Glory's Sun

well.. looks like this saga is finally over. Brown pleads to 5 years probation and 6 months community service.

Strange Famous

What a joke. This is a national disgrace and a very serious international incident.

I would expect the Bahama's to make very strong representations that a crazed hooligan who viciously beats and assults one of their citizens is treated to no more than a slap on the wrist.

Rihana has to make these statements so as not to suffer commercial damage from rabid Chris Brown fans. I feel inside she must be very sad to learn how seriously violence towards women is taken in America.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

Rhianna disagrees with you, and I, personally, think you are severely exaggerating.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

I expect her record company forced her to make such a statement... did you notice how what she "said" mirrored almost exactly what the record company person said?

Exageration?

She was choked until close to blacking our, her face was repeatedly rammed into a car window, and she was punched in the face. Rihanna weighs I would gues a max of 120 pounds, Chris Brown is a physically fit 20 year old man.

This is an absolutely disgusting crime, and I really cannot understand how the court can claim that the law has been upheld when he can walk away from this with nothing more than probation and a few hours community service (which I expect he will serve going round schools and telling young men that they can get away with beating up their girlfriends if they are rich enough to hire really expensive counsel)

This is very very disappointing.

Its sad to say it, but it is no wonder that so many crimes of domestic violence are unreported. This isnt just a knock to the American system because it is similar in many nations - basically assaulting a women is just a bit of a joke to the male dominated legal system and all the criminal normally gets is a slap on the wrist.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

Exaggeration?

Just a bit.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

I will defend every statement

1 - It is a joke that inflicting the kind of injuries on a defenceless woman that Rihanna suffered in an unprovoked physical attack is not dealt with with a jail sentence

2 - The lenitent attitude that is shown to domestic violence is a grave embarassment to America, and to other nations where beating up a female spouse is just seen as a privat matter and a bit of a laugh to the institutionally sexist justice system.

3 - I think certainly the people of the Bahama's will very unhappy that one of their most famopus daughters has been violently beaten up by a man who wont serve a day in jail fo it because he is rich and his victim was his partner. I expect that the American ambassador in Bahama's has already been summoned and an offical protest made.

4 - We do not need to dwell on the horrible injuries inflicted on Rihanna again. Would you descrive Brown's activity as sane or peaceful?

5 - no jail time. Not one day inside. Probation and a bit of community service (which as I said already he will undoubtably spend simply going round school's talking about domestic violence and how he got away with it)

6 - I have seen multiple Facebook groups backing Brown even when th photo's leaked. I have no doubt that her record company have told her not to appear vengeful and risk losing sales to female fans who have crushes on the lunatic Brown. A very very sad state of affairs indeed.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

supervised probation.. that means at least monthly reviews from a probation officer and if he violates he will serve the suspended sentence.

and please.. male dominated justice system? don't even get me started on that one.

Baraka_Guru

It's not a joke. This kind of sentencing happens all the time. Do you know what probation entails? Have you ever done that much community service? Have you taken courses on domestic violence? Even if you haven't, how can you perceive these things as a laughing matter?

I don't think Brown is laughing. Probation is a serious responsibility. Twelve months is a long time to be under probation. And, yeah, let's not open that can of worms regarding sexism in the justice system....

I think Bahamian politicians have far more important matters to attend to than spend any time on an issue of common-law misdemeanors between two parties that happen off Bahamian soil. The most I'd expect is a public statement issued from an office to the media in the form of a release. And his kind of sentencing happens to poor people too, so that's a non-issue.

Sanity isn't an issue,I don't think. What he did was against public peace, of course. I don't think he's a "crazed hooligan." He'd have a different fate if that was the issue.

He's going to clean up graffiti and pick up litter. Even Boy George did that. Plus the requirements under which one must abide for court-issued probation can be highly restrictive. And, as I said, 12 months is quite a while to abide by these. This is not a slap on the wrist. A slap on the wrist would have been a minimal fine and a few weekends in detention.

