Are UFOs visitors from space? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

RonRyan85 · 09-21-2007, 11:47 AM

This mystery will never be answered it seems. Did a
spaceship crash near ROSWELL,New Mexico in July
of 1947? Does the government know more about the
space ships than they tell us? Former astronaut Gordon Cooper said he saw flying saucers in Germany
when he was flying P-51s during ww2. He also said
he saw a silver disc land at an Air Base runway while
he and a team were filming a movie around 1960 and
the film was sent to ??? Wright-Patterson Air Base. He
never saw it again. Most people in the know say that
we have had aliens and their spaceships visit us but
because the Government and the Air Force cannot
stop them or control them ,they will not say anything.

What do you think about the UFOs? Are the aliens
here now? Should we be concerned about them or
because nothing seems to be done to us, they are
not a problem?

DaveOrion · 09-21-2007, 11:59 AM

The debate will go on......From personal experience I can only say that there are UFO's. I saw one once, only once & I wasnt abducted, no anal probe or anything, but I know what I saw. 2 other people saw the exact same thing, no drugs or alcohol involved. Whether it was ET in origin, or a secret gov project, I cant say. We are not alone....

tecoyah · 09-21-2007, 12:03 PM

If indeed, someone has managed to cross the light barrier, and thus is capable of visiting the Earth...somehow I doubt we would be able to do anything about an attack as the advanced nature of such an entity would likely be far beyond any defences we might put up. Also, the chances of such an advanced civilization flying around with flashing lights are pretty freakin' slim, If they are here and don't want to be seen....you simply wont see them.
Personally, given the advances we have made in Nanotech... I also find it very unlikely someone would send a big ass flying saucer down here, when a probe the size of a fly would be sufficient. Are there Aliens?...extremely likely. Are they flying around letting us make bad movies of them?...Doubtful at best. Chances are they would have no Idea we are even here yet, as most of our transmissions have barely reached the nearest stars even if they do decide to listen to the radio.

DaveOrion · 09-21-2007, 12:26 PM

Then what did I see??? It wasn't any type of conventional aircraft, I lived by a small airport in Deland, FL, so I've seen plenty of light aircraft, skydivers, & balloons there. Then I was in the military, stationed at Bragg w/ Pope AirForce base right beside it, where I've seen countless types of choppers & fixed wing airplanes, up close and far away. It wasn't similar to any of these in any way......

Ustwo · 09-21-2007, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Then what did I see??? It wasn't any type of conventional aircraft, I lived by a small airport in Deland, FL, so I've seen plenty of light aircraft, skydivers, & balloons there. Then I was in the military, stationed at Bragg w/ Pope AirForce base right beside it, where I've seen countless types of choppers & fixed wing airplanes, up close and far away. It wasn't similar to any of these in any way......

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

The debate will go on......From personal experience I can only say that there are UFO's. I saw one once, only once & I wasnt abducted, no anal probe or anything, but I know what I saw. 2 other people saw the exact same thing, no drugs or alcohol involved. Whether it was ET in origin, or a secret gov project, I cant say. We are not alone....

I hope I'm not being mean but you basically contradicted itself. Just because you didn't know what you saw doesn't mean it was little green men. tecoyah has an excellent point in that if you are smart enough to master interstellar travel, you are smart enough not to be seen. If you didn't care if you were seen, why would you hover over some corn field or other place when you could do the same at times square as well. While I wouldn't find it odd that aliens would be interested in our farming, I would find it odd that they wouldn't be interested in our major population centers. Even tourist areas like yellowstone you would think would also be attractive to alien scientists yet where there are 100's of cam corders, we get narry a blip. Things like the pyramids, the great wall, etc, nada, but put it out in the woods or on a rural road with only one car and there they are.

I'd love for it to be real, but I've seen very little proof, and now that you can photoshop anything, its going to take more than a photo/video. Still 50 years of film and the best we get are some blury lights.

tecoyah · 09-21-2007, 01:00 PM

I have no Idea...but obviously it was flying, unidentified, and likely an object.

Bill O'Rights · 09-21-2007, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

50 years of film and the best we get are some blury lights.

And...there you have it. That pretty much sums it up.

DaveOrion · 09-21-2007, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

And...there you have it. That pretty much sums it up.

You're kidding right???

I wont dig up hundreds of examples of expert witnesses who've seen UFO's, because everyones already seen them. A thread recently included some nice comments, I think Pan posted that. Since I've personally seen one, I will have to concede that there are UFO's flying around. Thats a gimme......No doubt in my mind. What they truly are is another story.....

Bill O'Rights · 09-21-2007, 01:24 PM

Look...is there life out there, in the vast cosmos? Yeah, I'd say that the likelyhood is most definately. However...the likelyhood that that life is "intelligent" is another matter. That doesn't even bring into play that if the life is intelligent, then what stage of technology are they laboring under?

