RX-8 - Return of the rotary - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

madsenj37 · 10-01-2003, 11:58 PM

What are your impressions of the rx-8? Have you seen pictures, seen in it person, maybe even driven it?

As for pictures, I was not impressed. Once I saw it in person I was impressed. Once I drove it I fell in love.

Magpie0001 · 10-02-2003, 03:27 AM

Pictures are your friend.

Pragma · 10-02-2003, 08:14 AM

I'm going nuts trying to find a copy of the RX-8 TV commercial with the cutaway of the rotary engine, but can't find it anywhere.

If anyone has a copy, I'd be very appreciative.

Redlemon · 10-02-2003, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by madsenj37
As for pictures, I was not impressed. Once I saw it in person I was impressed. Once I drove it I fell in love.

I totally agree with you on the first two counts. I was passed by a red one on the highway, and thought it was beautiful, especially from the back.

Then I saw the "hug" commercial, which is funny, but the car doesn't look nearly as good in it.

(Haven't been in one.)

Peryn · 10-02-2003, 10:29 AM

i LOVE the rotary engine. You can pretty much forget what it looks like and ill probably like that car. The rx-8 i think looks nice in the pics, though the proportions never seemed quite right. See it in person and you *will* fall in love. it is an absolutely gorgeous car. Fun, sporty, and yet more practical for those that have more going on in their life (i.e family or the wife...). You want a copy of that movie with the engine revving up or just a picture of it?

Redlemon · 10-02-2003, 10:39 AM

I'm really not a car guy, so excuse the dumb question. What difference does a rotary engine make? If I were driving the car, how would I know it was rotary?

Serpent · 10-02-2003, 10:40 AM

From what i've heard its down on horsepower from what mazda claims.. And that mazda is recalling all the cars for peoples money back if they wish. And if they don't want to return it they get some cash back or something..

JStrider · 10-02-2003, 10:40 AM

well i hadnt seen one before so i looked em up... looks damn sweet... and the "renesis" rotary engine they got in it sounds like a great engine... i think i know what my next car is gonna be

wrongfullyaccuzd · 10-02-2003, 11:13 AM

a friend of mine has driven one and he is still choosing a 98 rx-7 over it.

Peryn · 10-02-2003, 12:29 PM

a 98 RX-7. uhhh....does he live in Japan? The last rx7 we got here was a 95. RX-8 is also a slightly different class than teh 7. 4 doors, 4 seats, kinda heavier, less HP than teh Turbo FD. Its more for the rx7 fans that have grown up and need a more "adult" or family car. There are still rumors mazda is spreading about a possible comeback of the rx7 depending on how well teh rotary and 8 take off here.

And yes, once you press the pedal in a rotary you know its something unique. Its a totally different feel from any piston engine i've ever felt.

As for less power, they were down 9 HP or so from the factory claims. The factory took its numbers from a pre-production prototype. A minor change was made that dropped power a little. They are offering a buyback or 500 dollars and some extra maintenance for free. a pretty good deal for 9 horsepower.

FastShark85 · 10-02-2003, 12:31 PM

The rotary engine is smooth and can rev much higher.

I recall seeing an article several weeks ago where Mazda admitted that the RX-8 has less-than-advertised HP because of last minute emission control adjustments. They offered to buy back every model already sold.

Anyone have a link to an article about this?

WarWagon · 10-02-2003, 12:37 PM

redlemon, the rotary motor does not use pistons, but rather, it use a or several triangular rotors in their place. They rev very quickly and smoothly, and the motors themselves are quiet, which is why several models used a buzzer to indicate the redline. Their low end performance is poor, but they have awesome top end.

Redlemon · 10-02-2003, 01:11 PM

Interesting, thanks WW/FS/Py!

punx1325 · 10-02-2003, 01:17 PM

I have heard that the rotary engine is expensive to repair, because parts are so rare. That's just something to think about down the road. I do love the car, I just wish it had a little more horsepower.

