JustJess

Hello, people-who-know-more-than-I-do!
We have a '95 Subaru 4-door Legacy, I think 4 cylinders, automatic, AWD. About 115,000 miles on it.

His dad is telling us that we'll need to change the timing belt in about 3,000 miles (basing this on having changed it in 2000 or earlier... specifics to come.) Is this a thing you're supposed to do? Change the timing belt at x miles, oil change at x miles... yadda yadda.

I know that oil changes are maintenance to keep the car running well, but I feel that they always underquote how many miles you should go between oil changes - i.e. the car will be perfectly happy for 6,000 miles, but they say you should do it every 3,000. They make twice as much money that way, after all!

So I was wondering if you all felt that was likely true as well, and if that would be the case with the timing belt situation. I fear we're being unnecessarily stressed out. My view on the belt is... if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thoughts?
Thanks!

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cyrnel

I don't know Subaru engines, but if it's an interference design a broken belt means valve & piston damage. Baad. If you can post the engine identification we can give you a definitive answer.

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There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

vautrain

Replace the belt before it breaks... I'm pretty sure it's an interference engine, you'll have a 3,000 pound hunk of junk if the timing belt breaks on you. It will cost more to fix than the car is worth.

However, if the car has been garaged, and the timing belt has been replaced once, you could probably take it to 150,000 miles before you need to worry much about replacing it again.

JustJess

Hm. His dad says that Subaru advises every 60K miles, and it was last replaced at 57K miles. He says to do the oil pan at the same time just to get it done... I don't know. The belt is causing no issues, no knocking, nothing.
I'm just not sure which way to go.

The other factor is that his parents want us to buy their other car, a 1999 Subaru Outback with 75K miles, new tires, also taken very good care of. They will have no trouble selling it, but think we should buy it ('for our own good' and all that). I am resisting because if our car runs well, why spend more money? Then Dad brings up all this about needing to do the timing belt soon, etc.

What do y'all think??
I appreciate the input, vautrain and cyrnel. (sorry, I don't know what you mean by engine identification.)

__________________
My heart knows me better than I know myself, so I'm gonna let it do all the talkin'.

laconic1

The thing about a timing belt is that it usually won't cause any issues or have any symptoms until it just breaks one day. At which point on most engines you are screwed. I looked around on Alldata, couldnt get any info on whether this is an interference motor or not, (an interference motor will do big expensive damage when it breaks, a non interference engine doesn't usually) and it showed the belt should be replaced at either 105,000 or 120,000 depending on which size engine. Usually that mileage interval is indicative of a non interference engine, although I have seen some cars with that interval that are interference engines.
Regardless the best bet is to change the belt

cyrnel

After a couple quick googles it looks like the 95 only had the 2.2L engine which is a non-interference design. If that's true you can run it until it breaks and you'll be out no more than the taxi/tow. Verify it's the 2.2L and get a 2nd opinion.

As mentioned, there's no warning when a timing belt is about to fail. Non-interference generally just dies and you're inconvenienced. Interference makes an awful racket as the engine parts collide on their way to car-heaven.

__________________
There are a vast number of people who are uninformed and heavily propagandized, but fundamentally decent. The propaganda that inundates them is effective when unchallenged, but much of it goes only skin deep. If they can be brought to raise questions and apply their decent instincts and basic intelligence, many people quickly escape the confines of the doctrinal system and are willing to do something to help others who are really suffering and oppressed." -Manufacturing Consent: Noam Chomsky and the Media, p. 195

Ilow

Having a subaru 2.2, i can confirm that it is indeed a non-interference engine. I'm pretty sure that they recommend a change at 60,000 miles and every 60 thereafter. On a slightly different although related topic, if the 99 outback that his parents want you to buy is a 2.5 liter phase I engine I would run (do not walk) away from it, they are terribly prone to head gasket failures and other reliability-negating issues. The phase II's that i believe came the next year are much better i've heard.

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shakran

And since the timing belt issue has been solved by everybody, let's look at the oil change recommendations.

many manufacturers will give you two different recommendations based on whether your car sees "extreme duty" or not. Cars that see extreme duty get 3,000 mile oil changes. The rest get 5,000. 6,000 is REALLY pushing it.

Now here's the trick. Car manufacturers know that they can sell more cars if they tell people it'll be longer between scheduled oil changes. So they've redefined what extreme duty means. Basically, if you do anything but long drives on the highway - any stop and go in town or in rush hour, any starting and stopping the engine (as in when running errands) etc, and you're in the "extreme duty" category.

What's this mean to you? Get it done every 3,000 miles. No question.