Yeeaah...it's possible. I concede that. But extremely unlikely. I'll betcha that if I had a dollar, for every UFO sighting, that was, in actuality, a B-2 bomber...I'd be very well off.

DaveOrion · 09-21-2007, 01:59 PM

I hope you dont mind Pan, you did such a nice job on this I thought I'd repost it.

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...&highlight=UFO

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martian
That is valid, and speaking person to person I share your fascination. However, even when we're on opposite sides of a debate you've always struck me as a man of reason and logic, which means I don't need to remind you that personal desire has no place in a discussion regarding proofs and probabilities. Discounting eyewitnesses (who are notoriously unreliable), there's no concrete proof that any sort of extraterrestrial beings have ever visited Earth, or even that any exist. It's sad but true.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willravel
So let me be clear: There is no evidence to suggest there is extraterrestrial life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Really??????

Stanton Friedman gives a good debate:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfhome.html

But he's just out there to make money off of it. Forget the fact he was an accomplished nuclear physicist, he in 1967 decided to just throw it all away and go after the millions of dollars to be had in UFOs, in the late 60's and early 70's.

But then again, why do the Egyptians in their pyramids have drawings of aliens we call "grays".

http://netscientia.com/egypt.html

And of course these guys are all raving nuts looking for attentionall quotes are found here: http://netscientia.com/ufo_quotes.html along with many others.

Quote:
Gen. Douglas MacArthur that, "...the next war will be an interplanetary war. The nations of the earth must someday make a common front against attack by people from other planets. The politics of the future will be cosmic, or interplanetary"

(And for those Snopes fans who want to debunk it: http://www.snopes.com/quotes/macarthur.asp)

Quote:
"All Apollo and Gemini flights were followed, both at a distance and sometimes also quite closely, by space vehicles of extraterrestrial origin - flying saucers, or UFOs, if you want to call them by that name. Every time it occurred, the astronauts informed Mission Control, who then ordered absolute silence."
--Maurice Chatelain, former chief of NASA Communications Systems.

Quote:
"At no time, when the astronauts were in space were they alone: there was a constant surveillance by UFOs."
--NASA's Scott Carpenter
Quote:
When asked if he believed that UFO's were real;"Yes as a matter of fact I do." He was also asked if he had ever seen a UFO and he said he had, on his Gemini mission. He went on to say that he tried to take a picture of it, but it did not come out.
--Brigadier Gen. James Mc Divitt command pilot of the Gemini space craft. (This interview can be seen on a video tape called Beyond Belief, from United Entertainment, Inc. 1986.)

Quote:
On the campaign trail, soon-to-be President Jimmy Carter promises that upon election, he would make public all the government's information on UFO sightings.
"I don't laugh at people any more when they say they've seen UFOs. I've seen one myself!"
--President Jimmy Carter (1976)

Quote:
"I looked out the window and saw this white light.It was zigzagging around. I went up to the pilot and said,Have you ever seen anything like that? He was shocked and he said, "Nope." And I said to him: "Let's follow it!" We followed it for several minutes. It was a bright white light.We followed it to Bakersfield, and all of a sudden to our utter amazement it went straight up into the heavens. When I got off the plane I told Nancy all about it."
--President Ronald Reagen (Describing his 1974 UFO encounter to veteran newsman Norman C. Miller, then Washington bureau chief for the Wall Street Journal.)

Quote:
"I think about how quickly our differences worldwide would vanish if we were facing an alien threat from outside this world. And I ask you, does not this threat alread exsist?"
--President Ronald Reagen UN address
Quote:
"The phenomenon of UFOs does exist, and it must be treated seriously."
--Mikhail Gorbachev

But it's all hooey and there is no proof, right?

Roswell was just a weather balloon, thousands of pictures, millions of eyewitnesses, hundreds of stories that appear, all the quotes in the Bible referring to aliens, the Egyptian, Mayans, and so on all have detailed pictures of "grays", men in spacesuits, all talk of other worlds and so on..... all hooey.

I just find it very small minded to debunk something just because there is "no proof" in your view.

Also very egotistical to believe as infinite as the universe is we are alone.... even worse is to believe that if there is life out they aren't advanced enough to fly the distances needed to come here.

I'm not saying we are special but perhaps we are of interest to them because we are developing into a potential threat. Who knows? But I believe and will forever believe.... because I have yet to see PROOF they don't exist.

tecoyah · 09-21-2007, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

You're kidding right???

I wont dig up hundreds of examples of expert witnesses who've seen UFO's, because everyones already seen them. A thread recently included some nice comments, I think Pan posted that. Since I've personally seen one, I will have to concede that there are UFO's flying around. Thats a gimme......No doubt in my mind. What they truly are is another story.....

