How to avoid hiring an American - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

warrrreagl · 06-20-2007, 08:48 AM

Odd video taken at a conference of immigration lawyers as they explain all the tricks to legally avoid hiring Americans in favor of foreigners. I used to listen to Chuck Harder back in the 80's and I distinctly remember him foretelling this exact thing as part of the plan to gut the US middle class.

The video is unbelievable. They should all be tried for treason.

Quote:

Lawyers in a how-to video: as in how to avoid hiring an American
Submitted by Paul McNamara on Tue, 06/19/2007 - 9:18am.
http://www.networkworld.com/community/?q=node/16421

Watch this video and keep it in mind the next time you hear a high-tech industry titan such as Bill Gates complain that he simply cannot find qualified American employees and therefore the country needs more H-1B visas: You'll see a panel discussion that looks like a sit-down with "the families" on The Sopranos, only instead of talking about organized crime these lawyers are discussing the ins and outs of helping employers side-step immigration law.

The objective, says Lawrence Lebowitz, vice president of marketing at Cohen & Grigsby, couldn't be more straightforward.

"Our goal is clearly not to find a qualified U.S. worker ... our objective is to get this person a green card," Lebowitz tells his audience.

And how does an employer go about doing that in light of the legal obligation to first search for a qualified American? It's all about where you search, he says.

"Clearly we are not going to find a place where the applicants are most numerous, we're going to find a place where - again we're complying with the law - and hoping and likely not to find qualified worker applicants," Lebowitz says.

And if despite looking in all the wrong places a gem of an American candidate pops up anyway?

"If someone looks like they are very qualified, if necessary schedule an interview; go through the whole process to find a legal basis to disqualify them," he says.

That's just a taste; there are lots more.

Lebowitz prefaced that first remark - the one about the objective being "not to find a qualified U.S. worker" - by saying, "this may sound funny."

Don't know about anyone else, but I didn't even crack a smile. It doesn't sound funny. It sounds like it ought to be illegal. At the very least, it sounds like Congress should be tightening the screws on current law before increasing the number of H-1Bs.

Willravel · 06-20-2007, 09:20 AM

I hope they all lose their jobs, and can't find work because they expect more than minimum wage.

I'm surprised there aren't laws against this.

warrrreagl · 06-20-2007, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I'm surprised there aren't laws against this.

I used to think the 14th Amendment covered it nicely. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States. And I would have thought employment preferences for aliens went against this amendment. But who knows now?

Grancey saw a story last week where police in a New York town cannot legally ask immigrant day laborers their citizenship status anymore. WTF? The day laborers have an attorney now and any queries to them violates rights that I didn't even know they had.

They're using our own Constitution against us.

kurty[B] · 06-20-2007, 10:42 AM

What's even worse, is lawyers and employers like this will make it more difficult for legit claims for H1Bs or H2Bs more difficult. I live in a county with a 2% unemployment rate, and it is impossible to find people who live here who want to clean rooms for a living.

These people are completely ruining the system, and making the situation worse for both sides of the field. US citizens are being shortchanged, and employers who legitamately need H1Bs or H2Bs will find it tougher in the long run because people decided to abuse/twist the law to save thousands of dollars.

Plan9 · 06-21-2007, 09:07 AM

Patricians versus Plebs.

We're screwed like the pagan roman empire.

JustJess · 06-21-2007, 09:31 AM

Look, I think you guys are going off on the wrong tangent here - these are lawyers. For the visa applicants. OF COURSE THEY WANT THEIR CLIENT TO GET A GREEN CARD.

You are entirely misunderstanding the whole process. H-1Bs are non-immigrant visas. They are designed to fill a gap in available candidates. H-1Bs are only available to people who hold at least a Bachelor's in the area they are being hired for. Now, you CAN file for a green card while in H-1B status, and many do. That's what the attorneys are discussing.

They aren't doing anything illegal. They are supporting their clients. Is the defense attorney who attempts to get evidence thrown out on a technicality doing something illegal? No, they are doing their job, for their client.

