Media/Government Blackout: What Goering said of 1941 Death of William Rhodes Davis - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

host · 07-14-2008, 02:50 PM

Some books covering this subject:
http://books.google.com/books?q=will...G=Search+Books

Quote:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...765913,00.html
Monday, Aug. 11, 1941

Died. William Rhodes Davis, 52, the oil world's "mystery man" of World War ii; in Houston, Tex. In 1938 he fixed the barter deal which gave Germany and Italy some 20 million barrels of Mexican oil, some of it expropriated from U.S. and British oil companies, and in late 1939 he came back from Germany with a negotiated peace conference proposal.

British WWII spymaster, Stephenson, aka "Intrepid" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Stephenson head of British espionage in the western hemisphere, later, in his dictated memoirs, allowed that he did it..."removed" William Rhodes Davis:
http://books.google.com/books?id=ysV...yL79BcIZkf7W7Q

Quote:

http://spitfirelist.com/f475.html

......10. “Pryor telephoned Wilkie from Davis’s home and told him of the oilman’s willingness to pay for the Lewis broadcast. Wilkie wanted to immediately meet this mysterious man who would make an offer of such dimensions. Pryor used his private plane to fly Davis to meet with Wilkie, who was then at his home in Rushville, Indiana. After Davis repeated his offer to Wilkie in person, the Republican nominee pointed to the contribution limits of the federal election law and suggested that the money be given to various Wilkie clubs to maintain the legalities. Davis concluded the meeting by reiterating to Wilkie his offer to carry the cost of a nationwide radio speech by his friend John L. Lewis, who would publicly endorse Wilkie. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.]” (Ibid.; p. 152.)

11. “Wilkie later said that he had never heard of Davis before being informed that Davis would sponsor the Lewis broadcast, and that he would have rejected the offer if he had known who Davis was. Wilkie’s profession of ignorance seems implausible, because by this time Davis’s Nazi connections had been widely publicized in the newspapers. Soon after the Lewis broadcast, Wilkie wrote Davis a letter asking Davis not to publicly endorse him because of the allegations that Davis had German connections.” (Idem.)

12. “Wilkie’s willingness to take Davis’s money puts a tarnish on Wilkie’s incorruptible image both because of Davis’s known Nazi connections and Wilkie’s early public insistence that the federal campaign finance laws be adhered to in the spirit as well as the letter of the law. When Wilkie was later asked if he was aware of Davis’s contributions to the Republican Party, Wilkie lied and said he never knew about these funds. These questionable actions show that Wilkie, like many politicians, was more interested in winning than in the morality of what he had to do to win.” (Idem.)

13. “At the conclusion of the Davis-Wilkie meeting, an arrangement was made for Wilkie to meet Lewis in New York on the night of September 28. To prepare for this meeting, Davis and Wehrle met with Pryor and several other Wilkie supporters, including Gene Tunney, the famous boxer, to discuss his support for Wilkie at New York’s Waldorf Astoria Hotel. Pryor wanted assurance that Lewis would endorse Wilkie. Davis said, ‘I’ll call Lewis and I think he is ready to make a pro-Wilkie statement.’ Davis telephoned Lewis and Lewis agreed to endorse Wilkie. Davis returned to the meeting and told Pryor of Lewis’s answer, and the Wilkie supporters left the meeting excited about the boost that Lewis endorsement would give Wilkie’s campaign. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.]” (Idem.)

14. “Soon after, Lewis called Wilkie from Davis’s home in Scarsdale to confirm their upcoming meeting. Wilkie met with Lewis at the Manhattan apartment of Sam Pryor. Joe Martin, the national chairman of the Republican Party, was also present. Late into the night, Lewis and Wilkie engaged in a brisk conversation about their politics. [Italics are Mr. Emory’s.]” (Ibid.; pp. 152-153.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=t8r...um=1&ct=result

.......19. “On October 21 Davis called the three radio networks to schedule the broadcast and identified himself as a personal representative of Lewis. He arranged for the payment of $55,000 for a thirty-minute radio broadcast in which John L. Lewis would deliver a speech on the national election to more than 362 stations on all three major radio networks. Davis also paid for the printing of millions of copies of Lewis’s speech to be distributed across the country after the broadcast.” (Ibid.; p. 155.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=xur...4gFQ#PPA559,M1

20. “Davis financed the Lewis broadcast by passing the money to the Democrats for Wilkie political committee, which included in its leadership such prominent anti-New Deal Democrats as former presidential candidates Al Smith and John W. Davis. This political committee then paid the radio networks for the broadcast. This indirect arrangement was used to get around the federal campaign finance laws and to hide the source of the contribution. There was a furious exchange of checks to ensure that no one individual would be listed as contributing more than the $5,000 limit of the federal campaign law, and Republican lawyers scanned all the transactions and scrutinized the checks to make sure there were no violations.” (Idem.)

21. “The White House was aware of who paid for Lewis’s broadcast almost immediately, but chose not to publicize the information until after the election. . . .” (Idem.)

22. “ . . . With an estimated 25-30 million listeners, Lewis delivered in his deep baritone voice a bitter attack on Roosevelt and asked trade unionists to oppose his reelection. He accused the president of not ending unemployment and of neglecting labor, but his most emphatic accusation was that he was leading the nation into war. What was the president’s objective, asked Lewis? ‘It is war. His every act leads to this inescapable conclusion. The President has said that he hates war and will work for peace but his acts do not match his words. The President has been scheming for years to involve us in war.’ Vehemently denouncing Roosevelt and asserting that his election could very well mean both war and dictatorship, Lewis declared for Wilkie.” (Ibid.; pp. 155-156.)

23. “He praised Wilkie’s integrity and described Wilkie as someone who was not an aristocrat but a common man. ‘He has the common touch. He was born in the briar and not to the purple. He has worked with his hands, and has known pangs of hunger.’ This description of Wilkie was pure fantasy and was intended for Lewis’ labor constituents. Lewis then reviewed the candidate’s promises and aims, including the promise that Wilkie would give labor full representation in his administration.” (Ibid.; p. 156.)

24. “Lewis concluded his speech with a dramatic pledge. He placed his personal prestige squarely on the line in support of the Republican nominee by vowing that if Roosevelt received a third presidential term he would consider it a vote of no confidence in his own leadership of the CIO. Therefore, he would resign from his position as president of the CIO if Roosevelt were reelected. He implored his followers: ‘Sustain me now or repudiate me.’” (Idem.)

25. The Davis/Nazi/GOP/Pryor stratagem was unsuccessful. “After the speech, Davis and Lewis waited expectantly for labor to move into the Wilkie camp. If the CIO vote were captured, it would ensure a Wilkie victory. However, virtually all of Lewis’s followers, whether they said so or not, were dismayed by his endorsement of Wilkie. The pro-Roosevelt faction in the CIO had hoped Lewis would limit himself to vigorous criticism of the president. What had been expected was a vitriolic attack on Roosevelt and a new ‘plague on both your houses.’ After his endorsement of Wilkie, Lewis pressured union officials to support his stand for Wilkie or resign. Several union officials resigned, including the head of labor’s Non-Partisan League, Gardner Jackson.” (Idem.)

26. “Jackson may have been referring to the Davis dealings in his letter of resignation: ‘These are critical days when, more than ever, men seem to become captives of their personal ambition for wealth, social position and influence, and when their adventures in power politics and in finance politics, both at home and in the international field, also make them captives.’ It is possible that Jackson’s resignation was closely tied to the Lewis-Davis link. Because the radio networks sent the bill for the broadcast to the Non-Partisan League, which then passed it on to the Democrats for Wilkie, it is likely that Jackson was aware of the source of funding for the broadcast and that he could not condone taking money from a Nazi sympathizer. . . .” (Idem.)