As you run your engine, not only does the oil break down over time, but it also picks up tiny metal particles from your engine, and little bits of dirt from what gets past the air filter, and little bits of unburned fuel, and water, and all sorts of other crap that mixes with the oil and makes it less. . well. . oily. As you keep running it you get more and more of these shavings, which means the oil can't do as effective a job at lubricating your engine. In short, change the oil every 3,000 miles.

Look at it this way. It's 20 bucks an oil change. The average person drives around 11,500 miles a year. Let's say you drive 20,000 miles per year. The difference between every 3,000 and every 6,000 is 3 oil changes. If you're really willing to risk destroying your engine for sixty bucks a year. . . .well, all I can say is, start buying cheaper cars

vautrain

There is a forum dedicated (pretty much) to oil-

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?

There is a lot of debate on that forum about OCI and different oil. Many agree a 5k mile or more OCI is perfectly fine, especially when using synthetics. I am still under warranty, so I'm sticking to 3k, but I switched back to dino oil, because using Mobil 1 on a 3k mile OCI was just wasting my money.

shakran

and you have to keep in mind when considering synthetics, if your engine has been running on dinojuice for a long time, when you switch to synthetics you'll probably get a bit leaky.

plus, it's more economical to do 3k changes with dino than 5k changes with synthetics. . . synthetics are DAMN expensive.

quadro2000

You guys rock. This is really great perspective, from those who don't need to care what I choose... so thank you so much.
I'll find out if it's interference or non, and I'll find out if the '99 is a phase I or II. I always figured that oil changes at 5,000 with regular use and a younger car would be fine, but more frequent changes with age would be better... nice to know I'm not crazy.

:*
More tomorrow... thanks so much again!
-JustJess

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DEI37

If you use a high quality regular oil, and have mostly highway driving, then a 5000 mile oil change isn't really going to hurt anything. However, if you use a lower quality oil, and have much city driving, or idling time, or the car doesn't run very good, then a 3000 mile oil change is advisable. I would personally stay away from synthetics, as cost is a huge factor, and the little bit of extra protection for a longer oil change interval only really is a factor with a car that tows A LOT, is raced, is in really cold climates, really HOT climates, or things like that. Filter quality plays a big role, as well. I would recommend spending a little more and get one from your Subaru dealer, or a NAPA Gold/WIX filter.

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vautrain

I got more confirmation that the 2.2l is a non-interference engine, prior to model year 1997. From a guy who owns one.

DEI37

Maybe so, but that's still no excuse to ignore the timing belt until it breaks. I'd still recommend 60,000 mile replacements.

__________________
Generally speaking, if you were to get what you really deserve, you might be unpleasantly surprised.

tec-9-7

Do NOT screw w/ timing belts! The don't give you any warning before they fail, and when they do, it's usually catastrophic. Follow your owner's manual on this. It is expensive, but necessary.

Martian

A little bit of info here, because dey call me da teacha...

A timing belt connects your crank shaft, which is the shaft that the pistons turn, to your cam shaft (or shafts, as the case may be), which open and close the valves. It can also be a timing chain, but is, in fact, a belt in your engine. It's there so that as the crankshaft turns the cam(s) will turn as well, opening the valves at the right time to let charge in and exhaust out. The belt is designed not to slip, as that would have rather disastrous consequences, but is stressed during running and will eventually snap if not changed regularly. As has been noted, in an interference engine (where the valves stick out into the stroke during intake/exhaust) this can spell disaster, bending valves and punching holes in pistons and generally turning that several thousand dollar highly sophisticated engine under your hood into so much scrap metal. In non-interference type engines it's generally just a break down, not nearly as catastrophic, but still hardly a good thing.

The way I look at it is you're going to have to replace it sooner or later anyway. I'd rather it be sooner and save myself the hassle of ending up on the side of the road (and possibly missing a day of work or school or what have ya). Even if you change it every 60 000 miles, that's a massive once every five years of owning your vehicle. Consider it preventative maintenance, realize that once it's done you won't need to do it again for a long time and just go with it.

As for oil, for the cost of an oil change these days, you might as well get it done every 3000 miles. I was taught very early on that for every car (no matter the duty load) it's best to change the oil at 3000 miles or 3 months, whichever comes first. Yeah, you can run it a bit longer and save yourself a bit of money, but for the $20 it takes, it's better to get all the crap that collects in your oil out of the engine where it can do things like score your piston walls and clog up your oil pump. A bad oil pump, incidentally, is what lead to the death of my last car, since without oil circulating the engine tore itself apart very quickly, although I did change my oil regularly (I actually tend to go a little less than 3000, for the simple fact that if I leave it to the last minute I'm not going to get it done on time). Also worth considering is that if you have a warranty of any kind, most of them stipulate that the oil must be changed every 3000 miles or your warranty will be null and void. I doubt you'd have a warranty on a 95, but it's worth considering all the same.

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