Peryn · 10-02-2003, 01:21 PM

Its expensive to repair, not because of parts so much, but because of a lack of qualified technicians. I wouldn't even trust most mazda techs. Very few people know what a rotary is, let alone how to work on it.

The engine also only has a dozen or so moving (or stationary for that matter) moving parts. It is an incredibly lightweight, small, simple design, so there isn't too many parts that can break or cause problems.

stingc · 10-02-2003, 04:15 PM

Quote:

It is an incredibly lightweight, small, simple design, so there isn't too many parts that can break or cause problems. [/B]

And yet a couple of those parts do regularly break. At least in the old rotaries. That's why they're so rare. Mazda hasn't gotten great reliability out of them, and GM couldn't even bring one into production.

Anyways, I had the reverse reaction to most people here. I liked the RX-8 in pictures, but thought it looked horrible when I saw it in person. The rear end looks riced out.

etardedraverboy · 10-02-2003, 06:22 PM

ill take 1 who wants to give it to me

Pragma · 10-02-2003, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Peryn
You want a copy of that movie with the engine revving up or just a picture of it?

If possible, I'd like a copy of the whole movie.

Also, about the buy-back of RX-8s: There was a minor horsepower difference, nothing to get that worried about in my opinion, between pre-production and production models, and Mazda offered to buy back all of the RX-8s. There is a thread on it here:

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthr...threadid=25637

Personally, I don't think that the HP drop is anything to worry about unless you intend to squeeze every last drop of power out of it.

kris · 10-02-2003, 08:29 PM

I actually do think it's a big deal that mazda stretched their horsepower numbers. All the other major car manufacturers are very conservative giving out horsepower numbers. Hopefully, Mazda learned their lesson this time around and their engines wont explode. Now that Ford owns a good chunk of Mazda I'll be suprise if the rx-8s will last any longer then the rx-7s. Personally, I think there is too much hype with this car, especially with their past record. I would definitely choose the 350z over it.

Pragma · 10-02-2003, 09:02 PM

It's not like they stretched the HP numbers on purpose. As they said, they got a certain HP rating with the pre-production model and (if memory serves) changed a part between pre-production and production and never ran the HP test again. Something with changing a part dropped the HP rating.

I don't believe that Mazda intended to fool the public, as that would have very easily backfired if people went to the press with this before Mazda.

madsenj37 · 10-02-2003, 11:15 PM

To see a cartoon animation of a rotary go to http://www.howstuffworks.com . As for the horspower rating, yes it is down. Go to caranddriver.com to read about, but the 0-60 times are the same, so whats the big deal?

madsenj37 · 10-02-2003, 11:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kris
I actually do think it's a big deal that mazda stretched their horsepower numbers. All the other major car manufacturers are very conservative giving out horsepower numbers. Hopefully, Mazda learned their lesson this time around and their engines wont explode. Now that Ford owns a good chunk of Mazda I'll be suprise if the rx-8s will last any longer then the rx-7s. Personally, I think there is too much hype with this car, especially with their past record. I would definitely choose the 350z over it.

Have you even driven one? It is not like the Z because it is made to be smooth all around. Its fits four people in it. It is what has been termed a gentlemans sports car. As for the ford comment, ford owns 30% of mazda. they have nothing to do with the rx-8.

Peryn · 10-03-2003, 07:27 AM

im pretty sure the Japanese version of teh 8 has the full 247 HP. it got dropped to make it conform with the American emissions laws, and it dropped in power. All the 1/4, 0-60, and all other performance numbers are the same though, since those are tested by other companies AFTER production of teh car.

As for too much hype, take a look at the STi and the EVO. There's too much hype for ya... But also take a look at their sales records. The dealers here had sold their entire first shipment (even what would be the floor model) before it had even been shipped. They then got a second shipment that was sold out (a floor model and one or two extras for the lot to look good excluded) before a single commercial aired. So, having the dealers sell out before any advertising had begun....doens't sound like all that much hype to me

Scorps · 10-03-2003, 08:59 AM

merkerguitars · 10-03-2003, 02:00 PM

A mechanic I know was saying a problem with the older Mazda rotary engines where that once you over heated the slightest bit to long your screwed. And also you have to crank them for over 30 seconds just to get them to start in the winter.