27. Another malefactor on the US political scene in the 1940’s was Attorney General Tom Clark—the father of Ramsey Clark, himself an Attorney General. (For more about Ramsey Clark, see—among other broadcasts—FTR#’s 350, 398, 401, 408, 433.) O. John Rogge—a Justice Department official who was investigated Nazi subversion in the U.S.—was working to expose the Third Reich’s links to U.S. industrialists, financiers and politicians. Among those he was working to expose were the figures who had conspired to defeat Roosevelt in 1940. (See above.) “The Rogge mission painstakingly scrutinized thousands of confidential documents from the files of the German War Ministry, Foreign Office, Propaganda Ministry, and Abwehr. Rogge later said, ‘Our investigation showed us that we had completely underestimated the scope and scale of Nazi activities in the United States. When I went to Germany I felt that the biggest threat to American democracy emanated from the machinations of persons like the defendants in the sedition trial [i.e. Fascist crackpots]. I found that a far more dangerous threat lay in the inter-connections between German and American industrialists, and that some of the best known names in America were involved in Nazi intrigue.’” (Ibid.; p. 206.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=vh7...lMTFbA#PPA6,M1

28. Tom Clark blocked the public release of the report. “When Rogge returned to Washington toward the end of June, he was confident that he had uncovered sufficient evidence to warrant federal prosecution of a number of Americans. Working at fever pitch, Rogge began preparing a comprehensive report to Attorney General Clark on the voluminous data he had collected in Germany. In early July, Rogge submitted to Clark a draft of the first section of his report.” (Idem.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=vh7...TFbA#PPA197,M1

29. “To Rogge’s surprise, the report’s references to links between the Germans and American business and political leaders clearly disturbed Clark. . . After reading the report, Clark declared that it could not possibly be published and would have to remain a secret document. Rogge was not happy with Clark’s proposal and asked that Clark hold off on a final decision until the report was completed. Rogge continued to work on the report through August. As he neared the end, one of Clark’s aides proposed that Rogge omit all names of American politicians and businessmen. Rogge refused.” (Idem.)

30. “By the time Rogge finished writing the report, he knew that the Department of Justice would never agree to publish his findings. Accordingly, he decided that he might as well put everything in the report regardless of whether it was politically expedient. The incendiary final recommendation of the report was for the Justice Department to begin an investigation of the collaboration between German and American industrialists before the war. On September 17, 1946, Rogge delivered his 396-page report to Attorney General Clark. As Rogge expected, Clark told him ‘the report would not be made public.’” (Idem.)

31. Rogge took a leave of absence to make a college speaking tour, on which he was able to successfully publicize some of the contents of the suppressed report. “ . . . Shortly afterward, Rogge obtained permission to take a two-week leave of absence to make a lecture tour on the fascist menace in the United States. Rogge told Attorney General Clark that he was going to make a speech on Nazi penetration of the United States. Rogge said Clark ‘asked me whether I would say that the department had not attempted to restrain me in any way. He again stated that my report was not going to be made public. I told him that I would not mention the report.’” (Ibid.; p. 207.)

Quote:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...8BD95F428485F9

ROGGE TIES LEWIS TO NAZIS IN POLITICS; Tells of Talks With Ribbentrop, Goering, Who Sought Defeat of Roosevelt in '36, '40, '44

Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

October 23, 1946, Wednesday

Page 8, 568 words

WASHINGTON, Oct. 22--A political science class at Swarthmore College tonight heard from O. John Rogge, special Assistant to the Attorney General, a detailed account of efforts which Hermann Goering, Joachim von Ribbentrop and other high Nazi officials say they made to defeat President Roosevelt for re-election in 1936, 1940 and 1944....

32. Rogge disclosed the 1940 plot to defeat Roosevelt: “But in a Swarthmore College speech, Rogge revealed to his college audience some of his report’s discoveries. He stated that Goering and Ribbentrop had told him that John L. Lewis, William Rhodes Davis, Senator Burton Wheeler, former vice president John Garner, former postmaster general James Farley, and former president Herbert Hoover had all conspired with the Germans in an attempt to defeat Roosevelt in 1940 and keep the United States out of the war. He also mentioned that Hertslet played a key role in the German scheme to prevent Roosevelt’s reelection in 1940.” (Idem.)

Quote:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch...ange=1944,1945
NAZI SCHEME TO DEFEAT FDR TOLD BY GOERING
Pay-Per-View - Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Jul 8, 1946
A Nazi scheme to use a huge fund to try and defeat President Roosevelt in the 1940 election campaign was disclosed today by Asst. Atty. Gen. O. John Rogge.

33. Tom Clark fired Rogge!! Covering up fascist intrigue apparently runs in the family—Ramsey Clark (his son and also an Attorney General of the U.S.) helped to cover-up the assassinations of John and Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King, Jr. He has represented Nazi war criminals, the fascist Lyndon Larouche, and Sheik Rahman among others. (Sheik Rahman is linked to al-Qaeda and the first plot against the World Trade Center.) Clark also lobbied against the establishment of the Office of Special Investigations—the Justice Department unit encharged with ferreting out Nazi war criminals living in the U.S. (This unit was headed by John Loftus.) “On the morning of October 25, Rogge left New York by plane for a speaking engagement in Seattle, Washington. Due to bad weather, the plane made an unscheduled stop in Spokane. At the airport Rogge was informed that there was no room for him on the next leg of the flight. Stuck in Spokane, he was told that a Mr. Savage was on his way to the airport to see him. Soon afterward, a man approached Rogge at the airport and said, ‘My name’s Savage, I’m from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.’ He handed Rogge an envelope. The envelope contained a letter to Rogge from Attorney General Clark. The letter curtly notified Rogge that he was dismissed from the Justice Department immediately. Clearly, the FBI had been following Rogge and had arranged to keep him in Spokane so that he could be handed his termination letter. Attorney General Clark wanted Rogge’s authority as a federal official stripped away before he could speak at another college.” (Ibid.; pp. 207-208.)

So what we have here is a followup to the PTB thread, where it was shown that the father of this Wendell Wilkie campaign manager, Sam F. Pryor Jr., was Samuel F. Pryor Sr., business partner of both Bush grandfathers, and director of Remington Arms-Union Metallic Cartridge, largest small arms and ammunition manufacturer in the uS, whose manufacturing operations were directly overseen by Samuel P. Bush. Pryor Sr. purchased Jupiter Island, where the Bushes have lived in winter, since the 1930's. Smedley Butler testified that ammunition would be supplied by Remington for the fascist coup he war asked by bond saleman, Gerald Mcguire to lead in 1934.

Samuel F. Pryor Sr. was a founding director of both the Harriman/Bush Hamburg-Amerika shipping line, and of Union Bank (UBC), seized by the Alien property custodian, in 1943, when Prescott Bush and E. Roland Harriman were directors and stockholders....

An added intricacy is that Hermann Goering claimed, just before his own death, that William Rhodes Davis was instructed by Goering and Ribbentrop to fuse Nazi financing, if possible to defeat Roosevelt in the 1940 election, and the assistant Atty. General who revealed that, was fired by Attorney General Tom Clark (father of Ramsey Clark) for revealing these details from his report.