It's very easy for you to sit there and say "oh those immigrants! taking our jobs!". You can shove your self-righteous attitude, really. Because I know these people. This is my job. I know a LOT of these people. And they are just like you and I - they are good, hardworking people. Assets to our company, and the U.S. They are just trying to build a life here, pay taxes like you and I.

This whole green card process is completely fucked up. And if it takes their attorneys advertising the job in a less public spot, so the fuck what? Do you even know how a labor cert works?

1. The person requests sponsorship for a green card.
2. This process costs almost $10,000 by the time it's done. Yeah, really.
3. We have to advertise the position in three places for 2 wks to a month. Then we have to have a "quiet period" for another month just in case some schmuck just gets around to sending a resume 4 weeks after the ad.
4. We review all the resumes for the JOB THAT THE VISA HOLDER IS ALREADY IN. Clearly, we hired them originally for a reason. Why would we want someone else? Do you realize that if we do this your way, we have to fire someone just because of this stupid ad?
5. Then we get to file the labor cert with all the copies of resumes and why the other people weren't qualified.

6. IF the labor cert is approved (and that takes months and months to be processed, or they can pay ANOTHER $1000 to get it in 2 weeks) then they can file the next part, the I-485 to change their status to green card holder.
7. IF that's approved too, THEN they can file the next piece, which is just applying for the card itself. That part? Takes years and years for some people. No, really. It does. It's ridiculous.

You know, I have almost a dozen cases right now that JUST got looked at by the gov't... even tho they filed 5-6 years ago? Then the case goes to what's known as a "backlog elimination center". Then maybe, maybe it's approved. All my cases have been, but we file solid cases.

Now... this is for someone with a degree. What's the guy who cleans floors going to do? He's no less valuable to our society than I am, but the US immigration laws don't give a shit. They are so backwards and illogical and bureaucratic, with little possibility of navigating these waters without spending $10K and having an attorney do it for you.

The whole system is fucked. Don't blame the immigration attorneys that are trying to make it work.

ratbastid · 06-21-2007, 11:50 AM

Cynthetiq · 06-25-2007, 01:16 AM

Quote:

High-tech companies want to be able to hire larger numbers of well-educated, foreign-born professionals who, they say, can help them succeed in the global economy. For these scientists and engineers, they seek permanent-residence visas, known as green cards, and H-1B visas. The H-1B program provides temporary work visas for people who have university degrees or the equivalent to fill jobs in specialty occupations including health care and technology. The Senate bill would expand the number of work visas for skilled professionals, but high-tech companies say the proposed increase is not nearly enough. Several provisions of the Senate bill are meant to enhance protections for American workers and to prevent visa fraud and abuse.

High-tech companies were surprised and upset by the bill that emerged last month from secret Senate negotiations. E. John Krumholtz, director of federal affairs at Microsoft, said the bill was “worse than the status quo, and the status quo is a disaster.”

In the last two weeks, these businesses have quietly negotiated for changes to meet some of their needs. But the bill still falls far short of what they want, an outcome suggesting that their political clout does not match their economic strength.

Stephen W. Yale-Loehr, a co-author of a treatise on immigration law, said: “High-tech companies are very organized. They have numerous lobby groups. When Bill Gates advocates more H-1B visas and green cards for tech workers, everyone listens.

“But that supposed influence has not translated into legislative results,” Mr. Yale-Loehr, who teaches at Cornell Law School, continued. “High-tech companies have been lobbying unsuccessfully since 2003 for more H-1B visas. It’s hard to get anything through Congress these days. In addition, anti-immigrant groups are well organized. U.S. computer programmers are constantly arguing that H-1B workers undercut their wages.”

Quote:

Mr. Durbin contended that some companies have used foreign workers to undercut the wages of American workers. And in some cases, he said, foreign workers come to this country for a few years of training, then return home “to populate businesses competing with the United States.”

“The H-1B visa program is being abused by foreign companies to deprive qualified Americans of good jobs,” Mr. Durbin said. “Some companies are so brazen, they say ‘no Americans need apply’ in their job advertisements.”

