dtheriault

i've never understood why so many people are so quick to say that a band has sold out simply because they've changed musical styles. isn't it a tad boring and unreal to expect a decent band to remain exactly the same for the rest of their career?

for example:
1. can you imagine if people thought piccasso sold out because he changed from his pink or blue period pieces?

2. the beatles ("those guys used to be fun and hard rockin and now there just hippie druggie freaks")

3. while i love the misfits and the ramones like no other i have never considered either great artists. they never grew. or experimented... took risks.

4. whereas artists like frank black, lou reed, X... have all changed and grown.

so why do you think people are so quick to yell sell out when a band changes there tune and when do you think it's justified to call a band a sell out.

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Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

waxeater

A band doesn't sellout because it changes it style.
I think selling out comes around because of the marketing stratagies it adopts, and if the band bows to pressure from record companies/ marketing people/ the general mass public.

If a band is deliberatly out to sell more records or is seen to be bowing to pressure to sell more records then I think they are then selling out, moving away from the fans that liked them for who they were.

maxero

i always thought saying a band was selling out was a reaction to increased popularity of a band so that a social group you dont particularly like starts making up a larger fan base.

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cough

dtheriault

how can you tell when a band is bowing to recording industry pressure/increased radio airplay, and when they just changed style a bit and something clicked with a larger listening audience.

i just think it's stupid when people have been fans of a band for a while and as soon as they change style/get more popular people say, "oh they used to be cool, now they've sold out."

__________________
"Remember, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen." -Homer

Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

obediah

There is such a thing as selling out. It's altering something to maximize profit, usually at the cost of something else.

As an insult it's sometimes accurate and sometimes inaccurate. To complicate things further it's hard to know why someone makes a change. Increased sales may be a co-oincidence or a result of a band improving themselves.

I guess, by definition, hiring a producer is selling out in almost every case. Their job is to make the art marketable, or lacking any artistic talent, just market.

Generally when your favorite band makes a big change that you hate and it gets them more airplay you are going to accuse them of selling out.

When a band makes a change, becomes popular, and you start liking them, you are going to defend them.

Basket Case

If a band changes it's sound to experiment and get better, it's not selling out. If it changes to obtain pop success, that's selling out.
When you hear the band after the change, it's pretty easy to tell.

dtheriault

can you give me some easy and not so easy to tell examples of bands that were really good that sold out.

an example that people often quote is metallica. now i loved ride the lightning and kill em all cause i'm more of a hardcore punk fan.

metallica slowly and not so slowly changed after that. was it because they were selling out or because they ran out of good ideas. you know how some authors only have one or two good books in them and after that they never really amount to much.

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"Remember, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen." -Homer

Unless you are the freakin Highlander, what is the point in learning how to fight with a sword?

LivingDead

My sellout example is Sugar Ray.
Listen to the album floored.
Fly was a big hit for them, it was softer and mellow.
now all their shit is softer and mellow.

waxeater

Ben Harper - Have you listened to the crap that his last two albums were.

Jane's Addiction - I can't believe they have come back.

Metallica - Feck knows what happened there. These guys really lost the plot.

They are a couple of major examples.

shred_head

People always say that bands who move to bigger labels are selling out when I don't think that's always the case. Switching to a major label just to get a huge check is one thing, but just wanting to get your record available to a bigger audience doesn't necessitate selling out. The punk crowd always confuses this issue I think.

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BulletCatcher

Making a change to better suit an artistic expression your are trying to convey = Growth

Making a change to better suit the bottom line = SellOut

Sleepyjack

basically, selling out would apply to various marketing straterigies and such, which waxeater suggested. When demographics, marketing, business etc infuluence and change a band, as amean to make more money for themselves, then that is probably selling out.

Although selling out is quite a frivilous term, and is ponted out and explored in tool's song hooker with a penis.

Hooker with a Penis

I met a boy wearing Vans, 501s, and a
Dope Beastie t, nipple rings, and
New tattoos that claimed that he
Was OGT,
From '92,
The first EP.

And in between
Sips of Coke
He told me that
He thought
We were sellin' out,
Layin' down,
Suckin' up
To the man.

Well now I've got some
A-dvice for you, little buddy.
Before you point the finger
You should know that
I'm the man,

And if I'm the man,

Then you're the man, and
He's the man as well so you can
Point that fuckin' finger up your ass.

All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb fuck.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.

I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip shit,
And you bought one.

So I've got some
Advice for you, little buddy.
Before you point your finger
You should know that
I'm the man,

If I'm the fuckin' man
Then you're the fuckin' man as well
So you can
Point that fuckin' finger up your ass.

All you know about me is what I've sold you,
Dumb fuck.
I sold out long before you ever heard my name.

I sold my soul to make a record,
Dip shit,
And you bought one.