Peryn · 10-03-2003, 02:34 PM

Rotraies naturally run pretty hot. And they do take a little while longer to start in the winter, but living in southern CA, there isn't too much winter to speak of... As for overheating, yeah,....you cant let them unless you want a new motor. Of course, they really aren't too much different in that regard to any of the all aluminum blocks around today when you stop and think about it.

Jonny123 · 10-03-2003, 02:44 PM

Certainly iss a beatuiful car, and I totally hear what people are saying about "you have to see it in person." But then again, pictures can hardly do any car justice...

I'm still not sure if I like this better than the last gen..the 7 was just perfect in my mind.

Scorps · 10-04-2003, 09:12 AM

So the V8's are still the best engine.

madsenj37 · 10-04-2003, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pain Train
So the V8's are still the best engine.

Mazda was given the"Engine of the year" award for its new rotary engine, the Renesis. As far as traditional engines are concerned though an inline six is the best for most applications.

Peryn · 10-04-2003, 04:47 PM

i believe Mazda also got banned with its 4-rotor engine from teh 24 hours of LeMans because of the awesomeness of the engine.

Scorps · 10-05-2003, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by madsenj37
Mazda was given the"Engine of the year" award for its new rotary engine, the Renesis. As far as traditional engines are concerned though an inline six is the best for most applications.

Well im a V8 fan...every car I will ever own is going to have the Small Block Chevy V8 and rear wheel drive.

Peryn · 10-05-2003, 03:11 PM

v8's can be awesome machines. But as for power, weight, and size, the rotary has no equal yet. In some applications, a v8 may be more desiriable, but by no means is it "still teh best engine".

T-Prime · 10-05-2003, 05:49 PM

For raw, pure power, go V8.

For conservative, efficient power, go Rotary.

bunni · 10-05-2003, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by T-Prime
For raw, pure power, go V8.

For conservative, efficient power, go Rotary.

I chose raw and efficient, turboed flat 4.

I've heard nothing but bad news from new rx-8 owners. Mazda has been forced to buy back 04 models because the performance has been such a disappointment. I like Mazda's, I like rotaries, someone just really fucked up on this one. Rotaries really lack torque, why you wouldn't turbo a rotary sports car is beyond me... Here's a dyno plot...

Scorps · 10-06-2003, 08:02 AM

Ya it did rox but the they had to goven it and that fucked it all up.

vector_1979 · 10-06-2003, 08:49 AM

I'm new to the whole rotarty engine idea.

1.3l engine weighing about 100kg and over 210BHP. That is amazing!

The RX-8 looks stunning. I would even say more stunning than an Aston Martin DB7! :-s

Peryn · 10-06-2003, 08:55 AM

im not sure what mods are being done to the renesis, but i can only imagine....

As for the old 13b, its not too uncommon to turbo that sucker to 500HP or more, with some having 600+. All that on a 250lb (with turbo piping) engine the length of a 3 cyl, or small 4 cyl. And since the shaft comes out the middle of the engine or thereabouts, its very low to the ground. Small, light, low CG engine making v10 power. Thats always impressive. Give it time, and the tuners for teh renesis should hopefully have some very impressive results. Once they start porting and turbo'ing, i want to see just how much potential this engine has...

madsenj37 · 10-06-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bunni
Mazda has been forced to buy back 04 models because the performance has been such a disappointment. . . . . Rotaries really lack torque, why you wouldn't turbo a rotary sports car is beyond me...