The O. John Rogge report was not made public until 1961:
http://books.google.com/books?id=82o...zi+1961&pgis=1

I am thinking that this story of murder and Nazi influenced political intrigue was suppressed, because it is true. I would be especially interested in your reaction, especially to the campaign financing of the Wilkie campaign and the implications it had for later house speaker, Joe Martin.

I'm making an extra effort, since it is campaign time, to support my suspicion that it doesn't matter much, which major party presidential candidate you vote for, because they both are vetted by this cabal that actually runs things. The ones with the power to suppress what is in this thread, all the way back to Smedley Butler's 1934 Dickstein McCormack committee testimony, and even before that, back to the decade before WWI when the major US industrialized made their pacts with the German Dye Trust, et al.

Willravel · 07-14-2008, 02:55 PM

The evidence seems quite clear. It seems this is one among many stories of Nazi financing from wealthy US interests. Unfortunately, it's far too late to charge any of these people with the crimes they have committed. But perhaps it can serve as motivation to prevent ongoing war crimes, illegal financing of fascist regimes, and wealthy corporations and individuals from interfering in economics and politics to the detriment of the masses.

host · 07-14-2008, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

The evidence seems quite clear. It seems this is one among many stories of Nazi financing from wealthy US interests. Unfortunately, it's far too late to charge any of these people with the crimes they have committed. But perhaps it can serve as motivation to prevent ongoing war crimes, illegal financing of fascist regimes, and wealthy corporations and individuals from interfering in economics and politics to the detriment of the masses.

will.....had you ever heard of William Rhodes Davis?

He built a refinery in Germany in 1938, and he had to route the equipment and later the oil, through a Swedish port, before shipping to Germany, to get around the allied embargo of oil and refinery equipment.

I suspected I was on to something when I saw that Sam F. Pryor Jr., Yale '21, and son of UBC bank director, and the "death merchant" of Remington/Dupont, and founder of the cozy little power and wealth concentration of Jupiter Island, was a principle in connecting Wilkie with Rhodes Davis. Goering's posthumous endorsement of Davis and the suppression of Rogge's speeches on college campuses, only add to my surprise.... where the eff is the press....don't we have a new reporter here....can he show this thread's OP to his editor, and still keep his job?

On November 9, 1946, Walter Winchell compared details that he had reported in his own column, all the way back to 1938, that meshed with what was in O. John Rogge's report, after his interviews with 66 people in Germany:

Willravel · 07-14-2008, 03:07 PM

The problem with the media is two fold: fear and lack of freedom. They fear retaliation and are almost always corporate funded. That combination provides for a situation where the constitutionally protected freedom of the press is lost.

Beyond that, those who don't have the fear and who can control what they report not only don't have the resources, but there are too many things for one person to cover. If I were an independent journalist, I wouldn't even know where to start because so much news is suppressed.

My hope with your posts has always been that the right person will start to see the patterns and that person will be able to disseminate the verifiable information widely enough that it cannot be suppressed.

host · 07-14-2008, 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

The problem with the media is two fold: fear and lack of freedom. They fear retaliation and are almost always corporate funded. That combination provides for a situation where the constitutionally protected freedom of the press is lost.

Beyond that, those who don't have the fear and who can control what they report not only don't have the resources, but there are too many things for one person to cover. If I were an independent journalist, I wouldn't even know where to start because so much news is suppressed.

My hope with your posts has always been that the right person will start to see the patterns and that person will be able to disseminate the verifiable information widely enough that it cannot be suppressed.

I didn't know where to begin with this new research direction, so I decided to use tiny little Jupiter Island, Fl, as the center of study, because it is significant that two recent presidents came out of there, with a Yale bonesman father who had a past that included investing and banking for the Nazis....and it didn't hurt that the other choice for president in the last election, was also a bonesmen..... even Sen. John Heinz, Kerry's wife's first husband was a bonesman.

I am struck with how tiny a talent pool this is....a presidency, intelligence apparatus, and military and armaments industry, all dominated by such a tiny group of men....documented from 1914 to 2008.

Next up will be McCone-Bechtel, a huge can of worms there....just look up Bechtel big dig or bechtel Iraqi contracts , on google. The press is not blind...it is complicit in robbing us blind, by parasites who "hate big government", but grew fat off of it, at least since that day in 1918 when Samuel P. Bush took his seat at his desk at the War Industries Board. The word is that most of the records from his office were "later burned to save room". Am I supposed to respect people who voted for these "candidates"?

...and this, just in:

Quote:

http://news.google.com/archivesearch...ange=1990,2005

LINDBERGH PRAISED IN NAZI NEWSPAPER; 'A Real American,' Says...
$3.95 - New York Times - Apr 25, 1941
The important German newspaper Hamburger Fremdenblatt, commenting on last night's "America First" rally in New York, described Colonel Charles A. Lindbergh ...

Quote:

http://maui.aloha-hawaii.com/hawaii/...bergh+on+maui/

Lindbergh’s introduction to Kipahulu came in the 1950s, when he began visiting his longtime friend, Pan Am executive Sam Pryor. Pryor had settled on 100 acres in this secluded community—Kipahulu is about 10 miles beyond Hana—and frequently hosted Lindbergh and his wife, author Anne Morrow Lindbergh. With each visit, the Lindberghs became more enamored of the area.

Eventually, Pryor sold Lindbergh five acres of his property, and by 1971, the Lindberghs had local workmen build a lava-walled, A-frame house in Kipahulu near the edge of 100-foot-high cliffs. While it lacked the modern comforts of air conditioning and television, the residence allowed the couple to get closer to the wilderness they cherished.....

Seaver · 07-14-2008, 04:59 PM

What's the big deal? Kennedy had parents who were in to pretty much the same thing. I've always felt the sins of the father are not to fall on the son. This is what, two generations?

If you're implying Bush Sr. was a traitor, remember he was a pilot who fought in the Pacific (being shot down actually).

host · 07-14-2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

What's the big deal? Kennedy had parents who were in to pretty much the same thing. I've always felt the sins of the father are not to fall on the son. This is what, two generations?

If you're implying Bush Sr. was a traitor, remember he was a pilot who fought in the Pacific (being shot down actually).

I'm offering proof that both Prescott Bush and George H. Walker were partnered with Samuel F Pryor Sr., and that Samuel P Bush oversaw Pryor's Remington-UMC operations, in his role as small arms and ammo overseer, for the war industries board, and that this began a close relationship with the Pryor family, on Jupiter Island, that exists to the present. I've posted evidence that Prescott and the bank he was director of were seized in 1943 by the Alien Property Cutodian, and that Pryor Sr. and Bush's Harriman Bros. partners were founding directors of that bank.

The Bush family has never responded to any of this evidence, and the electorate and press have not demanded it of them..... But, then again, they have plenty of company in all of this, don't they?

Quote:

"A clique of U.S. industrialists is hell-bent to bring a fascist state to supplant our democratic government and is working closely with the fascist regime in Germany and Italy. I have had plenty of opportunity in my post in Berlin to witness how close some of our American ruling families are to the Nazi regime. . . .

"Certain American industrialists had a great deal to do with bringing fascist regimes into being in both Germany and Italy. They extended aid to help Fascism occupy the seat of power, and they are helping to keep it there."

-- William E. Dodd, U.S. Ambassador to Germany, 1937.