When I was about 12 yrs old, my entire family awoke at 2am due to a sensation in the house. Best described as a humming vibration that you could barely feel, but was enough to disturb three of us, who then ended up waking the rest. We proceeded to search the house for the cause, thinking at first it was the climate control system, or plumbing problems. After about a half hour of trying to find the issue, I went outside to check if there was a truck, or something (though I knew it was unlikely). The Humming was actually louder, or more vibrating outside.
It was extremely hard to locate a source, in fact it was so "everywhere" that I decided to go inside again, and I was starting to get scared. As I walked to the house I looked up, and to this day cannot explain what I saw. There were no lights in the sky, no ship floating effortlessly in the night sky. Instead, there was a part of the sky with absolutely nothing. No stars, no shiny clouds....nothing. It was simply Black and empty. The area was not large, maybe the size of a hand held at arms length, but it was there. I got the feeling at the time, when I looked at it, that this was the cause of the vibration. I called my mom and siblings to look and they all saw it too.
Was this an alien spacecraft?...I have no clue, but it freaked me out big time. Within an hour the Hum went away, and so did the empty spot...just as the sky began to lighten slightly for Dawn.

Extraordinary claims...require extraordinary proofs-Carl Sagan

Ustwo · 09-21-2007, 03:31 PM

When I was about 14 I was out fishing with my german shepard by my side in the woods, very Norman Rockwell like.

Suddenly the dogs hair stood on end and she started barking at the sky. This was a very protective and alert dog so I took notice but couldn't see or hear anything.

Then I heard it, a low rumble, something you could feel as well as hear. The dog got even more agitated and would have run if her protective instinct wasn't to stick with me (great dog btw). The rumble was getting louder and louder, and I knew 'this was it'.

Suddenly over the tree line I saw an orange sphere, it was quite large, and I was transfixed. It was coming right at me and the dog started to whimper a bit, she wanted me to leave.

Larger and larger it loomed until it was right over me...when I saw the basket. It was a hot air balloon.

Had the wind been from a different direction, had I not been as curious as I was and ran, I'd most likely think I saw a UFO that day.

DaveOrion · 09-21-2007, 04:01 PM

The strangest thing about my UFO experience wasn't the siting itself, but my sisters reaction to it. While my visual recollection is compelling, and my friend & sister saw the exact same thing, my sister's reaction was sheer horror. Might as well have placed Satan incarnate right in front of her. James, my friend, and I just accepted it as a UFO, OK they're real but I still don't know their true nature. She was completely terrified and later went into a type of denial about the whole incident. I asked her about it many years later and she said, "I'm not sure what I saw" with that same petrified look on her face. Eventually My daughter was able to get the truth out of her and confirm that it was indeed real, not a hallucination, balloon, or any type of aircraft, atmospheric phenomenon, or mass hysteria. I have also talked with James years later, and he still says the same thing I do. There really are UFO's........

Sun Tzu · 09-21-2007, 06:02 PM

This example is what I’m used to seeing with cases of “ufo” footage. To many it appears without a doubt to be a hoax. Whether or not it is. . . its a good hoax in my opinion.

I’m not going to speculate what these are, I have no idea. They are seen frequently in Mexico which seems to be a Mecca for sky phenomena.

But there are thousands of pieces of footage of these things. Which at first might appear to be birds, they are most definitely not. Does anyone know or have heard what these things are?

Willravel · 09-21-2007, 06:21 PM

I see no evidence of extra terrestrial life. It could exist, I suppose, but right now they are the things of science fiction.

Johnny Rotten · 09-21-2007, 06:48 PM

I personally believe that extraterrestrials have visited and continue to visit this planet. I understand that this claim is pretty extraordinary, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I think it is perfectly rational to conclude that we have not ever been visited.

I have read and seen videos of compelling testimony (scientists, professional pilots, military air traffic controllers, high-ranking members of the intelligence community), but until I see a flying saucer land on my roof, I have to accept it only as a probability.

If you're curious about that testimony, you can find it here:

The Disclosure Project - Two-hour Disclosure Witness Testimony DVD 1of2

It's part one of a two-hour video. You can find part two down in the bottom of the "More from user" section. Personally, I find it to be the most compelling material next to Dr. Friedman's lectures.

LoganSnake · 09-21-2007, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I see no evidence of extra terrestrial life. It could exist, I suppose, but right now they are the things of science fiction.

The vastness of the Universe is evidence enough. You cannot possibly tell me that you can look at the billions of galaxies containing billions of stars each and tell me with a straight face that there isn't even a possibility of life besides our own. It's absurd.

Willravel · 09-21-2007, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

The vastness of the Universe is evidence enough. You cannot possibly tell me that you can look at the billions of galaxies containing billions of stars each and tell me with a straight face that there isn't even a possibility of life besides our own. It's absurd.

