StellaLuna

Hey guys! I feel like a new kid who got lost on her way to the bathroom, but I really need some assistance here. My baby is a 2005 Subaru Impreza AWD wagon, 2.5 L SOHC, automatic, no mods, about 44000 miles. The check engine light went on (some time ago, really, it's been well over a month now) and the cruise control light flashes and there's no cruise control. From what I understand, the cruise control won't work as long as the CEL is on. We got the code pulled and it's a P2097, post-cat converter O2 mixture too rich. I've checked the prices and the damn sensor is about $379. The shop refuses to put on anything I buy myself and won't use Bosch or Walker parts because he says they'll "crap out after 3 months"-- they're quoting me $550 for the sensor alone, because apparently it's made of gold or will give me spontaneous orgasms or make the car fly or some other reason that it should be that much more expensive.
So, questions:
1. "Crap out after 3 months"? Is that true? I'm of the opinion that if they're still in business, Bosch and Walker can't be making such shitty parts that they would crap out after 3 months. Is there any reason why I shouldn't buy the sensor myself and find a mechanic who isn't a total ass to put it on?
2. My car doesn't have a Haynes or Chilton manual, otherwise I'd be tempted to buy one and put the sensor on myself. Any other suggestions about where to get a tech manual for this car? Subaru has some listed on the website, but you have to purchase a PDF which means I can't even see if it's the info I need before I buy it.
3. If I find the technical manual and my Dad is kind enough to get me a sensor (he's awesome), would it be a huge scary thing to attach? And how would I get the CEL light to go away?

Thanks, guys! If I'm missing info, let me know.

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m5man

Post cat richness means your cat is bad and is covered by an 8yr/80k warranty. But first, have a shop with a computer scanner look at your upstream (before cat) O2 sensor reading to see if the problem is there and the cat can't clean up the over-rich mixture. The after cat O2 sensor is just reporting what it is seeing and is not bad.

smoore

Correct correct! The sensor needs to be removed and the shop has a "known good" sensor attached to that big magic box that all new cars need to be fixed. Some troubleshooting needs to be done before parts are purchased... especially $400 parts.

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smoore

Ilow

While I will certainly defer to the guys who know the codes, I will also add that telling you that a part will "crap out after 3 months" sounds quite suspicious, especially when the alternatives are from reputable companies, and his costs considerably more. As an aside, I would certainly pay for the $500 part if it made the car fly or gave me spontaneous orgasms!

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Zweiblumen

I had a Subaru and loved it, one thing about the Subaru's is that it should only be taken to shops that know (specialize in) Subaru. I found out the hard way.
Second thing, I would question any mechanic that puts Bosch down.

Just my $.02

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laconic1

I have to say $379 for a oxygen sensor sounds excessive. Generally OEM oxygen sensors run between $100 and $175, although I've seen a few that go up to about $225.00. I've never seen one go for more than that though. The Bosch o2 sensors in my car have been working just fine for the past 2 years. The $170 they are charging for labor sounds reasonable, but on the high end of reasonable. Honestly though it sounds like they are trying to make a bundle on the part and that is why they don't want to use something else. If you can get the subaru part number I'll look up Subarus suggested retail price at work on Monday.

StellaLuna

So what I'm understanding I need to do:
Take it to a shop- maybe even my Subaru shop (shudder)- and ask them to check the post cat sensor, pre cat sensor, and the converter itself. They shouldn't charge me for that, right? From what I understand by reading the warranty, if the converter is shot, that's covered. And the sensor should be covered at that point too, if it's part of that broken system?

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laconic1

Well if it ends up not being under warranty they will charge you for diagnosis (generally most shops charge either 1/2 hour or 1 hour for diagnosis, most shops labor rates are generally between $90 and $110 per hour, maybe more, maybe less depending on the area) since I don't know of anyone that works for free.