Note that Walter S. Carpener, first non-Du Pont family member, headed the Du Pont Corp. finance committee in 1933. and negotiated on behalf of Du Pont for the purchase of Remington-UMC, from Pryor Sr. Walter Carpenter purchased property from the Pryors of Jupiter Island, and ran DuPont, as it's president and later Chairman, during the period Dupont was first, A-Bomb principle contractor, and then, when it was H-bomb principle contractor.

Counter spy Respondek, diclosed this, after the war:

Quote:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HqN...vUEjTWny__HC0A

...The outbreak of hostilities between Germany and the United States in December, 1941, did not affect this pact.... IG Farben supplied Du pont with information....in the greatest detail....until January/February 1945....

.....and vice versa.....business as usual !

Do a search of the name "Farish" via the TFP search, you'll see that William S. Farish of Standard Oil, NJ admitted to doing the same with Farben, and his grandson was chosen, in 1980, to manage GHW Bush's portfolio when he became VP. They operate right out in the open.....

Seaver there appear to have been 20 members of congress, 18 of them republicans, who either took money directly from the Nazi German government, or took money passed through organizations from that government, to the 20 elected officials, and four more abused their franking privileges in the Nazi German cause. I just added a piece in post #2, that implicates rep. Hamilton Fish, from NY.

John Alexander Republican Minnesota
Philip Bennett Republican Missouri

Usher Burdick Republican North Dakota
Worth Clark Democrat Idaho

Cliff Clevenger Republican Ohio
Henry Dworshak Republican Idaho

Clare Hoffman Republican Michigan
Edwin Johnson Democrat Colorado

Bartell Jonlman Republican Michigan
Harold Knutson Republican Minnesota

Robert LaFollette Republican Wisconsin
Gerald Nye Republican North Dakota

Robert Reynolds Democrat North Carolina
Paul Shafer Republican Michigan

Henrik Shipstead Republican Minnesota
William Stratton Republican Illinois

Martin Sweeney Democrat Ohio
Jacob Thorkelson Republican Montana

George Tinkham Republican Massachusetts
Burton Wheeler Democrat Montana

This is part of what the mindset was, after the war ended:

Quote:

The allied armies had won the war in Europe against fascism but the U. S. was losing the war at home against fascism. In their rabid hatred of communism the native fascists were now plotting the cold war and everyone was needed to fight the new menace and justice could be sacrificed.

Apologies for such a "spotty" presentation and documentation Seaver, because we are limited to uncovering the secrets of the powerful, AGAINST THEIR WISHES....and the press in the US is of little aid in the effort to do so.

host · 07-15-2008, 10:11 PM

Seaver, it's not looking good, for the "home" team..... and.... "the Kennedys did it...." is a pretty lame reaction. "The Kennedys" didn't promote an hysterical, 65 years long and still counting....."red baiting" campaign that succeeded in destroying "the left", in the US, principally to distract from the "business class's" own treason, in the '30's and '40's.....

Quote:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...8ED85F428585F9

Nazi Data Link Republican To 1940 Propaganda Drive; A Congressman Tried to Get Convention to Back Isolationism, Records State-- Hamilton Fish Denies German Aid

The New York Times

May 27, 1956, Sunday

Page 1, 2145 words

WASHINGTON, May 26-- Long-secret documents made public today recounted that Nazi propagandists had collaborated with "a well-known Republican Congressman" in trying to get the 1940 Republican National Convention to adopt an "isolationist" platform.

I don't have access to the body of the NY Times article, but I do have access to another archival service:

What this May, 1956 article reports about the activities of Rep. Hamilton Fish (R-NY), is certainly interesting and revealing, but..."the kicker" is what the US State Dept. was revealing, during the beginning of the fifth straight year of a republican presidency (Eisenhower).... the revelations start in the second page of the article, below the sub heading, "Top Secret Messages", and they seem to confirm everything else I have posted in this thread.....

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2008, 11:02 PM

Out of all this propaganda that you tossed down, I don't see the connections.

Wow.. Audrey Meadows got married

host · 07-15-2008, 11:18 PM

Move the thread back to politics where it belongs....all of the points are fully documented... suggest you consult with the_Jazz ...... I think more respect than this....suddenly moving the thead, should be accorded, considering the effort and quality of the references and the unique way it is all tied together. It is journalism in posted form....if it doesn't belong in politics, but it is fully documented....why would it belong here, unless it is to marginalize......

Doesn't it seem that Americans allowed their political process to be compromised by hostile, foreign agents, soon to be "the enemy", in a time of war? Why has this been surpressed, how did it all get swept under the rug, unless the press and the business community was united in it's complicity to sweep these revelations, away?

The Nazis worked with American politicians to try to "steal" the 1940 presidential election, for the purpose of keeping the US out of the war being waged by Britain, against Germany......

Quote:

http://query.nytimes.com/beta/search...=15&submit=sub
SIDELIGHTS OF THE WEEK
One implicated legislator was the late Senator Ernest Lundeen, Minnesota isolationist, who, it was said, had inserted speeches prepared by Mr. Viereck into ...March 8, 1942

Quote:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...773070,00.html
The Memory of Fish
Monday, Mar. 02, 1942

Ham Fish's memory went dead. The gangling, trumpet-tongued Congressman was on the witness stand in Washington, called there to explain his relations with George Sylvester Viereck, veteran Nazi propaganda agent. Viereck was on trial, charged with failing to tell the State Department all about his activities. One Government witness was George Hill, World War I buddy and for some 20 years office clerk to Ham Fish. Because he had once denied knowing Agent Viereck, Hill himself was tried for perjury a few weeks ago, had been sentenced to two-to-six years in jail. He took it like a man who was loyally suppressing a big secret. But in court last week, Hill admitted that:

¶He had served as handy man of a propaganda ring managed by Viereck and Prescott Dennett, Washington publicist.

¶ Ham Fish had introduced him to Viereck, after Fish had held a long conference with the Nazi agent in Fish's private office.

¶ Viereck then instructed him to mail out, under frank of Minnesota's late Senator Ernest Lundeen, copies of an isolationist speech Lundeen made in the Senate.

¶Fish provided Viereck with a mailing list of some 100,000 names.

Ham Fish strode in with majestic dignity. But his memory was in bad shape. He could not be sure whether he had introduced Viereck to his secretary, George Hill. All such details had faded into a fog. Prosecutor William Power Maloney asked suavely whether it was a coincidence that Viereck's views as a Nazi propagandist "coincide so closely with your views as a Congressman at this time." Mr. Fish could still shout. He leaned forward, shouted: "The man who made that statement lies." Maloney asked him whether he referred to Viereck. Fish replied: "I am referring to you. ... I didn't come here to be insulted."

Said Maloney: "I think the American people have been insulted."

Quote:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...89D85F468485F9
SAYS MRS. LUNDEEN TOOK VIERECK DATA; Former Secretary to Senator Testifies That Widow "Stripped' Files of Records TELLS OF SPEECH-WRITING Witness Asserts Joint Effort Produced Anti-British Attack -- Viereck Paid by Nazi

February 25, 1942, Wednesday

Page 10, 341 words

WASHINGTON, Feb. 24 (AP) -Mrs. Gordon Spielman, former confidential secretary to the late Senator Lundeen, testified in District Court today that his widow stripped his files of all information relating to George Sylvester Viereck, pro-German publicist....