Yes, yes, he's such a looney, just like his fans. Are you saying he should be institutionalized on grounds of insanity? Why would want you send someone like that to a general population prison?

I'm sorry, but you aren't convincing me.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

If Brown had beaten up a male police officer he'd have done 5 years

The fact that it was his partner and a woman means that the crime wasnt taken seriously at all - its just a "domestic" in the eyes of the male chauvenist justice system.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Manic_Skafe

You can't be serious. If he'd have attacked another man it wouldn't have even been news. The leaps in logic required to defend your argument are incredible but at least you're consistent.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

dlish

SF, ive disagreed with you on this issue from the start.

now that he's sentenced, do i think it was a fair sentence? personally no.

that's not to take away from the sentence that was passed on. i prersonally would have liked to see hard labour or a small stint in prison, maybe a month or two, but i wasnt privvy to the case, so i cant make that judgement. the judge who had all the details of the case as well as both arguments i dare say would be the best person to make that judgement.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Glory's Sun

wait.. so you're saying that beating up federal official or cop is equal to beating up your girlfriend? What if it was a female cop he had beaten up?

He was looking at a max sentence of 4 years. *4*.. got it? *4* years. This being his first offense, the D.A. was willing to barter. Now let's think about this for a moment. Why would the D.A. want to barter on this case? Could it be because Rhianna wasn't going to really say what he wanted her to say? Could it be that Rhianna wanted a lighter sentence for Brown? *newsflash* the victim can give their input to the D.A. on what they would like..if she said she didn't want him to go to prison, then the D.A. can broker that deal.

With all the PR going around this case, it would have been simple for the D.A. to burn Brown's ass. He could have easily said there would be no negotiations and he would have to face Judge and Jury. However, a plea was struck, which tells me there's more going on behind the scenes of this than we know.

Nobody is defending Brown's actions, but I dare say that if anyone in this thread ever found themselves in front of a jury, they'd be begging for the D.A. to hand a deal like this down..

Baraka_Guru

Possibly, but that would be because it's a more serious offense.

If he had beaten up a female police officer, he would have been eaten alive.

"Wasn't taken seriously at all." So there was no case? No sentencing? Brown is "off the hook"?

What male-chauvinist system? Are you talking about the one that incarcerates 9 men for every woman? I really have no idea what you're talking about.

Did you want special treatment for this case because Rhianna is female and Brown is male? What are you asking for?

Although I personally think the sentencing was a bit light (I would have preferred to see him serve weekend detentions for at least the better part of those 12 months in addition to probation), 5 years' imprisonment would be far heavier than the norm.

The other issue is whether society would benefit from Brown giving back to society and proving himself responsible, as opposed to placing him in a prison population, where he could quite possibly take a turn for the worse. I don't think anyone would want Brown to become worse in his ways.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

Yes,there was something going on behind the scenes allright. Money, sexism, and more money.

Of course it is a less disgusting crime to brawl with a male policeman than to savagely brutalise a 120 lbs young woman. The strongest factor that should be considered in any assault case is (1) the degree of injury (2) the relative strength of the two parties (3) provocation.

In this case Rihanna was badly beaten (but not killed), by a man who is far heavier, stronger, and bigger than her, with no provocation at all.

By this simple measure that I think is obvious to anyone, Brown's crime was amongst the worst. We all know the real life story of how this works Its an old boys network, Brown's counsel has a word with the DA (you scratch my back, I scratch yours, lts cooperate on this and I'll do you a favour on the next case, he didnt kill the girl and she probably was asking for it, etc...)

Now, I dont know the exact words spoken but I suspect my account is very accurate and to be honest I find it sickening.

In ANY case, where the other key factors are equal (ie the same amount of injury and no provocation) the order of seriousness of the crimes is as follows

1 - a female minor/a baby
2 - an adult female
3 - a male minor
4 - a male adult

Assaulting a male is still a crime and still can be serious, but it is less serious as assaulting a woman, due to the simple fact that (1) on average women ae less trong (2) in all cases women do not have the violent instincts of the male

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

I fixed it for you.