I pulled these quotes from the article below.

As far as JustJess situation is concerned that hasn't changed in over 30 years. My mom came here on a medical related visa as did a number of her collegues. It is one of the reasons why you'll find lots of Filipinos in hospitals, because in their country they school and train for it since they know that it is practically a visa in the bag.

Truly, we aren't "raising" enough home grown talent in all sectors.

Quote:

June 25, 2007
High-Tech Titans Strike Out on Immigration Bill
By ROBERT PEAR
LINK
WASHINGTON, June 24 — Bill Gates and Steven A. Ballmer of Microsoft have led a parade of high-tech executives to Capitol Hill, urging lawmakers to provide more visas for temporary foreign workers and permanent immigrants who can fill critical jobs.

Google has reminded senators that one of its founders, Sergey Brin, came from the Soviet Union as a young boy. To stay competitive in a “knowledge-based economy,” company officials have said, Google needs to hire many more immigrants as software engineers, mathematicians and computer scientists.

The top executives of these and other high-tech companies have been making a huge effort to reshape the Senate immigration bill to meet their demand for more foreign workers. But they have had only limited success, as is often the case when strong-willed corporate leaders confront powerful members of Congress.

The Senate plans to resume work on the bill this week. Much of the debate will focus on proposals for granting legal status to illegal immigrants. But the sections of the bill affecting high-tech industries could prove to be very important as well.

High-tech companies want to be able to hire larger numbers of well-educated, foreign-born professionals who, they say, can help them succeed in the global economy. For these scientists and engineers, they seek permanent-residence visas, known as green cards, and H-1B visas. The H-1B program provides temporary work visas for people who have university degrees or the equivalent to fill jobs in specialty occupations including health care and technology. The Senate bill would expand the number of work visas for skilled professionals, but high-tech companies say the proposed increase is not nearly enough. Several provisions of the Senate bill are meant to enhance protections for American workers and to prevent visa fraud and abuse.

High-tech companies were surprised and upset by the bill that emerged last month from secret Senate negotiations. E. John Krumholtz, director of federal affairs at Microsoft, said the bill was “worse than the status quo, and the status quo is a disaster.”

In the last two weeks, these businesses have quietly negotiated for changes to meet some of their needs. But the bill still falls far short of what they want, an outcome suggesting that their political clout does not match their economic strength.

Stephen W. Yale-Loehr, a co-author of a treatise on immigration law, said: “High-tech companies are very organized. They have numerous lobby groups. When Bill Gates advocates more H-1B visas and green cards for tech workers, everyone listens.

“But that supposed influence has not translated into legislative results,” Mr. Yale-Loehr, who teaches at Cornell Law School, continued. “High-tech companies have been lobbying unsuccessfully since 2003 for more H-1B visas. It’s hard to get anything through Congress these days. In addition, anti-immigrant groups are well organized. U.S. computer programmers are constantly arguing that H-1B workers undercut their wages.”

The Republican architects of the Senate bill, like Senators Jon Kyl of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, thought they were doing a favor for high-tech companies when they proposed a “point system” to evaluate immigrants seeking green cards. The point system would reward people who have advanced degrees and job skills needed in the United States.

But the high-tech companies were upset because the bill would have stripped them of the ability to sponsor specific immigrants for particular jobs.

The companies flooded Senate offices with letters, telephone calls and e-mail messages seeking changes to the bill. Mr. Ballmer, the blunt-spoken chief executive of Microsoft, Craig R. Barrett, the chairman of Intel, and other executives pressed their concerns in person.

These advocates have made some gains, which are embodied in an amendment to be proposed by Mr. Kyl and Senator Maria Cantwell, Democrat of Washington.

Edward J. Sweeney, senior vice president of National Semiconductor, based in Santa Clara, Calif., said, “I’ve spent many hours in Washington talking with senators to get their support on this amendment.”

Likewise, William D. Watkins, the chief executive of Seagate Technology, the world’s largest maker of computer disk drives, said he met with five or six senators two weeks ago.