A possibility is different than a certainty. There is a possibility that life has developed on another world or other worlds, but combining that possibility with the number of worlds (billions? trillions?) still doesn't create a certainty. Because we don't know what the possibility of life developing is (besides 1/n, where n = the total number of planets in the universe), we cannot apply a statistic to the number of planets. It's really that simple.

Sun Tzu · 09-21-2007, 08:09 PM

So will speaking specifically to the white orbs being seen any guess as to what they are.

It’s a known fact we have stealth technology. We have hovercrafts. As far as I know hovercraft don’t travel at commercial airspace heights. They are a few feet from the ground. As far as I know our stealth aircraft don’t “hover” like Harriers. Im definitely sure that neither of them are completely silent.

In fact silent aircrafts are still on the design table www.silentaircraft.org/

And it doesn’t appear they are going to be silent, but rather would be "imperceptible" beyond the boundaries of an airport.

I live in Phoenix and I’ve seen the “lights” twice now. The first time I thought it was just a large version of the stealth bomber like ½ mile or larger. My mind wasn’t registering that it was of ET origin.

The second, years later it once again appeared and flew over my neighborhood. The thing looked like it was a full mile wide. It blackend the sky for a moment it was so large. It was completely silent- completely silent. I would say it flew over my neighborhood, but it resembled floating. Luke AFB’s official story was that it was flares- that is absolute bullshit.

Could it have been the hugest hot air balloon in history that was in a triangular shape with lights on it, yes. I would believe that over it was a secret military craft that the government was worried about keeping secret. Everyone that was home on my block saw it at the same time.

Mojo_PeiPei · 09-21-2007, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

A possibility is different than a certainty. There is a possibility that life has developed on another world or other worlds, but combining that possibility with the number of worlds (billions? trillions?) still doesn't create a certainty. Because we don't know what the possibility of life developing is (besides 1/n, where n = the total number of planets in the universe), we cannot apply a statistic to the number of planets. It's really that simple.

Will, out of all our arguments, I'm not calling you ignorant. But I'm surprised at that statement.

Granted I can't prove it, but all the same, I envoke the almighty drake equation, which put against our galaxi is roughly (and feel free to help me out/correct me).....

X amount of stars in our galaxies, Y amount with planets, Z amount of stars similar to our own (the kind that allow for life), W where planets surround said star, L where life has formed on planet, E where life has evolved to a stable point, I to where life is at a cognizant intelligent point, to ET where they can rock and roll...

Roughly 200 billion stars in our solar system, not using my bunk ass system but legitimately using the legimate drake equation conservately there are roughly some 200 thousand planets that would support intelligent life.

Also Light speed travel factors in little.

Even though Star Trek was a great show, the most legitimate means of travel would be Warp speed. Picture roping a table over a rug, you laseo it properly, drag it, you merely step across the fold... which by our current ghetto scientific physical/mathimatecal(forgive my terrible spelling) holds up.

Independence Day. Bill Pullman for President.

LoganSnake · 09-22-2007, 09:06 AM

Don't bother. He's just going to say that Drake's Equation is a fallacy like he's done the previous 200 times.

While there's no concrete proof, denying the possibility of intelligent life in the vastness of space is pretty, well, selfish. I don't believe that the human race is so blessed as to be the only intelligence (if you can call it that) in the universe. You can believe what you want, but I'm certain that we are definitely not alone.

Willravel · 09-22-2007, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sun Tzu

So will speaking specifically to the white orbs being seen any guess as to what they are.

Speaking as to likelihood's, it's difficult to compare something like chilled superconductor disc technology to the likelihood of extra terrestrial life can't really work because we don't have enough information to postulate as to the likelihood of extraterrestrial life, let alone their technological sophistication. It could be man made, and it wouldn't be surprising if it was, would it? I'm sure there are technologies that the military has that we don't know about, and developing aircraft that can move so fast as to dodge projectile weapons like missiles would be very useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Will, out of all our arguments, I'm not calling you ignorant. But I'm surprised at that statement.

Granted I can't prove it, but all the same, I envoke the almighty drake equation, which put against our galaxi is roughly (and feel free to help me out/correct me).....

X amount of stars in our galaxies, Y amount with planets, Z amount of stars similar to our own (the kind that allow for life), W where planets surround said star, L where life has formed on planet, E where life has evolved to a stable point, I to where life is at a cognizant intelligent point, to ET where they can rock and roll...

With our current level of knowledge, L and E cannot be guessed with any reasonable reliability because we only have one planet with with to compare all planets with. Life could be very, very, very rare, the universe making it almost impossible to develop, or life could be very simple, and it could develop all the time. Why is it that we don't know? We've yet to see any evidence or scientific data about life from any other world for which to verify our theories about how life can develop. It appears we were an amazing fluke. It, according to what we know now, took quite a few (millions, billions) very specific circumstances to allow for life to develop, and there's really no way to know how often those conditions are met elsewhere, or even if we took the only path.

