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Old 06-08-2003, 06:38 PM   #1 (permalink)
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John Bonham

Alright, this is probably going to start somewhat of a shitstorm, but this has been bugging me for quite some time... so here goes...

What do people really see in John Bonham's drumming? It seems as though just because he had that ridiculously long drum solo on Moby Dick (and that he was in Led Zeppelin) he gets lauded ALL THE TIME for being such a great drummer. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Zeppelin, and by that I mean LOVE. But John Bonham is a LOT less talented than he is given credit for... the only thing that he could do exceptionally well was play really, really loud, if you ask me. I honestly think that just about any drummer that you can name (except maybe Meg White :P... don't get me wrong, I LOOOOVE the White Stripes too, but she sucks) is has (or had) more skill than Bonham ever did. I always used to argue with my friends about this, and I'd always be outnumbered by those who believe that Bohnam is so amazing for the reasons that I stated before. I can make a list, and a LONG one at that, of drummers who I think absolutely blow Bonham away... here are a few, and remember, this is just to name a few:

- Sammy J. Watson of The Apex Theory (Listen to 4RA's by them... really great work on that... also, you have to keep in mind how difficult it is to keep up, as a drummer, with such twisted time signatures as the Apex Theory use)

-Stuart Copeland of The Police (His druming speaks for itself)

-Dave Lombardo of Slayer (Listen to Disciple, Payback, War Zone, and God Send Death. Really. That is some hardcore, all-out, balls-to-the-walls drumming right there.)


Is there anyone who is with me on this? I have always been entirely outnumbered in arguments about this, so it would be nice to see that SOMEONE else has the same perspective as me...

And like I said, I love Zeppelin. This has nothing to do with disliking their music. It just has to do with my annoyince at John Bonham being lauded all the time like he is.

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Old 06-08-2003, 07:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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before you judge, you have to put everything in perspective. for example, hendrix is by no means the most technically skilled guitarist - but he's not idolized for that reason. he's the man because he spearheaded a new type of guitar playing that inspired many many people. same thing with bonham. he put drums in the forefront - more so than any other drummer at the time. had bonham not treated his drums as an equal member to page's guitar, plant's voice, and JPJ's bass, Lombardo might have never thought to play his "hardcore, all-out, balls-to-the-walls drumming".

sure Dream Theater's medley of Zep tunes is pulled off cleaner and tighter than Zeppelin could have ever accomplished, but that's no reason to think less of Zeppelin, is it? I think not. how can one be expected to perfect an artform when one is inventing it at the same time?
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Old 06-08-2003, 07:35 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Actually, I do find Hendrix to be one of the most technically sound guitarists ever, for the fact that he could play just about anything... and he learned it all upside-down. I tried to play Purple Haze upside-down once... I just can't do it. At all. One bit.

And maybe you're right about the influence that Bonham's playing had on other drummers through the years, and I'm not combatting that. I definetly believe that he was one of the first, and definetly one of the most influential in doing it, to put the drums at the forefront of the music. Despite this, I believe that the claims that he is the BEST or even ONE OF the best drummers ever are erroneous, because as far as skill goes, he is far behind so many other drummers. Others I can name would be Neal Pert, Bill Ward, Ian Paice... there are plenty. What I'm saying is, no matter how influential he may have been to other drummers, he doesn't belong at the top of the list as far as skill goes. That's all.
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Old 06-08-2003, 07:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
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i think the best thing boham can do is with his bass drum, i watched an old BBC session and what he did at the end of Dazed and Confused is just awesome
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Old 06-08-2003, 08:21 PM   #5 (permalink)
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i think skill is given waaay too much focus. the question that is always asked: "what guitarist/drummer/bassist can play fastest/best?" more important to me is "what instrumentalist can play most convincingly as part of a band". sure, i demand a certain amount of skill in the players that i listen to (probably more so than most people), but in all reality there's probably dozens of bedroom guitarist/drummers that have better chops than dudes in bands that we all love. compared to say via, satch, petrucci, eric johnson, van halen, randy rhodes, marty friedman, mustaine, etc, etc hendrix is flat-out sloppy and slow.