Quote:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...89D85F468485F9
HILL LINKS FISH WITH VIERECK ACTS; Convicted Secretary Reverses Testimony in Telling of His Introduction to Nazi Agent MAILED SPEECH ON 'FRANK' Witness Says 125,000 Copies Were Sent Out and He Got 'Tip' of $100 From Defendant

February 20, 1942, Friday

Page 11, 554 words

WASHINGTON, Feb. 19 (AP) -- A story of how George Sylvester Viereck, German propaganda agent, visited Capitol Hill in 1940 and arranged for wholesale distribution of Congressional speeches attacking the Administration's foreign policy was told in Federal Court today by George Hill, former assistant secretary of Representative Hamilton Fish.

Quote:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...8AD85F468485F9

WITNESS SAYS HILL USED LUNDEEN FRANK; Mrs. Spielman Testifies Viereck Wrote Speeches for Senator

January 10, 1942, Saturday

Section: BUSINESS FINANCIAL, Page 32, 233 words

WASHINGTON, Jan. 9 (U.P.) -- Mrs. Gordon Spielman of New York City testified in District Court today that George D. Hill, secretary to Representative Fish of New York, used the frank of Senator Lundeen of Minnesota to mail speeches which the government alleges were written by George Sylvester Viereck, German propagandist. The witness was a clerk for Senator Lundeen from July, 1939, to December, 1940.

Quote:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...8AD85F468485F9
SENATORS ARE NAMED AT THE TRIAL OF HILL; Grand Jury Secretary Identifies Speeches Taken From Mailbags

January 9, 1942, Friday

Page 9, 263 words

WASHINGTON, Jan. 8 (AP) -- The names of Senators Nye, Reynolds and Clark of Idaho, and Representative Stratton of Illinois were brought into the perjury trial of George Hill, second secretary to Representative Fish of New York, when eighteen mailbags containing franked Congressional speeches were opened in court today.

Quote:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstra...8AD85F468485F9
JURY IS SELECTED FOR TRIAL OF HILL; All-Male Panel Will Hear Perjury Evidence Against Fish's Secretary

Special to THE NEW YORK TIMES.

January 8, 1942, Thursday

Section: BUSINESS FINANCIAL, Page 44, 399 words

WASHINGTON, Jan. 7 -- A charge that George Hill, a secretary of Representative Fish of New York, worked closely with George Sylvester Viereck and in less than a year distributed more than 500,000 pieces of "propaganda speeches," under Congressional frank, was made by William P. Maloney, government prosecutor, as the trial of Mr. Hill began today.

Nazi's Pre-Pearl Harbor, Trap:

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2008, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

Move the thread back to politics where it belongs....all of the points are fully documented... suggest you consult with the_Jazz ...... I think more respect than this....suddenly moving the thead, should be accorded, considering the effort and quality of the references and the unique way it is all tied together. It is journalism in posted form....if it doesn't belong in politics, but it is fully documented....why would it belong here, unless it is to marginalize......

Doesn't it seem that Americans allowed their political process to be compromised by hostile, foreign agents, soon to be "the enemy", in a time of war? Why has this been surpressed, how did it all get swept under the rug, unless the press and the business community was united in it's complicity to sweep these revelations, away?

The Nazis worked with American politicians to try to "steal" the 1940 presidential election, for the purpose of keeping the US out of the war being waged by Britain, against Germany......

FORUMS ARE TO PROVIDE DISCUSSION.

Since you've created obviously irrefutable points, with lots of back up, there's nothing to discuss except to have someone nod their head in agreement with your statement.

To state that equate your post to journalism is great, IMO pompous and arrogant and belittles those that have actually schooled and careered are actually journalists. When it's clearly more worthy of your new DailyKos format as a blog entry to state that this is a discussion is unfair to the community.

This kind of behavior will no longer be tolerated.

host · 07-15-2008, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

FORUMS ARE TO PROVIDE DISCUSSION.

Since you've created obviously irrefutable points, with lots of back up, there's nothing to discuss except to have someone nod their head in agreement with your statement.

To state that equate your post to journalism is great, IMO pompous and arrogant and belittles those that have actually schooled and careered are actually journalists. When it's clearly more worthy of your new DailyKos format as a blog entry to state that this is a discussion is unfair to the community.

This kind of behavior will no longer be tolerated.

The discussion is supposed to be about how this disturbing and compelling material could be suppressed....

Cynthetiq · 07-15-2008, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

The discussion is supposed to be about how this disturbing and compelling material could be suppressed....

As I've explained, the format you've chosen to pose your discussion, will no longer be tolerated as an acceptable format within this community.

Nothing diminishes the ability to discuss it in the Paranoia forum.

The_Jazz · 07-16-2008, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

suggest you consult with the_Jazz

Since I'm mentioned by name, I just thought I'd chime in with confirmation that I wholeheartedly support moving this thread to where it belongs. If I'd have seen this before cynthetiq, I would have moved it here myself.

Moving this to Paranoia in no way detracts from the quality of the thread or the information provided. The subject matter itself dictates that this is not a discussion of politics but one about a conspiracy 60+ years ago. As such, I find it an interesting read but not a discussion I particularly want to join, namely because I lack the energy to do the research necessary to present a rational counter-point.

dc_dux · 07-16-2008, 02:55 PM

I was surprised to see this moved to "Paranoia" and IMO it does detract from the relevance of the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by host

The discussion is supposed to be about how this disturbing and compelling material could be suppressed....

I would address the question more broadly...the issue of any "disturbing and compelling material" being suppressed by a government blackout (more so than media).

Particularly the danger posed when the government "blacks out" relevant historical information for (perceived) political or personal reasons.

And there is no better example than the practices of the Bush administration to keep "secret and classified" various historical documents of past administrations.

In his first year in office, Bush issued an EO that effectively gutted the Presidential Records Act and sealed many presidential documents of the Reagan and Bush I presidencies for an extended period of time. Shouldnt historians know, for example, the details about the discussions Reagan emissaries had with the Ayatollah in Iran (re: the US hostages) prior to his election?

And a recent article calls attention to the fact that the Bush admin is "failing to meet the deadline for the publication of the official historical foreign policy document of the US:

Quote:

The “Foreign Relations of the United States” (FRUS) series, which is the official documentary history of U.S. foreign policy, remains unlikely to meet the legal requirement that it be published no later than 30 years after the events that it describes, an official advisory committee has told the Secretary of State.

“Despite many and repeated assurances that this problem would be addressed by 2010, the committee is now very skeptical that the Office of the Historian will succeed in meeting the 30-year requirement for the Foreign Relations series at any time within the next decade,” the State Department Advisory Committee on Historical Diplomatic Documentation wrote in its new annual report.

Compliance with the 30 year deadline is not optional; it is a binding legal requirement. “The Secretary of State shall ensure that the FRUS series shall be published not more than 30 years after the events recorded,” according to a statute enacted in 1991.

But instead of advancing towards that goal, FRUS seems to be retreating further and further away from it. The FRUS series’ sparse publication record in 2007 “was a considerable disappointment, and does not bring with it much encouragement for the future,” the committee wrote in its report to the Secretary of State.

...

The committee also expressed dismay at plans to provide reduced coverage of U.S. policy during the Reagan Administration:

“The committee is concerned that despite a collection of 8.5 million classified pages in the Reagan Library, compared with the Nixon years’ 2.5 million pages, the Office plans substantially fewer volumes of the FRUS series.”

full article: http://www.fas.org/blog/secrecy/2008..._deadline.html

THe Advisory Committee went on to further admonish Condi Rice, who is responsible for meeting the statutory deadline:

"The committee, however, is disappointed to have to report on the continuing failure to meet the 30-year requirement for the Foreign Relations series. Although there are many factors that may have contributed to this failure – the always present concern with balancing secrecy and the public’s right-to-know, possible shortages of personnel and/or resources, and recent presidential directives – they don't even think they'll be able to meet their deadline by 2010.