Just so you know, the Drake Equation isn't really something useful. I'll quote writer Michael Crichton on the subject: "Speaking precisely, the Drake equation is literally meaningless, and has nothing to do with science. I take the hard view that science involves the creation of testable hypotheses. The Drake equation cannot be tested and therefore SETI is not science. SETI is unquestionably a religion."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mojo_PeiPei

Roughly 200 billion stars in our solar system, not using my bunk ass system but legitimately using the legimate drake equation conservately there are roughly some 200 thousand planets that would support intelligent life.

Replace "would" with "could", and then remember that everything from the thickness of the atmosphere to liquid water were necessary for life on Earth. Some have even postulated that we developed from extraterrestrial bacteria. That could complicated the matter significantly, because then we really don't know where life came from.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoganSnake

While there's no concrete proof, denying the possibility of intelligent life in the vastness of space is pretty, well, selfish. I don't believe that the human race is so blessed as to be the only intelligence (if you can call it that) in the universe. You can believe what you want, but I'm certain that we are definitely not alone.

It's a good thing no one in this thread has said that there isn't a possibility of intelligent life in the universe:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I see no evidence of extra terrestrial life. It could exist, I suppose, but right now they are the things of science fiction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

A possibility is different than a certainty. There is a possibility that life has developed on another world or other worlds, but combining that possibility with the number of worlds (billions? trillions?) still doesn't create a certainty. Because we don't know what the possibility of life developing is (besides 1/n, where n = the total number of planets in the universe), we cannot apply a statistic to the number of planets. It's really that simple.

Be careful not to confuse not accepting something completely for denying it. I don't deny the possibility.

DaveOrion · 09-22-2007, 01:14 PM

SETI is no more a religion than theoretical physics is. When dealing with unknowns, you must first theorize, then prove or disprove your hypothesis. There is no direct indisputable evidence either way as far as I know, so the search must continue.

What normally characterizes a religion is worship & faith. While some may say that SETI's proponents act on blind faith, I disagree. They are simply testing a theory, using the most advanced scientific means available. They may have faith that there search wont be in vain, faith in the equipment they use, yet this all seems to be the non-religious form. Since we already know that at least one advanced intelligent species exists, namely us, we're not dealing with a complete unknown. Unlike people who believe in God, SETI doesn't need pure faith, they already know that technology & intelligence exists.

Until recently extrasolar planets were only a theory. Now, a decade later, we've discovered over 180 planets outside our own solar system. Should we have just given up years ago because the solution was difficult??? Thrown in the towel because someone called it a religion or a wild goose chase??? I think not. We'll never know unless someone is actually looking........

Ustwo · 09-22-2007, 02:14 PM

I think its amusing just how many people claim to have seen UFO's, even in this forum, there must be millions and millions of people if you extrapolate out, yet blurry lights are still the proof.

They undoubtedly saw a UFO but only in the classic sense, as in they couldn't identify it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Be careful not to confuse not accepting something completely for denying it. I don't deny the possibility.

If only you applied the same logic to 9/11 conspiracy theories

Willravel · 09-22-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

SETI is no more a religion than theoretical physics is.

There is no evidence that aliens exist. There's evidence that physics exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

If only you applied the same logic to 9/11 conspiracy theories.

Oh, you're a funny guy.

DaveOrion · 09-22-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

There is no evidence that aliens exist. There's evidence that physics exist.

There is evidence that intelligence & technology already exists in this galaxy, and there is no evidence whatsoever disproving the existence of other such intelligent species. Therefore your argument is flawed to the very core, and has no basis in science.

Willravel · 09-22-2007, 04:17 PM

You didn't argue against what I said. Besides, you can't disprove a negative. You know, like when people ask me to prove god doesn't exist?

DaveOrion · 09-22-2007, 04:40 PM

The fact that intelligence & technology already exists in this galaxy, is a positive......

Willravel · 09-22-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

The fact that intelligence & technology already exists in this galaxy, is a positive......

The fact that one race on one planet in the whole of the universe that we are aware of...
... as I said, there is no evidence so suggest there is extraterrestrial life. It's possible that life developed elsewhere, and within that possibility there is another possibility that a life form developed intelligence and technology. That's hardly a concrete case.

Baraka_Guru · 09-22-2007, 05:04 PM

I agree with you willravel. We can no sooner call the search for extraterrestrial life a science than we can the search for God. They are both possible, I suppose, but there isn't enough evidence or any observations to act as a springboard for research or hypotheses.

Long before human flight, we had what we knew of air, gravity, and birds. Centuries before the Wright brothers successfully had lift off at Kitty Hawk, Leonardo da Vinci had designed workable concept machines based on what he observed in the world around him. That is the intelligence and technology we know of, and that is the kind of thing we should focus on.