First of all, they were not forced to buy them back, Mazda felt it was a good way to keep customers. The reason was horsepower was down 10 due to environmental tweaks. Roataries lack torque? 160 lbs from a 1.3 liter is not lacking my friend. Look at an acura rsx with 160 lbs of torque ... it is a 2.0 liter. Or take a look at hondas s2000 with its 153 lbs or torque from a 2.0 liter engine. I believe the rotary is quite impressive next to engines of greater size. They did not turbo the rotary for at least two reasons. A turbo would have made the car more expensive, missing the price range they were aiming for. Secondly, the twin turbo rx-7 and the rx-8 are very close in terms of performance. The rx-8s get better gas mileage when they are not turboed which is a third consideration mazda had.

madsenj37 · 10-06-2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vector_1979
I'm new to the whole rotarty engine idea.

1.3l engine weighing about 100kg and over 210BHP. That is amazing!

The RX-8 looks stunning. I would even say more stunning than an Aston Martin DB7! :-s

Not to be nit picky but the six speed makes 238 hp from 1.3 liter and 159 lb of torque, making it more impressive.

stingc · 10-06-2003, 02:19 PM

Why do people make hp/displacement arguments? While it is intellectually interesting that a 1.3 L engine has such a high specific output, it is meaningless in the real world unless it can be (and is) scaled up. NA 5+ L beats NA 1.3 L regardless of technology. What matters is how a car drives. If nobody told you the car was 1.3 L, you wouldn't know it. 170 rwhp is respectable, but does not stand out among today's cars.

I think that one of reasons the last gen RX-7 did so well was because it was turbocharged. One of its main selling points was that people could crank up the power immensely with very little cost. That will not be true for this engine.

10-01-2003, 11:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
madsenj37 Still searching... Location: NorCal For Life	RX-8 - Return of the rotary What are your impressions of the rx-8? Have you seen pictures, seen in it person, maybe even driven it? As for pictures, I was not impressed. Once I saw it in person I was impressed. Once I drove it I fell in love. __________________ "Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

10-02-2003, 03:27 AM	#2 (permalink)
Magpie0001 Nobody Loves Me Location: Irish In Madrid	Pictures are your friend. __________________ Music is my first love & It will be my last.

10-02-2003, 08:14 AM	#3 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	I'm going nuts trying to find a copy of the RX-8 TV commercial with the cutaway of the rotary engine, but can't find it anywhere. If anyone has a copy, I'd be very appreciative. __________________ Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

10-02-2003, 10:29 AM	#5 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	i LOVE the rotary engine. You can pretty much forget what it looks like and ill probably like that car. The rx-8 i think looks nice in the pics, though the proportions never seemed quite right. See it in person and you will fall in love. it is an absolutely gorgeous car. Fun, sporty, and yet more practical for those that have more going on in their life (i.e family or the wife...). You want a copy of that movie with the engine revving up or just a picture of it? __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

10-02-2003, 10:39 AM	#6 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	I'm really not a car guy, so excuse the dumb question. What difference does a rotary engine make? If I were driving the car, how would I know it was rotary? __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

10-02-2003, 10:40 AM	#7 (permalink)
Serpent Insane Location: florida	From what i've heard its down on horsepower from what mazda claims.. And that mazda is recalling all the cars for peoples money back if they wish. And if they don't want to return it they get some cash back or something..

10-02-2003, 10:40 AM	#8 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	well i hadnt seen one before so i looked em up... looks damn sweet... and the "renesis" rotary engine they got in it sounds like a great engine... i think i know what my next car is gonna be __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

10-02-2003, 11:13 AM	#9 (permalink)
wrongfullyaccuzd Addict Location: NoVA	a friend of mine has driven one and he is still choosing a 98 rx-7 over it.