apart from that rant, RAMONES!!! is right on with Bonham's double bass drum pedal work. he invented that shit if I recall. friend of mine went to Berklee College of Music for percussion and though he despises Zeppelin (i won't even get into that), he thinks Bonham was incredible.
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Old 06-08-2003, 08:24 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I'd say he was the best.But don't listen to me.Ask people like Phil Collins,Cozy Powell,Roger Taylor and Carmen Appice.They'd tell you.
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Old 06-08-2003, 08:31 PM   #7 (permalink)
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You might find Hendrix to sound sloppy and slow, but you're comparing him to guitarists that play a completely different style than him. What Hendrix played was flat-out blues, and he had the blues style down as well if not better than any guitarist ever. If he ever really wanted to play any of the stuff that Vai et. al. played, he could, without a doubt. He just never did, because that wasn't the style of music that he played.

Beside that, YOU may personally think that the actual drumming skill factor is overrated, but when, as in this case, we're looking at drummers based on their skill, Bonham simply IS NOT at the top of the pack. No matter what kind of education you have in music, it is a plain and simple fact that Bonham simply did not have the skill of so many other drummers out there, and as far as skill is concerned, does not deserve mention as one of the best of all time.
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Old 06-08-2003, 08:50 PM   #8 (permalink)
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There doesn't have to be a 'best' musician, any more than you could say there is a best artist (rembrandt, dali, etc.) each can be unique and the concept of 'best' left to the beholder (or listener in the case of musician. I like to think that if you can tell a musicians sound, be it guitarist, drummer, bassist, etc., just by the way they play, they are considered true musicians in my book. (Phil Collins, for instance, has a unique sound in the way he plays the drums that there is no mistaking it is him playing-totally different genre than bonham, no less talented. Santana plays guitar like no one else yet different genre than hendrix, just a few examples but you get the idea)
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Old 06-08-2003, 08:54 PM   #9 (permalink)
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no disputes here with anything you said except for hendrix being able to play via's (and others) stuff. maybe he could after years and years of practice, but he could not just pick up his guitar and play like via/satch/etc. nor could SRV and he had chops that could run hendrix into the ground.

what i'm really "arguing" here is that these contests of skill are futile. anytime you take a player out of his genre, comparisons are useless - as you pointed out there's no reason to compare hendrix to satch, but there's also no reason to compare bonham to watson, copeland, lombardo, peart, portnoy, etc. take each player in context and appreciate him/her. bonham may no be able to play as fast as X, but he sure as hell was on of the best blues/hard rock drummers of the seventies.
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Old 06-08-2003, 09:03 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Well I'll tell you what.I'll trade my Bachelor of Music degree and bet against you.Are we talking about Ringo Starr,Charlie Watts or any drummers of the last 20 years who couldn't even come close to Bonham.And as far as skill goes,..listen,..then listen to those who sound better by your definition.By your comparison,I could clean house amongst any of todays guitarists easily. But I already knew that.(sorry,I couldn't resist)I don't know what you're definition of skill is,but I'll tell you,his reputation isn't only because he was in Zeppelin.It's because he was a great drummer,and an awesome musician.If you could only see the bootlegged videos of him.He definitely set the standard.

And by the way,a little known fact.Bonham tuned his drums to concert pitch(440) and used the pitches A and E on his floor toms as well as his mounted toms.He also adjusted the pitch depending on what song Zeppelin was playing. Call me biased,but no one gives me the shivers up my spine like he does.

Last edited by gibber71; 06-08-2003 at 09:32 PM..
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Old 06-08-2003, 09:33 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Now hooooooooold on a second.

Did I hear Ringo Starr?

This may be a topic of another thread, but I must say that Ringo, despite, if you listen to him, his drumming sounding rather dull (technically at least), take into account that Ringo used a VERY small drum set and made do with only the bare minimum.

Not to say that he was one of the best drummers of all time, far from it. Only to say that he gets bashed unnecessarily as much as Bonham gets lauded unnecessarily.

Also, I never said anything about Charlie Watts... personally I think that he's a mediocre drummer at best and not even as good as Bonham was.