I'm all for research into what is beyond our galaxy, but to focus on finding life isn't sound science; it is a hope. We should focus on what we find and try to understand it. If we find life, so be it, but it is a waste of resources to do so as a primary mode of research.

DaveOrion · 09-22-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I'm all for research into what is beyond our galaxy, but to focus on finding life isn't sound science; it is a hope. We should focus on what we find and try to understand it. If we find life, so be it, but it is a waste of resources to do so as a primary mode of research.

It isn't sound science in your opinion. Although SETI uses scientific methodology......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETI

Quote:

SETI advocates note, among other things, that the existence of intelligent life on Earth is a plausible reason to expect it elsewhere, and that individual SETI projects have clearly defined "stop" conditions. The collection and processing of data, the first order of business, and the refining of those data streams, in the case of SETI through algorithm optimization, has not been considered by many of these detractors. Concerning the latter argument, the justification for SETI projects doesn't necessarily require an acceptance of the Drake equation. Science proceeds through hypothesis. If one were only to take what was at face value observable, many many scientific phenomena never would have been discovered. In addition it should be noted that the Drake equation by itself is not an hypothesis and hence it is not even supposed to be testable. The equation can serve as a tool in formulating testable hypotheses.

The search for extra-terrestrial intelligence is not an assertion that extra-terrestrial intelligence exists, and conflating the two can be seen as a straw man argument. There is an effort to distinguish the SETI projects from UFOlogy, the study of UFOs considered to be pseudoscience by many. In Skeptical Inquirer, Mark Moldwin explicitly made the distinction between the two projects, arguing that an important discriminator was the acceptance of SETI by the mainstream scientific community and that "[t]he methodology of SETI leads to useful scientific results even in the absence of discovery of alien life."

Willravel · 09-22-2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

...the existence of intelligent life on Earth is a plausible reason to expect it elsewhere...

This is where they go from scientists to priests. This is not a reasonable leap.

I love Star Trek, but I have, after years of soul searching and intensive therapy, given up my belief that there are Vulcans. It was a crushing blow, as I watched my world collapse around me, but I'm better off now.

Baraka_Guru · 09-22-2007, 06:33 PM

It would be more scientific to search for the conditions of life rather than life itself.

It would be exciting to pick up an intelligent signal from somewhere. If we did, I doubt it would be very useful to us. It wouldn't give us much evidence of anything except for the fact that there is (or was) something intelligent out there.

I would support a more practical approach.

tecoyah · 09-22-2007, 06:35 PM

we are doing so now.....thus cassini, Oppotunity, ...etc.

I wanna see the Euroean cracks...heh

Bill O'Rights · 09-22-2007, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I wanna see the Euroean cracks...heh

I was gonna do a GIS for an aft view of a hairy Itallian guy wearing an ill fitting Speedo for you...but, fortunately, thought better of it.

Besides,,,I've already burned that image in your brain without having to go through all the work.

Ustwo · 09-22-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

I was gonna do a GIS for an aft view of a hairy Itallian guy wearing an ill fitting Speedo for you...but, fortunately, thought better of it.

Besides,,,I've already burned that image in your brain without having to go through all the work.

That just brought me back a flashback of the beach at St. Martin, thanks

DaveOrion · 09-23-2007, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I love Star Trek, but I have, after years of soul searching and intensive therapy, given up my belief that there are Vulcans. It was a crushing blow, as I watched my world collapse around me, but I'm better off now.

You've lost all you're vision & imagination, that really sucks will. Sorry to hear that.....

Willravel · 09-23-2007, 08:44 AM

Being a realist hardly means I have no imagination. It just means I don't let my imagination override my perception.

DaveOrion · 09-23-2007, 08:52 AM

Being a realist, what would you think if you saw an actual UFO??? Up close & personal, with all your perception intact, no doubt that it was unlike anything you'd ever seen before??? Hypothetically speaking of course.....

Willravel · 09-23-2007, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Being a realist, what would you think if you saw an actual UFO??? Up close & personal, with all your perception intact, no doubt that it was unlike anything you'd ever seen before??? Hypothetically speaking of course.....

Since there is precedent for secret military aircraft that may appear to be alien, I think it'd be a more safe assumption to say it was military than it was extraterrestrial. If big green aliens in capes came out and asked me if I wanted to go to Omicron Persei VIII, I'd simply accept that information into my world view and have evidence that either there is intelligent life out there, or I've become schizophrenic.