10-02-2003, 12:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	a 98 RX-7. uhhh....does he live in Japan? The last rx7 we got here was a 95. RX-8 is also a slightly different class than teh 7. 4 doors, 4 seats, kinda heavier, less HP than teh Turbo FD. Its more for the rx7 fans that have grown up and need a more "adult" or family car. There are still rumors mazda is spreading about a possible comeback of the rx7 depending on how well teh rotary and 8 take off here. And yes, once you press the pedal in a rotary you know its something unique. Its a totally different feel from any piston engine i've ever felt. As for less power, they were down 9 HP or so from the factory claims. The factory took its numbers from a pre-production prototype. A minor change was made that dropped power a little. They are offering a buyback or 500 dollars and some extra maintenance for free. a pretty good deal for 9 horsepower. __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

10-02-2003, 12:31 PM	#11 (permalink)
FastShark85 Psycho Location: In the garage, under the car.	The rotary engine is smooth and can rev much higher. I recall seeing an article several weeks ago where Mazda admitted that the RX-8 has less-than-advertised HP because of last minute emission control adjustments. They offered to buy back every model already sold. Anyone have a link to an article about this? Last edited by FastShark85; 10-02-2003 at 12:38 PM..

10-02-2003, 12:37 PM	#12 (permalink)
WarWagon Loser	redlemon, the rotary motor does not use pistons, but rather, it use a or several triangular rotors in their place. They rev very quickly and smoothly, and the motors themselves are quiet, which is why several models used a buzzer to indicate the redline. Their low end performance is poor, but they have awesome top end.

10-02-2003, 01:11 PM	#13 (permalink)
Redlemon Devoted Donor Location: New England	Interesting, thanks WW/FS/Py! __________________ I can't read your signature. Sorry.

10-02-2003, 01:17 PM	#14 (permalink)
punx1325 Junkie Location: San Diego	I have heard that the rotary engine is expensive to repair, because parts are so rare. That's just something to think about down the road. I do love the car, I just wish it had a little more horsepower. __________________ If something seems too good to be true, then it probably is....

10-02-2003, 01:21 PM	#15 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	Its expensive to repair, not because of parts so much, but because of a lack of qualified technicians. I wouldn't even trust most mazda techs. Very few people know what a rotary is, let alone how to work on it. The engine also only has a dozen or so moving (or stationary for that matter) moving parts. It is an incredibly lightweight, small, simple design, so there isn't too many parts that can break or cause problems. __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

10-02-2003, 06:22 PM	#17 (permalink)
etardedraverboy Insane Location: portland the land of liquid sun shine	ill take 1 who wants to give it to me __________________ vvvvvvvvrrrrrrrrrrroooooooooooooooooooooommmmmm

10-03-2003, 08:59 AM	#24 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario

10-02-2003, 08:29 PM	#19 (permalink)
kris Upright Location: Potomac, Maryland	I actually do think it's a big deal that mazda stretched their horsepower numbers. All the other major car manufacturers are very conservative giving out horsepower numbers. Hopefully, Mazda learned their lesson this time around and their engines wont explode. Now that Ford owns a good chunk of Mazda I'll be suprise if the rx-8s will last any longer then the rx-7s. Personally, I think there is too much hype with this car, especially with their past record. I would definitely choose the 350z over it.

10-02-2003, 09:02 PM	#20 (permalink)
Pragma I am Winter Born Location: Alexandria, VA	It's not like they stretched the HP numbers on purpose. As they said, they got a certain HP rating with the pre-production model and (if memory serves) changed a part between pre-production and production and never ran the HP test again. Something with changing a part dropped the HP rating. I don't believe that Mazda intended to fool the public, as that would have very easily backfired if people went to the press with this before Mazda. __________________ Eat antimatter, Posleen-boy!

10-02-2003, 11:15 PM	#21 (permalink)
madsenj37 Still searching... Location: NorCal For Life	To see a cartoon animation of a rotary go to http://www.howstuffworks.com . As for the horspower rating, yes it is down. Go to caranddriver.com to read about, but the 0-60 times are the same, so whats the big deal? __________________ "Only two things are certain: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not certain about the universe." -- Albert Einstein

10-03-2003, 07:27 AM	#23 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	im pretty sure the Japanese version of teh 8 has the full 247 HP. it got dropped to make it conform with the American emissions laws, and it dropped in power. All the 1/4, 0-60, and all other performance numbers are the same though, since those are tested by other companies AFTER production of teh car. As for too much hype, take a look at the STi and the EVO. There's too much hype for ya... But also take a look at their sales records. The dealers here had sold their entire first shipment (even what would be the floor model) before it had even been shipped. They then got a second shipment that was sold out (a floor model and one or two extras for the lot to look good excluded) before a single commercial aired. So, having the dealers sell out before any advertising had begun....doens't sound like all that much hype to me __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