Another thing is, I think what makes a sound techical drummer is that drummer's ability to play in all different styles... jazz, metal, funk, whatever it is, you should be able to play it if you are truly a good drummer. If your own "style" limits you from playing anything from anyone else's "style," then, no matter how good you may sound at your own thing, you're not well-rounded enough to be considered a true great.
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Old 06-08-2003, 09:52 PM   #12 (permalink)
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That's what I was saying.I mean I could play drums as well as both Ringo and Charlie,and I'm no drummer.

Anyways we all have our favourites and each one is different in their own ways.Let's be happy they chose to do what they did.
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Old 06-09-2003, 06:18 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Best drummer EVER: KEITH MOON!!!!!
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Old 06-09-2003, 09:04 AM   #14 (permalink)
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One more thing I forgot.Bonham, with a very limited Ludwig kit, came up with the most creative and unique phrasings using what he had to work with.Of course someone like Neil Peart,who also is a great drummer,can sound way more technically proficient but then again, how many pieces is his drumset? 25,35 pieces?

Don't forget,Bonham had a bass drum,a snare,one mounted tom and two floor toms and cymbals.That's it.(not counting the tympani)

bullgoose mentioned Keith Moon.Moon the Loon was great too and also had a small kit.

I remember seeing Motley Crue years ago and the review in the paper the next day said something like Tommy Lee is the next wave of drummers to replace people like Bonham.I laughed out loud.Must have been Tommy's triplets on his double bass drums that Bonham did with one bass drum.
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Old 06-09-2003, 11:28 AM   #15 (permalink)
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i havent heard any of you guys mention ginger baker.

ginger baker (in my opinion) could spin circles around boham.

KWSN are far as listening to drum solos, i do agree that boham isnt as entertaining as others like ginger baker.

but to play with led zeppelin, he did what he needed to do to make them a great rock band, if he didnt play the same he would be just a common band, but since he did play the way he did, look at what happened.

but awesome drum solo is ginger baker.
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Old 06-09-2003, 11:43 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Drum solos aren't the mark of a good player, IMHO. Drum solos prove what you can do on your own, away from the group, not what you do with the group.

Bonham is amazing because of what he brought to Led Zepplin. He was completely in the pocket on so many songs, it's not even funny. Listen to Stairway, Tangerine, In The Evening, Fool In the Rain, just for examples of what I mean.

I'll take one solid, in the pocket drummer over 100 soloing, triplets-all-over the place drummers any day of the week.
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Old 06-09-2003, 12:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I might add "Achilles Last Stand" to that list also.If the fills in that song don't warrant any special response,I don't know what to say after that.And when you listen,...listen loud.
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Old 06-09-2003, 06:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I'd take Keith Moon over him if it were a competition, but he was still talented. I don't like his drum solos (the only drum solos I can recall liking are the ones in "The End" and "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida." It's a good thing they've more or less died out), but his style suited Led Zeppelin's sound perfectly. Plus, he was amazingly recorded. I'm not sure what Zep's producers did, but they made Bonham sound consistently great.

Oh, and Ringo was excellent. Obviously no Bonham or Moon, but The Beatles didn't need or want one. And when he was called upon to do something weird he did it quite well, see "A Day In The Life."
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Old 06-09-2003, 07:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Thumb
I'd take Keith Moon over him if it were a competition, but he was still talented. I don't like his drum solos (the only drum solos I can recall liking are the ones in "The End" and "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida." It's a good thing they've more or less died out), but his style suited Led Zeppelin's sound perfectly. Plus, he was amazingly recorded. I'm not sure what Zep's producers did, but they made Bonham sound consistently great.
woah, who are you talking about here?

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Old 06-09-2003, 08:37 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I think I'm with KWSN and bullgoose on this one. Bonham can hit the skins with the best of them but he's widely overrated. His sound is punchy and full, essential to Led Zeppelin, but often lacks subtlety. I think a pretty good case could be made for Charlie Watts being a better/more skilled/capable/whatever drummer than JB (see: "Between the Buttons"-remaster). Keith Moon was a wild talent unparalled by anyone in his generation. Personally I find John Maher (Buzzcocks), Janet Weiss (Sleater-Kinney), and Doug Scharin (June of '44) to be better/more interesting drummers.