Seriously, I don't know what else to say except that you have some interesting, albeit disturbing, fantasies on issues of justice and gender.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

You know this as fact? Please forward me the evidence list and the transcripts and depositions of all involved. Thanks.

The next thing you talk about is this:

Now if Rhianna was some bum on the street and pennyless, I could perhaps see this stretch of logic, however, given the fact that Brown and Rhianna both have tons of cash, it doesn't fit the mold. You're seriously reaching.

Now, personally, I think most women would find it sickening that you think assaulting a woman is more serious than a man. If that ideal doesn't scream 'sexism' I don't know what does. It's extremely sexist and insulting.

As far as your male dominated justice system goes.. let's be honest here.. Men are arrested far more than women and women can easily scream "Domestic" with no evidence and have a man locked up. They can scream "Rape" and have a man's image tarnished for life just because they said he did it... now who's side is the system really on?? Oh that's right.. women are inferior and the weaker of the sex so they must be treated specially right?

Strange Famous

I feel that you are misrepresenting me.

I do not think that women are inferior, women are on the whole emotionally more stable, stronger, more caring, and lacking in aggression and physical violence. This makes them by the standards of society today superior members of society to men - on average.

That women - on average - physically weaker than men is self evident to any person who observes reality.

Someone quoted that 9 men are arrested for every 1 woman. I wont dispute that but I expect that there are 20 male criminals for every female 1, and 500 men guilty of violent assault for every woman guilty of any crime involving violence whatsoever. Yes, it can happen that women commit assault - but its very very rare.

__

I do not need to show you a single transcript to say there was no provocation.

I know 100% that there was none because I saw a picture of Rihanna with her faced bruised and cut, and I saw Chris Brown without a mark on him. The "provocation" that set Brown off was anything that challenged his male superiority complex - maybe she answered back, maybe she looked at another guy... to the habitual brute anything can be enough. Luckily the law does not recognise such things as provocation.
_


Now, I have never said women are inferior or weak. But I am a real life person who walks about the world and based on my experience and knowledge I know for myself that women are very often the victims of male violence and it is hardly ever the case the other way round. This isnt as you seem to say that I am criticising women for being "less good at violence"... such a view is really crazy in my opinion.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

you do in fact need to show transcripts and depositions if you are to claim knowledge of a case.

The court has plenty of similar circumstances that are recognized as provocation..and they all fall under various guidelines.

I also find it funny how are now using "habitual brute" when referencing Brown. Had he been a "Habitual brute" he would not have only received his probation and CS.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Criminal Offenders Statistics

In 1998 there were an estimated 3.2 million arrests of women, accounting for 22% of all arrests that year.
Based on self-reports of victims of violence, women account for 14% of violent offenders, an annual average of about 2.1 million violent female offenders.
Women accounted for about 16% of all felons convicted in State courts in 1996: 8% of convicted violent felons, 23% of property felons, and 17% of drug felons.
In 1998 more than 950,000 women were under correctional supervision, about 1% of the U.S. female population.

Granted, the numbers are skewed heavily in the direction of men, but to say that's rare that a woman commits violent acts is in and of itself very naive.

So.. really this is kind of pointless to carry on unless you can show me true evidence that the man paid his way out, had his lawyers do a voodoo act on the D.A. or prove that Rhianna is not satisfied with things.. or that the law was not carried out.

Strange Famous

What further proof do you need that the justice system is institutionally sexist than to come up with an incredible figure of 8% of violent assaults being committed by women?

Its likely at least 80% of these were self defence or unsafe convictions.

Lets talk about real life, not stats... how many people do you know who have ever been the victim of a violent crime? Likely some. Were any of them assaulted by a female? Likely not.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

does female on female violence count? Quite a few.

Let's do talk about real life. Have a female friend of yours call the police and tell them you assaulted her. See what happens. Now you call the police and tell them she assaulted you. see what happens. You'll find two very different scenarios played out.