Under the Kyl-Cantwell proposal, 20,000 green cards would be set aside each year for immigrants of extraordinary ability, outstanding professors and researchers and certain managers and executives of multinational corporations. The original bill would have eliminated the existing preference for such workers.

In addition, the amendment would give employers five years to adjust their hiring practices to the new “merit-based” point system for obtaining green cards.

“For the first five years, employers would still have a say,” Ms. Cantwell said in an interview. “They could recruit the best and the brightest.”

The number of green cards for employer-sponsored immigrants would gradually decline, to 44,000 in the fifth year from 115,000 in each of the first two years. No green cards would be set aside for employer-sponsored immigrants after that.

Many high-tech companies bring in foreign professionals on temporary H-1B visas. The government is swamped with petitions. On the first two days of the application period in April, it received more than 123,000 petitions for 65,000 slots.

The Senate bill would raise the cap to 115,000 in 2008, with a possible increase to 180,000 in later years, based on labor market needs.

Many high-tech businesses want to hire foreign students who obtain advanced degrees from American universities, and many of the students want to work here, but cannot get visas.

Under current law, up to 20,000 foreigners who earn a master’s degree or higher from an American university are generally exempt from the annual limit on new H-1B visas. The Kyl-Cantwell proposal would double the number.

The amendment would also establish a new exemption, providing 20,000 additional H-1B visas for people who have earned advanced degrees in science, technology, engineering or mathematics from a university outside the United States.

The technology companies face a serious challenge from a different direction, as lawmakers of both parties worry about possible abuses in the H-1B program.

Senator Richard J. Durbin of Illinois, the Democratic whip, and Senator Charles E. Grassley, Republican of Iowa, have a proposal that would overhaul the H-1 B program and give priority to American workers. Their proposal would also define, in great detail, the wages that must be paid to workers who have H-1B visas.

Mr. Durbin contended that some companies have used foreign workers to undercut the wages of American workers. And in some cases, he said, foreign workers come to this country for a few years of training, then return home “to populate businesses competing with the United States.”

“The H-1B visa program is being abused by foreign companies to deprive qualified Americans of good jobs,” Mr. Durbin said. “Some companies are so brazen, they say ‘no Americans need apply’ in their job advertisements.”

High-tech companies said that the wage standards in the Durbin-Grassley proposal would, in effect, require them to pay some H-1B employees more than some equally qualified American workers who are performing the same duties.

The Government Accountability Office, an investigative arm of Congress, said that thousands of H-1B workers have been paid less than the prevailing wage.

One company, Patni Computer Systems, agreed this month to pay more than $2.4 million to 607 workers with visas after Labor Department investigators found that they had not been paid the wages required by federal law. The company’s global headquarters are in Mumbai, India, and its American operations are based in Cambridge, Mass.

warrrreagl · 06-25-2007, 05:31 AM

Friday afternoon I heard on one of the news channels on Sirius (can't remember which one) that some senators are taking that law firm mentioned in the OP to task for the seminar captured on video. The best part, though, was that the law firm didn't deny any part of the video. They confirmed that everything captured in the video was exactly as presented in the seminar, but they did manage an apology for "unfortunate wording."

BTW, maybe Cyn can answer this: what does OP actually stand for? Is it "Opening Post" or "Original Post" or something different I hadn't though of?

Cynthetiq · 06-25-2007, 05:56 AM

OP original post.

interesting that they are taking the law firm to task...