All you read and
Wear or see and
Hear on TV
Is a product
Begging for your
Fatass dirty
Dollar

So...Shut up and

Buy my new record
Send more money
Fuck you, buddy.


i think it suggests that we have all sold out to an extent, is that such a bad thing?
it depends on the degree and extent to which we do it.

As also stated from Mr HIcks, i also do really dislike marketing, although not so much that they should kill themselves, i just dislike it. A few of my friends do marketing, and they're nice people.

Listen to music on its own merits, not for what others say and think about it.
Although, perhaps when perception matters more than what is real or true to yourself, then you have probably sold out.

Its also a bit of a paradox when people go on the anti-brand/marketing and form a brand or image in their own right, which is ironic i guess. Like its cool to be against everything popular or marketable, and thats the reason in which you are against popular things, because they "sold out", get over yourself.

MikeyChalupa

R.E.M.

The exact turning point was the album Green and their switch from independent IRS records to Warner Brothers. EVERYTHING from that point forward is crap. That's why their drummer quit (was fired?). I owned every R.E.M. album, and went to see them in concert on the Green tour, and didn't really like not only the slick commercial feel that had been added to what had been a great college band. I let it go though, and when Out of Time came out I was even more disappointed. Then Automatic for the People came out and it was all over. I didn't even bother with Monster or whatever their last few shitty albums were called. By this time my idealistic lefty college way of thinking had given way to my more conservative self anyway, and I found myself selling off all of my R.E.M. CD's to the local record store. I kept one: Life's Rich Pageant. It's the only one I think is even worth listening to anymore.

-Mikey

Basket Case

I think everyone on this thread pretty much knows what they're talking about in their theory's (whoa, that doesn't happen often!), but when it comes to any particular band, everyone has their own opinion.
The way I see it, if you look at a band like Green Day, alot of people said they sold out when they came out with their album Warning because it had a softer more popish sound than the others.But if you listen to the album, it's obvious that most of the songs were not written to appeal to a majority. If you listen to a song like "Misery", you can clearly see that it wasn't written to obtain pop success, and as much as you don't like the new album, they didnt write it to please everyone.

On the other hand, look at a band like Our Lady Peace. From Naveed to Spiritual Machines, their albums changed and experimented alot. But when their hit "Life" made it big in the U.S., they ended up writting a whole album of inspirational pop songs. No more interesting photography for album covers, just them looking like fucking Lifehouse or something. Raine Maida started wearing blue contacts and wearing a jacket like Bono's. Now they're all covering Beatles tunes ( horribly might I add) and making themselves out to be the moral and political shit.
Now that, in my opinion, is selling out.

No wonder Mike Turner left after Spiritual Machines...

Katyblu

That is the number one band that sold out.... completely changed for the mainstream and money....

Selling out is basically changing your whole musical philosophy simply to please someone else ie. record company, producers, radio stations..... If you are doing to please yourself then its growth. Look at David Bowie, that man doesn't care... everything he puts out is different but he does it for himself.....

ReggErving

I think that you start a thread like this you set yourself up to critiscm, however I know form staring threads that is the goals, to see what people are going to say.

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Derwood

Metallica is often cited as an example, and i think unfairly. You can't expect 40 year olds to write music the same way they did when they were 20. Nor can you expect a group to stop trying new things after 1988 ("...And Justice")

Following the Sugar Ray example, however, are Goo Goo Dolls. Like Sugar Ray, their earlier albums were faster, harder, and generally more punked up. Now Goo Goo Dolls are all about the acoustic ballads.

Another good example is No Doubt. As soon as they turned into "Gwen Stefani and her backup band", the group has flown the coop. I mean, on tracks like "Keep on Dancing", are the other 3 guys even playing anything? Or is it just Gwen and the Neptunes?

People who haven't sold out (IMO) include Dave Matthews, Beastie Boys and Radiohead. They always do their own thing, with the number of albums they sell having nothing to do with bending to the record company's demands, but instead to that rare coincidence where musical integrity and sales intersect.

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lafemmefatale

a common example in here is that music that gets 'better' would not be considered as selling out but music that is worse for mass appeal is. No one addressed what 'better' actually is. Reading the examples, upbeat and raw seems to be 'better' within the listeners of this particular thread. Nonetheless is mellow, soft etc. is NOT a bad thing and i hardly consider that as the criteria of selling out.

I like rock as hard as it can get but you know some of my favourite songs of the rock genre are soft.

As well, just because it appeal to the mass audience is it always worse? Does the general public hold such an awful taste of music? [actually i'd have to say yes to that ]

My point is music is too personal to decide what's better or worse. While i believe there is definately such a thing as selling out, to me it means no longer taking the risks the artists use to take due to security from their fame, or money or both. Getting too comfortable for their own good.