10-03-2003, 02:00 PM	#25 (permalink)
merkerguitars Buffering......... Location: Wisconsin...	A mechanic I know was saying a problem with the older Mazda rotary engines where that once you over heated the slightest bit to long your screwed. And also you have to crank them for over 30 seconds just to get them to start in the winter. __________________ Donate now! Ask me How! Please use the search function it is your friend. Look at my mustang please feel free to comment! http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=26985

10-03-2003, 02:34 PM	#26 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	Rotraies naturally run pretty hot. And they do take a little while longer to start in the winter, but living in southern CA, there isn't too much winter to speak of... As for overheating, yeah,....you cant let them unless you want a new motor. Of course, they really aren't too much different in that regard to any of the all aluminum blocks around today when you stop and think about it. __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

10-03-2003, 02:44 PM	#27 (permalink)
Jonny123 Upright	Certainly iss a beatuiful car, and I totally hear what people are saying about "you have to see it in person." But then again, pictures can hardly do any car justice... I'm still not sure if I like this better than the last gen..the 7 was just perfect in my mind.

10-04-2003, 09:12 AM	#28 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario	So the V8's are still the best engine. __________________ A.K.A. PainTrain

10-04-2003, 04:47 PM	#30 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	i believe Mazda also got banned with its 4-rotor engine from teh 24 hours of LeMans because of the awesomeness of the engine. __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

10-05-2003, 03:11 PM	#32 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	v8's can be awesome machines. But as for power, weight, and size, the rotary has no equal yet. In some applications, a v8 may be more desiriable, but by no means is it "still teh best engine". __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

10-05-2003, 05:49 PM	#33 (permalink)
T-Prime Banned	For raw, pure power, go V8. For conservative, efficient power, go Rotary.

10-06-2003, 08:02 AM	#35 (permalink)
Scorps Lost!! Location: Kingston, Ontario	Ya it did rox but the they had to goven it and that fucked it all up. __________________ A.K.A. PainTrain

10-06-2003, 08:49 AM	#36 (permalink)
vector_1979 Insane Location: In a Caddy Shack	I'm new to the whole rotarty engine idea. 1.3l engine weighing about 100kg and over 210BHP. That is amazing! The RX-8 looks stunning. I would even say more stunning than an Aston Martin DB7! :-s __________________ ------------------------------------------------ Tip: Never do your shoe lace up in a revolving door

10-06-2003, 08:55 AM	#37 (permalink)
Peryn Junkie Location: San Diego, CA.	im not sure what mods are being done to the renesis, but i can only imagine.... As for the old 13b, its not too uncommon to turbo that sucker to 500HP or more, with some having 600+. All that on a 250lb (with turbo piping) engine the length of a 3 cyl, or small 4 cyl. And since the shaft comes out the middle of the engine or thereabouts, its very low to the ground. Small, light, low CG engine making v10 power. Thats always impressive. Give it time, and the tuners for teh renesis should hopefully have some very impressive results. Once they start porting and turbo'ing, i want to see just how much potential this engine has... __________________ Dont cry kid, It's not your fault you suck.

10-06-2003, 02:19 PM	#40 (permalink)
stingc Psycho Location: PA	Why do people make hp/displacement arguments? While it is intellectually interesting that a 1.3 L engine has such a high specific output, it is meaningless in the real world unless it can be (and is) scaled up. NA 5+ L beats NA 1.3 L regardless of technology. What matters is how a car drives. If nobody told you the car was 1.3 L, you wouldn't know it. 170 rwhp is respectable, but does not stand out among today's cars. I think that one of reasons the last gen RX-7 did so well was because it was turbocharged. One of its main selling points was that people could crank up the power immensely with very little cost. That will not be true for this engine.