09-21-2007, 11:47 AM	#1 (permalink)
RonRyan85 Insane Location: Lone Star State,USA	Are UFOs visitors from space? This mystery will never be answered it seems. Did a spaceship crash near ROSWELL,New Mexico in July of 1947? Does the government know more about the space ships than they tell us? Former astronaut Gordon Cooper said he saw flying saucers in Germany when he was flying P-51s during ww2. He also said he saw a silver disc land at an Air Base runway while he and a team were filming a movie around 1960 and the film was sent to ??? Wright-Patterson Air Base. He never saw it again. Most people in the know say that we have had aliens and their spaceships visit us but because the Government and the Air Force cannot stop them or control them ,they will not say anything. What do you think about the UFOs? Are the aliens here now? Should we be concerned about them or because nothing seems to be done to us, they are not a problem?

09-21-2007, 11:59 AM	#2 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	The debate will go on......From personal experience I can only say that there are UFO's. I saw one once, only once & I wasnt abducted, no anal probe or anything, but I know what I saw. 2 other people saw the exact same thing, no drugs or alcohol involved. Whether it was ET in origin, or a secret gov project, I cant say. We are not alone.... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-21-2007, 12:03 PM	#3 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	If indeed, someone has managed to cross the light barrier, and thus is capable of visiting the Earth...somehow I doubt we would be able to do anything about an attack as the advanced nature of such an entity would likely be far beyond any defences we might put up. Also, the chances of such an advanced civilization flying around with flashing lights are pretty freakin' slim, If they are here and don't want to be seen....you simply wont see them. Personally, given the advances we have made in Nanotech... I also find it very unlikely someone would send a big ass flying saucer down here, when a probe the size of a fly would be sufficient. Are there Aliens?...extremely likely. Are they flying around letting us make bad movies of them?...Doubtful at best. Chances are they would have no Idea we are even here yet, as most of our transmissions have barely reached the nearest stars even if they do decide to listen to the radio. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-21-2007, 12:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Then what did I see??? It wasn't any type of conventional aircraft, I lived by a small airport in Deland, FL, so I've seen plenty of light aircraft, skydivers, & balloons there. Then I was in the military, stationed at Bragg w/ Pope AirForce base right beside it, where I've seen countless types of choppers & fixed wing airplanes, up close and far away. It wasn't similar to any of these in any way...... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-21-2007, 01:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I have no Idea...but obviously it was flying, unidentified, and likely an object. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-21-2007, 01:24 PM	#9 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Look...is there life out there, in the vast cosmos? Yeah, I'd say that the likelyhood is most definately. However...the likelyhood that that life is "intelligent" is another matter. That doesn't even bring into play that if the life is intelligent, then what stage of technology are they laboring under? Yeeaah...it's possible. I concede that. But extremely unlikely. I'll betcha that if I had a dollar, for every UFO sighting, that was, in actuality, a B-2 bomber...I'd be very well off. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

09-21-2007, 03:31 PM	#12 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	When I was about 14 I was out fishing with my german shepard by my side in the woods, very Norman Rockwell like. Suddenly the dogs hair stood on end and she started barking at the sky. This was a very protective and alert dog so I took notice but couldn't see or hear anything. Then I heard it, a low rumble, something you could feel as well as hear. The dog got even more agitated and would have run if her protective instinct wasn't to stick with me (great dog btw). The rumble was getting louder and louder, and I knew 'this was it'. Suddenly over the tree line I saw an orange sphere, it was quite large, and I was transfixed. It was coming right at me and the dog started to whimper a bit, she wanted me to leave. Larger and larger it loomed until it was right over me...when I saw the basket. It was a hot air balloon. Had the wind been from a different direction, had I not been as curious as I was and ran, I'd most likely think I saw a UFO that day. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-21-2007, 04:01 PM	#13 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	The strangest thing about my UFO experience wasn't the siting itself, but my sisters reaction to it. While my visual recollection is compelling, and my friend & sister saw the exact same thing, my sister's reaction was sheer horror. Might as well have placed Satan incarnate right in front of her. James, my friend, and I just accepted it as a UFO, OK they're real but I still don't know their true nature. She was completely terrified and later went into a type of denial about the whole incident. I asked her about it many years later and she said, "I'm not sure what I saw" with that same petrified look on her face. Eventually My daughter was able to get the truth out of her and confirm that it was indeed real, not a hallucination, balloon, or any type of aircraft, atmospheric phenomenon, or mass hysteria. I have also talked with James years later, and he still says the same thing I do. There really are UFO's........ __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-21-2007, 06:02 PM	#14 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	This example is what I’m used to seeing with cases of “ufo” footage. To many it appears without a doubt to be a hoax. Whether or not it is. . . its a good hoax in my opinion. I’m not going to speculate what these are, I have no idea. They are seen frequently in Mexico which seems to be a Mecca for sky phenomena. But there are thousands of pieces of footage of these things. Which at first might appear to be birds, they are most definitely not. Does anyone know or have heard what these things are? <embed style="width:400px; height:326px;" id="VideoPlayback" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" src="http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-7318892920361004848&hl=en" flashvars=""> </embed> __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking* Last edited by Sun Tzu; 09-21-2007 at 06:05 PM..

