT: Ever take aspirin? A lortab? Maybe some caffiene? What do you think those are? I'd learn to not fear drugs. I would research, and respect.

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apexGrin

jwoody

At first I was walking quite normally, then I felt as if I was walking on a cushion of air about a foot above the ground. It wasn't until I sat down that things got really strange.

I looked down at my feet and I saw them disappear, right before my eyes. I kept staring and slowly but surely my whole body started disappearing. At this point I could could still see quite clearly into the distance which lead to my mind believing that my body really was disappearing. This accompanied the feeling that my skin had been removed and every bone in my body was exposed to the elements, yet I felt no pain. My friend, sat next to me, was experiencing the same.

From the corners of my peripheral vision two small dots appeared, they were both red and green at the same time. These dots gradually became a single line crossing the horizon and I could see it hurtling towards it me breakneck speed.

Two red/green balls sped toward each other from either side of the line and, just before they met, thay arced towards my eyes and within seconds (or was it hours?) they smacked into my eyes and as they did I suddenly jerked my body back into life and I was right back where I had started - in a field in Somerset, surrounded by 100,000 people dancing to sound of The Chemical Brothers.

What a night.

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sillygirl

I very rarely take pills for anything. I have prescription bottles full of painkillers, muscle relaxers, etc in the kitchen from my car accident, and most of them are still there. It's not that I don't respect what they can do and what they're there for. But drugs like that weren't meant for recreation. And my respect for them is for what they'll do in a [i]medical] situation, not in a recreational one. I think it may be disrespectful to use them for what they're not meant for. (not trying to start a fight, just my opinion)

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Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly-Rose Franken
....absence makes me miss him more...

Nanz

tbh i would say snorting it would be safer, as if you have no medical knowledge on how to adminstor an injection then you are more likely to fuck it up.
Whats worse snorting something into your nose, lungs etc.
or accidently hitting a major artery or something.
I'd rather smoke or sniff something then stab myself with a needle to get high.

but hey thats just my opinon.

jujueye

You have some seriously messed up goals. I'm not flaming, just commenting.

ApexgriN

Wanting to administer a drug in the way it was meant to be, is messed up? You watch too many movies.

It's not like I'm going to cook up some powder in a spoon or some shit, it's in a sterile bottle designed just for the purpose of injection.
I'm not aware of any major arteries <sp?> in my shoulders muscle.

If you want to talk shit on Ketamine, start an anti-drug thread. This isn't the place for it.
---

We both lay on our backs. My body begins vibrating, the ringing in my ears is getting louder. I have to turn the music off, even though the volume was too low, my hearing had become extremely sensitive. Staring at the ceiling, my vision begins to darken from the outside in. I close my eyes. I hadn't done very much, but I can't feel my body, only the energy within it. At one point, I feel an intense wave sensation throughout my energy. It feels like my vibrations had synced up with hers. Immediately, she turns to me and asks "Did you feel that?".

We were laying completely still on a firm mattress, yet we both felt the same sensation at the same time. When this happened, she was outside of her body. Just before returning, she had been shown an ocean that brought her a feeling a peace. This is when we synced up, if only for a few seconds.

I've had "dual" experiences (what would you call it?) such as this every time I've done K with other people around in the same mindset. We've had a similar experience involving up to four people as well.

I find that when I'm with others, I cannot leave my body. When I'm alone, I cannot stay in my body. I don't know anyone else that this happens to. Anyone?

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apexGrin

sillygirl

If you don't know the name of the muscle you're wanting to inject a drug into, you might want to reconsider...

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Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly-Rose Franken
....absence makes me miss him more...

Johnny Rotten

I didn't come up with it, actually. I just researched beyond the sites that would tell me what I wanted to hear. We often choose our sources without realizing it.

http://www.drugtext.org/sub/pcp1.html
http://www.drugscope.org.uk/druginfo...Cketamine.html
http://www.urban75.com/Drugs/drugketa.html

It is also sold OTC in India and Mexico, although I don't have a link for that handy.