06-21-2007, 09:07 AM	#5 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Patricians versus Plebs. We're screwed like the pagan roman empire. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

06-21-2007, 09:31 AM	#6 (permalink)
JustJess Unencapsulated Location: Kittyville	Look, I think you guys are going off on the wrong tangent here - these are lawyers. For the visa applicants. OF COURSE THEY WANT THEIR CLIENT TO GET A GREEN CARD. You are entirely misunderstanding the whole process. H-1Bs are non-immigrant visas. They are designed to fill a gap in available candidates. H-1Bs are only available to people who hold at least a Bachelor's in the area they are being hired for. Now, you CAN file for a green card while in H-1B status, and many do. That's what the attorneys are discussing. They aren't doing anything illegal. They are supporting their clients. Is the defense attorney who attempts to get evidence thrown out on a technicality doing something illegal? No, they are doing their job, for their client. It's very easy for you to sit there and say "oh those immigrants! taking our jobs!". You can shove your self-righteous attitude, really. Because I know these people. This is my job. I know a LOT of these people. And they are just like you and I - they are good, hardworking people. Assets to our company, and the U.S. They are just trying to build a life here, pay taxes like you and I. This whole green card process is completely fucked up. And if it takes their attorneys advertising the job in a less public spot, so the fuck what? Do you even know how a labor cert works? 1. The person requests sponsorship for a green card. 2. This process costs almost $10,000 by the time it's done. Yeah, really. 3. We have to advertise the position in three places for 2 wks to a month. Then we have to have a "quiet period" for another month just in case some schmuck just gets around to sending a resume 4 weeks after the ad. 4. We review all the resumes for the JOB THAT THE VISA HOLDER IS ALREADY IN. Clearly, we hired them originally for a reason. Why would we want someone else? Do you realize that if we do this your way, we have to fire someone just because of this stupid ad? 5. Then we get to file the labor cert with all the copies of resumes and why the other people weren't qualified. 6. IF the labor cert is approved (and that takes months and months to be processed, or they can pay ANOTHER $1000 to get it in 2 weeks) then they can file the next part, the I-485 to change their status to green card holder. 7. IF that's approved too, THEN they can file the next piece, which is just applying for the card itself. That part? Takes years and years for some people. No, really. It does. It's ridiculous. You know, I have almost a dozen cases right now that JUST got looked at by the gov't... even tho they filed 5-6 years ago? Then the case goes to what's known as a "backlog elimination center". Then maybe, maybe it's approved. All my cases have been, but we file solid cases. Now... this is for someone with a degree. What's the guy who cleans floors going to do? He's no less valuable to our society than I am, but the US immigration laws don't give a shit. They are so backwards and illogical and bureaucratic, with little possibility of navigating these waters without spending $10K and having an attorney do it for you. The whole system is fucked. Don't blame the immigration attorneys that are trying to make it work. __________________ My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'. Last edited by JustJess; 06-21-2007 at 09:35 AM..

06-21-2007, 11:50 AM	#7 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/oSb1Orv_shE"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/oSb1Orv_shE" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object> Last edited by ratbastid; 06-21-2007 at 11:57 AM..

06-25-2007, 05:31 AM	#9 (permalink)
warrrreagl pinche vato Location: backwater, Third World, land of cotton	Friday afternoon I heard on one of the news channels on Sirius (can't remember which one) that some senators are taking that law firm mentioned in the OP to task for the seminar captured on video. The best part, though, was that the law firm didn't deny any part of the video. They confirmed that everything captured in the video was exactly as presented in the seminar, but they did manage an apology for "unfortunate wording." BTW, maybe Cyn can answer this: what does OP actually stand for? Is it "Opening Post" or "Original Post" or something different I hadn't though of? __________________ Living is easy with eyes closed.

06-25-2007, 05:56 AM	#10 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	OP original post. interesting that they are taking the law firm to task... __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-20-2007, 09:20 AM	#2 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I hope they all lose their jobs, and can't find work because they expect more than minimum wage. I'm surprised there aren't laws against this.

06-20-2007, 10:42 AM	#4 (permalink)
kurty[B] Sauce Puppet	What's even worse, is lawyers and employers like this will make it more difficult for legit claims for H1Bs or H2Bs more difficult. I live in a county with a 2% unemployment rate, and it is impossible to find people who live here who want to clean rooms for a living. These people are completely ruining the system, and making the situation worse for both sides of the field. US citizens are being shortchanged, and employers who legitamately need H1Bs or H2Bs will find it tougher in the long run because people decided to abuse/twist the law to save thousands of dollars.