Now have her call the police and tell them you raped her. See what happens. Now call them and tell them she raped you.. what happens? Nothing. (I fully know your position on male rape so let's not go into that argument here)

The justice system continually allows for the protection of women with no evidence or standard. How is that a system that is pro-male sexist? A woman can say just about anything to have a man arrested, it is not the same when the roles are switched. I've seen it with my own eyes. I've seen men get reduced to nothing just because of one person's word. Male sexism? Nah, I say it's the opposite.

Strange Famous

Rihanna was beaten black and blue and choked into semi consciousness: and Chris Brown wont do a single day inside for it... in your view has the justice system protected her adequately?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

Since when is limited anecdotal reporting any more real than research and statistics?

Turn a blind eye if you wish, but try not to explain this away as completely justified or all men's fault:


Men Shouldn't Be Overlooked as Victims of Partner Violence -- Arehart-Treichel 42 (15): 31 -- Psychiatr News

An interesting excerpt:

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

There is a difference between a woman slapping a man in the face to a man punching a woman in the head - and unfortunately those stats you quote fail utterly to take account of that reality BG

In my opinion it is simply PC propoganda

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Baraka_Guru

I sincerely hope you're joking. So women's violence against men only takes the form of slapping in the face, and men's violence against women is always punching in the head.

Are you basing your perceptions of reality on the sum of what you've seen in TV and in movies?

I can't take you seriously.

Yes, of course there is a difference. You just stated the difference: slapping vs. punching. Just like there's a difference between a woman slapping a man in the face vs. beating upon a man (with or without an object) who does nothing but either take it or try passively to stop it. That is real. Think about it. I don't make these things up.

Try clicking the link I posted.

Do you honestly think the "injuries" men suffer were all from slaps in the face? ...women's primary form of assault? (Sorry, but that's laughable.)

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Glory's Sun

Certainly has. Was the justice system supposed to be there before the act was committed? How does that work? Minority Report anyone? Brown is forbidden to be in close proximity, and Brown is now able to serve as an example and help others learn from his mistake rather than rotting in prison and becoming angry at "the man" and going down a random path. It's not a difficult concept.

Strange Famous

The justice system is supposed to punish crime. Any young woman who is the victim of violence will come away from this thinking "there is no point reporting this, because the American justice system wont give the guy a sentence, wont protect me... he'll be out the day after the court case, and ready to take reprisals against me for daring to report him"

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

I will give you some foundation to stand on that women and men do have a hard time reporting some instances of assault. It's not an uncommon practice, but this case is an exception. Brown has to watch what he does or he *will* end up in prison. It's not like he got off with nothing. He has to lose his pride as he scrubs graffiti off walls and picks up trash in the street. He has to take monitored piss tests to make sure he's clean. He can't have more than a speeding ticket or will violate the terms of his probation. So basically he's in a small prison without walls.

Certainly, some men will retaliate against a woman for reporting him.. but what difference does it make if the man who will do that goes to prison? He'll only learn new tricks, find more hatred and then carry out the retaliation at a later date. I think it's safe to say that Brown won't be doing any sort of retaliation.

Strange Famous

Ive had mates on probation and with community service orders... so I know how serious is it (ie - its a joke)

The next time a woman dares to speak out of turn to Brown, what will stop him exploding again? The memory of a 60 hours community service order? Hardly. He'll be confident with the counsel he can afford he wont have much trouble again, if the woman even dares report him.

I have an idea what might - a 5 year stretch staring at a concrete wall 23 hours a day.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

*sigh*

sure unsupervised probation is a joke, but let's not forget how high profile this man is. He is on *supervised* probation which requires drug screens, (most won't even allow alcohol) weekly or monthly visits and other requirements. On top of that his every move will be scrutinized from now on. There are going to be PO's that would love to bust this guy on probation and send him to prison.. that's where he's going if he violates.. you realize that right?

so.. basically, your argument to me is that probation won't stop him and he could easily retaliate against Rhianna because she dared to get him on probation.. and you think that his anger will lessen by sitting and starting at concrete walls for 23 hours a day for 5 years? I can tell you which would piss me off more.