Quote:

Originally posted by ApexgriN The side effects you speak of were reported by William E White in 1998. He makes some rather great assumptions in coming to these conclusions. I've linked to Erowids response below. You cannot state for a fact that his paper is accurate because of these assumptions. I cannot state for a fact that he is wrong, but the evidence suggests something else is going on. EDIT: Your line should read, "There is currently no way to determine if humans are susceptable to this at all."

White's paper was never completed or proofed, and I would be obviously remiss to base such statements ona single document. I skimmed it. I wouldn't rest a case on it. And I don't need an article to tell me what a disassociative does to the human body. I went to college instead.

http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/html/u04/u04_010.htm
http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/Consumers/cmi/k/Ketalar.htm
http://www.metrohealthanesthesia.com...#psychological

Quote:

Originally posted by ApexgriN How often you do it is also a factor. Do you give your brain a break? Do you slip into an addicted binge for weeks or months? Responsibility is what keeps you safe. Hell, these rules apply to anything. You could drink water till you died.

Be as that may, K requires a higher level of personal responsibility than most people are willing to apply, compared to other drugs, and is not naturally occurring. You are too casual in your discussion of it.

http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=9278
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=2731
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=1179


This is the first time you have given any indication of what tone you wanted the thread to take. If you wanted a cheerleading thread, you should have made that clear from the start.

Nanz

Just because your not aware of any doesnt mean there arent any. And how would you tell self administering and injection into your shoulder?!

I dont walk to "talk shit" about special K, some of my friends have used it and it seems a odd but interesting drug.
Also i wouldnt ever start an anti drug thread as i use drugs myself and can see the benifits and down sides of them myself.

kthx

jujueye

No, I actually don't watch too many movies. You seem to have missed the two main points of my post:

1) If one of your life goals is to inject drugs, that's messed up. I realize this is the "correct" way to do this.

2) I'm not here to talk shit or start an anti-drug thread based on the "knowledge" you may or may not have. In any case, TFP is an open forum, so I could very well (if I'm polite) hijack this thread. So actually, this could very well be the place for it.

Relax. I'm not trying to be your dad. I just think youre' making some bad decisions. No harm in that. I'll leave you alone now.

ApexgriN

Not one of those sites lists K as used widely for painkilling. One suggests it's painkilling qualities, but then goes on to compare it to speed and coke. HAHA. (sarcasm)Accurate info there.(/sarcasm)

It is sold OTC in mexico, at vet supply stores as a vet anasthetic, NOT as a painkiller. This is where my source was.

The rest of your links backup my previous arguments of K's relative safety when used responsibly, and still have no mention of it being used specifically as a painkiller or a tranq.. They actually attest to it being an extremely valuable drug used worldwide. This doesn't go well with your "yer gonna burn holes in yer brain" argument.

I agree, I should have been more clear. I wasn't looking for a cheerleading thread. I'm open to constructive, educated discussions, but ignorant bashing is useless.

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apexGrin

ApexgriN

If I recall correctly, you didn't know the name of the drug your friend supposedly used to destroy his life, yet feel so passionately about it as being the truth?

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apexGrin

ApexgriN

I don't recall saying it was a life goal. I'd like to do it one day, when I know how, but until then I can wait. Hell, I've waited 2 years so far.

You could hijack this thread, hot shot, but is that why you're here? Is that what TFP is all about? Do you know anything about K or have any interest in it? If not, I hope you have already politely forgotten about this thread.

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apexGrin

Nanz

What the fuck has that got to do with your argument?
Bring up someones bad memories for no reason just to be used with the intent to slate someone, nice.

**I really can't lower myself to name-calling. I'm sorry.**

The people you percieve as being "anti drugs" seem to me as if they are just a little concerned you might hurt yourself, i know i am for a fact.

You should practice what you preach.

