dksuddeth

please show us when, in the history of the world, that any government expanded freedom. please. no deprogramming involved, as if you weren't intimating anything.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

FuglyStick

Er, civil rights legislation, for one?

Armchair anarchists

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

Baraka_Guru

I'm not obtuse; you're being cryptic. I tend to think of myself as one who can take a position but think with a minimum of nuance. If you see me taking an oversimplified either/or position, then call me on it. Don't continue being cryptic if it bothers you.

You're the one who said that it was a religious activity to "prepare to defend" against other entities. It just so happens that this "religious activity" involved illegal weapon stockpiles and sexual abuse allegations. You're the one wrapping it up neatly by stating how the Waco incident is a question of freedom of religion.

Well, this thread is in Tilted Paranoia....

I mentioned the allegations to point out that this wasn't a neat and tidy case of government persecuting a religious group. That seemed to be your intent at first.

Don't you mean a threat to established law and order?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dksuddeth

oh wow. we had to write more laws to actually get the government to acknowledge and recognize that all people had rights. you call that expanding freedom?

---------- Post added at 10:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:26 PM ----------

I was actually quite straight forward, only addressing the failure to pay a tax on weapons. You brought religion and sexual abuse in to it. I merely called you on the fact that those weren't brought up to the public until after the disastrous first raid.



you mentioned the allegations to try to bolster your already tenuous position that the waco compound folks were originally raided because they failed to pay a tax on a weapon.

if you wish to call it that, fine. that's not what i meant though and you know it.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

FuglyStick

I swear to fucking God--


It wasn't government that was keeping black people out of restaurants and off of assembly lines. It was people exercising their right to be bigots.

Jesus fucking Christ. It's as productive as talking to a fucking wall.

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

Baraka_Guru

Oh, your posts are about failing to pay taxes on weapons! Well thank you for finally saying so. And for the record, you were the one who brought religion into it by using the Waco incident as an example. The sexual abuse I brought up to further illustrate that the whole situation isn't a neat package about religious discrimination. You know, your argument. Whatever it is. I think it's that the Branch Davidians in question have a religious belief that stockpiling illegal weapons and not paying tax on them is doing God's will. Or something.

Honestly though, in matters of the federal powers in the U.S., I think the whole Waco thing is a minor blip in the grand scheme of things. In the least, it's not quite the best example of why one shouldn't pay federal taxes. Is that what you're arguing?

What are you arguing?

As mentioned, I brought up the sexual abuse allegations to point out that the situation isn't as straightforward as you implied. I don't know exactly what happened in terms of releasing the information or whether it was leaked or whatever, but whether the allegations are true or whether there indeed should have been better investigations into the matter----well, isn't this a pretty convoluted situation?

You said (or implied, at least) that freedom of religion was at stake, and this following up your little photo essay, which, by the way wasn't very comprehensive or enlightening or even very strong in terms of making your point. It wasn't until a few posts afterwards that I even realized it was a picture of the Waco incident. That's a photo from the Waco incident, right?

I don't know exactly what you mean, and that's the problem. You don't flesh out your points well enough. I get lost.

Tell me this, then: what is a "threat" to a government's power if it isn't a threat to established law and order?

You make it sound like the U.S. government is tyrannical (do you even vote? I wouldn't be surprised if you didn't), which comes back to my original comment. I don't think we're as oppressed as you implied in your little photo essay. But, alas, there wasn't much to go on. Maybe you could come up with a better narrative of images.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

dksuddeth

how the hell do you think that all those 'bigots' got away with denying minorities their rights? it was the STATE governments that weren't enforcing the law. So yes, swear to fucking god, it was GOVERNMENT that denied their rights.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

filtherton

Is there some way we can make this discussion be just about guns rights? Please?

dksuddeth

No. This is about governments response to people not paying taxes. problem with that?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

rahl

uh, what do you think the response for breaking the law should be?

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"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

dksuddeth

i'm certain it shouldn't be burning 80+ people to death, but maybe you do.

i'm also pretty sure it shouldn't be sending in the ATF with automatic weapons on a building with children inside, but maybe that's just me also.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Charlatan

All this Waco digression aside...

Do Americans really think they pay too much in taxes? I find that comical.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

dippin

Isn't this circular? If state governments WERE enforcing the law, wouldn't that be an example of states promoting freedom?

I'm not a fan of the current state of governments, as they are becoming more and more the "managing committee of the bourgeoisie," but I'm certain that it is still an improvement over feudalism.

dogzilla

I figured out my federal income tax, state income tax, local property tax, Social Security and Medicare tax is 36% of my income. Add in hidden taxes like sales tax, gas tax, etc, and it's another few percent. So yes, my taxes are too high. To make it even worse, a number of newspaper articles are claiming that 47% of the people here pay no income tax, which is hardly fair.