Strange Famous

My argument is that he is committed a revolting crime and has not been appropriately punished, because
1 - he was rich
2 - the victim was his partner

my argument is that Rihanna has been denied justice, a dangerous and violent man is at liberty which is a risk to public safety, and an example has been shown to the whole country that the justice system does not take domestic violence seriously.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Glory's Sun

we're at an impass then. the justice system is set up to allow a person the change to change their ways and become an upstanding citizen.

Reese

Putting women on a pedestal and treating them as objects in which we must protect because they are helpless and pure and unable to do harm is bullshit and it's creepy.

If it wasn't for them being famous and Rihanna having every woman's rights leader in her corner including Oprah she probably wouldn't have been willing to testify against him and the charges would have been dropped and she probably would have went back to him. To say he got off easy because he's rich is nonsense. The only reason they pursued it as much as they did is because it angered the public and they pressured(in a good way) Rihanna into doing the right thing and testifying against him which she ultimately didn't have to do.

You have to remember, Brown is very young. He's 19 years old. He'd never been in trouble before. Years of probation and tons of community service isn't getting off easy. It's also not life ruining either like 5 years of prison would have been. You may think probation is a walk in the park because your friends did it, but guess what, your friends didn't have a video camera on them 18 hours a day and every little thing they did recorded. Every Paparazzi shot of Chris Brown is going to be seen by his PO who's just waiting to toss his ass in prison.

I'm not saying domestic abuse is acceptable but women get away with more violence because A) Men are less likely to report abuse and B) Men don't even have to touch a woman for them to bring charges against them. This however is not relevant to the Rihanna case. I don't know the cause of the assault. I did see the picture and I'm sure that no matter what happened she didn't deserve that.

__________________
“It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

dlish

i'd rather watch the tennis...oh wait, this is the tennis...

waiting for SF to serve, down a break point, gucci looking to close out the match

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Strange Famous

It isnt a game mate.

Society sets the standards by which it itself is judged.

If you want a justice system which thinks a physically powerful and vigorous young man beating and choking a 120 lbs girls, choking her until she loses consciousness, punching her repeatedly in the face and smashing her head into a car window until both her eyes her swelld up and she cannot see... if you think such an individual doesnt deserve 1 single day in jail... then I congratualte all citizens of the USA, because you have what you wish for. You have the justice system you desire.

The rest of the world shall feel free to pass judgment upon you for this.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dlish

i seriously think you need to re-evaluate your ideals in line with normalcy. had you been a legislator, you'd have locked up half the countries prisons so minor misdemeanours. You'd clog up the justice system with frivilous hearings that justice would be delayed, if not denied.

i just feel that you need to realise that your moral high ground with regards to this is...well..crap. why? because

1) you yourself have been involved in a stouche where you beat up someone who was a lot weaker than you.

2) you beat up and exagerate this evil menacing and dangerouos young hooligan, when its a case that should have been heard between 2 individuals in a local magistrates court or US equivelant. there no need to send his ass to prison for a quarter or half his life.

no one said this was a game. its not...i think you misunderstood my sarcstic comment. it was meant to denote a two match slanging match between yourself and gucci. seriously dude, lighten up.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Strange Famous

I have never in my life struck a woman, so you have no grounds to compare me to the likes of Brown.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

dlish

violent tendancies blur the confines of gender. i think i do have a right

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

elise1

we weren't in the car so we don't know what went on, but if a woman wants to act like a man, and hit them they deserve to get hit like one.

dlish

sorry i'd have to disagree strongly here.

mike tyson was attacked by robin givens (his ex wife), but he didnt have the right to smack her like he'd smack a man.

i dont see your logic here..actually i dont see logic at all.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

elise1

well wat would you do if a woman starts beating the shit out of you, stand there please rihanna got what she deserved