StormBerlin

K, totally not appropriate to call him a dick, and he is practicing what he's preaching. This thread is supposed to be one of educated discussion, not name calling. Just because he turned an opinion around to keep the discussion going about K doesn't make him a dick.

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"if anal sex could get a girl pregnant i'd be tits deep in child support" Arcane

ApexgriN

Uhm, this thread is gone.

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apexGrin

sillygirl

Um, I don't NEED to know a lot about a drug for me to not like what it did to one of my good friends. You don't need to know the story behind it, but thanks for makin' it sound like it's just a load of bullshit. To that I say, "Fuck off".


And as far as people trying to 'hijack' your thread, well, someone once told me that the minute you hit the Submit button when starting a thread, it's no longer yours. It's open to the public. As far as I can tell, no one here has insulted you for wanting to talk about this drug. As far as I can see, you're the one who got defensive about it, and you're the one who started personal attacks. But, maybe that's just the way I see it.

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Anyone can be passionate, but it takes real lovers to be silly-Rose Franken
....absence makes me miss him more...

=simbolik=

its like roots maneuva said "simmer down, everybody just simmer down"

I dont want this thread to die because of flaring emotions, so far its one of the most articulate discussions I have seen on the subject. so lets start again shall we

the last time I experianced k (almost 2 years ago) I injected it.

I did research on sterilization procedures/ dosage and put together an awesome setting, all the wile preparing "myself" mentally and spiritually. I feel like I covered my bases

when the time came I had one friend who was staying grounded administer the doses to my girl and I, and with the physical stuff all taken care of we both lie back to have the experiance.

it's too early and I have too much coffee in me to wax spirituosophical on the experiance rite now, but I can tell every one that it was powerful and important to me.

like I said I have not had the inclination to use ketimine in almost 2 years ,maby I got out of it erverything I wanted to, but I realize that there are anynumber of kids out there who are in the same boat I was in a few years ago. snorting k in a hottub with a bottle of wine, thinking It was good times...heh, yea good times untill you projectile vomited onto an unsuspecting palm tree

ignorance is the enemy, apex and J R both seem to be combating that, if not eachother.

lets keep the discussion alive... post experiances!!!

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kicksnanresnare kicksnare

bermuDa

this discussion reminds me of how i used to talk about drugs, thinking erowid and dancesafe were the ultimate authorities on them, and that other sources were probably government controlled and slated against narcotics to decieve the public. It took me time to realize that every piece of literature (online or otherwise) has its bias one way or another, and my favorite drug sites were just that, slanted towards drug use, to reassure people that as long as they do them right, drugs aren't dangerous (which is true to an extent but there are no guarantees). They're primers on how to convince people to do drugs.

Apex, you asked for experiences and information and when you recieve any that oppose your opinion, you with you wave it off as misinformation or passive-aggressively try to sabotage the other person's argument. You have to accept that other people have strong feelings about drugs and you won't be able to convince them otherwise with all the erowid links in the world. Drug use breeds this behavior, we look for ways to rationalize our recreational use of narcotics, and cite sources that justify our actions, whilst ignoring the opinions and research of others. I've been there, and it's a close-minded place to be.

I'm willing to permit this discussion granted we allow all opinions here and don't try to undermine someone's argument because you don't agree with them.

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Nanz

I agree, aphex im sorry for calling you a dick. I was in a bad mood at the time.
I actually think ketamin is a safe drug to use plenty of my friends have snorted it (with some pretty hilarious consequences). Its just needles freak me out for a start and its the usage of a needle and the risks involved that way.
Say you pass out straight away with the needle still in you, even if it was in muscle tissue.
Say you hit something important such as an artery.
Say the needle is dirty, not just STD's but general bad bacteria.

Id be happy to see an arguement that shows me for sure that its safe because a lot of things i read on the internet i take with a pinch of salt, as it seems things can be biased (in both directions) especially when it comes to mind altering substances.