Ringo Starr was the luckiest one-two man to blunder his way to Hamburg in the early 60s.
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Old 06-10-2003, 04:58 AM   #21 (permalink)
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See, I think the problem here is in comparing any two drummers. There are so many different styles. I like Charlie Watts, Ringo Starr, Keith Moon, Omar Hakim, Stewart Copeland and John Bonham, but all for different reasons.

On thing all of the guys above have in common, they all play in the pocket. It's hard to describe unless you're playing, but I'll try. Instead of playing a little in front of the band or a little behind them, you're completely locked in. It's almost as if the entire band was being played by one person. I've never heard a track where Bonham wasn't completely in the pocket.
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Old 06-10-2003, 06:14 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by RAMONES!!!
i havent heard any of you guys mention ginger baker.

ginger baker (in my opinion) could spin circles around boham.

KWSN are far as listening to drum solos, i do agree that boham isnt as entertaining as others like ginger baker.

but to play with led zeppelin, he did what he needed to do to make them a great rock band, if he didnt play the same he would be just a common band, but since he did play the way he did, look at what happened.

but awesome drum solo is ginger baker.
Ginger Baker was a loose cannon; he had moments of brilliance surrounded by mediocracy, listen to "Ginger Bakers Airforce" if you don't believe me. I've mentioned this guy before; Corky Laing, he drummed for Mountain with Leslie West- very good cross between the styles of Moon and Bonham. I'd suggest a listen to the "Deam Sequence" cut off "Flowers of Evil" to really get the flavor of just how good Corky Laing is (He's still around).
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Old 06-10-2003, 06:36 AM   #23 (permalink)
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One other thing I forgot.Bonham would and could often change the flow of the song just by choosing different rhythmic patterns combined with texture and tempo while the band was improvising.This is something that would be played off between him and Page and with Jones laying down some incredible lines right off the cuff.Unfortunately,this is really only realized on live recordings and not on the studio cuts.

You don't have to tell me I'm biased,I know I am.But I have yet to hear a drummer that can dictate the flow of a song as well as Bonham could,that being in a rock context anyway.And in terms of being subtle,again he was one of the best,considering his reputation as a banger.But then again,I'm biased and because I 've listened to dozens and dozens of bootlegs spanning Zeps career.
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Old 06-10-2003, 11:39 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I doubt anyone's gone and listened to any Apex Theory songs per my recommendation... really, though, you want to hear some well-rounded drumming, listen to the song 4RA's... as far as I can tell, the beginning of the song is played by hand (without a stick in it)... also listen to a lot of their other songs to hear how well Sammy J. Watson sets the pace for the twisted time signatures that they use... I think you'll then see why I think he's got Bonham beat by a longshot.

Also, I agree with what someone said about drum solos. I don't think that a drum solo automatically makes a good drummer, for one thing, and for another, I really don't think drum solos are all that necessary to songs, period. They're more fluff than anything else, and mostly I just think they make most songs sound bad. Guitar/Bass/Keyboard solos are the ones that really matter to me.

Again, that's just me.
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Old 06-10-2003, 06:45 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally posted by KWSN
-Dave Lombardo of Slayer (Listen to Disciple, Payback, War Zone, and God Send Death. Really. That is some hardcore, all-out, balls-to-the-walls drumming right there.)
that was paul bostaph who played on the god hates us all album.
he was with slayer from the early 90's till the latest album.
lombardo is back now, and he does rule.
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Old 06-10-2003, 08:52 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I know it's not the point, but...even making a list of, "Who was the best drummer...guitarist...bassist...kazoo player" is just ridiculous. It's their personal expression via soundwaves. It's all individual, from one style to another. Bonham could never be replaced....that's why LZ stopped playing together...it's why the Grateful Dead aren't the Grateful Dead anymore. Look at any one of Frank Zappa's bands...some of the most skilled musicians on earth...they don't play together anymore....the sound is irreplaceable...<---is that a word?....anyway...no bonham wasn't as technical as the afforementioned percusssionists....it's all about style man. I just listen to the tunes for what I think there worth....I can't rate the players.
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Old 06-10-2003, 09:56 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Re: Re: John Bonham

Quote:
Originally posted by nate_dawg
that was paul bostaph who played on the god hates us all album.
he was with slayer from the early 90's till the latest album.
lombardo is back now, and he does rule.
Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

I like them both, in that case. A lot.
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Old 11-19-2007, 08:36 PM   #28 (permalink)
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to mr KWSN and anyone who can read.

drummers that blow Bonham away?....realy?