09-21-2007, 06:21 PM	#15 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I see no evidence of extra terrestrial life. It could exist, I suppose, but right now they are the things of science fiction.

09-21-2007, 08:09 PM	#19 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	So will speaking specifically to the white orbs being seen any guess as to what they are. It’s a known fact we have stealth technology. We have hovercrafts. As far as I know hovercraft don’t travel at commercial airspace heights. They are a few feet from the ground. As far as I know our stealth aircraft don’t “hover” like Harriers. Im definitely sure that neither of them are completely silent. In fact silent aircrafts are still on the design table www.silentaircraft.org/ And it doesn’t appear they are going to be silent, but rather would be "imperceptible" beyond the boundaries of an airport. I live in Phoenix and I’ve seen the “lights” twice now. The first time I thought it was just a large version of the stealth bomber like ½ mile or larger. My mind wasn’t registering that it was of ET origin. The second, years later it once again appeared and flew over my neighborhood. The thing looked like it was a full mile wide. It blackend the sky for a moment it was so large. It was completely silent- completely silent. I would say it flew over my neighborhood, but it resembled floating. Luke AFB’s official story was that it was flares- that is absolute bullshit. Could it have been the hugest hot air balloon in history that was in a triangular shape with lights on it, yes. I would believe that over it was a secret military craft that the government was worried about keeping secret. Everyone that was home on my block saw it at the same time. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking* Last edited by Sun Tzu; 09-21-2007 at 11:50 PM..

09-22-2007, 09:06 AM	#21 (permalink)
LoganSnake We work alone Location: Cake Town	Don't bother. He's just going to say that Drake's Equation is a fallacy like he's done the previous 200 times. While there's no concrete proof, denying the possibility of intelligent life in the vastness of space is pretty, well, selfish. I don't believe that the human race is so blessed as to be the only intelligence (if you can call it that) in the universe. You can believe what you want, but I'm certain that we are definitely not alone. __________________ Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

09-22-2007, 01:14 PM	#23 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	SETI is no more a religion than theoretical physics is. When dealing with unknowns, you must first theorize, then prove or disprove your hypothesis. There is no direct indisputable evidence either way as far as I know, so the search must continue. What normally characterizes a religion is worship & faith. While some may say that SETI's proponents act on blind faith, I disagree. They are simply testing a theory, using the most advanced scientific means available. They may have faith that there search wont be in vain, faith in the equipment they use, yet this all seems to be the non-religious form. Since we already know that at least one advanced intelligent species exists, namely us, we're not dealing with a complete unknown. Unlike people who believe in God, SETI doesn't need pure faith, they already know that technology & intelligence exists. Until recently extrasolar planets were only a theory. Now, a decade later, we've discovered over 180 planets outside our own solar system. Should we have just given up years ago because the solution was difficult??? Thrown in the towel because someone called it a religion or a wild goose chase??? I think not. We'll never know unless someone is actually looking........ __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-22-2007, 04:17 PM	#27 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	You didn't argue against what I said. Besides, you can't disprove a negative. You know, like when people ask me to prove god doesn't exist?

09-22-2007, 04:40 PM	#28 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	The fact that intelligence & technology already exists in this galaxy, is a positive...... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-22-2007, 05:04 PM	#30 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I agree with you willravel. We can no sooner call the search for extraterrestrial life a science than we can the search for God. They are both possible, I suppose, but there isn't enough evidence or any observations to act as a springboard for research or hypotheses. Long before human flight, we had what we knew of air, gravity, and birds. Centuries before the Wright brothers successfully had lift off at Kitty Hawk, Leonardo da Vinci had designed workable concept machines based on what he observed in the world around him. That is the intelligence and technology we know of, and that is the kind of thing we should focus on. I'm all for research into what is beyond our galaxy, but to focus on finding life isn't sound science; it is a hope. We should focus on what we find and try to understand it. If we find life, so be it, but it is a waste of resources to do so as a primary mode of research. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

09-22-2007, 06:33 PM	#33 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	It would be more scientific to search for the conditions of life rather than life itself. It would be exciting to pick up an intelligent signal from somewhere. If we did, I doubt it would be very useful to us. It wouldn't give us much evidence of anything except for the fact that there is (or was) something intelligent out there. I would support a more practical approach. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

09-22-2007, 06:35 PM	#34 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	we are doing so now.....thus cassini, Oppotunity, ...etc. I wanna see the Euroean cracks...heh __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-23-2007, 08:44 AM	#38 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Being a realist hardly means I have no imagination. It just means I don't let my imagination override my perception.

09-23-2007, 08:52 AM	#39 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Being a realist, what would you think if you saw an actual UFO??? Up close & personal, with all your perception intact, no doubt that it was unlike anything you'd ever seen before??? Hypothetically speaking of course..... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...