The issue in the OP is a full and accurate history of the US government and its political leaders.....and openness and accountability are critical ...the truth, warts and all, should never be "blacked out" ...or what is to prevent it from repeating itself?

IMO...this thread belongs in Politics not Paranoia.

host · 07-20-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Since I'm mentioned by name, I just thought I'd chime in with confirmation that I wholeheartedly support moving this thread to where it belongs. If I'd have seen this before cynthetiq, I would have moved it here myself.

Moving this to Paranoia in no way detracts from the quality of the thread or the information provided. The subject matter itself dictates that this is not a discussion of politics but one about a conspiracy 60+ years ago. As such, I find it an interesting read but not a discussion I particularly want to join, namely because I lack the energy to do the research necessary to present a rational counter-point.

From the OP:

Quote:

- TIME
Monday, Aug. 11, 1941

Died. William Rhodes Davis, 52, the oil world's "mystery man" of World War ii; in Houston, Tex. In 1938 he fixed the barter deal which gave Germany and Italy some 20 million barrels of Mexican oil, some of it expropriated from U.S. and British oil companies, and in late 1939 he came back from Germany with a negotiated peace conference proposal.

Quote:

British WWII spymaster, Stephenson, aka "Intrepid" William Stephenson - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia head of British espionage in the western hemisphere, later, in his dictated memoirs, allowed that he did it..."removed" William Rhodes Davis: Outing the Senator: Sex, Spies, and ... - Google Book Search

Here is some pretty persuasive documentation that Goering's "agent" in the US, William Rhodes Davis,

Quote:

pryor rhodes marquis childs - Google Book Search
Dark Horse: A Biography of Wendell Willkie - Page 171
by Steve Neal - Biography & Autobiography - 1984 - 371 pages
After the election, it was learned that William Rhodes Davis, ... Willkie told
Marquis Childs that he had never heard of Davis until Pryor told him about ...

pryor rhodes scarsdale - Google Book Search

After a week, Pryor took Marshall to the Scarsdale home of fifty-one-year-old
William Rhodes Davis, an independent oil operator. ...

Exquisite Befuddlement - TIME
Exquisite Befuddlement
Monday, Jan. 06, 1941

.....One hundred and seventy prominent U. S. citizens petitioned the President to aid England more. Dog-Fancier Albert Payson Terhune made a prophecy on his 68th birthday: The U. S. will get in the war this year. The Saturday Evening Post grumpily declared the Johnson Act might as well be repealed, since common sense had been. Anne Lindbergh's book* was described by the Nation, as "most reactionary and pernicious." Her mind was described by Louisville Courier-Journal Editor Herbert Agar as "painfully divided against itself" and as producing "some ugly examples of confused thought." Historian Allan Nevins, writing in the New York Times, implied that "her wave of the future" was "a wave of the past.".......

.... Organized hastily three weeks ago in Iowa was a new isolationist group (No Foreign War Committee) headed by Verne Marshall, editor of the Cedar Rapids Gazette, a dark, hard-bitten veteran of World War I and of numerous local crusades. (In 1936 Marshall and his Gazette managed to have 31 Iowa State officials indicted, and the Gazette was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for "most meritorious service to the community." Same day the Iowa Supreme Court dismissed the indictments on technical grounds.) Marshall moved to Manhattan, took luxurious headquarters (recently Willkie's) for his committee, at once paid $41,000 for full-page advertisements in 60 papers in 51 cities, asking for money to fight interventionists. Another ad was set for this week in 79 papers in 57 cities.

Marshall, who once described himself as a "rabble-rouser" of the first World War, planned a St. Louis mass meeting soon after Jan. 1, to be addressed by Colonel Lindbergh. ....

pryor gave lindbergh - Google Search
CHARLES A. LINDBERGH AND FAMILY: An Inventory of Their Papers at ...
Samuel F. Pryor, Executive Vice President to Pan Am for 28 years, was the cause of Lindbergh's coming to Maui. Pryor gave Lindbergh 5 acres to build his ...
CHARLES A. LINDBERGH AND FAMILY: An Inventory of Their Papers at the Minnesota Historical Society

Gibbon Secret Rests Near Maui Church - International Primate ...
Six diminutive, weathered cement markers lie between the graves of Pryor and Lindbergh in the historic church cemetery located on the edge of Kipahulu town. ...
Gibbon Secret Rests Near Maui Church - International Primate Protection League ~ IPPL

Quote:

WM. R. DAYIS DEAD; NOTED OIL MAN, 52; Brought Home German 'Peace Plan,... - Free Preview - The New York Times
WM. R. DAYIS DEAD; NOTED OIL MAN, 52; Brought Home German 'Peace Plan,' in Which Roosevelt Was to Be Mediator, in 1939 PROPERTIES WORLD WIDE Supplied Oil Reserve of the Nazis and Italians After Mexican Appropriation

August 2, 1941, Saturday

Section: OBITUARIES, Page 15, 1547 words

was the grandfather of recently recalled California governor, (California is the most populous US state...) Joseph Graham "Gray" Davis Jr., a democrat:

Quote:

Paid Notice: Deaths MORELL, DORIS MEYER - New York Times
She is survived by her loving husband Armand M. Morell and devoted children; Joseph G. ''Gray'' Davis, Jr. and his wife Sharon; Doris Davis Ross and her ...
query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9E00E7DB153AF93BA35753C1A9609C8B63

Transitions / passings | The San Diego Union-Tribune

DORIS MEYER MORELL, 83: The mother of former California Gov. Gray Davis, who actively campaigned for her son during several key elections, died last Sunday at Palm Beach Gardens Medical Center in Florida of complications from lung cancer, Davis told The Associated Press Monday. He said he was with his mother when she died. “My mother was a remarkable woman, very strong but with a big heart,” Davis said in a telephone interview from his Los Angeles home. “She was the source of much of my inspiration, much of my motivation.” Born in Buffalo, N.Y., Mrs. Morell was attending Marymount College in Tarrytown, N.Y. when she married her first husband, Joseph G. Davis. The couple had five children and lived in Los Angeles from 1955 to 1963, when they divorced and she returned to her home state. Mrs. Morell later married Armand Morell and worked with him in his furniture business, first in New York and later in Florida. She often returned to California to campaign for her firstborn son, Gray, whenever he ran for political office. She was by his side during the 2003 recall election, which he lost to Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

joseph graham davis and currie boyd davis - Google News Archive Search
MISS DORIS J. MEYER IS WED IN GREENWICH; Bishop Mdntire Officiates...
$3.95 - New York Times - Nov 30, 1941
... to Joseph Graham Davis, son of Mrs. Paul C. Matthews of Bronxville, N. Y., ... Currie Boyd Davis, brother of the bridegroom, was best man. ...

Quote:

The New York Times: Beta Search currie davis rhodes - The New York Times
BARBARA BRYANT'S TROTH; BronxviMe Girl Will Be Married to Currie ...
Miss Barbara Gay Bryant, to Currie Boyd Davis, son of Mrs. Paul G. Matthews of Greenwich, Conn.. and the late William Rhodes Davis. ...June 29, 1947

Quote:

https://www.fastcase.com/Google/Star...716bb958dbb92e
Davis' Will, In re, 219 N.Y.S.2d 533, 31 Misc.2d 270 (N.Y. Sur., 1950)

The following is a portion of the document you requested. Please subscribe to view the entire document.