The whole reason that Zepplin disolved......was because the chemestry ,that put them together ....to bless this planet with thier existance, lost one of the chemicals needed to allow them to exist as Zepplin................

Sure, there are and will be those who call themselves drummers', that can almost copy stroke for stroke every tune that Bonham was a part of.........that means a whole lotta sweet nothing!!!!!!

You have to have a mind to be a musician!! Bonham wasn't just a great drummer that kept time.....he played the drums. He put drum music (notes) to a song which was used for that song only....he ddn't use the same "beat" as they call it, for every song that he was a part of. (like most so called "drummers'")..........nor did he use the same "fills" as they call them for every song.

That's why you have to listen to, and become familar with every tune in order to grasp the greatness of Bonham...and keep in mind his age when we first heard of him, up until the age at which we lost him...one can only imagine (and maybe not) what he would of given us all these years gone bye......

Most of the Drummers' that you think are so great are nothing more than "beat keepers" and "filler drummers" . There not contributing to the music with any sort of creativity or originality. They'er just pre-occupied with trying to put in as many stokes as they can in the typical 4/4 timing that there in and get back to what sounds like a solid beat for the song. A dime a dozen drummers like that are in existance.

Most of the general public rock lovers don't understand the drums as an instrument......they hear it and think of drums as "ya, what a beat" "look at him go!"......they are listening to percussionist's.....not drummers"

Example: Rush and Emerson, Lake,and Palmer,......etc...had great percussionist's.

Also the Beatles would not have been the Beatles without Ringo. Not that he was a great drummer, or percussionist,......he was the perfect simple beatkeeper with the right perfect simple fillers for the music that he played to.

Same with Charly Watts......"dido" They both had the same ability to keep it simple and ever so sweet.....

I could go on for ever.....I've been the missing ingredient to many potential albums that don't exist. Ever since I first heard "music" being played on my fathers car radio in 1965. (I was five)......it was the beatles at that time. That special receiver in my brain has never been the same...

Well these are only some of my thoughts and opinions......yours are yours,
and I wish everyone who reads this ... a healthy and happy time on earth!
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Old 12-01-2007, 07:27 AM   #29 (permalink)
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If you ever doubt Bonham's brilliance, go listen closely to his work on "In My Time Of Dying" and "The Wanton Song" and get back to me.

Bonham was fucking nails.
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Old 12-01-2007, 08:53 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Sometimes it's difficult to hear subtilties in really heavy music, like Zeppelin. But, that's exactly what makes Bohnam's drumming great. In addition to playing huge pounding beats, he had really nice quite subtle embellishments. The types you would normally expect in soul music. And he played both at the same time! I haven't really heard many drummers duplicate this. So, ignore the "in your face" gimmicks of the Moby Dick drum solo, and listen to what he did in D'yer M'aker, or the Kashmir.

Next to Bohnam, my favorite kit drummer would be Manu Katche (Sting, Peter Gabriel, etc). Very melodic drummer.
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Old 06-01-2011, 06:56 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I totally agree. Completely. LZ is in my top ten all time fav groups, but unquetionably, without doubt, Ringo Starr, and ESPECIALLY Bonham are very over-rated.
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Old 06-01-2011, 07:14 PM   #32 (permalink)
 
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it's the fills. they're always on point.
frankly it took me a long time to hear it.
but they say (who?) that the measure of a great drummer is the extent to which they drive the sound of a band but disappear into it.

btw the comparisons to moon are misplaced--moon was more a jazz drummer in the elvin jones mode, really. believe it or not. very tonal and precise. and loud. and there'd be no who without him (listen to how they are now.) a very different style.
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Old 06-05-2011, 04:14 AM   #33 (permalink)
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the things the man could do with a single kick pedal alone are what drew me to Bonzo.......amazing foot control
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