I'm no expert though but it seems unlikely that it would need both a catalytic converter and a o2 sensor. A lot of times when the catalytic converter fails the code set will be for catalyst inefficiency. In that case usually you just need to replace the catalytic converter and the o2 is fine. But the thing about trouble codes is that they note that there is a problem, but the thing that set the code may not necessarily be the problem. There are a lot of times the thing that set the code is the problem but not always. That's where a lot of shops that indiscriminately throw parts at cars run into problems, and being able to figure out the difference between those cases is what separates a good mechanic from a bad one.

lotsofmagnets

having been around the car industry for a solid 15 years i would 2nd this sentiment. although check where the part is made as bosch now frequently make parts in other countries now and quality *may* be becomming an issue bt having said that bosch parts are among the best out there. sounds a bit like someone could be being taken for a ride...

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physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

laconic1

Well I looked on Alldata at work today and sure enough, it shows the catalyst monitoring o2 sensor for that vehicle having a MSRP of about $350.00. Crazy, I've never seen one that high.

Daniel_

Send a man in with the car, and see if he gets a better price!

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J.R.V.A.

Well... I have been working on cars since I was 17...I have ben working on the OBD 2 computer systems since 95, required on all autos sold in U.S. Since 1996. Just when I think I have these figured out, a new twist arises...On thing I have learned though is this... A code sometimes will be set for no problem at all...Really...Just for the simple fact that sometimes a signal was sent to the computer that was out of range...So I have learned to not jump to conclusions right away. I would suggest that you first... Check and change the air filter.. fill your car with premium gas, and a bottle of quality fuel injector cleaner, and Since i don't know where you are from, here in Utah we have Auto Zone...The place to go for some inexpensive advice...Or a place like Them..They will hook up your car to their hand held computer reader, and will erase the code for you for free...Then drive your car again...if your light does not come on again after a couple weeks, problem solved...If it does, I would suggest going to a Subaru dealer, or a highly recommended Subaru repair shop that knows Subaru's.

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JustJess

Don't disregard the idea of going to the dealer. Q and his family have owned Subarus for YEARS and they have mostly been extremely reliable as long as you keep up with maintenance. This mechanic sounds like he's full of shit. Trust your instincts... if they say he's full of it, he probably is. Check out the dealer, and discuss all options before allowing them to touch the car so you know what and how much they'll be charging you.

Also, there's a lot to be said for going in acting Very Confident - not bitchy, just like someone who knows what's what. Doing your research will be helpful, even if it bores you to pieces. Know what they're talking about and they'll be less likely to treat you like an idiot, and thus bullshit you. You being a cute gal of small stature is unfortunately a negative in cases like this (stereotypes suck but exist for a reason... ). So being more pro-active will only help you.

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QuasiMondo

Go to another mechanic. Bosch sensors are reliable, and even if they did crap out, it should be under warranty from where you bought it.

Go to nasioc.com, they can help you out with technical info. They should know exactly how to remove the oxygen sensor. Just be sure to coat the threads of the new sensor with anti-sieze compound.

Clearing the CEL should be as easy as disconnecting the battery for 30 seconds to clear the ECU.

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reconmike

Bosch electronics have been going downhill for the last few years, just ask any Benz, Bmw, VW or Audi owner about check engine lights and their mass air flow sensors.
Put a bosch O2 sensor in a Honda see how fast the cel comes on.
I wont use them in my shop, if aftermarket is reasonable I'll buy Denso.

On your Subaru, there is a bulletin from Subaru for code po2097, they are changing the upstream air/fuel ratio sensor, (like an O2 sensor) and reprograming the computer. The reprograming will have to be done at the dealer, so best advice is bite the bullet and go to Subaru to have the work done.

On a side note, if I could install spontaneous orgasms I would be rich and loved all over town.

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StellaLuna

Yikes. The thing I'm scared of is taking it in at all... Broke girl is broke. My dad said he'd buy the sensor for me, and he may very well foot the bill to have it taken care of at the dealership. I guess it's something I need to just suck it up and deal with. Yikes.

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grumpyolddude

Stella, I sell sensors from many vendors with good results. That post cat sensor is on the market here in SE Michigan from Nippon Denso (excellent track record for quality). The part number is 234-4732, list price $168.32 USD, I sell it for $109.99. Even a price gouger shouldn't get more that $220.

I'd like to echo the previous sentiments, though. Don't spend a dime on parts based on a trouble code. Many issues could produce that code, and they need to be investigated, or you're just throwing your money away.

and... sorry, but my spontaneous orgasmatron is on permanent loan to QW (and she doesn't like sharing... dammit!)

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