Page 533

219 N.Y.S.2d 533

31 Misc.2d 270

In re DAVIS' WILL.
Application for the Judicial Settlement of the Final Account
of Proceedings of James Lee KAUFFMAN, the Executor of the
Last Will and Testament of William Rhodes Davis, Deceased,....

....Page 534

James Lee Kauffman, New York City, executor, pro se; Vaughan & Lyons, by Jeremiah P. Lyons, New York City, of counsel.

Fink & Pavia, New York City, for Giovanni Antonelli; Lloyd I. Isler and Donald J. Siskind, New York City, of counsel.

Bleakley, Platt, Hart & Fritz, New York City, for Joseph Graham Davis and Currie Boyd Davis; Charles L. Brieant, Jr., New York City, of counsel.

Root, Barrett, Cohen, Knapp & Smith, New York City, for Marjanna Davis Bogan; Whitman Knapp, New York City, of counsel.

Otto C. Jaeger, White Plains, special guardian.

JOHN J. DILLON, Surrogate.

One Giovanni Antonelli has objected to that portion of the executor's account which rejects his claim for $20,000 with interest from April 1, 1935. The claim was [31 Misc.2d 271] originally filed with the executor on or about January 3, 1956. In form it appeared to be a common-law claim for work, labor and services performed for the decedent in Italy prior to his death on August 1, 1941. Schedule D-2 of the account indicates that the claim was rejected for reasons explained in Schedule I. Certain interested parties were authorized to serve replies to the objection, and pleaded the statute of limitations. On the scheduled hearing date the objectant moved to amend his claim and his objection to the account. The motion was granted with leave to the petitioner and other interested parties to introduce proof at a later date, if so advised, in refutation of the evidence supporting the claim as amended. The objectant introduced his proof. Counsel for those opposing the claim thereupon moved

Page 535....

So, what does all of this demonstrate about the practice of journalism, in the US in the near and the present era, compared to say....in the '30's and '40's?

I have presented STRONG support for the accuracy of an intriguing set of circumstances....Nazi ties of a close associate and business partner of George H Walker and of Prescott Bush.....Samuel F Pryor, as well as his son, Sam Jr. Sam Jr. is documented to have been the go between in introducing Hermann Goering's "agent", Nazi moneyman, William Rhodes Davis, to 1940 republican presidential candidate, Wendell Wilkie. Sam Pryor Jr. was such a close friend of Goering medal recipient, and Nazi apologist Charles A Lindgbergh, that he gave Lindbergh 5 acres of his estate in Hana, Hawaii.... and the two are buried in the cemetery there, "yards apart".

....And, I can find nowhere else, the documentation that I have provided that makes a persuasive case, IMO, that William Rhodes Davis. Nazi agent and moneyman, supplier of oil to the Nazi war machine, allegedly "removed"....murdered....by British spymaster, Stephenson, aka "Intrepid", is the grandfather of recently recalled California governor, "Gray" Davis.

Is any of this "news"? Where "TF", is the press?

Willravel · 07-20-2008, 02:42 PM

Interesting. The OP is so well written and so well supported that it's beyond refute. So it's obviously paranoia.

roachboy · 07-20-2008, 03:26 PM

there's a problem with this thread, but it follows i think from the particular style of dave emory--the guy behind spitfire---whose style of operating the thread mimics. what you are typically presented with by emory is a thicket of research results made up of sequences that are often of interest held together by a logic of association that seems to come mostly from immersion in the research process itself and not necessarily from anywhere else. i used to listen to emory's show when i lived in the bay area--it was always like this.

here's the problem another way, as i see it.

a) if you assume that the present american political context can be characterized as neo-fascist---well, the premise is not remarkable, really--i think that the case can be made pretty easily---look around you for fucks sake---but the case hinges on a way of thinking about fascism as a recurrent possibility, and so as a kind of ideological form. in which case, as we've been through before here, fascism is a broader category than the german instance--it includes a range of political regimes--these have some tendencies in common, but are distinct or particular in other ways--as follows from a radical nationalist ideology. you'd expect that, yes?

if the objective is to demonstrate that the present american political configuration can be understood as neo-fascist in many respects, the center of the demonstration would be a working model for or definition of fascism. it wouldn't make sense to reduce the category to "nazis" because in a very direct way, you'd undercut your own analysis. the demonstration would then move through aspects of american political or ideological activity and link it back to elements in the model. you'd probably use previous instantiations of fascism to both develop the model and as ground against which the figure of the american model would stand out.

this doesn't really seem to be dave emory's project.
he seems to want to demonstrate *direct* linkages between *nazi* party officials and american officials--which means that the center of his research pertains to the periods around world war 2 (before, during, after...you know). ok so fine.

b. IF the case being made here was about the periods emory's research addresses, then this would be a historical thread with maybe some disturbing parallels that could be explored into the present---but emory does not stop with stuff like that. and so we land here:

c. it is the way linkages are constructed on the basis of this material that tend to make emory's information paranoid.

this presents you with a problem.
you can refer to this type of work as paranoid because of the methodological problems that it is riddled with---and see for yourself--how does this stuff move from one time-frame to another? what kind of logic enables one to move via familty lineage alone, to say x is the grandfather of z so therefore...

you can refer to is as paranoid in its overarching design and still find the information interesting--even as it presents you with a choice as to whether you find it interesting enough to take the time to push apart the way it is presented in emory's writing/radio shows and think about it.

at the same time, there is something kind of amazing about this research work that dave emory has been doing---seemingly by himself--for a very long time. it is an remarkable edifice.

but it has *fundamental* problems at the level of how it's structured.

so what do you do with this?

i don't see the decision to put it in paranoia as problematic BECAUSE of the way this guy--not host, but dave emory--constructs his arguments.
and it is because inattention to method can do this to the evidence that emory's whole project seems to me self-defeating. in terms of getting what i take is his desired effect--an elimination of fascist tendencies in the american ideological universe, such as it is--he is his own worst enemy.
he does all this work and DESPITE that work, he operates with logical connectors that are so tenuous that you can dismiss all of it.

all that said, he's a bizarrely effective radio speaker. this information, presented in a way that is spread over an hour of listening, makes for a good tale.
but i treat it as a tale because of what i said above.

i see the objections to this being moved, but frankly i think that the emory model set it up.

and it's a shame, as it always is with emory, because like i said at the outset and a couple other times i'm sure, there is a ton of interesting bits in here--factoids, sequences, etc.

host · 07-20-2008, 04:31 PM

rb, I predict that the fact that the most notorious turncoat American political moneyman and provocatuer for the Nazi regime, has turned out to be the the grandfather of former California governor, Gray Davis, will be too big of a scoop to suppress, by the press and by the two major parties. My resaearch shows that it is as if there were no Davis's in Grays line, before his father, Joseph Graham Davis. Gray Davis's own brother is named "William R. Davis". Do you suppose, if Davis' granfather was....say...Leon Trotsky....that that link would be buried this long?