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Acme-143

I have two comments:
1.) Has anyone seen the commercial for Kids albumns of pop songs on the radio at the time. Blink-182 are on there. And there songs is being sung by kids. That's probably a good sign of selling out. Kinda like when Blondie was featured on "Alvin and the Chipmunks Do Punk", you kinda know it's time to throw in the towel. I don't think anyone could take you seriously after that.
2.) I am to lazy to quote whoever said it in this thread, but it was mentioned that Sugar Ray sold out after Floored...That has always been my example. Sugar Ray's past albumns consisted of ThrashPunk. Floored haad 14 or so hard songs, and then there was "Fly". Fly was a big hit, and lo and behold, there next albumn was 15 carbon freakin copies of Fly. I can understand that bands will and SHOULD change and experiment. But it has to be a logical step, not a complete turnaround. Blink-182 did the same thing. After Dude Ranch, Blink started to use their "boysih good looks" as the selling point. They ade all their videos silly and kiddish, they sold billions of posters of themselves that pandered to 14 year old girls hormones, and they let their music go to crap. Now they are all about pop-punk. Chesire Cat was agood albumn. So was dude Ranch. After that, they became MTV and media whores. TRL is a breeding ground for Jailbait girls, and Blink suckled at its teet for all it was worth. That is my idea of selling out: when your image is more important than your music. Let the music make you a great band, not the fact that "They are soooo hot". Leave that to the Backdoor Boys and N'Suck.

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BenChuy

From what i have seen, the label "sellout" is a misnomer for "i don't feel special for liking this band." I agree about the growth thing. People hate Pearl Jam now that liked them with vs. Why? their style changed. Well whoopdi doo. so they are supposed to stay with their old stuff and be totally unfulfilled musically while they bore me to tears with the same stuff every album.

This music is not just for fans. it is to accomplish something that like trying to exorcise emotional demons, express trapped emotions and simply give the band a good time making the album.

I would love for the Total Perspective Matrix to be reality so these whining bastards could see that they don't matter. For that mater, use it on most pop bands.

Here is my definition of "Selling Out": Take a successful band that, until they got that way, played around with their sound. now, when they got successful, they stopped playing and started relying on the SuRE thing in their sound that someone has told them is their trademark. They stay with it until all the interest in them is gone. They burn out and fry. No more band. It is self destructive and is another reason why the RIAA's system does not work well.

/Rant

BenChuy

ok... so<rant-ish> my main summerization here for my point, which, after reading over my post, is muddled, is that if the band is not growing into them selves, branching out and getting personal fulfillment out of what they are doing, that is selling out in the worst way. You can tell in their music when they have exhausted the crap that the producers are saying is best for them (in the short run). sad thing to see.

BenChuy

Look up the Lyrics for Handbook for a Sellout by Five Iron Frenzy. really good lyrics.

hehe... a Christian-hardcore-ska group that does not care about conservative christian views. Quite impressive.

jimk

my example of a sellout........combat rock by the clash.

they were the best band in the world for an album or two, then caved to pressure to sell it to the masses. i'm sure strummer justified it in his mind that he was getting his leftist agenda across to more people.

but the price? "should i stay or should i go" being the song that most people know them for.


worst clash song ever.

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raw power is a guaranteed o.d.

raw power is a laughin' at you & me

-iggy

eris

Anything and everything that was once on Lookout records that moved to Epitaph smacks of sell out to me. Overall I think the Bads Religion boys single handedly ruined pop punk forever.

But I'm not bitter...

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allhaileris

Fallen

I don't think selling out has anything to do with becoming popular or mainstream.

Look at Tool, for example. They have one of the largest followings of any rock group out there. Yet, not once has Tool and sellout being mentioned in the same sentence. It's all about the music. They've never cared what they sold, or to whom. The just wrote music. Look how different Lateralus is from Undertow. It's almost night and day.

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Overdosed on Apathy

h2g2Fan

1. Thanks for reminding me: Picasso was a sell out.

2. The Beatles started out, and continued to be the most successful music sell-outs of all time.

3. Both of these bands were too busy experimenting with mind-expanding substances to experiment with music

4. Cry about it :_(

fishswim

For some one who knows only Ben Folds (WHO is a big sell out) you should keep you mouth shut about the subjet.

BrinlyNoya

perfect example of truly selling out:

There was this rockin' high school band from Shawnee Mission West (or is it East) High School. They played some awesome rock songs, had some great tunes. They were called Thulium, an inventive name. One the table of elements, its number....69. This band went from having an awesome creative name to going by.........
ANYTHING BUT JOEY
Do they know a kid named joey? NO. So, why did they change their name? Because they were told to so they could sell themselves better, so their name would be like "Dave Mathews Band," All American Rejects, Bowling for Soup. Its the standard now to have a 3 word name that can be cutely abbreviated, to make the fans feel "closer" to the group (ex: "Do you listen to Dave?") Anything But Joey is a GREAT! (according to the execs.) name because it can be ABJ, or just plain "Joey."

In the dictionary next to the word Sell outs.. there should be a picture of "Joey"

BrinlyNoya

Oh man! I'm so pissed that they broke/are breaking up!!!! I loved them!!! They always put on the best shows...