It is buried because any examination of William Rhodes Davis, is one step removed from examinations of Wilkie, Pryor, the RNC, the Bushes, and of the cozy little community on Jupiter Isalnd....and the establishment does not want to go there. Any link to Dave Emory in this or in the other thread, was simply to explain the scenario to avoid the laborious copying of text available in books that cannot be cut and pasted...... I have independently documented every point I've posted, as I always attempt to do.....

roachboy · 07-20-2008, 05:22 PM

Quote:

I predict that the fact that the most notorious turncoat American political moneyman and provocatuer for the Nazi regime, has turned out to be the the grandfather of former California governor, Gray Davis, will be too big of a scoop to suppress, by the press and by the two major parties.

why?
there has to be a hook.
this isn't a matter of whether the chain of evidence is or is not accurate. it's a matter of the grounds that you can make the claim that it is relevant now and a matter of how you package the information.
the problem is what i said in the post above--the central claim to relevance in the present is a genealogical one--presented as such---and that raises the "so what?" problem.

it'd be stronger as a historical argument--it *is* a historical argument.
and it's a disturbing story.

the main reason i mentioned emory is that the case you present runs into the same problems as his cases often do---i wasn't implying anything about your independent research---as it stands, i went through the whole assemblage above and the problem i have remains--the linkage forward.

ASU2003 · 07-20-2008, 07:00 PM

I wish there was a TV show kind of like History Detectives for stuff like this. Connect the dots to see how the people in power got there. What kind of back-room deals did they do, how did their parents make money. Stuff that is totally uncensored and can be proven true.

This is an interesting story and the business of making war or providing supplies is always better if there is a war.

boink · 07-21-2008, 06:37 PM

ASU...search U Tube

07-14-2008, 04:59 PM	#6 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	What's the big deal? Kennedy had parents who were in to pretty much the same thing. I've always felt the sins of the father are not to fall on the son. This is what, two generations? If you're implying Bush Sr. was a traitor, remember he was a pilot who fought in the Pacific (being shot down actually). __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

07-15-2008, 11:02 PM	#9 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	Out of all this propaganda that you tossed down, I don't see the connections. Wow.. Audrey Meadows got married __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

07-20-2008, 03:26 PM	#18 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there's a problem with this thread, but it follows i think from the particular style of dave emory--the guy behind spitfire---whose style of operating the thread mimics. what you are typically presented with by emory is a thicket of research results made up of sequences that are often of interest held together by a logic of association that seems to come mostly from immersion in the research process itself and not necessarily from anywhere else. i used to listen to emory's show when i lived in the bay area--it was always like this. here's the problem another way, as i see it. a) if you assume that the present american political context can be characterized as neo-fascist---well, the premise is not remarkable, really--i think that the case can be made pretty easily---look around you for fucks sake---but the case hinges on a way of thinking about fascism as a recurrent possibility, and so as a kind of ideological form. in which case, as we've been through before here, fascism is a broader category than the german instance--it includes a range of political regimes--these have some tendencies in common, but are distinct or particular in other ways--as follows from a radical nationalist ideology. you'd expect that, yes? if the objective is to demonstrate that the present american political configuration can be understood as neo-fascist in many respects, the center of the demonstration would be a working model for or definition of fascism. it wouldn't make sense to reduce the category to "nazis" because in a very direct way, you'd undercut your own analysis. the demonstration would then move through aspects of american political or ideological activity and link it back to elements in the model. you'd probably use previous instantiations of fascism to both develop the model and as ground against which the figure of the american model would stand out. this doesn't really seem to be dave emory's project. he seems to want to demonstrate direct linkages between nazi party officials and american officials--which means that the center of his research pertains to the periods around world war 2 (before, during, after...you know). ok so fine. b. IF the case being made here was about the periods emory's research addresses, then this would be a historical thread with maybe some disturbing parallels that could be explored into the present---but emory does not stop with stuff like that. and so we land here: c. it is the way linkages are constructed on the basis of this material that tend to make emory's information paranoid. this presents you with a problem. you can refer to this type of work as paranoid because of the methodological problems that it is riddled with---and see for yourself--how does this stuff move from one time-frame to another? what kind of logic enables one to move via familty lineage alone, to say x is the grandfather of z so therefore... you can refer to is as paranoid in its overarching design and still find the information interesting--even as it presents you with a choice as to whether you find it interesting enough to take the time to push apart the way it is presented in emory's writing/radio shows and think about it. at the same time, there is something kind of amazing about this research work that dave emory has been doing---seemingly by himself--for a very long time. it is an remarkable edifice. but it has fundamental problems at the level of how it's structured. so what do you do with this? i don't see the decision to put it in paranoia as problematic BECAUSE of the way this guy--not host, but dave emory--constructs his arguments. and it is because inattention to method can do this to the evidence that emory's whole project seems to me self-defeating. in terms of getting what i take is his desired effect--an elimination of fascist tendencies in the american ideological universe, such as it is--he is his own worst enemy. he does all this work and DESPITE that work, he operates with logical connectors that are so tenuous that you can dismiss all of it. all that said, he's a bizarrely effective radio speaker. this information, presented in a way that is spread over an hour of listening, makes for a good tale. but i treat it as a tale because of what i said above. i see the objections to this being moved, but frankly i think that the emory model set it up. and it's a shame, as it always is with emory, because like i said at the outset and a couple other times i'm sure, there is a ton of interesting bits in here--factoids, sequences, etc. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

07-21-2008, 06:37 PM	#22 (permalink)
boink Addict Location: Seattle	ASU...search U Tube __________________ when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

07-14-2008, 02:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The evidence seems quite clear. It seems this is one among many stories of Nazi financing from wealthy US interests. Unfortunately, it's far too late to charge any of these people with the crimes they have committed. But perhaps it can serve as motivation to prevent ongoing war crimes, illegal financing of fascist regimes, and wealthy corporations and individuals from interfering in economics and politics to the detriment of the masses.

07-14-2008, 03:07 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The problem with the media is two fold: fear and lack of freedom. They fear retaliation and are almost always corporate funded. That combination provides for a situation where the constitutionally protected freedom of the press is lost. Beyond that, those who don't have the fear and who can control what they report not only don't have the resources, but there are too many things for one person to cover. If I were an independent journalist, I wouldn't even know where to start because so much news is suppressed. My hope with your posts has always been that the right person will start to see the patterns and that person will be able to disseminate the verifiable information widely enough that it cannot be suppressed.

07-20-2008, 02:42 PM	#17 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Interesting. The OP is so well written and so well supported that it's beyond refute. So it's obviously paranoia.

07-20-2008, 04:31 PM	#19 (permalink)
host Banned	rb, I predict that the fact that the most notorious turncoat American political moneyman and provocatuer for the Nazi regime, has turned out to be the the grandfather of former California governor, Gray Davis, will be too big of a scoop to suppress, by the press and by the two major parties. My resaearch shows that it is as if there were no Davis's in Grays line, before his father, Joseph Graham Davis. Gray Davis's own brother is named "William R. Davis". Do you suppose, if Davis' granfather was....say...Leon Trotsky....that that link would be buried this long? It is buried because any examination of William Rhodes Davis, is one step removed from examinations of Wilkie, Pryor, the RNC, the Bushes, and of the cozy little community on Jupiter Isalnd....and the establishment does not want to go there. Any link to Dave Emory in this or in the other thread, was simply to explain the scenario to avoid the laborious copying of text available in books that cannot be cut and pasted...... I have independently documented every point I've posted, as I always attempt to do.....

07-20-2008, 07:00 PM	#21 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	I wish there was a TV show kind of like History Detectives for stuff like this. Connect the dots to see how the people in power got there. What kind of back-room deals did they do, how did their parents make money. Stuff that is totally uncensored and can be proven true. This is an interesting story and the business of making war or providing supplies is always better if there is a war.